If med schools did this, I'd bet they produce better doctors

[1Path]

So you preemtively added it to my post? You are really sensitive!

But there are a lot of trolls on SDN - not too hard to get called one.

Yeah, I think YOU may want to work on YOUR reading comprehension

Hmm you're a troll. But I'll bite.

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[Meatwad]

Shadowing a doctor who serves the poor is about many things including teaching compassion for those who are less fortunate. Not learning medical procedures. That's what med school/residency is for.

True, but that is exactly why it shouldn't be required. If it becomes a requirement, it will become nothing more than the MCAT or research is; something necessary to gain admission. You can't force someone to become compassionate.

 

[alwaysaangel]

Yeah, I think YOU may want to work on YOUR reading comprehension

Yeah but you're using whats there now. I edited it. Even in your quote you only have my original post. And when I finally submitted my edit your post was already there. So you are claiming that your midol comment was because of me calling you a troll, but when you made that comment the troll part wasn't there yet. Thats my point.

Can I prove it? No.

Do I care to? No.

 

[pennybridge]

Where are you getting your information from? It seemslike this is coming from the top of your head. So instead of working their busy making babies and that MD degree is somewhere in their closet collecting dust.

You can't have your kids before 30. And your speaking from experience?

As for me I've got no problem with Female Doctors. I mean who would I got to if I needed a Rectal Exam? The last thing I want is a guy sticking his finger up my Anus.

because women have more slender fingers?

seriously though, nothing screams "insecure" so much as considering a rectal exam a "homosexual experience"

now if you're talking just in general about paying women to stick one up the ole poop chute, just remember: no glove no love baby!

 

[Davjc2009]

that doesn't sound gay at all....

And what if I am gay? You got a problem with it?

 

[1Path]

Where are you getting your information from? It seemslike this is coming from the top of your head. So instead of working their busy making babies and that MD degree is somewhere in their closet collecting dust.:

Try Mommd. And with that, I'll rest my case.

You can't have your kids before 30. And your speaking from experience?:

Some folks are OK with the baby out of wed lock thing, to which I say whatever floats your boat. But I waited until I was married at 29, so yeah I couldn't have kids before 30.

As for me I've got no problem with Female Doctors. I mean who would I got to if I needed a Rectal Exam? The last thing I want is a guy sticking his finger up my Anus.

You MUST be single.

 

[pennybridge]

And what if I am gay? You got a problem with it?

did drinking gallons upon gallons of milk make you gay?

 

[Davjc2009]

did drinking gallons upon gallons of milk make you gay?

No, you ass.

 

[crimsonkid85]

Life experience not only makes you a better doctor, if you use the experiences wisely, it makes you a better human being. IMHO, it's about being able to relate somewhat to what people are dealing with.
Shadowing a doctor who serves the poor is about many things including teaching compassion for those who are less fortunate. Not learning medical procedures. That's what med school/residency is for.

life experiences make you a better human being, this i agree with. however, i stand by my statement that the best healers are those with the most vast medical experience. if it's about "being able to relate somewhat to the people you are dealing with," nothing will allow you to relate more than spending TIME with these people. becoming a physician as early as possible will allow you the most time in your career to gain such experience with patients.

I wasn't trying to say that there are no benefits to shadowing a doctor. (Although, one med school interviewer told me point blank that he thought shadowing was just bull**** worthless...) Just as you said, I do believe that there are things to be gained in shadowing. But what's wrong with gaining that experience AS you are training to be a physician?

Moreover, not all physicians engage in patient care. There are huge numbers of academic physicians out there. WRT them, I definately don't think a later age is better. As Olaf Anderson (MSTP director at cornell) said, the best years for turning out great research is when you are in your 30s and 40s. if you're still in school during that time....you're wasting your talent.

 

[pennybridge]

No, you ass.

you know how I know you're gay? you drink milk.

 

[crimsonkid85]

you know how I know you're gay? you drink milk.

WHAT?! i must be missing something...

 

[Davjc2009]

you know how I know you're gay? you drink milk.

Way to be an intolerant dingus.


I feel bad for your future patients, if you ever have any.

 

[pennybridge]

I feel bad for your future patients, if you ever have any.

lol that's like the Godwin's Law of SDN

just call me Hitler already!

 

[1Path]

As Olaf Anderson (MSTP director at cornell) said, the best years for turning out great research is when you are in your 30s and 40s. if you're still in school during that time....you're wasting your talent.

Well I guess I'm glad I won't be applying to Cornell but I'll be sure to spread the word if in fact he did say something so stupid.

People don't stop contributing to their careers when they reach some magical age, excluding medical factors. I say that the best time for turing out great research is dependant on too many subjective factors like whose a$$ you kiss for it to be any reliable measure of "success".

 

[crimsonkid85]

Well I guess I'm glad I won't be applying to Cornell but I'll be sure to spread the word if in fact he did say something so stupid.

People don't stop contributing to their careers when they reach some magical age, excluding medical factors. I say that the best time for turing out great research is dependant on too many subjective factors like whose a$$ you kiss for it to be any reliable measure of "success".

fine, but what about my other points?

 

[Davjc2009]

lol that's like the Godwin's Law of SDN

just call me Hitler already!

At least Hitler had influence.

What do you have?

You've got a computer. Bet you feel all big and bad don't you?

 

[QofQuimica]

Guys and gals, we've gotten some complaints about this thread. Please keep things civil.

 

[pennybridge]

At least Hitler had influence.

What do you have?

You've got a computer. Bet you feel all big and bad don't you?

I've got about 10 gallons of milk in the fridge...

 

[1Path]

life experiences make you a better human being, this i agree with. however, i stand by my statement that the best healers are those with the most vast medical experience

Have you ever met a nasty oncologist? Let me rephrase that, has anyone you're close to been in the care of a nasty oncologist? Vast medical experience doesn't mean jack **** if the "experienced one" is a caregivers nightmare.

Again, as you get older, more **** starts happening in your life, which creats experiences you can draw on in the future.

So I can say with certainity that in 10 or so years, your requirement for vast medical experience will be GREATLY ammended to include less tangible characteristics.

 

[Davjc2009]

I've got about 10 gallons of milk in the fridge...

Guess that makes you gay doesn't it, at least according to your logic?

 

[1Path]

Guys and gals, we've gotten some complaints about this thread. Please keep things civil.

I think the point of folks talking about things like sexual orientation is for the specific purpose of getting the thread closed. Why not just delete posts about milk and gayness instead, so the rest of us can continue to discuss.

This actually brings up a good point. Perhaps the homophobic would be unwilling to be in the inner city lwhere there's a disproportionate amount of HIV in some communities, leaving medicine for the rest of us.

Better yet, why not just ban to homophobic ****

 

[QofQuimica]

I think the point of folks talking about things like sexual orientation is for the specific purpose of getting the thread closed. Why not just delete posts about milk and gayness instead, so the rest of us can continue to discuss.

Because there are like 80 posts now, and I'd need to go through and individually delete all of the offensive ones. Pennybridge and Davjc, please just put each other on ignore if you can't get along. I'm about to infract the whole lot of you.

 

[IWant2BeADoctor]

because women have more slender fingers?

seriously though, nothing screams "insecure" so much as considering a rectal exam a "homosexual experience"

now if you're talking just in general about paying women to stick one up the ole poop chute, just remember: no glove no love baby!

If being afraid of a guy sticking a finger up your Anus is an being "insecure" I'd hate to know what being secure is all about.

I just don't want this to happen to me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZH79fVZU2k

 

[notdeadyet]

Life experience not only makes you a better doctor, if you use the experiences wisely, it makes you a better human being. IMHO, it's about being able to relate somewhat to what people are dealing with.

i demand sources supporting this wild claim!

Unfortunately, age and the nastiness that comes with it is the only way you'll verify. You'll find that most folks do not complain that their doctor isn't smart enough or doesn't know his/her $hit. But many people complain about their doctor's lack of people skills. Living in the real world and working for a living gives you all sorts of insights into how the rest of the world works/lives which will be helpful to your patients.

That said, I disagree with the notion of 25 as an entry age because I know some folks who make it to 25 with no real life experience either. I would like to see a requirement (or at least strong preference) for folks who have demonstrated that they've lived and worked amongst their future patients, whether as teachers, in the military, for NGOs, EMTs, or whatever. I'd love a requirement that applicants spend one year in the real world without loan or parental support.

But I wouldn't make an arbitrary 25 cut off any more than an arbitrary 30/3.6 cut off. The numbers mean very little.

 

[Law2Doc]

He was MD/PhD - he will be 17/18 before he ever gets to rotations.

At most places you learn the pelvic exam before rotations.

 

[1Path]

I would like to see a requirement (or at least strong preference) for folks who have demonstrated that they've lived and worked amongst their future patients, whether as teachers, in the military, for NGOs, EMTs, or whatever. .

Yep, I like that!

I'd love a requirement that applicants spend one year in the real world without loan or parental support..

You do realize that ~75% of EVERY medical school class would suddently disappear.
But I gotta agree, GREAT point!

 

[IWant2BeADoctor]

you know how I know you're gay? you drink milk.

That doesn't make sense. You know someone's gay when they have a milk mustache and they don't drink milk!

 

[pennybridge]

I'm about to infract the whole lot of you.

wouldn't be the first time I got an "infraction" because some kid with a persecution complex and lacking reading comprehension skills misinterprets a joke.

infract away dear leader!

 

[QofQuimica]

Unfortunately, age and the nastiness that comes with it is the only way you'll verify. You'll find that most folks do not complain that their doctor isn't smart enough or doesn't know his/her $hit. But many people complain about their doctor's lack of people skills. Living in the real world and working for a living gives you all sorts of insights into how the rest of the world works/lives which will be helpful to your patients.

That said, I disagree with the notion of 25 as an entry age because I know some folks who make it to 25 with no real life experience either. I would like to see a requirement (or at least strong preference) for folks who have demonstrated that they've lived and worked amongst their future patients, whether as teachers, in the military, for NGOs, EMTs, or whatever. I'd love a requirement that applicants spend one year in the real world without loan or parental support.

But I wouldn't make an arbitrary 25 cut off any more than an arbitrary 30/3.6 cut off. The numbers mean very little.

How about this idea: make pre-meds work for a year or two as a nurse. That way, we'd kill two birds with one stone: get experience working with people in a clinical setting, and help reduce the nursing shortage.

 

[pennybridge]

That doesn't make sense. You know someone's gay when they have a milk mustache and they don't drink milk!

hey now. there's no jokes allowed in this forum. this forum is for serious business! Also if you're not gay you can't make gay jokes. It's a rule.

 

[1Path]

How about this idea: make pre-meds work for a year or two as a nurse. That way, we'd kill two birds with one stone: get experience working with people in a clinical setting, and help reduce the nursing shortage.

Then I'd be out of the running. Nursing requires a certain something that I don't have.

 

[pennybridge]

Then I'd be out of the running. Nursing requires a certain something that I don't have.

ovaries?


man I can't stop myself.

 

[crimsonkid85]

Have you ever met a nasty oncologist? Let me rephrase that, has anyone you're close to been in the care of a nasty oncologist? Vast medical experience doesn't mean jack **** if the "experienced one" is a caregivers nightmare.

Again, as you get older, more **** starts happening in your life, which creats experiences you can draw on in the future.

So I can say with certainity that in 10 or so years, your requirement for vast medical experience will be GREATLY ammended to include less tangible characteristics.

yes as a matter i have met a nasty oncologist. he was awful towards me during my med school interviews. later i found out that he was super nice to his patients. maybe he used up all his 'niceness' on his patients and didn't have any left for healthy people.

that being said, i'll take the competent dingus anyday over the incompetent angel. and there are plenty of incompetent, touchy-feely, i want to make you feel good about being sick doctors out there. if anything, they need to make the intellectual standards more rigorous for incoming physicians.

 

[deleted128318]

Guess that makes you gay doesn't it, at least according to your logic?

Only if it's that pink strawberry milk. Man, that stuff is...

Nevermind.

 

[crimsonkid85]

You'll find that most folks do not complain that their doctor isn't smart enough or doesn't know his/her $hit.

that's because most people don't know enough about medicine to complain! have you ever talked to scientists who go see incompetent doctors? it's amazing how knowing a little bit of science can make the doctor look stupid. the kind of things some doctors prescribe for certain symptoms is just ******ed. remember university health services?

 

[IWant2BeADoctor]

Try Mommd. And with that, I'll rest my case.
Some folks are OK with the baby out of wed lock thing, to which I say whatever floats your boat. But I waited until I was married at 29, so yeah I couldn't have kids before 30.
You MUST be single.

Someone's old fashioned. What were you a Preacher's daughter? Yep single and for the better. Love and relationships are just too damned time consuming?

Then I'd be out of the running. Nursing requires a certain something that I don't have.

I'm going to guess, breasts, vagina, or uterus. No big deal there's plenty of male nurses out there. Isn't it about time we break instead of buy into Stereotypes.

 

[pennybridge]

remember university health services?

god seriously.

Level of competency (decreasing) --> prestigious private hospital, teaching hospital, student run free clinic, back alley abortionist, Kaiser, University health services

 

[pennybridge]

I'm going to guess, breasts, vagina, or uterus. No big deal there's plenty of male nurses out there. Isn't it about time we break instead of buy into Stereotypes.

i already made that joke!

 

[OCPreMed]

1) Set a minimum age at matriculation at 25

2) Require a 1 year volunteer experience in a rural or inner city health clinic.

how about making a 30 on the mcat?

sounds just as dumb as the 2 above

 

[IWant2BeADoctor]

i already made that joke!

I wasn't joking. And I'm still wondering what is meant "by something I don't have." Anyways I need to stop posting this is getting too addictive or do I have OCD?

Anyways time to hit the books! I've got finals to study for.

 

[pennybridge]

I wasn't joking. And I'm still wondering what is meant "by something I don't have." Anyways I need to stop posting this is getting too addictive or do I have OCD?

Anyways time to hit the books! I've got finals to study for.

finals!? clearly you are too young to be considering medicine. Why don't you work in a career completely unrelated to medicine for a few years to prove your dedication to medicine!

 

[deleted128318]

finals!? clearly you are too young to be considering medicine. Why don't you work in a career completely unrelated to medicine for a few years to prove your dedication to medicine!

Like dairy-wrestling?

 

[Gut Shot]

How about this idea: make pre-meds work for a year or two as a nurse. That way, we'd kill two birds with one stone: get experience working with people in a clinical setting, and help reduce the nursing shortage.

Sounds too much like Teach For America.

 

[pennybridge]

Like dairy-wrestling?

exactly.


hey, wait a minute...

 

[spicedmanna]

They should make Medical Education more like that of Western Europe. That is letting students start their Medical Education straight out of High School. I don't see why 4 years of undergrad is necessary. And one can hardly argue that Western European system produces inferior Doctors.

Medical training being as long as it is should start as early as possible.

Your suggestion is a moot point because an entire commission and the general public disagree with you. This matter has been studied and our current system of medical education was considered better able to produce the kind of physicians that the public favors. It might be time for another study, however...

 

[Aynsl156]

Like dairy-wrestling?

Hot.

 

[Chinorean]

I totally agree with the OP. All the 25 year olds I know are amazingly wise. Especially the ones who had real jobs (not like working in a lab because I've done that before). In fact I find the older people are, the better they are at decision making. Look at Congress--those people are OLD. They even look old. No wonder why they make such amazing decisions. I wish I had their life experiences so that I could be like them some day. Fortunately I know that some day I, too, will be old and maybe have experienced some things along the way.

I should take my 23-year-old butt out of medical school right now. What a fool I was for thinking I would be a good doctor. I only spent a week on a medical mission, which is not enough to penetrate my robot exterior. God I'm so ashamed. I would cry but I never learned how.

 

[deleted128318]

I totally agree with the OP. All the 25 year olds I know are amazingly wise. Especially the ones who had real jobs (not like working in a lab because I've done that before). In fact I find the older people are, the better they are at decision making. Look at Congress--those people are OLD. They even look old. No wonder why they make such amazing decisions. I wish I had their life experiences so that I could be like them some day. Fortunately I know that some day I, too, will be old and maybe have experienced some things along the way.

I should take my 23-year-old butt out of medical school right now. What a fool I was for thinking I would be a good doctor. I only spent a week on a medical mission, which is not enough to penetrate my robot exterior. God I'm so ashamed. I would cry but I never learned how.

.

 

[xanthomondo]

this thread is fun, i have an idea for a new smiley face:

the popcorn eating smiley!

 

[Trismegistus4]

Allow me to make my own suggestions for producing better doctors:

1) Stop admitting so many women

2) Go back to just taking the smartest people, rather than giving bonus points to those who demonstrate a phony liberal "altruism" by joining the Peace Corps or volunteering in an AIDS clinic or battered women's shelter.