If med schools did this, I'd bet they produce better doctors

[coffeebythelake]

1) Set a minimum age at matriculation at 25

2) Require a 1 year volunteer experience in a rural or inner city health clinic.

And I bet you qualify for both.

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[VaulterGirl]

I wonder what set the OP off to even start this thread? Maybe some young whippersnapper med student set her off

 

[Law2Doc]

Allow me to make my own suggestions for producing better doctors:

1) Stop admitting so many women

2) Go back to just taking the smartest people, rather than giving bonus points to those who demonstrate a phony liberal "altruism" by joining the Peace Corps or volunteering in an AIDS clinic or battered women's shelter.

This was what was initially done in medicine. Go back 40+ years and you will see that med students were basically all male, all bio majors, all with predominantly academic credentials. It didn't work. They were deemed to be less than ideal by the profession, which is more of a service industry than a science. So they changed admissions to fix the problem, ultimately increasing admission of nonsci, nontrad and women applicants. They haven't looked back because the current results are deemed better (with respect to our current system). At the same time patients were being given progressively more "rights" in terms of their medical treatment, privacy, etc. This is predominantly a service industry, and customer opinion matters. Doesn't matter how numerically smart you are if your patients and coworkers dislike you. House would never make it today in reality.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Allow me to make my own suggestions for producing better doctors:

1) Stop admitting so many women

2) Go back to just taking the smartest people, rather than giving bonus points to those who demonstrate a phony liberal "altruism" by joining the Peace Corps or volunteering in an AIDS clinic or battered women's shelter.

I'm very scared that you got admitted to medical school. I'm guessing you didn't share your sexist, racist ideas in your interview.

Trismegistus = SDNer most likely to cause a non-malpractice related lawsuit against a hospital in the future.

 

[pennybridge]

battered women

sounds delicious.

 

[8744]

1) Set a minimum age at matriculation at 25

2) Require a 1 year volunteer experience in a rural or inner city health clinic.

Ooh...Cool idea! That way you can get a running start on despising your patients!

 

[ChildNeuro]

It is too bad that students can't take a year off between third and fourth to clinical work in an underserved area, as a routine elective offering. I am aware that there are some special fellowships, but I bet you have to walk on water to get them. It would only work if these attendings respected the students like fourth years, or even *gasp* interns, i.e. nobody would want to do a third year over, unless it was at really nice hospital environment.

 

[8744]

The underserved? **** 'em. I take care of them every day and there's nothing special about 'em except a lot of them don't understand the mechanics of soap and a washrag.

Come on people. If you come by ambulance I can make allowances but if you wander in for some kind of kootchie rot would it kill you to wipe your ass or scrape some of the cheese out of your blubber? Hell, I brush my teeth before I go to the dentist.

 

[Noeljan]

Although I am entering med school a few years later than right out of undergrad, I don't think it is fair to say that people should HAVE to wait a few years out of undergrad. I have friends younger and older than myself, and everyone offers something unique to the world. Who is to say that a 30 year old has more important experiences than a 23 year old? What do experiences mean anyways? For example, I don't come from a rich background and I can get along with most people. I think personality wise I can contribute that. I also have friends that come from very well off families, it's almost kind of cute to me that they get so much support from their parents. I am sure they can interact well with many patients of backgrounds that they come from as well. You cannot make a rule either way.

 

[pennybridge]

It is too bad that students can't take a year off between third and fourth to clinical work in an underserved area, as a routine elective offering. I am aware that there are some special fellowships, but I bet you have to walk on water to get them. It would only work if these attendings respected the students like fourth years, or even *gasp* interns, i.e. nobody would want to do a third year over, unless it was at really nice hospital environment.

your idea makes no sense. First the term "underserved" means there's little medical access in the first place, how would you be able to rotate someplace with no infrastructure?

second, why would an "underserved" place need third year medical students? Why don't you just do your fourth year, become a real doctor, then go do your residency someplace underserved.

if that's not your cup of tea, go to some fancy pants residency like the rest of SDN plans and then instead of taking that prestigious faculty position or cushy private practice job, go work for peanuts in an underserved community.

you're going to medical school because you want to be a doctor. Be a doctor. You can't be a volunteer soup ladeler, spanish language patient advocate, medicare facilitator, social worker, second grade teacher, and a doctor all at the same time.

Are all of those other jobs great? yes. Are they necessary? most likely. Would the world benefit greatly by you doing them all? No. The world needs more doctors. Be a doctor. hell, be a good doctor.

a year taking histories and maybe doing physical exams after your third year doesn't help your education and doesn't help the patients there. They need more doctors, not more medical techs.

If the underserved is your bag, go to a school that promotes that and has hospitals that cater to those patients. do your rotations there. Besides that, if you want to 'lend a hand' do it while you're in medical school, not instead of. The faster you become a doctor, the faster you can help sick people get better and get back to work.

/rant

 

[pennybridge]

The underserved?

i think there's a fundamental difference between the "underserved" and the "unkempt"

maybe a bit of overlap though

 

[1Path]

I wonder what set the OP off to even start this thread? Maybe some young whippersnapper med student set her off

Highly unlikely that I'd be set off by the Mickey D couch potato nintendo gamyboy generation.

But I certainly do believe medicine would be better off with fewer women.

 

[1Path]

ovaries?


man I can't stop myself.

This is pretty dam sexist. First homophobia, now sexism. I think the future of medicine is in GREAT hands.

And BTW, an OP with cahones isn't always a dude so you might want to stop with the assumptions next time.

Ooh...Cool idea! That way you can get a running start on despising your patients!

I work with inner city patients now and find them a LOT easier to work with than those with the silver porches stuck up their a$$e$.

 

[pennybridge]

Highly unlikely that I'd be set off by the Mickey D couch potato nintendo gamyboy generation.

But I certainly do believe medicine would be better off with fewer women.

yeah you're aged like a fine wine.


wait a second, DAUGHTRY??

 

[Noeljan]

Highly unlikely that I'd be set off by the Mickey D couch potato nintendo gamyboy generation.

But I certainly do believe medicine would be better off with fewer women.

Why do you think medicine would be better off with fewer women? Do you have any ideas of the barriers that women before us had to face to make it possible for us to get here? Have you read any of their stories because I have, and it makes me cry (both tears of sadness and joy).

 

[pennybridge]

And BTW, an OP with cahones isn't always a dude so you might want to stop with the assumptions next time.

examine this for irony, then get back to me, sweetheart.

 

[1Path]

Why do you think medicine would be better off with fewer women? Do you have any ideas of the barriers that women before us had to face to make it possible for us to get here? Have you read any of their stories because I have, and it makes me cry (both tears of sadness and joy).

I personally think women are generallyterrible at teamwork. They get attitudes and then don't want to "play" anymore.

As for stories that make you cry, I'm a double minority so I'm sure there's no tear jerking story I haven't already heard.

 

[Noeljan]

I personally think women are generallyterrible at teamwork. They get attitudes and then don't want to "play" anymore.

As for stories that make you cry, I'm a double minority so I'm sure there's no tear jerking story I haven't already heard.

Are you already a doctor? How would you know this? Have you worked long in healthcare? Don't you think women who have gotten this far have pride in their work? Also, don't you think men can be this way as well.

I feel I am a double minority as well (woman and jewish), but I don't know how that is relevant as we are talking about women (and not race) in this discussion.

 

[pennybridge]

I feel I am a double minority as well (woman and jewish), but I don't know how that is relevant as we are talking about women (and not race) in this discussion.

there's more women than men in the world!

btw, don't try too hard with this one, 1path's self righteousness is so consuming she can only read half of the posts in any given thread before her eyes pop out of her skull from all the imaginary offenses she makes up just so she can be pissed about something.

 

[Koch]

Are you already a doctor? How would you know this? Have you worked long in healthcare? Don't you think women who have gotten this far have pride in their work? Also, don't you think men can be this way as well.

I feel I am a double minority as well (woman and jewish), but I don't know how that is relevant as we are talking about women (and not race) in this discussion.

Women are a minority?

 

[Noeljan]

there's more women than men in the world!

btw, don't try too hard with this one, 1path's self righteousness is so consuming she can only read half of the posts in any given thread before her eyes pop out of her skull from all the imaginary offenses she makes up just so she can be pissed about something.

 

[Noeljan]

Women are a minority?

I was basically commenting on Ipaths post who claimed she was a double minority (I am assuming she meant woman and race) though maybe she meant race + race, lol. Who knows.

 

[1Path]

I guess it's nice to know that preallo is STILL the cesspool of SDN.

 

[VaulterGirl]

I personally think women are generallyterrible at teamwork. They get attitudes and then don't want to "play" anymore.

As for stories that make you cry, I'm a double minority so I'm sure there's no tear jerking story I haven't already heard.

Your horrible attitude and chip on your shoulder may be the reason no one wants to play with you? I dunno just a guess.

 

[Noeljan]

I guess it's nice to know that preallo is STILL the cesspool of SDN.

cesspool? why do you say that?

 

[Law2Doc]

Who is to say that a 30 year old has more important experiences than a 23 year old?

Statistics tend to bear this out. Odds are always better to have more experiences in a longer timespan.

Also in a field where maturity is prized because you will be dealing with death and disease and working significantly with the aged, there are certain advantages of having slightly more seasoned physicians. Not that some 21 year olds aren't actually fantastic, but many would be more fantastic a few years later.

 

[Noeljan]

Statistics tend to bear this out. Odds are always better to have more experiences in a longer timespan.

Also in a field where maturity is prized because you will be dealing with death and disease and working significantly with the aged, there are certain advantages of having slightly more seasoned physicians. Not that some 21 year olds aren't actually fantastic, but many would be more fantastic a few years later.

Yes but they will age as school and life goes along as well. I don't think it's fair to make people wait until they reach a certain age. Nowadays most 25 year olds aren't that much different than 23 year olds anyways. I just think that each person does have unique experiences they can bring to the table.

 

[Jacks Mannequin]

This is pretty dam sexist. First homophobia, now sexism. I think the future of medicine is in GREAT hands.

But I certainly do believe medicine would be better off with fewer women.

I personally think women are generallyterrible at teamwork. They get attitudes and then don't want to "play" anymore.

Wow..hypocrite, maybe? It's called a sense of humor, btw. I certainly wouldn't want you to be my doctor.

 

[notdeadyet]

Nowadays most 25 year olds aren't that much different than 23 year olds anyways.

Try this:

- talk to a 25 year old who's spent three years scraping a living together, with all of the compromises, drudgery and interactions from folks of all stripes and walks of life that comes with it.

- talk to a graduating college senior who is supported financially by either government aid or parental support.

You'll find you have two very different perspectives and levels of maturity. It's huge. Again, this is not to say that you won't meet 22 year old college seniors who have had atypical backgrounds and have the same amount of life experience as your 25 year old. But they're a minority.

The reason that life experience outside of the student/physician life is helpful is that a vast majority of your patients will be neither students nor physicians.

 

[spicedmanna]

Yes but they will age as school and life goes along as well. I don't think it's fair to make people wait until they reach a certain age. Nowadays most 25 year olds aren't that much different than 23 year olds anyways. I just think that each person does have unique experiences they can bring to the table.

I've talked at length about this with some attending physicians. It is their belief that it is of benefit to be a little older and to have accumulated some life experience before attending medical medical school. This is not to say that there aren't plenty of younger students who are just as mature and well-suited for medicine at whatever age they happen to be, it's that there is some advantage, or edge, to having lived life a little more and having been through some significant experiences. It can serve as preparation for what lies ahead.

From my discussions with these attendings, it seems that medical school, especially the pre-clinical years, can be somewhat of a social vacuum. The opportunities to grow socially are probably more limited than what the usual folk experience. Basically, students start accelerating their social learning during the clinical years and during residency. They catch up pretty quickly and learn fast. However, there is likely an advantage to having been out in the work world already for some time and having lived life longer, before reaching the clinical stage, as a non-traditional student might have done. There will be, in many cases, more ease in social interaction and less difficulty adjusting to a demanding work schedule, with greater life experience from the onset. Non-traditional students might be a little quicker on the draw with social interaction and work related stuff right from the gates, but the traditional folks probably end up catching up after a period of adjustment.

Anyway, these are, of course, gross generalizations, but I think there is some edge that comes from being older, but this does not make traditional medical students any less suited for medicine. I think it's silly to create an artificial age line. Basically the best time to attend medical school is when you are ready to do so. That differs for different people.

 

[MonkeyNuts!]

Guys and gals, we've gotten some complaints about this thread. Please keep things civil.

You have GOT to be kidding me.

Who is so sensitive and has that BIG of a stick up their poopshoot that they get offended by THIS thread?!?

 

[Noeljan]

You have GOT to be kidding me.

Who is so sensitive and has that BIG of a stick up their poopshoot that they get offended by THIS thread?!?

I agree. I think we have been pretty civil. Maybe a few silly comments have been made, but ok.

spicemamma, you made some very good points. In conclusion though I also agree, you can't set some barrier age/number.

 

[45408]

A late start is better than no start. But I'm planning to start in my early 40's which is FAR from age 25. A "late" start would be 30.

No it's more because there's something to be said about more life experience.

Life experience is good, but I think you're making quite the assumption that all these people will mature into better people over those extra few years, rather than smoking weed and getting drunk on the weekends while they wait to get into med school. There's also something to be said for those who are motivated and intelligent enough to get into medical school right after college. I think the current system is working out just fine. If people want to wait/explore other options, more power to them. I have nothing against non-trads, unless they have something against the traditional approach.

 

[Noeljan]

Life experience is good, but I think you're making quite the assumption that all these people will mature into better people over those extra few years, rather than smoking weed and getting drunk on the weekends while they wait to get into med school. There's also something to be said for those who are motivated and intelligent enough to get into medical school right after college. I think the current system is working out just fine. If people want to wait/explore other options, more power to them. I have nothing against non-trads, unless they have something against the traditional approach.

you said exactly what was in my mind but wasn't coming out right

 

[45408]

lol that's like the Godwin's Law of SDN

just call me Hitler already!

so true! I call it the ad bad future doctore argument.

 

[45408]

yeah you're aged like a fine wine.

I was gonna say, more along the lines of aged like milk....left out of the fridge.

 

[45408]

Try this:

- talk to a 25 year old who's spent three years scraping a living together, with all of the compromises, drudgery and interactions from folks of all stripes and walks of life that comes with it.

- talk to a graduating college senior who is supported financially by either government aid or parental support.

You'll find you have two very different perspectives and levels of maturity. It's huge.

I'd have to disagree. There MIGHT be a difference, but assuming there WILL be is a mistake, IMO. I've held a few blue collar jobs over the years (despite the fact that I'm not that old), and I have met a LOT of people who are 25+ and are pretty much the complete opposite of a mature adult who can support themselves like you would expect them to be able to. Perhaps that 25 year old will have had some enlightening, thoughtful, maturing experiences, but from what I've seen, that's not a particularly well-founded assumption. And lots of them don't have to scrape a living together, as long as they were planning ahead. Most of my friends who graduated college and got jobs right away were planning ahead pretty well, so there wasn't any "scraping along" involved, even without parental help. And as a graduating college senior, I had a lot more exposure to all walks of life through my experiences than most 25-year olds.

 

[DoctorPardi]

We're still receiving reported posts about this thread. Insulting one another and posting bigotted or offensive language is not necessary to carry on a debate.

Insulting others is a vioaltion of SDN's TOS and if it continues action may be taken. Just chill out and discuss this matter in a friendly way without resorting to name calling. If you find yourself unable to refrain from posting hateful, offensive or insulting comments, please just don't post at all.

Thank you
-DP

 

[Koch]

I'd have to disagree. There MIGHT be a difference, but assuming there WILL be is a mistake, IMO. I've held a few blue collar jobs over the years (despite the fact that I'm not that old), and I have met a LOT of people who are 25+ and are pretty much the complete opposite of a mature adult who can support themselves like you would expect them to be able to. Perhaps that 25 year old will have had some enlightening, thoughtful, maturing experiences, but from what I've seen, that's not a particularly well-founded assumption. And lots of them don't have to scrape a living together, as long as they were planning ahead. Most of my friends who graduated college and got jobs right away were planning ahead pretty well, so there wasn't any "scraping along" involved, even without parental help. And as a graduating college senior, I had a lot more exposure to all walks of life through my experiences than most 25-year olds.

A little self-serving if you ask me.

 

[MChitty]

I'd have to disagree. There MIGHT be a difference, but assuming there WILL be is a mistake, IMO. I've held a few blue collar jobs over the years (despite the fact that I'm not that old), and I have met a LOT of people who are 25+ and are pretty much the complete opposite of a mature adult who can support themselves like you would expect them to be able to. Perhaps that 25 year old will have had some enlightening, thoughtful, maturing experiences, but from what I've seen, that's not a particularly well-founded assumption. And lots of them don't have to scrape a living together, as long as they were planning ahead. Most of my friends who graduated college and got jobs right away were planning ahead pretty well, so there wasn't any "scraping along" involved, even without parental help. And as a graduating college senior, I had a lot more exposure to all walks of life through my experiences than most 25-year olds.

That may be the case, but we're talking about this in the context of medical school admissions. So in all honesty, how many of those co-workers of yours were planning on going to medical school?

I'm merely playing devil's advocate. I think there are some advantages to being older when you start medical school, but at the same time, there are advantages to being younger. For example--handling the lack of sleep and such on rotations/residency is probably easier at a younger age rather than at an older one.

Either way, it's good that there's a diverse range of people going to medical school so that all of our doctors aren't exactly the same. That's the point of this whole admissions process, isn't it? If there were just a list of criteria that you had to meet, how would you create a diverse group of physicians?

 

[notdeadyet]

I've held a few blue collar jobs over the years (despite the fact that I'm not that old), and I have met a LOT of people who are 25+ and are pretty much the complete opposite of a mature adult who can support themselves like you would expect them to be able to.

I totally agree. The idea is not that 25yo Joe Sixpack is more mature than a 22yo PreMed. It's the idea that after 3 years of life experience, that 22yo PreMed will become a better applicant, a more mature individual and ultimately a better doctor for it.

Glad to hear you have some blue collar experience. You may have a lot of life experience packed into your years. Many premeds don't. 3 years in the real world would do many of them quite well. There are just simply life lessons you don't learn as a student. The number of folks who become physicians without ever learning them is a bit troubling to me and explains the personalities of so many doctors I've come into contact with.

 

[Divine Furor]

A little self-serving if you ask me.

Not just that, but just as generalizing as some of the opinions voiced previously. So I could say: As a 28-yr-old, I have had a lot more exposure through all walks of life through my experiences than most graduating seniors...and we wind up with the same lack of effect.

As long as some seemingly arbitrary standards exists--MCAT scores, group interviews, etc., and people fail to get *exactly* where and what they want through the process of applying to medical school, we'll have "hypothetical assertion" posts like that of the OP that starting this troll-mayhem thread. I'm going to throw in with MChitty and say generally that diversity is critical to the robustness of any profession, including medicine. Perhaps especially medicine, since it's the context we're working with here.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I personally think women are generallyterrible at teamwork. They get attitudes and then don't want to "play" anymore.

As for stories that make you cry, I'm a double minority so I'm sure there's no tear jerking story I haven't already heard.

So you're a self-hating woman -- nice. You should hang out with trigesmetus or however the hell he spells his name.

As has been pointed, you're also doing your usual thing and just looking to p&ss some people off.

 

[8744]

That may be the case, but we're talking about this in the context of medical school admissions. So in all honesty, how many of those co-workers of yours were planning on going to medical school?

I'm merely playing devil's advocate. I think there are some advantages to being older when you start medical school, but at the same time, there are advantages to being younger. For example--handling the lack of sleep and such on rotations/residency is probably easier at a younger age rather than at an older one.

Either way, it's good that there's a diverse range of people going to medical school so that all of our doctors aren't exactly the same. That's the point of this whole admissions process, isn't it? If there were just a list of criteria that you had to meet, how would you create a diverse group of physicians?

See? That's why I can't take you seriously. Not only did you use the "D" word but you used it twice.

 

[notdeadyet]

I think there are some advantages to being older when you start medical school, but at the same time, there are advantages to being younger. For example--handling the lack of sleep and such on rotations/residency is probably easier at a younger age rather than at an older one.

The young don't handle sleep better; the healthy do. Most younger folks are healthier than most older folks. But I'll bet the 40yo woman who runs marathons 3x a year will handle shift work and 80 hour weeks better than the 22yo already starting to atrophy due to no life outside of the library.

Again, this is why I think judgements based on age distinctions are silly. If you grant me the admissions requirement of all applicants having 3 years of full-time work experience, I'll grant you a basic physical fitness test for everyone as a prereq (with allowances for the disabled).

 

[MChitty]

See? That's why I can't take you seriously. Not only did you use the "D" word but you used it twice.

I did forget to put in my caveat of "maybe you don't want a diverse group of people..."

Take me seriously or not, but that's what med schools are trying to do...

 

[pennybridge]

'll grant you a basic physical fitness test for everyone as a prereq (with allowances for the disabled).

why bother? if you're saying a couch potato can't be a doctor, why can a palsy kid?

 

[EMDream]

Heres what I think of this comment

Hahaha Oh man it great to know that being 25 is now the new 40!! The average age of my class was 25. I guess thats so old we must be nontrad I am going to get all my older applicant classmates together and eat jello and go watch a "talkie".

I know, since when is 25 nontrad?!

I think the maturity level sucks in some med students, although I'm NOT sure it has to do with age entirely . But I'm sure it's like that in law students too.

 

[MChitty]

The young don't handle sleep better; the healthy do. Most younger folks are healthier than most older folks. But I'll be the 40yo woman who runs marathons 3x a year will handle shift work and 80 hour weeks better than the 22yo already starting to atrophy due to no life outside of the library.

Again, this is why I think judgements based on age distinctions are silly. If you grant me the admissions requirement of all applicants having 3 years of full-time work experience, I'll grant you a basic physical fitness test for everyone as a prereq (with allowances for the disabled).

I was talking more about me now versus me 5 years ago. I guarantee the 40 year old running marathons was able to handle no sleep better at 22 than at 40...

 

[notdeadyet]

why bother? if you're saying a couch potato can't be a doctor, why can a palsy kid?

Because couch potato is a choice and palsy is a disability? Regardless, I wouldn't read too much into it. The fitness test was meant to be taken lightly.