If med schools did this, I'd bet they produce better doctors

[pennybridge]

Because couch potato is a choice and palsy is a disability? Regardless, I wouldn't read too much into it. The fitness test was meant to be taken lightly.

nothing will be taken lightly in this thread!! This is serious business!

Come on, we have to decide by TONIGHT if we make this 25 years old thing a real requirement or not. If SDN says so it becomes fact! No going back after that.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[notdeadyet]

I guarantee the 40 year old running marathons was able to handle no sleep better at 22 than at 40...

I'd be careful about that. I'm in much better shape now than I was at 22, as are many of my friends. And most marathoners trend towards older ages. The marathons I've run have always had more folks in their 30's and in their 40's than in their 20's.

 

[notdeadyet]

If SDN says so it becomes fact! No going back after that.

God help us all...

 

[MChitty]

I'd be careful about that. I'm in much better shape now than I was at 22, as are many of my friends. And most marathoners trend towards older ages. The marathons I've run have always had more folks in their 30's and in their 40's than in their 20's.

All right! Well I'm talking about myself then...

 

[spicedmanna]

I guarantee the 40 year old running marathons was able to handle no sleep better at 22 than at 40...

That's not really a good guarantee. We are talking about a somewhat subjective measure called "handle." It's arguable at best.

However, even if it were true that older individuals (and it's a huge "if" here) are less able to withstand sleep deprivation, there ways to compensate for some of the impacts of the said abuse by economy of action, which is based on experience, wisdom, and skill, not age. Therefore, a better assertion is that those with the above attributes will be better able to "handle" their residency in general and it is not necessarily age related, but there may be a correlation.

 

[MChitty]

That's not really a good guarantee. We are talking about a somewhat subjective measure called "handle." It's arguable at best.

However, even if it were true that older individuals (and it's a huge "if" here) are less able to withstand sleep deprivation, there ways to compensate for some of the impacts of the said abuse by economy of action, which is based on experience, wisdom, and skill, not age. Therefore, a better assertion is that those with the above attributes will be better able to "handle" their residency in general and it is not necessarily age related, but there may be a correlation.

I'm not trying to make a statement about every single older individual. I was merely trying to think of a reason off the top of my head of an advantage of being younger. I've personally noticed that I need more sleep now than I used to. I'm not saying I can't handle medical school etc, but it's just an observation. Also, my parents say that as they've gotten older, it's harder for them as well and they couldn't imagine going through residency right now--and they're definitely in better shape now. I take back the guarantee!

 

[Cirrus83]

Yea, I bet they'd also produce better docs if med school was 8 years instead of 4 and residencies were twice as long. Just because it would work doesn't mean it's rational.

Actually I suspect so many people would decide not to apply in that case that you'd get much crappier doctors lol.

 

[Cirrus83]

I'd be careful about that. I'm in much better shape now than I was at 22, as are many of my friends. And most marathoners trend towards older ages. The marathons I've run have always had more folks in their 30's and in their 40's than in their 20's.

Yeah as far as running marathons go it would seem that as you keep running you actually deal better with no sleep (this based on what some super-marathoner guy said about cutting his sleep down to like 3 hours a night now that he's superman lol).

And for what it's worth I'm in better shape now than I was at 22 also, but I'm only 24 But it's pretty easy to say that when I was basically a couch potato (actually computer desk potato but not the point) at 22.

Come to think of it though, the no sleep thing is kind of a lousy example, since younger people actually need more sleep than older individuals, and people actually sleep less as they age. Yeah, I too remember being able to stay up all night in high school, but it was probably pretty terrible for my body and not what my body really needed anyway.

 

[IWant2BeADoctor]

See? That's why I can't take you seriously. Not only did you use the "D" word but you used it twice.

Guess you've had plenty of Diversity after the Hurricane Katrina mess. I heard the Hospitals where so full some Doctors were actually killing sick patients.

Aren't you a Resident Physcian? It seems like you have too much free time to be a Resident.

On the other hand what do I know I'm still a Pre-Med.

 

[Cirrus83]

Ooh...Cool idea! That way you can get a running start on despising your patients!

lol I worked for almost 2 years at an inner city health clinic actually, although obviously I wasn't a doctor. But it would seem that most of the doctors there didn't actually despise their patients, lol.

 

[Cirrus83]

Highly unlikely that I'd be set off by the Mickey D couch potato nintendo gamyboy generation.

Wow...you definitely are old...
First off, McDonald's has been around for over 50 years...so if you think being in the McDonald's generation is what makes a person young I think you should start looking for a good nursing home.

Secondly, we aren't couch potatoes so much as computer desk potatoes these days who watch videos on youtube. Also, this whole nintendo gameboy is also quite passe by now, I believe nintendo DS generation would be more apt.

But seriously...McDonald's=young person? Jeez...

 

[DDSBound]

Yeah, and if a pimp required a minimum of DD cup size they would have better hookers but it won't happen, nor should it.

 

[pennybridge]

i love it when the dentists check in, always profound.

 

[IWant2BeADoctor]

lol I worked for almost 2 years at an inner city health clinic actually, although obviously I wasn't a doctor. But it would seem that most of the doctors there didn't actually despise their patients, lol.

Doctors are good at acting. Med School interviews seperate the lousy actors from the good ones!

 

[Cirrus83]

either way assuming you are female, would you like a 17 yr old male checking you out with a speculum?

FWIW, if we were talking specifically about Sho Yano, I don't think I'd mind him examining my prostate any more than I'd mind anyone else. It'd be equally unpleasant I think, and at least with Dr. Yano he might have smaller hands since he's so young

 

[PacoChavez]

THIS THREAD IS THE MOST ******ED THING EVER! Imposing broad restrictions on applications to medical school is absurd. Every person is an individual..ie, unique, and that's why they have ADMISSIONS COMMITTEES...

 

[baylormed]

1) Set a minimum age at matriculation at 25

2) Require a 1 year volunteer experience in a rural or inner city health clinic.

Let me guess, you are 25+.

No way, I'll be done with it at 24 and I wouldn't have it any other way. The sooner I can start putting money towards retirement, the better.

 

[IWant2BeADoctor]

Let me guess, you are 25+.

No way, I'll be done with it at 24 and I wouldn't have it any other way. The sooner I can start putting money towards retirement, the better.

Congratulations your an official over achiever! Can't help but feel a twinge of envy.
I'm almost 23 and wish I had an earlier start. But oh well...like my dad always says no matter what you do you'll still be aging.

 

[Darjeeling]

I seriously doubt you'd get more rich kids because so many of the "rich kids" I go to school with would rather burn their Manolo's and porches than venture over to the 'hood.

I work with inner city patients now and find them a LOT easier to work with than those with the silver porches stuck up their a$$e$.

I've enjoyed lurking around this thread, but these posts made me laugh out loud. I can just see it now, those darn rich kids with their flaming porches stuffed up their behinds. Sure, maybe a Porsche would fit little better, but the front porch is such a lovely image. Thanks for the good times, 1Path.

 

[Law2Doc]

That's not really a good guarantee. We are talking about a somewhat subjective measure called "handle." It's arguable at best.

However, even if it were true that older individuals (and it's a huge "if" here) are less able to withstand sleep deprivation, there ways to compensate for some of the impacts of the said abuse by economy of action, which is based on experience, wisdom, and skill, not age. Therefore, a better assertion is that those with the above attributes will be better able to "handle" their residency in general and it is not necessarily age related, but there may be a correlation.

I think you guys have it backwards. Although there is ongoing scientific debate and studies that dispute this, the conventional wisdom has been that older people require less sleep.

 

[45408]

A little self-serving if you ask me.

How do you figure?

 

[45408]

But I'll be the 40yo woman

You looked fairly masculine to me, unless you're the bearded lady the admissions people were talking about.

 

[On3H34rT]

i demand sources supporting this wild claim!

You sound like Dr. House.

Kudos.

 

[pennybridge]

You sound like Dr. House.

Kudos.

it's not lupus.


IT'S NEVER LUPUS!!!1

 

[Noeljan]

getting back to the title of this thread, this assumes that we are not currently producing good enough doctors, which I disagree with. Most of the doctors I have come into contact with have been intelligent ,pretty friendly people.

 

[8744]

Guess you've had plenty of Diversity after the Hurricane Katrina mess. I heard the Hospitals where so full some Doctors were actually killing sick patients.

Aren't you a Resident Physcian? It seems like you have too much free time to be a Resident.

On the other hand what do I know I'm still a Pre-Med.

In just six short weeks I am going to be a PGY-3 Emergency Medicine resident (although if you want to get technical I'm going to be a PGY-3 second year EM resident).

For cryin' out loud, don't any of you mother****ers (and I mean that in a nice way) read my blog? It's not as if, as you correctly pointed out, I have a lot of free time to devote to it. What you see on my blog is payed for with lost sleep.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

that's because most people don't know enough about medicine to complain! have you ever talked to scientists who go see incompetent doctors? it's amazing how knowing a little bit of science can make the doctor look stupid. the kind of things some doctors prescribe for certain symptoms is just ******ed. remember university health services?

you're forgetting that the most common complaints people have about their physicians is the lack of communication skills and lack of sensitivity.

board and specialty licensing exams are designed to separate out the quacks, and doctors with a string of incompetent decisions that cause harm to many patients eventually become sanctioned by state boards.



an especially important consideration is that traumatic news is often dealt out by physicians. if the news is not given in a sensitive and appropriate manner (which it unfortunately often is not), then the memory of the insensitivity can haunt the patient and/or his family for years to come. An instructive example was presented by some people at Boston Children's last year in JAMA: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...&list_uids=16772628&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus

 

[8744]

I think you guys have it backwards. Although there is ongoing scientific debate and studies that dispute this, the conventional wisdom has been that older people require less sleep.

My younger colleagues marvel at my ability to remain cheerful and good-spirited whatever the hour. The secret is that I'm dying inside, often being physically ill on call from fatigue, dehydration, and sleep deprivation.

And that, dear friends is why medical training blows and why, if I had known eight years ago what I know now, if I had heard you arguing about who deserves to go to medical school I would have said, "Here, take the mother****er. Knock yourselves out."

 

[cleverpseudonym]

wow,
you people would HATE me.
started med school at 18. will graduate at 22.
only admission standards were the highest grades in the country of those who applied.
from my experience, while my class is predominantly mensa members, the theory of smart =/= social skills is a myth. I don't know why people think this. I've always found that super smart guys and gals who don't really like people study maths or biochem or something. Why someone would chose medicine if they knew they had no interest in people is beyond me.

 

[Noeljan]

wow,
you people would HATE me.
started med school at 18. will graduate at 22.
only admission standards were the highest grades in the country of those who applied.
from my experience, while my class is predominantly mensa members, the theory of smart =/= social skills is a myth. I don't know why people think this. I've always found that super smart guys and gals who don't really like people study maths or biochem or something. Why someone would chose medicine if they knew they had no interest in people is beyond me.

People say things like that out of jealousy. They need to feel like they can have SOMETHING over you. If you are smart, you must not know how to be social. If you are pretty you must not be that smart, etc....Which is usually not the case.
ps what about people who studied biochem and now medicine??

 

[Law2Doc]

I've always found that super smart guys and gals who don't really like people study maths or biochem or something. Why someone would chose medicine if they knew they had no interest in people is beyond me.

Frame of reference is key. You are speaking as a very young person with very high academics. Who you find to be having or lacking social skills may not represent the views of everyone.

 

[cnoevil]

And that, dear friends is why medical training blows and why, if I had known eight years ago what I know now, if I had heard you arguing about who deserves to go to medical school I would have said, "Here, take the mother****er. Knock yourselves out."

fu*kin-a

to the rest - you are ->

 

[notdeadyet]

Frame of reference is key. You are speaking as a very young person with very high academics. Who you find to be having or lacking social skills may not represent the views of everyone.

Agreed. The funny thing about locking a bunch of mensa members in a room is that they all feel pretty social and witty. It's when you try to mix them in with general population that the trouble begins. A mensa pizza party can be a riotous affair, but if you dragged them into a dive bar and asked them to mingle, there'd be blood, sweat and tears.

 

[45408]

Agreed. The funny thing about locking a bunch of mensa members in a room is that they all feel pretty social and witty. It's when you try to mix them in with general population that the trouble begins. A mensa pizza party can be a riotous affair, but if you dragged them into a dive bar and asked them to mingle, there'd be blood, sweat and tears.

Apparently, MENSA social events are incredibly promiscuous as well, according to an article in our local newspaper from a reporter who attended one. A lot of the people there readily admitted that they all liked to sleep around with other MENSA members. Of course, maybe these events attract those with raging libidos, but it was just interesting to me.

 

[IWant2BeADoctor]

Apparently, MENSA social events are incredibly promiscuous as well, according to an article in our local newspaper from a reporter who attended one. A lot of the people there readily admitted that they all liked to sleep around with other MENSA members. Of course, maybe these events attract those with raging libidos, but it was just interesting to me.

Either that or high libidos correlate with high IQs.

 

[1Path]

ps what about people who studied biochem and now medicine??

GREAT question!!

I've enjoyed lurking around this thread, but these posts made me laugh out loud. I can just see it now, those darn rich kids with their flaming porches stuffed up their behinds. Sure, maybe a Porsche would fit little better, but the front porch is such a lovely image. Thanks for the good times, 1Path.

I was raised in the south where the "wrap around" porch is common.

 

[Law2Doc]

Apparently, MENSA social events are incredibly promiscuous as well, according to an article in our local newspaper from a reporter who attended one. A lot of the people there readily admitted that they all liked to sleep around with other MENSA members. Of course, maybe these events attract those with raging libidos, but it was just interesting to me.

I suspect it's more that a lot of those folks aren't getting invited to all that many parties, and so they maximize their one social outlet to the fullest. Sort of like employees getting drunk and hooking up at a x-mas party.

 

[notdeadyet]

You looked fairly masculine to me, unless you're the bearded lady the admissions people were talking about.

Oops. That should have read, "I'll bet the 40 year old woman..." Nice catch. I'll go back and change.

I'd make one ugly woman.

 

[DDSBound]

You sound like Dr. House.

Kudos.

Again with the House obession! Geez! Calm down! Here is the deal. House is fictional. Hugh Laurie graduated with 3rd honors = about a C average. Think he could have made it into medical school? It is unhealthy to obsess about fiction!

 

[baylormed]

Again with the House obession! Geez! Calm down! Here is the deal. House is fictional. Hugh Laurie graduated with 3rd honors = about a C average. Think he could have made it into medical school? It is unhealthy to obsess about fiction!

You need to get a sense of humor.

 

[braluk]

This debate is going to be discussed ad nauseum and I sincerely doubt if anything will come of it without inflaming a large group of people.

One thing I wonder is if the P=MD rule should be thrown out the window, would it be another weeding out process that could cut down the load of "inept" physicians? We know generally colleges seem to have much higher rates of attrition than medical school, while medical schools boast somewhere around 90-95% graduation rate, because medical schools tend to do what it takes to get their students to graduate. What if medical schools were less receptive to failing students?

 

[vernal equinox]

Agreed. The funny thing about locking a bunch of mensa members in a room is that they all feel pretty social and witty. It's when you try to mix them in with general population that the trouble begins. A mensa pizza party can be a riotous affair, but if you dragged them into a dive bar and asked them to mingle, there'd be blood, sweat and tears.

sooo true!

 

[baylormed]

GREAT question!!

I was raised in the south where the "wrap around" porch is common.

When I grow up, I want a house with a wrap around porch.

 

[Noeljan]

whattt. Just because someone is in MENSA does not mean they have no social skills!

 

[baylormed]

whattt. Just because someone is in MENSA does not mean they have no social skills!

I've always found it ironic (and pretty hilarious) that "MENSA" means "STUPID/DUMB" in Spanish. Hahahahahah.

 

[Noeljan]

I've always found it ironic (and pretty hilarious) that "MENSA" means "STUPID/DUMB" in Spanish. Hahahahahah.

 

[pennybridge]

Again with the House obession!....Hugh Laurie graduated with 3rd honors = about a C average.

you sure know intimate details about this guy. who's got the obsession?


btw, when is your book about being an OMF surgeon hitting the shelves? I'll make sure to look for it in the science fiction section.

that is if your wife/mom doesn't put you on timeout and you never get around to writing it.

 

[Law2Doc]

whattt. Just because someone is in MENSA does not mean they have no social skills!

Pretty much every free or city paper in the country has sent a reporter to a MENSA party at some point to report on the goings on. The stories that I've seen reported as a group tend not to be flattering toward MENSAn social skills -- lots of inept pick-up attempts and geeky conversation topics and many pocket protector types. But as with every topic on this board there will be anecdotal exceptions.

 

[pennybridge]

Pretty much every free or city paper in the country has sent a reporter to a MENSA party at some point to report on the goings on. The stories that I've seen reported as a group tend not to be flattering toward MENSAn social skills -- lots of inept pick-up attempts and geeky conversation topics and many pocket protector types. But as with every topic on this board there will be anecdotal exceptions.

i know a guy who went to a mensa party and he got in to Harvard

 

[caduceusdude]

In most other countries students don't even have to have bachelors b4 entering med school. All they need is a high school diploma. Ppl have to think twice about becoming a doctor in the US because the process is soooo long. Now on top of this, u wanna add a rule saying that u can't apply until ur 25...RU OUT OF UR MIND? As a younger applicant i take offense at this suggestion that younger ppl aren't mature enough to handle medical school.