1. Dismiss Notice
  2. Download free Tapatalk for iPhone or Tapatalk for Android for your phone and follow the SDN forums with push notifications.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
Visit Interview Feedback to view and submit interview information.

If salaries of MDs were below 50G, Ed..tuition- free, Only 10% of us will be applying

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - MD' started by patient, Apr 26, 2002.

  1. patient

    patient Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    0
    I was wondering how much passion or love for mankind are we expected to have
    in order to become great MDs.
    This is not intended to accuse anyone but just to find out what your opinion is.
    Let us put aside the average income, inflation, or capitalism.
     
  2. Note: SDN Members do not see this ad.

  3. vixen

    vixen I like members
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2000
    Messages:
    5,760
    Likes Received:
    1
    I think you're too late. I posted a thread about this a month ago. I don't know if the search function is working yet, but if it is, you can look it up.
     
  4. patient

    patient Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    0
    the search engine is dead and there is no way I could have Known. Sorry.
     
  5. Resident Alien

    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2001
    Messages:
    1,041
    Likes Received:
    3
    if the salaries of md's were below 50, the average american salary would be 10 G.
     
  6. johnM

    johnM Senior Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2002
    Messages:
    403
    Likes Received:
    0
    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> If salaries of MDs were below 50G, Ed..tuition- free, Only 10% of us will be applying </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">OK.... :confused:

    Is this supposed to be some kind of revelation?

    Go capitalism! <img border="0" alt="[Clappy]" title="" src="graemlins/clappy.gif" />
     
  7. johnM

    johnM Senior Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2002
    Messages:
    403
    Likes Received:
    0
    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Resident Alien:
    <strong>if the salaries of md's were below 50, the average american salary would be 10 G.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I didn't think that's what patient meant, I thought he(she?) meant doctors made about the same as a HS teacher.
     
  8. kafka79

    kafka79 Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2001
    Messages:
    87
    Likes Received:
    0
    If doctors made 50k a year, it would definitely affect my opinion about entering medicine, but I still think, or at least, hope that I would choose medicine. I do think a lot of people would still want to become doctors. Look at all of the people who spend five or six years getting a PhD to make $50k a year as an adjunct faculty member. Some of these people are incredibly talented and hard working, but never see much money. Just a thought.

    Also, there is a certain prestige factor that motivates people to become doctors. One survey, for example, found that physician is the most prestigious tyoe of job in the U.S. There is a respect for doctors in our society that motivates people to enter medicine. Besides, I don't think doctor's salaries will ever get this low. People will always be willing to pay a lot of money for the best possible medical care. If anything, more government or big business involvement in health care is likely to cause greater inequality in both quality of care and doctor's salaries. Whoever can afford the best doctors pay well for them. Those who can't afford the best care will have to settle for doctors who will accept less money. Check out this acticle: <a href="http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/30073_richmed05.shtml" target="_blank">In 'retainer medicine,' the doctor is always in </a>. This is certainly a disturbing prospect. That's just my opinion though. I'd like to hear others thoughts on this.
     
  9. Resident Alien

    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2001
    Messages:
    1,041
    Likes Received:
    3
    im not serious, geeez! I like to refrain from commenting on hypothetical stuff :)
     
  10. Blitzkrieg

    Blitzkrieg 1K Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    1,653
    Likes Received:
    1
    kafka,

    what's wrong with the premium doc service? It's capitalism at it's best. :) There is nothing evil with rich people getting special care if they are willing to pay for it.
     
  11. lmm

    lmm Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2001
    Messages:
    52
    Likes Received:
    0
    If tuition was free, then wouldn't it be more difficult to get in to an MD program, assuming they would cut back the number of physicians being trained each year---it costs ALOT to train us!
     
  12. ussdfiant

    Physician Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2001
    Messages:
    1,623
    Likes Received:
    9
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    For $50K I would just stay where I am. Not that I make that much yet, but why go &gt;$100K further in debt (and lose a decade of my life) when I could stay here, get an MBA (on the company's dime!) and easily make &gt;$50K. I know I will love medicine, but I love providing for my family too. The cost in time and money to become a physician is too great to be so poorly compensated. No one would be able to afford to be a doctor. BTW this is a trend that is plaguing podiatry at the moment.
     
  13. Taty

    Taty Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,001
    Likes Received:
    12
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    I could go anyway :)
     
  14. medicine2006

    medicine2006 Happy Pisces
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    1,929
    Likes Received:
    2
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    I think that most people go into medicine for the love of the profession, then the prestige, and finally the money in that order.

    I think that we as future doctors should try to give some of our time to help out the needy and underserved. But it is so hard to become a doctor. You have to be a damn good student as an undergrad. Then there is the long application process. Four years of med school with boards. Long hour as a resident for peanuts. All this hard work and sacrafice of our prime years deserves compensation. Why should we be paid as much as a toll booth operator in New Jersey or less than a worthless stock broker?

    THe general public seems to think that many doctors are this money driven people with god-complex. The truth is physician salaries are not what is causing our current health care system to comsume so much of our GNP. For a $250,000 heart transplant proceedure the surgeons fee is about $2000 from what I've been told.

    All this being said I myself plan to pursue a very low paying specialty (internal med) and dedicate a lot of time helping out the underserved because that is where I grew up. This is why I am chosing to go to Howard, a school that recruits students who are very giving and want to serve their communities.
     
  15. fishtolive

    fishtolive Senior Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2001
    Messages:
    330
    Likes Received:
    0
    for 50g? never on your life would i enter medicine if i thought that would be the ceiling...shove it up your ass hippies! kidding, kidding, man!
     
  16. Hero

    Hero Senior Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,126
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    medicine or bust.
     
  17. marleybfour

    marleybfour Senior Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2001
    Messages:
    145
    Likes Received:
    0
    As a critical care nurse I make between $75,000 to $120,000 a year depending on the hours I put in. I have no student loans. Hour for hour I will make less as a primary care physician. I am obviously NOT going into this for the money!! In my opinion if you cannot answer "yes" to the above statement, then reconsider your career chioce. Medicine ( and reimbursements) is not going to get better, only worse. You will end up being a miserable doctor if you go into this for the money.
     
  18. rxfudd

    rxfudd 1K Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2001
    Messages:
    1,343
    Likes Received:
    4
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by marleybfour:
    <strong>You will end up being a miserable doctor if you go into this for the money.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">"Going into this for the money" and "not wanting to be $150,000 in debt making less than most people who started working when they were 21" are two COMPLETELY different things and should be treated as such.

    It's fantastic that you're a nurse making that much money, that you have no student loans, and that you love your job. But you fail to recognize that you are a rare situation in your profession. My girlfriend is a nursing student - she has been told more times than I can count (by nurses with whom she works) to get out of nursing because the pay is just not there, especially when you consider the hours and energy you must put in. From our experiences (from multiple Chicago hospitals) this mentality seems to be the rule rather than the exception.

    Physicians do not begin making actual money until post-residency. At this point, he or she is $150,000+ in debt, almost 30 years old, working long hours, and paying insane malpractice insurance premiums. The average salary for a doctor in the united states is currently about $150,000. Can anyone here really imagine doing all of that with less than $50K a year?

    And even if tuition were free - I still don't understand the problem with wanting to make money. I don't care how humanistic and compassionate your are - medicine is still a career. When will people be willing to admit that you can go into medicine because you love it AND because it pays well? I see nothing wrong with being able to love your job and make good money at it at the same time. There are a hell of a lot of people in the world who are musicians and who love making music - they don't do it (even though they truly love it) because the average salary for a musician is shameful. I don't think it makes them any less of a person that they let financial considerations factor into a career decision. There seem to be purists who feel that you must suffer from low wages in order to be a worthy doctor. I just don't get it...
     
  19. ermonty

    ermonty Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2001
    Messages:
    270
    Likes Received:
    3
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Rxfudd,
    My thoughts exactly, well said!
     
  20. marleybfour

    marleybfour Senior Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2001
    Messages:
    145
    Likes Received:
    0
    What I am trying to express is that medicine, especially primary care, doesn't pay that well anymore. When you deduct all your insurances, student loans, salaries...etc, and take into account the HOURS you are putting in, the pay is not great. Obviously the idea of a "great" salary is relevent and depends on the viewpoint it is coming from. If you don't love medicine you may become very disappointed in your salary. There are much easier ways to make money if that is your PRIMARY goal.
     
  21. Papa Smurf

    Papa Smurf Thug 4 Life
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2002
    Messages:
    1,903
    Likes Received:
    2
    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by rxfudd:
    <strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by marleybfour:
    <strong>You will end up being a miserable doctor if you go into this for the money.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">"Going into this for the money" and "not wanting to be $150,000 in debt making less than most people who started working when they were 21" are two COMPLETELY different things and should be treated as such.

    It's fantastic that your a nurse making that much money, that you have no student loans, and that you love your job. But you fail to recognize that you are a rare situation in your profession. My girlfriend is a nursing student - she has been told more times than I can count (by nurses with whom she works) to get out of nursing because the pay is just not there, especially when you consider the hours and energy you must put in. From our experiences (from multiple Chicago hospitals) this mentality seems to be the rule rather than the exception.

    Physicians do not begin making actual money until post-residency. At this point, he or she is $150,000+ in debt, almost 30 years old, working long hours, and paying insane malpractice insurance premiums. The average salary for a doctor in the united states is currently about $150,000. Can anyone here really imagine doing all of that with less than $50K a year?

    And even if tuition were free - I still don't understand the problem with wanting to make money. I don't care how humanistic and compassionate your are - medicine is still a career. When will people be willing to admit that you can go into medicine because you love it AND because it pays well? I see nothing wrong with being able to love your job and make good money at it at the same time. There are a hell of a lot of people in the world who are musicians and who love making music - they don't do it (even though they truly love it) because the average salary for a musician is shameful. I don't think it makes them any less of a person that they let financial considerations factor into a career decision. There seem to be purists who feel that you must suffer from low wages in order to be a worthy doctor. I just don't get it...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">BEST POST EVER!!!!!! BOOYAH!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
     
  22. Lavndrrose

    Lavndrrose Senior Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2002
    Messages:
    802
    Likes Received:
    0
    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by ussdfiant:
    I know I will love medicine, but I love providing for my family too</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Uh, don't you mean Tori Spelling? :D
     
  23. ussdfiant

    Physician Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2001
    Messages:
    1,623
    Likes Received:
    9
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Lavndrrose:
    <strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by ussdfiant:
    I know I will love medicine, but I love providing for my family too</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Uh, don't you mean Tori Spelling? :D </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Don't get me started! :mad:
     
  24. Trek

    Trek Grand Uranium Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2001
    Messages:
    1,722
    Likes Received:
    1
    No I wouldn't apply. So? --Trek
     
  25. Lavndrrose

    Lavndrrose Senior Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2002
    Messages:
    802
    Likes Received:
    0
    ussdfiant, why the angry face, buddy? :confused:

    I thought you had a thing for Miss Spelling? :D
     
  26. ussdfiant

    Physician Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2001
    Messages:
    1,623
    Likes Received:
    9
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Lavndrrose:
    <strong>ussdfiant, why the angry face, buddy? :confused:

    I thought you had a thing for Miss Spelling? :D </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sorry, I thought that you were baiting me like those motherless rat fu(ks (I love Bound) in the Lounge :)

    You are right, it's all for Tori <img border="0" alt="[Lovey]" title="" src="graemlins/lovey.gif" />
     
  27. Zeffer

    Zeffer "My dog ate em. I swear thats the truth!"
    Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2002
    Messages:
    138
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    rxfudd, you restore my faith in the pre med group. So many people believe you should be ashamed if money is a factor in your decision to enter medicine. Well I think those are the people that can't score the grades or MCAT to get in and this is the only way to cope that although you are getting in and they are not, they would be the better Doc.

    Believe me MD school is tough. I'm not beating the crap out of myself to turn around and get hosed on my income. Because I love Medicine, I am willing to settle for a meager $200,000/year. Yes $200,000 is meager when you consider the other possibilities available to those with enough drive and determination to get to Med School. For example; My bro is my equal in every way, I choose medicine, he went with MBA from Columbia. He is 3 yrs out and pulling in $6 million/yr. Does $200,000 sound meager now?

    Lets face it, many people aren't happy that others have more than them whether it be money, intelligence, prestige, or power. And they are willing to make others that have those things feel ashamed, in hopes of getting them to relinquish what they have, so they too get a piece of the pie.

    I could expound several other reasons to justify a doctors salary, but nobody has all day to read.
     
  28. otter

    otter Senior Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2001
    Messages:
    478
    Likes Received:
    1
    The hypothetical MD salary of &lt;50K is just not reasonable. If you take out full loan at a private medical school, you'd be paying back something like 30K/year of loan money for 20 years. How can your family survive on the remaining &lt;20K/year minus tax?! Even temp filing jobs pay much more than that.
     
  29. Hero

    Hero Senior Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,126
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by ussdfiant:
    <strong>Sorry, I thought that you were baiting me like those motherless rat fu(ks (I love Bound) in the Lounge :)

    You are right, it's all for Tori <img border="0" alt="[Lovey]" title="" src="graemlins/lovey.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><img src="http://a256.g.akamai.net/7/256/5527/V001/forums.fanhome.com/images/smilies/offtopic1.gif" alt="" /> : Who is this 'Tori Spelling' :confused: :confused:





    Back on topic: rxfudd, great post. Truth is if the pay is $50k/year I may do medicine as a hobby(if that is possible) and find some other means to support a family, buy a house, etc.
     
  30. Hero

    Hero Senior Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,126
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by marleybfour:
    <strong> Medicine ( and reimbursements) is not going to get better, only worse.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Medical reimbursements have been getting worse. But we are a very different generation of future doctors. The connective power of the internet will allow us to come up with the resources and talents needed to purge the leaching businessmen within the insurance companies.
     
  31. EMDrMoe

    EMDrMoe Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2001
    Messages:
    562
    Likes Received:
    2
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    I second that, Hero.

    rxfudd, you hit the nail on the head. thanks!
     
  32. Papa Smurf

    Papa Smurf Thug 4 Life
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2002
    Messages:
    1,903
    Likes Received:
    2
    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Trek:
    <strong>No I wouldn't apply. So? --Trek</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ooh!!! Just wait till Baylor finds out!!! I know they're gonna rescind your acceptance! I'll take it though, just coz I'm a nice guy! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
     
  33. izz-ay

    izz-ay Member extraordinaire
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    0
    WELL SAID Rxfudd!!! <img border="0" alt="[Clappy]" title="" src="graemlins/clappy.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Clappy]" title="" src="graemlins/clappy.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Clappy]" title="" src="graemlins/clappy.gif" />
    Appreciating the $$ because of all the $$ that you put into getting there IS NOT THE SAME as doing it FOR the money. As Zeffer so clearly pointed out, following the green stuff leads anywhere but medicine :( :( (esp. when you factor in the sacrifice)
     
  34. ValleyGal

    ValleyGal Senior Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2002
    Messages:
    272
    Likes Received:
    0
    You alls brains have clearly been fried though all the interviews, where we all swear up and down a devotion and love to medicine (which is true). but remember, there is nothing wrong with getting paid for your work. in fact, there is nothing wrong with getting paid lots and lots of money, especially if you are really good at what you do. people today piss me off because they almost feel guilty making money and they feel like they have to be some sort of martyr (sp?) by sacrificing themselves. what a load of bs. you all are the smartest, most driven people out there. you deserve to be compensated for your work, more so than do others who do not have the merit which doctors do. I love medicine and i am so excited to be a doctor because i love helping sick people, but i also fully intend to make a whole lot of money in the process. i am good and i deserve to be compensated, and to say it any other way would be pathetic and pointlessly self-sacrificial
     
  35. I don't think there is anything wrong with going into medicine primarily out of the motivation to make money. I just wish more med-students and doctors would be honest with themselves and others and admit that money is a big part of what motivates them, if not the biggest part.

    Also, many of you on this board have spoken as if doctors are entitled to the large salaries they make because of all the years of education and low-paying residencies they put up with. It is this sense of entitlement that irritates a lot of people. No one is entitled to a large salary just because they paid a lot for grad school and studied their butts off and put up with low salaries in the beginning. There are plenty of people with Ph.D's that have put up with as much grief as doctors and they will never see the salary of a doctor. So please stop all of the whining about being entitled to a large salary or deserving of a large salary. Lots of people "deserve" a large salary but will never get it.

    Some of you have also pointed out all of the debt that a med student incurs and that he will be almost 30 before he earns a "real" salary. You make it sound as if a doctor has made a huge sacrifice. If you're 30 when you start to earn a "real" salary that is MORE than enough time to pay off your med school debts. Your med school debts will be PEANUTS compared to the pile of money you have accumulated after 30 to 35 years of work. So please stop whining about the debt and that you will be 30 before you make a "real" salary. Boo-hoo. <img border="0" alt="[Pity]" title="" src="graemlins/pity.gif" />
     
  36. medicine2006

    medicine2006 Happy Pisces
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    1,929
    Likes Received:
    2
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by M. Scotch:
    <strong>I don't think there is anything wrong with going into medicine primarily out of the motivation to make money. I just wish more med-students and doctors would be honest with themselves and others and admit that money is a big part of what motivates them, if not the biggest part.

    Also, many of you on this board have spoken as if doctors are entitled to the large salaries they make because of all the years of education and low-paying residencies they put up with. It is this sense of entitlement that irritates a lot of people. No one is entitled to a large salary just because they paid a lot for grad school and studied their butts off and put up with low salaries in the beginning. There are plenty of people with Ph.D's that have put up with as much grief as doctors and they will never see the salary of a doctor. So please stop all of the whining about being entitled to a large salary or deserving of a large salary. Lots of people "deserve" a large salary but will never get it.

    Some of you have also pointed out all of the debt that a med student incurs and that he will be almost 30 before he earns a "real" salary. You make it sound as if a doctor has made a huge sacrifice. If you're 30 when you start to earn a "real" salary that is MORE than enough time to pay off your med school debts. Your med school debts will be PEANUTS compared to the pile of money you have accumulated after 30 to 35 years of work. So please stop whining about the debt and that you will be 30 before you make a "real" salary. Boo-hoo. <img border="0" alt="[Pity]" title="" src="graemlins/pity.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You think you are so smart don't you? Dissing people for thinking they are entittled to a high pay. Health care expenditure in this country alone is in the hundred of billions of dollars if not trillions. Doctors are the the principle players in treating patients. Shouldn't they be compensated a larger piece of the health care pie than some no talent executive or hospital administrator? Also there is a supply and demand thing. PhDs are a dime a dozen in this world. Although they maybe smart and put a lot of time into school their pay is low because of economics of academia. Physicians on the other hand are needed more immediately by the public. People you should be able to whine about not getting paid enough. Physicians in many areas are grossly underpaid and you are a prick for suggesting that they should be happy with low compensation and high debt!

    I would like to re-iterate that I personally am gonna go to a low paying specialty (internal med) and want to help the underserved but I am not against people who want to earn a decent living and enjoy just compensation.
     
  37. rxfudd

    rxfudd 1K Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2001
    Messages:
    1,343
    Likes Received:
    4
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    <strong>There are plenty of people with Ph.D's that have put up with as much grief as doctors and they will never see the salary of a doctor.</strong>

    Paying for grad school on your own is nearly unheard of nowadays. Every graduate program in the country offers tuition wavers for TAships and RAships. Perhaps one out of a hundred grad students will not want to do a TAship and end up paying for it on their own (which is by their own choice). And they also usually get a nice little stipend (usually about $16,000 per year).

    And are PhD's faced with several superfluous lawsuits a year which are often settled at their expense? Do they pay an average of $10K-$25K each year in malpractice premiums, depending on the specialty? I'm not saying that PhDs are not deserving of the money. I certainly am not questioning their extent of knowledge or the difficulty of the PhD program. In fact, I never used EITHER of those as reasons docs should make high salaries. I am saying that there are expenses and sacrificies that physicans have that PhDs (and many other professions) do not have.

    And don't make it out like PhDs don't make good money. Although there are many who make no more than $30K-$50K per year, there are also many who make upwards of $150K per year (both in academia and industry). And with no student loans or malpractice insurance. Boo-hoo. <img border="0" alt="[Pity]" title="" src="graemlins/pity.gif" />

    <strong>Your med school debts will be PEANUTS compared to the pile of money you have accumulated after 30 to 35 years of work.</strong>

    Anyone who has done any amount of research into financial issues (or who has taken a basic calculus or economics course) knows that beginning a savings program (IRA, 401K) when you are in your early twenties can nearly double the amount of your savings when you are entering retirement. Some kid coming out of an MBA program when he's 23-24 making $50K per year has a hell of a start on docs, who really won't be able to start any serious savings until a decade later. This can mean hundreds of thousands of dollars. Do the math.

    <strong>So please stop whining about the debt and that you will be 30 before you make a "real" salary. Boo-hoo. <img border="0" alt="[Pity]" title="" src="graemlins/pity.gif" /> </strong>

    Seems that you're the only one who is whining. I simply presented the argument that docs don't make NEARLY as much as most people assume. There are good reasons that they need to make as much as they do if they are to stay competitive with the salaries of other professions. Docs are not the only ones making big money, but they are the only ones subject to the expenses I listed above.

    People do not have to sign the contracts they are given post-residency. They can surely decide to accept less money if they wanted to (I'm sure the hospitals would have no problem with this). Obviously, no one does this, and for good reasons - you are in a CAREER to make money. Everyone should love their career. But if people ONLY did what they do because they had passion for it, we'd all be musicians, artists, and actors.
     
  38. &lt;b&gt;You think you are so smart don't you? Dissing people for thinking they are entittled to a high pay. Health care expenditure in this country alone is in the hundred of billions of dollars if not trillions. Doctors are the the principle players in treating patients. Shouldn't they be compensated a larger piece of the health care pie than some no talent executive or hospital administrator?&lt;/b&gt;

    I never said a thing about "no talent" executives or hospital administrators. In fact, if you read my post carefully you'd realize I never said doctors shouldn't earn the high salaries that they do.
     
  39. brickmanli

    brickmanli Senior Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2002
    Messages:
    216
    Likes Received:
    7
    With crappy pay, doctors would be crappy too. Look at teachers and social workers. They should lower the tuition though because we're being forced to become specialists.
     
  40. "Some kid coming out of an MBA program when he's 23-24 making $50K per year has a hell of a start on docs, who really won't be able to start any serious savings until a decade later. This can mean hundreds of thousands of dollars. Do the math."

    You do the math. First of all, what person with an MBA can start at age 23 to 24? Most business schools want their students to have 4 to 5 years of business experience before applying. Secondly, a doctor is going to be making WELL over 100,000 dollars a year and will therefore be able to put the max (roughly $11,000) into a 403(b) each year which means more tax-deferred dollars (the most important) than someone who makes a lesser salary. The doc will also be able to contribute the max each year to an IRA, also tax-deferred, whereas someone with a lesser salary can't make the same promise.

    Take ANY career in the United States and take the average pay in that career and then compare it to the average doctor. The doctor will come out on top every time despite having started later. And I'm not talking about picking out some obscure career that only a dozen people occupy. Go to the Bureau of Labor Statistics site and look at the highest paying occupations in the United States. Doctors blow everyone away and they will have more money at retirement than any of the other careers despite having started later.

    Don't kid yourself. MBA's aren't going to beat docs on average. Lawyers aren't going to beat docs on average. Maybe YOU personally could have made more money in the long run with an MBA but we're talking averages here, not single cases.

    I fail to see how pointing out these simples truths qualifies as whining. Maybe docs don't like it when it's pointed out that they really didn't make that great a sacrifice. Medicine is the surest road to wealth in the United States and smart people know this.
     
  41. "Docs are not the only ones making big money, but they are the only ones subject to the expenses I listed above."

    Doctors are the highest paid of any profession in the United States. On average they earn $160,000 a year. And that was in 1998. Dentists are next. Then airline pilots. Then lawyers and lawyers make $72,000! LESS on average than a doctor. <a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/" target="_blank">http://www.bls.gov/oco/</a>

    So is that $160,000 figure before or after you subtract "the expenses [you] listed above?" I'm pretty sure it's after.
     
  42. rxfudd

    rxfudd 1K Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2001
    Messages:
    1,343
    Likes Received:
    4
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    <strong>You do the math. First of all, what person with an MBA can start at age 23 to 24? Most business schools want their students to have 4 to 5 years of business experience before applying. Secondly, a doctor is going to be making WELL over 100,000 dollars a year and will therefore be able to put the max (roughly $11,000) into a 403(b) each year which means more tax-deferred dollars (the most important) than someone who makes a lesser salary. The doc will also be able to contribute the max each year to an IRA, also tax-deferred, whereas someone with a lesser salary can't make the same promise.</strong>

    I'm not going to argue with you on this because you clearly know more about it than I. However, I do have a problem with some of your other points.

    <strong>Don't kid yourself. MBA's aren't going to beat docs on average. Lawyers aren't going to beat docs on average.</strong>

    This is COMPLETELY determined by how hard you want to work. Want to just sort of screw around? Become a public defender. Sure, you won't be making as much as a doc, but you won't be sacrificing much either. This all comes back to my initial point - docs sacrifice a LOT. What lawyer or PhD has to work on Christmas? At night? On birthdays? I won't go into the point about superfluous lawsuits again, because I think my point is well made.

    <strong>Maybe docs don't like it when it's pointed out that they really didn't make that great a sacrifice.</strong>

    I don't get it - are you even applying to or in medical school? I find it almost shameful that you would go into this career without understanding the sacrifices you are or will be making. There are few careers where one has to sacrifice as much. Trial lawyers, who may have someone's freedom (or life) in their hands, are as well paid as docs. National politicians, who are responsible for the well being of the society, often make upwards of $200K. What links all of these careers is that they sacrifice a great deal to do what they do. When you are in surgery 12 hours on your kid's birthday trying to save someone and they don't make, and THEN you get hit with a mutlimillion dollar lawsuit because you weren't "good enough" (even though you did more than most docs might have been able to do), come back and tell me how little doctors sacrifice.

    <strong>Medicine is the surest road to wealth in the United States and smart people know this.</strong>

    Yes, but not by any means the easiest.
     
  43. rxfudd

    rxfudd 1K Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2001
    Messages:
    1,343
    Likes Received:
    4
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by M. Scotch:
    <strong>So is that $160,000 figure before or after you subtract "the expenses [you] listed above?" I'm pretty sure it's after.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, it is before malpractice premiums and loan payments. Where in the world did you get the idea that it's after? If someone asked you how much you made, would you mentally subtract all of your expenses and tell them what your net takehome pay was? And by the way, that $160K is also before taxes.

    So, $160K - appx $45K (taxes) - avg $15K (insurance) - avg $20K (loans) = $80,000 per year net takehome pay. And remember that half of all docs are making LESS than $160K (usually primary care and FP). There's a good reason so many people are specializing nowadays.

    So $160K is not really $160K.

    I'm done arguing this point. I think you may be the only person I've ever met on these forums who feel that docs don't sacrifice - given that, it's somewhat pointless to continue this.
     
  44. marleybfour

    marleybfour Senior Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2001
    Messages:
    145
    Likes Received:
    0
    Heelpain,
    These doctors may not accept a phone call from a patient, but they ARE on call for a nurse. If they have a patient in the hospital and I need an order for something, or their patient isn't doing well they will be called.

    They have the option of getting another doctor to take call for them sometimes, but doctors typically rotate and help each other out. No doctor with a patient in the hospital ever has the luxury of not being on call.
     
  45. Legend

    Legend Super Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2001
    Messages:
    860
    Likes Received:
    1
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    I started a poll on this topic.
    Vote if you are interested.
     
  46. Zeffer

    Zeffer "My dog ate em. I swear thats the truth!"
    Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2002
    Messages:
    138
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Heelpain, Would you expand on some of your previous posts. I don't fully grasp what you are trying to get at. Also I don't know any PHD's that work on holidays. I do know a vast amount of MD's that do. Maybe it's pure chance thats how it has worked out for me, but I doubt it. As for your psychologist/crisis call remark after I stop laughing I might address it.

    Rx, I think scotch is just trying to get you going or else he is not far along in the medschool process. I know from first hand experience that I have and continue to sacrifice a great deal for my MD. But as for MBA there is no set road for getting it and making big money. I do know that when they find their jackpot they really score.

    I'm through laughing heelpain. Sorry for the delay. I know for a fact that MD's take more calls, deal with more issues, and have less freetime than a psychologist.
     
  47. "No, it is before malpractice premiums and loan payments. Where in the world did you get the idea that it's after? If someone asked you how much you made, would you mentally subtract all of your expenses and tell them what your net takehome pay was? And by the way, that $160K is also before taxes."

    First of all, I know that the $160K figure is before taxes. I also know that it is before you subtract personal expenses such as loan payments. However, you are wrong when you say it is also before you subtract job-related expenses such as malpractice premiums. We're not talking here about personal expenses such as buying a cheeseburger at McDonald's. We're talking about expenses that are job-related and the Bureau of Labor Statistics is going to subtract such job-related expenses before they determine the salary.

    When the Bureau lists a salary for a profession then that is the average take-home pay of people in that profession.

    I'm not saying any of this because I want to have some petty argument with you. If you think that the $160K figure is before job-related expenses have been subtracted then you are sadly misinformed as to the salary of physicians.
     
  48. By the way, I fully realize that people that go into medicine sacrifice their time and well-being. I never said they don't make ANY sacrifices. When I've spoken of sacrifice in this thread I am speaking purely in terms of financial sacrifice. It is misleading to say that people make a financial sacrifice in the pursuit of becoming a physician. Physicians have the ability to build a bigger nest egg for retirement than any other profession in the United States. And again, I'm speaking in terms of AVERAGE salaries for occupations.
     
  49. Zeffer

    Zeffer "My dog ate em. I swear thats the truth!"
    Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2002
    Messages:
    138
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    I'm still luaghing. Did they teach you to retort in any of your college classes? I never said that psychologists don't take crisis calls. Post my quote where I say that! What I did say was That I know MD's take alot more calls on their off time and have less free time. This is one of the advantages of entering the field of Psychology.
     
  50. Zeffer

    Zeffer "My dog ate em. I swear thats the truth!"
    Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2002
    Messages:
    138
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    As for the idiot comment.....I'm still laughing at you. We both know that by the quality of posting who the better is.

    Am I a medical/college/high school student? I'm not sure yet, but maybe we can figure it out together.
     

Share This Page