If there are so many miserable doctors, why are you guys entering this field?

[bc65]

Also, you have a right to be bitter about life, your job, going into medicine, whatever, but don't deny that you were idealistic as a premed too.

Of course almost all doctors were idealistic as pre-meds. Otherwise they wouldn't have gone to med school.
But idealism doesn't have to be synonymous with naivete or ignorance.

The point is there are different stages of life, and until we premeds have gotten to the stage where we are "supposed" to start feeling all bitter, there is no point feeling that way now when we have not experienced anything to make us feel that way!

Of course you're not disgruntled and bitter now.
But that's precisely why people who have actually been there are giving you the reasons why you might be unhappy in the future.

Look at the surveys of physicians. Almost half wouldn't go into medicine again. Of course, the other half would. Which half will you be in? Everyone thinks that they will be the winner. That's why people buy lottery tickets.

I was warned by a med student before I applied, and I was warned by two friends who were in medical school when I interviewed at their schools. I didn't listen to them, but I'm very grateful to all of them for warning me. At least I know that I had all the information, and it was my own decision to ignore it. I'm passing along the favor by warning you.

I'm not sure that I wouldn't do it again, but I would think long and hard about the alternatives first.

Instead of telling people that they are wrong when they give you advice you don't want to hear, I try to figure out why they're saying what they're saying, and maybe try to learn something. It's better to learn from other people's mistakes than to learn from your own.

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[Glazedonutlove]

Of course almost all doctors were idealistic as pre-meds. Otherwise they wouldn't have gone to med school.
But idealism doesn't have to be synonymous with naivete or ignorance.



Of course you're not disgruntled and bitter now.
But that's precisely why people who have actually been there are giving you the reasons why you might be unhappy in the future.

Look at the surveys of physicians. Almost half wouldn't go into medicine again. Of course, the other half would. Which half will you be in? Everyone thinks that they will be the winner. That's why people buy lottery tickets.

I was warned by a med student before I applied, and I was warned by two friends who were in medical school when I interviewed at their schools. I didn't listen to them, but I'm very grateful to all of them for warning me. At least I know that I had all the information, and it was my own decision to ignore it. I'm passing along the favor by warning you.

I'm not sure that I wouldn't do it again, but I would think long and hard about the alternatives first.

Instead of telling people that they are wrong when they give you advice you don't want to hear, I try to figure out why they're saying what they're saying, and maybe try to learn something. It's better to learn from other people's mistakes than to learn from your own.

I appreciate everyone's opinions/advice who is more experienced, including yours. However, it is not right to discourage people's ambitions/dreams. No, I am not referring to naive premeds who want to save the world and have truly unrealistic expectations, but small goals like being inclusive of variety of patients as someone mentioned- that's not so unrealistic that people had to cut them down. You posted the stats about the 50% being unhappy, but it seems that only the unhappy ones are posting here. I think we would all like to hear something good that made you want to continue this path despite the negative aspects of it.

 

[bc65]

it is not right to discourage people's ambitions/dreams.

I'm not trying to discourage you. This is called "informed consent". There are plenty of patients who don't want to hear that things can go wrong, only to profess shock when complications ensue. If you don't want to hear that your expectations might be unrealistic and that you may not be happy, that's your choice. But 20 years from now, remember that you were warned.

Please note that the original question that started this thread was "If there are so many miserable doctors , why are you guys entering this field?". The answer is because pre-meds don't listen to those who have gone before, or assume that what applied to so many others won't apply to them.

 

[vantheman]

Is it weird my parents try to persuade me NOT to go into medicine?

 

[md-2020]

Is it weird my parents try to persuade me NOT to go into medicine?

No.

My doc parents tried long and hard to talk me out of it.

 

[vantheman]

No.

My doc parents tried long and hard to talk me out of it.

My parents aren't doctors. they think I have better opportunities and options available. They think I am making a bad choice choosing something that requires so much time and money before I will become successful.

 

[md-2020]

My parents aren't doctors. they think I have better opportunities and options available. They think I am making a bad choice choosing something that requires so much time and money before I will become successful.

It really depends on what you value. No profession is perfect, and it really just depends on what you're looking for in life. For medicine, you really have to be okay with the learning curve, which I (and many other pre-meds) are. The cost is definitely prohibitive, but then again grad, law, and B-school ain't cheap either.

Medicine also offers great compensation, stability, and is still more respected than most other professions. Before someone spouts the "can't do it for the money, gotta love the calling" line, ask yourself this: "seriously?"

 

[Rintintin15]

Yeah, i hear you. Medicine seems pretty demanding, and I don't mean just intellectually I mean physically too. Otherwise physicists would have the most demanding job, but from a physical standpoint it's much more laid back. I mean most scientists get to work 9 to 5 or a variation thereof. Physicians tend to work around the clock, sometimes going days without sleeping. That has to take a toll on the body and age you to some degree. I don't have great health so I'm not sure I could handle a call-heavy residency from a physical standpoint.

As for why people keep entering the field? Some have vocation, but others are drawn by the salary and that has its dark side. When you have an accupation that pays at least twice what a phycisist or other scientists at the doctoral level can hope to make, that's going to attract its share of ruthless and status seeking types. It's inevitable. Not saying that's the majority of us here, plus it's okay to consider salary when choosing a career, especially if you're poor and want to break the cycle of low SES, but such high salaries WILL attract status seeking low empathy types (f.e clinical narcissists) in addition to normals who want a better life while also helping others.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

I'm not trying to discourage you. This is called "informed consent". There are plenty of patients who don't want to hear that things can go wrong, only to profess shock when complications ensue. If you don't want to hear that your expectations might be unrealistic and that you may not be happy, that's your choice. But 20 years from now, remember that you were warned.

Please note that the original question that started this thread was "If there are so many miserable doctors , why are you guys entering this field?". The answer is because pre-meds don't listen to those who have gone before, or assume that what applied to so many others won't apply to them.

It's possible that some of the "miserable physicians" are unhappy because they chose the wrong specialty.

 

[Psai]

You're an obnoxiously superior person. You believe that since you're a medical student, you reserve the right to come to pre-allo, find those among us with even the slightest sense of idealism and call us all stupid kids with idiotic opinions, as if you're so uniquely self aware and qualified to critique the impression of medicine that some maintain. All I'd really have to say to someone with your sense of superiority, someone who gets off to degrading the endeavors of others, if I had the opportunity to say it to your face is "p1ss off. You don't reserve the right to dog people for their perceived misconceptions"
Unfortunately there are a million just like you.

No it's because i have some experience with the system and you have none. I'm trying to help you but you're too ignorant to understand, just too busy feeling angry about your hurt feelings

 

[deleted407021]

No it's because i have some experience with the system and you have none. I'm trying to help you but you're too ignorant to understand, just too busy feeling angry about your hurt feelings

More likely you're engaging in image maintenance by saying "lol premed". It makes you feel better about your own position. My feelings aren't hurt, I'm pointing out a self-important regressive when I see one.

 

[Stagg737]

Not all idealistic pre-meds become disillusioned and apathetic.

Bullying premeds is petty.

No, but all of them that make it will have their eyes opened to the reality of medicine, which is significantly less fantastic than the vast majority envision it being when they start. It doesn't necessarily mean that they'll become apathetic, but unless one has extensive experience in healthcare before med school (which most pre-meds don't), most of them don't know what they're getting themselves into. Even then, med school and residency are completely different than anything most people ever go through.

It was more interesting when Dermviser was around. He'd take on like 5 pre-meds at once.

Yea, those were fun times. Despite how much I disliked derm, it was always interesting when they started commenting.

We're so lucky to have someone like you who can keep us silly little premeds grounded! You're so much more self aware than us dumb kids. You should broadcast that more!

Let's be honest for a minute though, for every educated pre-med on here, there's at least 5-10 that are completely clueless, and about half of those pre-meds try giving out advice to others that is flat out wrong. I'm sure you've noticed, but it sometimes it gets tiring and annoying reading the same threads over and over written by different pre-meds that didn't know how to use the search bar.

 

[Psai]

More likely you're engaging in image maintenance by saying "lol premed". It makes you feel better about your own position. My feelings aren't hurt, I'm pointing out a self-important regressive when I see one.

Lol premed trying too hard to sound smart

 

[deleted407021]

Lol premed trying too hard to sound smart

Case in point. Yay!

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

@J Senpai, you know med students are tha only real Gs in this forum. So stop tryin' to act hard.

 

[deleted407021]

@J Senpai, you know med students are tha only real Gs in this forum. So stop tryin' to act hard.
View attachment 195366

im so g u dnt evn no

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

im so g u dnt evn no

Reported this post 'cause youz an OG

 

[deleted407021]

Reported this post 'cause youz an OG

If u wasn't gonna send a T1000 after me I'd bust a cap in yo azz

 

[Holmwood]

I think the thread has failed its initial purpose. You're not going to find much useful information from here, but I'm sure we're grateful for the attendings who've caught wind and tried to give their input.

I recommend restarting the thread in the allopathic thread and asking those folks how they've come to terms with or enjoyed continuing their practice despite the following:
1) Issues with defensive medicine and liability
2) Issues with government regulations/restrictions on social health care programs such as Medicaid
3) Issues with changing reimbursements
4) Issues with ridiculous amount of paperwork
5) Issues with starting their practice in their 30s
6) Etc

If we can compile all the input and sticky it in the pre-allo and pre-osteo sections, I think it'll help pre-meds self-screen themselves out of the medical process, or strengthen their resolve to collaborate with their mentors/colleagues to address some of these issues starting from the educational setting.

 

[getdown]

You don't have to do everything by yourself... and you don't have to throw an insane amount of cash on it. There are communities of physicians and other medical workers banding together RIGHT NOW trying to produce relatively small but nonetheless meaningful changes for the patients. Some of these efforts include research for cost-effective screening, providing transportation for disadvantaged populations to local hospitals, experiments on flat-payment models of care, workshops on understanding health disparities research fallacies, changing ridiculous patient attire in a single hospital, etc.

Idealism is "bad" in a sense that it is defined as such: "the practice of forming or pursuing ideals, especially unrealistically."

Yet, idealistic premeds will not remain idealistic when they are given sufficient knowledge and support to devise some sort of plan to work with their medical community and contribute similarly small but significant changes as an attending physician. Individuals such as yourself are keen on bullying (or in your words "parenting") premeds before they even start their medical training or make realistic plans, which I find unfortunate. That is what I mean by stifling innovation.

I agree that there are people out there trying to change the system but the key word you mentioned yourself is "trying". Ultimately to really affect meaningful change it's going to require money since the business aspect of medicine is too profitable for some groups that will fight tooth and nail to keep the status quo. Furthermore, the list that you typed out will help patient experience and exposure to health care but still doesn't address the ultimate problem which is money. Hospital administrators control everything and they will sacrifice patient care and physician happiness for the bottom line. That's where all the unhappiness and resentment comes from.

What I'm particularly unhappy about is that you immediately assume that I'm bullying. Where in my previous post did I "bully" you. I guess if you define "bullying" as disagreeing with your preconceived notion of how medicine is, then yes I would be a bully. What I did was to give you advice and forewarning of how things are and to try to tell you that what you're expecting is not very realistic. You don't have the type of independence you're thinking about even as an attending physician since you're ultimately going to have to answer to some bean counter unless you work in a free clinic or alone. Both of which are not ideal since the former will pay you nothing to repay your hundreds of thousands of school loans and the latter is nearly impossible now when you consider insurance reimbursements.

As an aside I don't understand why this is an argument in the first place. The initial question is "why if there are so many miserable doctors, do people keep becoming doctors" but when actual doctors and medical students give you a realistic account some here are up in arms arguing back when they have not even had first hand experience with the system. Almost all the posters who are in the medical field have given nearly similar messages but some continue to argue against it. Just putting it in perspective.

 

[getdown]

I think the thread has failed its initial purpose. You're not going to find much useful information from here, but I'm sure we're grateful for the attendings who've caught wind and tried to give their input.

I recommend restarting the thread in the allopathic thread and asking those folks how they've come to terms with or enjoyed continuing their practice despite the following:
1) Issues with defensive medicine and liability
2) Issues with government regulations/restrictions on social health care programs such as Medicaid
3) Issues with changing reimbursements
4) Issues with ridiculous amount of paperwork
5) Issues with starting their practice in their 30s
6) Etc

If we can compile all the input and sticky it in the pre-allo and pre-osteo sections, I think it'll help pre-meds self-screen themselves out of the medical process, or strengthen their resolve to collaborate with their mentors/colleagues to address some of these issues starting from the educational setting.

You should do that. I'd be very interested in seeing if putting this question in the allopathic thread changes the responses you get.

 

[NeuResurgens]

Lol, here's an example:
Think medical school is for you? You’re probably wrong

Nice. I feel like this sort of thing is just ingrained in the medical culture to some degree.

Because you have a lot of dumb opinions

Yes, we do, but when faced with a dumb opinion most people generally leave the issue alone rather than persist in fighting about it. If premed opinions are so dumb, med students and residents really have nothing to prove by arguing with them. Some people claim it's to "help us" by getting us to see how our bad opinions will hurt us in the end, but those with whom that's really the case generally don't attempt to be insulting (like many people who get in fights in pre-allo end up doing)

 

[frosted_flake]

Maybe they were miserable because they were at Church and not at home sleeping? I always have a super obvious resting btch face when I am forced to go to church. Especially because I am not the slightest bit religious/spiritual.

 

[NeuResurgens]

I think the thread has failed its initial purpose. You're not going to find much useful information from here, but I'm sure we're grateful for the attendings who've caught wind and tried to give their input.

I recommend restarting the thread in the allopathic thread and asking those folks how they've come to terms with or enjoyed continuing their practice despite the following:
1) Issues with defensive medicine and liability
2) Issues with government regulations/restrictions on social health care programs such as Medicaid
3) Issues with changing reimbursements
4) Issues with ridiculous amount of paperwork
5) Issues with starting their practice in their 30s
6) Etc

If we can compile all the input and sticky it in the pre-allo and pre-osteo sections, I think it'll help pre-meds self-screen themselves out of the medical process, or strengthen their resolve to collaborate with their mentors/colleagues to address some of these issues starting from the educational setting.

Agreed. I feel like many of the posts in pre-allo devolve into a bickering match these days. Getting some reliable quotes from a good number of sources would be great in helping people come to terms with some of the more challenging aspects of medicine.

 

[Holmwood]

I agree that there are people out there trying to change the system but the key word you mentioned yourself is "trying". Ultimately to really affect meaningful change it's going to require money since the business aspect of medicine is too profitable for some groups that will fight tooth and nail to keep the status quo. Furthermore, the list that you typed out will help patient experience and exposure to health care but still doesn't address the ultimate problem which is money. Hospital administrators control everything and they will sacrifice patient care and physician happiness for the bottom line. That's where all the unhappiness and resentment comes from.

What I'm particularly unhappy about is that you immediately assume that I'm bullying. Where in my previous post did I "bully" you. I guess if you define "bullying" as disagreeing with your preconceived notion of how medicine is, then yes I would be a bully. What I did was to give you advice and forewarning of how things are and to try to tell you that what you're expecting is not very realistic. You don't have the type of independence you're thinking about even as an attending physician since you're ultimately going to have to answer to some bean counter unless you work in a free clinic or alone. Both of which are not ideal since the former will pay you nothing to repay your hundreds of thousands of school loans and the latter is nearly impossible now when you consider insurance reimbursements.

As an aside I don't understand why this is an argument in the first place. The initial question is "why if there are so many miserable doctors, do people keep becoming doctors" but when actual doctors and medical students give you a realistic account some here are up in arms arguing back when they have not even had first had experience with the system. Almost all the posters who are in the medical field have given nearly similar messages but some continue to argue against it. Just putting it in perspective.

Allow me to reclarify.

Those who've contributed to significant changes in the medical field all started out as idealistic premeds at one point in their life. Not all idealists become innovators or accomplished advocates when confronted with the challenge, but some do. Not all physician innovators produce changes on the magnitude of rehauling the medical system, but some have in the past. That is why I wanted to give fellow premeds the benefit of the doubt regardless of how idealistic they may seem, because I know nothing about their background and what they are capable of in the future.

In contrast, cynics with no ideas of their own that stifle the ideas of others do not have the potential to produce anything comparison. That was why I wanted those who had "nothing to contribute", such as the trolls and griefers, to just leave. It has nothing to do with ignoring the advice of others. There's been alot of great advice by individuals such as @Law2Doc and @bc65 that temper overt optimism, and I'm sure the premeds here have taken what they've said to heart. But they didn't resort to overt name-calling to make their point.

In contrast, there's been a lot of "lol typical premed"-type condescending remarks that's been aimed at premeds in this thread. Know that it's difficult for anyone, not only premeds, to accept the advice of someone who starts their discussion off with a confrontation. Deep down, it's the person we have issues with and not the overall message.

All opinions are valid when given respectfully. Perhaps I overreacted to you calling me arrogant and an idealist given how little you know about my thoughts and motivations, and I apologize. Deep down, we both want more humane treatment of physicians and other medical workers without compromising the wellbeing of patients and other external parties. That is why I want all of us to shake hands and continue this discussion respectfully with the hope of brainstorming possible solutions with more input from those who've experience the system firsthand (maybe in the allopathic section).

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Yeah, this mainly happens because members here see every thread as a potential way to inflate their own ego. Pretty sad honestly. If a thread asks a simple question, it's almost guaranteed that someone will make some derogatory statement. This leads to someone else (usually OP) getting angry, and the whole thread just falls apart.

For example, imagine a thread asking "Does it hurt to take a prereq at a different school?" A simple and innocent question, but you know that some of the responses will be "stop being so lazy and just take the class at your school", "stop trying to cheat the system", "lol you'll never be a good doctor with that mindset". It would be nice if people JUST answered the question. But no, the people at SDN seem to leap at any opportunity to show off how superior and witty they are on an internet forum.

Additionally, I think some people respond to innocent questions with toxicity because they may have unnecessarily suffered through a pre-req or whatever and feel that it's only right for others to have a similar experience.

 

[NotYou20]

These are fine secondary reasons, but if you don't like the job function, hoping to become a role model isn't going to get you through months of overnights on the wards or make you not dread the 5 am alarm clock each Monday morning throughout residency. You won't really be more of a role model than the NP working at the CVS Minute Clinic anyhow -- both of you wear a white coat and stethoscope to work and garner about the same "respect" from your patients. Truth of the matter is you can probably be a role model and teach in any field. To be happy in a field where you invest so much of your time and life as medicine, you have to actually like the work, not some external benefit like how you hope others perceive you.

Could you further explain how a pre-med would understand whether or not he would like the job. What kinds of things (that a premed could understand) would indicate a good fit when shadowing a FP, for example? What do you enjoy about the job of being a physician (generalities preferred over things specific to your specialty)?

 

[mrspecialist]

A family friend, who is a radiologist, is making 600k a year. Pretty good enough reason. Suck it up.

 

[Law2Doc]

A family friend, who is a radiologist, is making 600k a year. Pretty good enough reason. Suck it up.

Meh, that's a specialty with an ugly job market right now. For every fat cat doing well there's someone in a protracted job search or having to relocate to a less popular part of the country for work.

There are outliers in every field. Most of my old bosses in law have multimillion dollar incomes but I think most on here realize that that doesn't mean your going to law school guarantees anything close to that.

 

[Law2Doc]

Could you further explain how a pre-med would understand whether or not he would like the job. What kinds of things (that a premed could understand) would indicate a good fit when shadowing a FP, for example? What do you enjoy about the job of being a physician (generalities preferred over things specific to your specialty)?

You need to do a ton of shadowing and volunteering and see what doctors actually do all day (and sometimes all night) and find a role that also lets you get up close and personal with patients. There's no way around this. These ECs shouldn't be things you do just to check a box on an application -- they are supposed to help you know what you are getting yourself into so you can make an informed decision.

 

[Daneosaurus]

...and in accordance with many of the surveys out there on physician job satisfaction, I'm in Derm...just finished residency.

I may not be saving lives on a daily basis, but saving lives isn't really what makes me happy. It makes me happy to see other people (and pts) be happy.

I'm a very visual person so it makes sense to do something that I can outright see (opposed to say managing someone's blood sugar). People who have messed up skin are unhappy...when I help their skin get better, they look better and feel better (physically and mentally). When patients come back and thank you for helping them out it's just really satisfying...at least for me. Not just job satisfaction, but like life satisfaction...knowing people are doing better and are at least a bit happier in one aspect of their life due to what I do for them.

No complaints here.

There are always people who can't be helped or don't want to be helped...but every specialty has that. Ya just gotta do your best, express to the pt you did/are doing your best, and just accept it and help the pt accept it the best they can.

This is actually why I fell in love dentistry. It's really "hands-on" as opposed to what primary care physicians do - with immediate, tangible results.

 

[Psai]

Man you guys kill me. Allo is for current med students. This thread does not belong in allo because op is not a med student

People go into medicine because they think they're going to save lives. Instead, much of their day will be filled with inane paperwork and unpleasant patients, many of whom don't belong in the hospital. In fact, a good portion of your salary will be based on if the overworked nurses responded to the patient's urgent call for a different television channel or if the turkey sandwich was warm enough rather than your knowledge and abilities as a physician. This is because administrators think they are running hotels, not hospitals. If you can't deal with a bruised ego and feelings of insecurity without trying to make up some narrative about other people in your head to make yourself feel better, do yourself a favor and pick a different field

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

People go into medicine because they think they're going to save lives. Instead, much of their day will be filled with inane paperwork and unpleasant patients, many of whom don't belong in the hospital. In fact, a good portion of your salary will be based on if the overworked nurses responded to the patient's urgent call for a different television channel or if the turkey sandwich was warm enough rather than your knowledge and abilities as a physician. This is because administrators think they are running hotels, not hospitals. If you can't deal with a bruised ego and feelings of insecurity without trying to make up some narrative about other people in your head to make yourself feel better, do yourself a favor and pick a different field

What exactly are you basing the bolded on? Has that really been your experience? I don't recall ever encountering someone who pursued medicine simply because they thought that "they're going to save lives."

 

[getdown]

Man you guys kill me. Allo is for current med students. This thread does not belong in allo because op is not a med student

People go into medicine because they think they're going to save lives. Instead, much of their day will be filled with inane paperwork and unpleasant patients, many of whom don't belong in the hospital. In fact, a good portion of your salary will be based on if the overworked nurses responded to the patient's urgent call for a different television channel or if the turkey sandwich was warm enough rather than your knowledge and abilities as a physician. This is because administrators think they are running hotels, not hospitals. If you can't deal with a bruised ego and feelings of insecurity without trying to make up some narrative about other people in your head to make yourself feel better, do yourself a favor and pick a different field

lol. let me guess. You sound like a 3rd year med student or newly minted 4th year. Am I right or am I right.

 

[Glazedonutlove]

What exactly are you basing the bolded on? Has that really been your experience? I don't recall ever encountering someone who pursued medicine simply because they thought that "they're going to save lives."

Maybe he is sharing his own experiences

 

[NeuResurgens]

Yeah, this mainly happens because members here see every thread as a potential way to inflate their own ego. Pretty sad honestly. If a thread asks a simple question, it's almost guaranteed that someone will make some derogatory statement. This leads to someone else (usually OP) getting angry, and the whole thread just falls apart.

For example, imagine a thread asking "Does it hurt to take a prereq at a different school?" A simple and innocent question, but you know that some of the responses will be "stop being so lazy and just take the class at your school", "stop trying to cheat the system", "lol you'll never be a good doctor with that mindset". It would be nice if people JUST answered the question. But no, the people at SDN seem to leap at any opportunity to show off how superior and witty they are on an internet forum.

Don't forget the "why didn't you just search it, you freaking dingbat" guy. While many simple questions would likely be solved by searching, SDN's search function has rarely, if ever, gotten me what I'm looking for outside of the most basic of inquiries. (And also, there are more polite ways to remind people to use the search)

Could you further explain how a pre-med would understand whether or not he would like the job. What kinds of things (that a premed could understand) would indicate a good fit when shadowing a FP, for example? What do you enjoy about the job of being a physician (generalities preferred over things specific to your specialty)?

It's hard to do. Shadowing and finding a job in a clinical environment are the best ways. If you can do something like EMT or CNA where you actually directly care for patients, that's even better. The problem is that you really can't *fully* understand what it's like to be a doctor until you are one. Luckily, many of the aforementioned extracurriculars can at least give you a general idea of whether you might like it or not.

 

[NeuResurgens]

Allow me to reclarify.

Those who've contributed to significant changes in the medical field all started out as idealistic premeds at one point in their life. Not all idealists become innovators or accomplished advocates when confronted with the challenge, but some do. Not all physician innovators produce changes on the magnitude of rehauling the medical system, but some have in the past. That is why I wanted to give fellow premeds the benefit of the doubt regardless of how idealistic they may seem, because I know nothing about their background and what they are capable of in the future.

In contrast, cynics with no ideas of their own that stifle the ideas of others do not have the potential to produce anything comparison. That was why I wanted those who had "nothing to contribute", such as the trolls and griefers, to just leave. It has nothing to do with ignoring the advice of others. There's been alot of great advice by individuals such as @Law2Doc and @bc65 that temper overt optimism, and I'm sure the premeds here have taken what they've said to heart. But they didn't resort to overt name-calling to make their point.

In contrast, there's been a lot of "lol typical premed"-type condescending remarks that's been aimed at premeds in this thread. Know that it's difficult for anyone, not only premeds, to accept the advice of someone who starts their discussion off with a confrontation. Deep down, it's the person we have issues with and not the overall message.

All opinions are valid when given respectfully. Perhaps I overreacted to you calling me arrogant and an idealist given how little you know about my thoughts and motivations, and I apologize. Deep down, we both want more humane treatment of physicians and other medical workers without compromising the wellbeing of patients and other external parties. That is why I want all of us to shake hands and continue this discussion respectfully with the hope of brainstorming possible solutions with more input from those who've experience the system firsthand (maybe in the allopathic section).

Agreed. The problem isn't disagreement. It's the way it's expressed

 

[Psai]

lol. let me guess. You sound like a 3rd year med student or newly minted 4th year. Am I right or am I right.

I mean there are only four possibilities in total and your guess included two of them but you're hedging your bets so you must be an im resident or radiologist

 

[NotYou20]

You need to do a ton of shadowing and volunteering and see what doctors actually do all day (and sometimes all night) and find a role that also lets you get up close and personal with patients. There's no way around this. These ECs shouldn't be things you do just to check a box on an application -- they are supposed to help you know what you are getting yourself into so you can make an informed decision.

Thanks for the response. I have taken both of those things seriously and I think I have a decent grasp of what doctors do. I've come away with the feeling that I can't really understand what it's like to practice medicine. For example, doing a h&p seems like something I'd enjoy doing. I can ask the doc to walk me through their thought process, but without doing it myself I'm kind of guessing.

It's hard to do. Shadowing and finding a job in a clinical environment are the best ways. If you can do something like EMT or CNA where you actually directly care for patients, that's even better. The problem is that you really can't *fully* understand what it's like to be a doctor until you are one. Luckily, many of the aforementioned extracurriculars can at least give you a general idea of whether you might like it or not.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I have pretty good clinical and shadowing experience. The bolded is how I feel and I was wondering if there was anything from these experiences that would be a good predictor other than liking my experience, and generally enjoying talking with people and explaining things to them.

 

[Law2Doc]

Thanks for the response. I have taken both of those things seriously and I think I have a decent grasp of what doctors do. I've come away with the feeling that I can't really understand what it's like to practice medicine. For example, doing a h&p seems like something I'd enjoy doing. I can ask the doc to walk me through their thought process, but without doing it myself I'm kind of guessing...

Don't worry so much about the thought process -- you'll learn to take H&Ps the right way in med school. But the question is did you like that interaction and dynamic, and could you see yourself doing that, not every now and then, but every 15-20 minutes over the course of a day? Because eg. A Private practice primary care doc might see many dozens of people a day, rapidly get histories or updates, do a quick physical exam, and send them on their way with a prescription and a follow-up appointment. You might want to shadow a variety of specialties if you can to get more of a sense of what doctors do. Again don't worry about knowing the doctors thought process or getting your technical skills up to speed -- you'll do all that in due time. Right no you want to figure out if the job function seems "fun" or interesting enough to make a career out if. It's truly not for everyone, so you need to see if it fits you. You still won't exactly know what doctors do, but you'll know more than you started with.

 

[NotYou20]

Don't worry so much about the thought process -- you'll learn to take H&Ps the right way in med school. But the question is did you like that interaction and dynamic, and could you see yourself doing that, not every now and then, but every 15-20 minutes over the course of a day? Because eg. A Private practice primary care doc might see many dozens of people a day, rapidly get histories or updates, do a quick physical exam, and send them on their way with a prescription and a follow-up appointment. You might want to shadow a variety of specialties if you can to get more of a sense of what doctors do. Again don't worry about knowing the doctors thought process or getting your technical skills up to speed -- you'll do all that in due time. Right no you want to figure out if the job function seems "fun" or interesting enough to make a career out if. It's truly not for everyone, so you need to see if it fits you. You still won't exactly know what doctors do, but you'll know more than you started with.

That's exactly what I've got out of it, thanks!

 

[getdown]

I mean there are only four possibilities in total and your guess included two of them but you're hedging your bets so you must be an im resident or radiologist

Fortunately neither of these.

 

[Hammer Time]

I read something somewhere that a study said above 150k the increase in wealth doesn't affect happiness..

Did you not read the original post? That number is down at $65,000 to $75,000 for most states.

 

[Hammer Time]

The original question was: Why do doctors keep entering the field?

1. Because everyone ignores all the advice to the contrary, because everyone thinks they "are above average", and they are doing it for the right reasons, and will live happily every after, not like all those other people who did it for the wrong reasons. " All those doctors with 10, 20, 30 years of experience couldn't possibly know what they are talking about, because they are not sincere, dedicated, and informed the way I am at 20". In finance, this takes the form of "this time it's different".

I think you are spot on. Something that a lot of people on here won't admit to, or are still in denial about.

 

[Hammer Time]

I find it funny that research has been done that increasing income over roughly $75,000 won't increase your happiness, yet so many premeds on here are still insisting that it will. I also find it funny that I asked for reasons other than financial ones that influence their decision to go into medicine, and many of you are still listing financial reasons for reasons of wanting to go into medicine.

 

[Law2Doc]

I find it funny that research has been done that increasing income over roughly $75,000 won't increase your happiness, yet so many premeds on here are still insisting that it will. I also find it funny that I asked for reasons other than financial ones that influence their decision to go into medicine, and many of you are still listing financial reasons for reasons of wanting to go into medicine.

Money is only a draw until you have a little, then it's more of a handcuff. Premeds without money sometimes think that will lead to happiness. But most of those who go into a field for this kind of goal will be miserable, just not broke and miserable. There really needs to be something more. If you don't like the job no amount of money is going to change that. we are talking about most of your awake life from here on out. And frankly there are other fields that are more about wealth accumulation and less about illness and death and emotional stress that better suit people who are just in it for the Benjamin's.

 

[allantois]

I find it funny that research has been done that increasing income over roughly $75,000 won't increase your happiness, yet so many premeds on here are still insisting that it will. I also find it funny that I asked for reasons other than financial ones that influence their decision to go into medicine, and many of you are still listing financial reasons for reasons of wanting to go into medicine.

Funny I just read in the news that people cannot buy a house on an income of $65k in CA. Who cares what research says? People do not make life decisions based on research. If we did, then somebody needs to show that article to Koch brothers. Physicians are more than free to work 20 hours a week and make $100k or so, yet we don't see that happening.

 

[Glazedonutlove]

Money is only a draw until you have a little, then it's more of a handcuff. Premeds without money sometimes think that will lead to happiness. But most of those who go into a field for this kind of goal will be miserable, just not broke and miserable. There really needs to be something more. If you don't like the job no amount of money is going to change that. we are talking about most of your awake life from here on out. And frankly there are other fields that are more about wealth accumulation and less about illness and death and emotional stress that better suit people who are just in it for the Benjamin's.

What was the something more for you?

 

[Hammer Time]

Funny I just read in the news that people cannot buy a house on an income of $65k in CA. Who cares what research says? People do not make life decisions based on research. If they did, then somebody needs to send that article to Koch brothers. Physicians are more than free to work 20 hours a week and make $100k or so, yet we don't see that happening.

If you read the article, you would know the income varies by state. In California, that number is $95,000. Because California is an insanely expensive state to live in.

 

[Hammer Time]

Physicians are more than free to work 20 hours a week and make $100k or so, yet we don't see that happening.