Just curious. I am taking pre-reqs now, so I have about 18 months before I apply at my best bet. So, I am starting to work on EC now. I have been set up to volunteer at the local hospice, I expect to do that a few hours a week (on top of working, school and wife and kid!). I know I need to find someone to shadow, what is the best speciality and how many hours would be good? Lastly, "nonmedical" community service? How much of that should I shoot for. I assume something outside of church and school would be best? Any advice on how to make myself look good (since my GPA is eh) would be greatly appreciated. Thanks....
If you were starting from the beginning, what would you do EC-wise?
- Thread starter aynmar
- Start date
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2009
- Messages
- 1,380
- Reaction score
- 13
I'll bite. I had been volunteering for only about 8 months before I submitted my app. I think that hurt me some as it wasn't as long as most places like to see. However, I did hospice patient care volunteering which seemed to be unique for a pre-med. I think that was a strength.
Second, I did some volunteering at a community garden which about half of my interviewers asked about. They seemed very interested in that, and I thought it was a strength for my app.
So, for volunteering, I'd say, stick with something for a long time (18 months is good.) Then, maybe do something "out of the ordinary," but something that you believe in and have strong feelings about. As for outside of church or school, I don't really think that's necessary. Do whatever seems cool.
As for shadowing, it gets harder. I did my post-bac at a school that had a med school. So, I got a hospital ID and did tons of shadowing there. However, I also shadowed a family practice doctor just by saying I was a pre-med and in school. I did the same in an EM dept. just by walking in and asking. You gotta be forward about it.
For amounts, I think you have an advantage that you really only need substantial time with two or three doctors. I did about 3 days (24-28 hours total) with a family practice doctor, about 2 shifts of EM (16 hours total), about 24 hours over 4 days in anesthesiology, then a ton of different smaller gigs. Couple hours in palliative care, couple in PM&R, etc.
But, for you, it would probably be easier to get a lot of hours in with two or three docs. FM is a must (IMHO) as it's always good general experience. Then, maybe something find one other specialty you're interested in and try to do a few days worth of shadowing there too. Good luck!
Second, I did some volunteering at a community garden which about half of my interviewers asked about. They seemed very interested in that, and I thought it was a strength for my app.
So, for volunteering, I'd say, stick with something for a long time (18 months is good.) Then, maybe do something "out of the ordinary," but something that you believe in and have strong feelings about. As for outside of church or school, I don't really think that's necessary. Do whatever seems cool.
As for shadowing, it gets harder. I did my post-bac at a school that had a med school. So, I got a hospital ID and did tons of shadowing there. However, I also shadowed a family practice doctor just by saying I was a pre-med and in school. I did the same in an EM dept. just by walking in and asking. You gotta be forward about it.
For amounts, I think you have an advantage that you really only need substantial time with two or three doctors. I did about 3 days (24-28 hours total) with a family practice doctor, about 2 shifts of EM (16 hours total), about 24 hours over 4 days in anesthesiology, then a ton of different smaller gigs. Couple hours in palliative care, couple in PM&R, etc.
But, for you, it would probably be easier to get a lot of hours in with two or three docs. FM is a must (IMHO) as it's always good general experience. Then, maybe something find one other specialty you're interested in and try to do a few days worth of shadowing there too. Good luck!
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2005
- Messages
- 6,387
- Reaction score
- 4,967
Get a job as a tech at the hospital. Make money and get your experience in. You will also make connections that will help you by having a working relationship with the medical staff.
QofQuimica
Seriously, dude, I think you're overreacting....
Moderator Emeritus
Lifetime Donor
15+ Year Member
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2004
- Messages
- 18,899
- Reaction score
- 4,295
Beyond getting clinical experience, which you will get through your hospice and shadowing activities, there are no "best" ECs. Basically what adcoms are looking for is passion and involvement. What do you really care about? What do you love doing so much that you could talk about it for an hour and have it seem like a few minutes? No two people will answer this question in the same way.
In my case, I really enjoyed science, and teaching science in particular. I did a lot of volunteering along those lines, from training my lab's premed research students, to writing MCAT chemistry guides and answering questions for SDN members, to doing science demonstrations for inner city elementary school children. There is a common theme here, and it's something that I discussed quite a bit at my interviews and in my PS.
When you're thinking about what you truly love, don't just stop there. Think about how you can use your interests and skills to help others. Again, this will be unique for each applicant, and there is no one right way to make yourself "look good." If volunteering for your church is something you really are passionate about, then by all means, volunteer for your church.
It's not what the specific EC is that makes it good. It's how you do that EC.
Best of luck. 🙂
S
Segovia
Not really an EC, but since I live in San Diego I would have set out to learn Spanish with as much fervor as I did for Chemistry. Then I would have volunteered in clinics down by the border. Not that you need to know the language to volunteer there, but it would make things smoother. I have already learned quite a bit of Spanish, but am envious of those with fluency. As a bonus, it has to look pretty good on AMCAS, but I really don't care too much about that.
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2009
- Messages
- 396
- Reaction score
- 52
You just looking for ideas for nonmedical opportunities? I have a weekly gig teaching a science class to women staying in a transitional living center (recovering addicts, homeless, etc) preparing to get their GEDs. I love it; I build my own lesson plans since none of the other teachers there have a clue about science. After that class I assist the instructor in the computer learning center. I just went online and looked for opportunities to help disadvantaged people trying to get back on their feet, and ended up applying through the website. Most places that accept volunteers are always in need of people, so all you have to do is search for something you are interested in.
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2008
- Messages
- 238
- Reaction score
- 0
Perhaps I could have started volunteering as a companion at assisted living facilities earlier. I have lunch with a couple of the guys there on a weekly or biweekly basis (work shedule permitting). Some of their stories are just cool to listen to. Plus, they're the most crass bunch of dudes I've met in a long time. Constant frat-boy behavior toward the female aides (freakin' hilarious)!
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2008
- Messages
- 3,128
- Reaction score
- 144
I'd have gotten a job at a hospital earlier. No comparison EC-wise to working with doctors and nurses and patients everyday.
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2009
- Messages
- 1,502
- Reaction score
- 5
What if that person's big hobby and life enjoyment is watching television? lol More interestingly, what if it's a college aged kid that's not hooked on MTV and reality shows? It could be black and white tv sitcoms or some other eclectic genre? How can you fault people for liking what they like although I bet if someone touted this it wouldn't get the same response as your involvement in science education.
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2006
- Messages
- 6,133
- Reaction score
- 2,369
Medical/Clinical experience- as a non-trad you need to remember that Adcoms want you to prove you know what you are getting into. So you need as much clinical experience as possible.
Volunteering at hospice is a good idea. Also volunteering at a free clinic is a good way to get clinical exposure. They tend to let you do more at a free clinic than a hospital or other clinics.
Shadowing- I would recommend shadowing each of the following for a few hours each (at a minimum). Ideally you would spend a full day with each:
- A family practice doc or general internal medicine doc (gets exposure to primary care)
- An ER doc (gets exposure to acute care),
- A surgeon
- A subspecialist like a GI doc, cardiologist, ID doc, or one of the other internal medicine subspecialits
Non medical volunteering is vital to an application. It shows the adcom you have compassion, empathy and the other attributes they are looking for in future physicians. Again, the more you can do the better. I'd recommend volunteering at one place about twice a month for those 18 months you are doing your post-bac.
Research looks good, but that might be hard to pull off with everything else you'll be doing.
Remember, if you are applying DO to shadow some DOs and for DO schools retaking a course you did poorly in replaces the bad grade with the new grade (instead of averaging them like MD schools do). This means your GPA can increase more easily when applying to DO schools.
QofQuimica
Seriously, dude, I think you're overreacting....
Moderator Emeritus
Lifetime Donor
15+ Year Member
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2004
- Messages
- 18,899
- Reaction score
- 4,295
I don't think I'm going far out on a limb here when I say that if a person's one big hobby and life enjoyment is watching TV, then they may not find medicine to be a career they much enjoy. 😉
But although you're only playing devil's advocate, watching TV can be turned into an EC if you want it to be one--even into a service-oriented EC. For example, you could set up screenings at your college of TV documentaries or other shows, followed by discussions. You could review TV shows and post the reviews online in a blog or on a website. You could watch TV shows and lobby for (or against) FCC regulations if you felt passionate about the political aspects of television broadcasting.
There's not a single hobby you can think of that can't in some way be turned into an activity that would be worthy of putting on your AMCAS. People's service-oriented ECs can only be limited by their lack of imagination or initiative, not by their interests.
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2009
- Messages
- 1,502
- Reaction score
- 5
Then said hobby would become more of an intellectual pursuit. Can't education and occupation be separate from one's other interests?
I recall a doctor back home who flew Cobras in Vietnam. He had to leave the army, which he didn't want to do, and he decided to do the next best thing in his mind. Subsequently, he became a popular FP and moving towards retirement later gave up his practice to become a hospitalist. I heard him say if given the chance he would've stuck with flying attack helicopters. I think that's an interesting notion because it's pretty opposite to what a lot of people on SDN suggest: if you want to do something besides medicine then do it. Medicine was his second best so he did it. He became a good doctor, but he'd much rather look at military aviation or go deer hunting than read his medical journals.
I'm not arguing with you, Q. I just don't understand this "passion" that so many talk about on here to the point that it frustrates me. If being a doctor is the job (despite how committed one has to be to be a doctor) one desires and would be good at why must the person subscribe to the typical premed dogma? Where's the individualism in it all? It's kind of like Patch Adams isn't it with the old salty docs telling Robin Williams that he couldn't be a doctor because he was too different, i.e. was too funny and got close to his patients?
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2004
- Messages
- 9,801
- Reaction score
- 138
I would agree with Q here. Adcoms are looking for passion. Interest. Not just hours to fill a requirement. I had no shortage of volunteer hours (literally thousands, no kidding), but if you look at what I had done - I started as a candy striper waaaaaaaaaaay back when I was like 12 or 13. Seriously. (I haven't actually told anyone that on my way into med school.) I had other long-term medical volunteer hours that had spanned over 15 years, I didn't have to go back that far into my past. Bottom line, they want to see this isn't just a flight of fancy. Are you truly passionate about something related to what you are about to embark upon? Science? Research? Medicine? Some type of rescue? Soup kitchen? Meals on Wheels? What turns your wheels?
They don't necessarily want to see you in the hospital for years before you apply to med school. They want to see commitment, that you have passion for something, because medicine is a freakin' hard commitment and you sometimes have to rely on your passion for it to get through the crap you have to slog through. The hard times, the ones where you want to cry and hide under the covers because it's been such a crappy day, and yesterday was a crappy day, and the day before that too. They want to see something to carry you through. Because if all you've done is sail through school, what happens if you fail a class? Lose 6 patients in one day? An entire family at once? Two kids every week for 9 weeks? These things wear on you, and SOMETHING has to be in you to pull you through. Passion.
And, btw, hobbies are important too. I was asked about them in darn near every interview, for medical school and residency. Your hobbies say a lot about you.
They don't necessarily want to see you in the hospital for years before you apply to med school. They want to see commitment, that you have passion for something, because medicine is a freakin' hard commitment and you sometimes have to rely on your passion for it to get through the crap you have to slog through. The hard times, the ones where you want to cry and hide under the covers because it's been such a crappy day, and yesterday was a crappy day, and the day before that too. They want to see something to carry you through. Because if all you've done is sail through school, what happens if you fail a class? Lose 6 patients in one day? An entire family at once? Two kids every week for 9 weeks? These things wear on you, and SOMETHING has to be in you to pull you through. Passion.
And, btw, hobbies are important too. I was asked about them in darn near every interview, for medical school and residency. Your hobbies say a lot about you.
QofQuimica
Seriously, dude, I think you're overreacting....
Moderator Emeritus
Lifetime Donor
15+ Year Member
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2004
- Messages
- 18,899
- Reaction score
- 4,295
I don't see how anything I suggested is explicitly related to education or occupation, especially for a physician. They are all examples of being actively involved in a hobby. To use your example, even though your physician friend didn't fly helicopters any more, he still had hobbies that he participated in actively, like going hunting, reading military aviation magazines, etc.
I guess what you're really trying to ask is what if someone is just lazy and doesn't want to actively participate in anything. Well, in that case, again, they may not find medicine to be such a good match in terms of a career. But FWIW, I highly doubt that your friend lives his life with that kind of passivity.
Well, thank heavens for that! 😉
It's ironic that you used that example. Patch Adams' "problem" was that he was *too* passionate about helping people. 😀
I think you're misunderstanding what I mean by passion--or at least interpreting it in too narrow of a context. I was not explicitly talking about passion for medicine in that last post. I'm talking about passion for something, even for life in general. It doesn't have to be all medicine, only medicine. It's the general attribute of possessing passion that adcoms are looking for, not only passion for medicine.
No doubt if you'd gone to med school several decades ago, you'd have found that the medical establishment was much more homogeneous and less individualistic than it is now. Yes, Patch Adams used to be scorned, but now he's the vanguard of the paradigm shift concerning what an ideal doctor should be like. The fact that his particular outlet was comedy isn't what makes him a model; it's that he had passion for something in general--and all the better that he used it to help people.
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2009
- Messages
- 1,502
- Reaction score
- 5
Hmmm. Ok. I'm starting to understand now. It's ok if your whole life doesn't fit into the premed mold.
I understand that medicine is a lot of work. I understand that being a doctor is a lot of work. It's hard work. If it were easy then it wouldn't be work. I've done a lot of things, and I've found that last statement is true of all walks of life. If you're going to do something right it's not going to be easy.
A couple of examples of things I question about premed-dom as they relate to me... I just don't understand how spending time doing research relates to a person wanting to be a doctor. Yes, medicine exists because of research others have done, and I like to read about science. However, I would be bouncing off the walls and pulling my hair out if I had to spend any length of time working in a lab, making observations, and taking notes. Volunteering...let's call it community service. Everybody should be civic minded. I just do it in my own way. I have no desire or intention to go volunteer at any type of medical provider. It's not beneath me, but it's not what I want to do. I've worked medically, and if given then time I'll do it again before I submit my applications. I don't do it now because I do not have the time. For nearly eight years now I've provided voluntary community service in the form of volunteer firefighting albeit much less time in the past couple of years than the six before that. That's a way I can help out that fits me better thus allowing me to serve better than the typical soup kitchen, homeless shelter, reading to kids, taking care of handicapped, type of thing. In education, law enforcement, and EMS I've worked with a wide variety of people. I've seen many elements of humanity and people ranging from those immediately trying to kill me to those crying on my shoulder not wanting me to leave them, and each of them gets a different side of ArkansasRanger. My career moves have been a direction to allow me to enjoy my work more and do better at it. Given my scope of interests and talents as well as my exposure and decade of reflections and lost opportunities I just know this is what I'd like to do even though I have no desire to color myself in a form that adcoms approve of. 👍 I see so often on SDN people asking "How will adcoms view...." Geez. Worry more about how you'll view yourself looking in the mirror.
I understand that medicine is a lot of work. I understand that being a doctor is a lot of work. It's hard work. If it were easy then it wouldn't be work. I've done a lot of things, and I've found that last statement is true of all walks of life. If you're going to do something right it's not going to be easy.
A couple of examples of things I question about premed-dom as they relate to me... I just don't understand how spending time doing research relates to a person wanting to be a doctor. Yes, medicine exists because of research others have done, and I like to read about science. However, I would be bouncing off the walls and pulling my hair out if I had to spend any length of time working in a lab, making observations, and taking notes. Volunteering...let's call it community service. Everybody should be civic minded. I just do it in my own way. I have no desire or intention to go volunteer at any type of medical provider. It's not beneath me, but it's not what I want to do. I've worked medically, and if given then time I'll do it again before I submit my applications. I don't do it now because I do not have the time. For nearly eight years now I've provided voluntary community service in the form of volunteer firefighting albeit much less time in the past couple of years than the six before that. That's a way I can help out that fits me better thus allowing me to serve better than the typical soup kitchen, homeless shelter, reading to kids, taking care of handicapped, type of thing. In education, law enforcement, and EMS I've worked with a wide variety of people. I've seen many elements of humanity and people ranging from those immediately trying to kill me to those crying on my shoulder not wanting me to leave them, and each of them gets a different side of ArkansasRanger. My career moves have been a direction to allow me to enjoy my work more and do better at it. Given my scope of interests and talents as well as my exposure and decade of reflections and lost opportunities I just know this is what I'd like to do even though I have no desire to color myself in a form that adcoms approve of. 👍 I see so often on SDN people asking "How will adcoms view...." Geez. Worry more about how you'll view yourself looking in the mirror.
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2004
- Messages
- 9,801
- Reaction score
- 138
I didn't do any research. I didn't have problems. I don't think it's research necessarily they are looking for - it's passion. It's drive. It's commitment. And you don't see that by volunteering as a transport tech or by shadowing for 20 hours.
And I agree - applicants should look in the mirror and know what they see looking back. And they should be comfortable with it. Not necessarily like all of it - but be comfortable with it.
And I agree - applicants should look in the mirror and know what they see looking back. And they should be comfortable with it. Not necessarily like all of it - but be comfortable with it.
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2009
- Messages
- 1,502
- Reaction score
- 5
Well, I know research isn't required, but it seems to be one of those many checkboxes of premed "been there, done that" that people seem to look for.
Good responses. Really. I am all over the posts with this. I know what I am supposed to do to make myself look like the proper applicant, but I also understand that volunteering, as said "reading books to children," etc., just to have it on your application is probably pointless. Its just hard to nail down where my passion (of volunteering) is. I mean, I have a passion to become a doctor, but like some other posts....I am busy! I work, go to school, have a wife, a son.
I am volunteering at the hospice to gain some clinical experience and to just meet and network with some people (I am also new to town), but my real contributing volunteering is when I offer my services as a graphic designer (my pre-med job) to the church, which I have done at my previous churches as well as my current church. I have been a graphic artist for nearly 10 years, and always volunteer that service of mine, do I have a die-hard passion for graphic design - no.
We also serve in many ways that are not always "labled" easily as a family, like providing meals for greif-stricken families, being a friend and helper to our elderly widower neighbor, being the kind of person that can be called on for anything, anytime. Not sure if that can be counted as an official "EC" but, who knows.
Thanks for all the replies.
I am volunteering at the hospice to gain some clinical experience and to just meet and network with some people (I am also new to town), but my real contributing volunteering is when I offer my services as a graphic designer (my pre-med job) to the church, which I have done at my previous churches as well as my current church. I have been a graphic artist for nearly 10 years, and always volunteer that service of mine, do I have a die-hard passion for graphic design - no.
We also serve in many ways that are not always "labled" easily as a family, like providing meals for greif-stricken families, being a friend and helper to our elderly widower neighbor, being the kind of person that can be called on for anything, anytime. Not sure if that can be counted as an official "EC" but, who knows.
Thanks for all the replies.
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2004
- Messages
- 9,801
- Reaction score
- 138
Perhaps not a normal "EC" but could certainly make a lovely PS.
QofQuimica
Seriously, dude, I think you're overreacting....
Moderator Emeritus
Lifetime Donor
15+ Year Member
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2004
- Messages
- 18,899
- Reaction score
- 4,295
Again, saying that adcoms expect research like you've described is too narrow of a definition (with the exception of those people who apply to research-oriented programs liked MD/PhD and MD/MS). There is *not* a checkbox for "did this student spend X number of hours pipetting in a lab?" Adcoms are interested in applicants with intellectual curiosity and some kind of scholarship, but it doesn't have to specifically be molecular biology research.
The thought process from our end is more along these lines: your learning about medicine does not end when you graduate from med school, or even when you graduate from residency. We need to choose people who will at least stay up-to-date in their field, who will maybe even advance their field in some way. Some will be basic researchers. Others will be interested in drug trials, public health, ethics, economics, international health, emergency response, teaching, policy-making, etc.
All of which is great. This is the kind of thing I'm trying to get at when I am emphasizing the importance of being active and passionate about something. You don't have to specifically volunteer in a hospital. No one will ever tell you that volunteer firefighting isn't a valuable form of community service! However, since some kind of clinical experience is a must, you may want to spend a little time shadowing if you haven't already.
AR, I agree those threads are annoying, but try to be a little charitable toward some of these posters. Just as you come on SDN, and it makes you worry sometimes that maybe you're not doing what you should be to get in, so do they. And unlike you, a 20-year-old college junior may not have enough perspective to look at things in the larger picture.
But FWIW, you and I are basically in agreement. One of the points that I'm trying to make, maybe not as successfully as I'd like, is that there is no one activity that adcoms want (beyond clinical experience). We're looking for evidence of specific attributes: passion, scholarship, civic-mindedness, ethics, etc. There are as many ways to show evidence of these things as there are applicants to medical school. Really, wouldn't med school classes be boring if we chose dozens of students who were all very similar?
You're using the skill you have to help others, and you obviously do have some level of commitment to your career to have done it for a decade. It doesn't have to be your greatest life love--and it probably isn't for most applicants, or you wouldn't be career-changing, right? 🙂
As Shy said, this is great stuff to discuss in your PS.
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2009
- Messages
- 1,502
- Reaction score
- 5
Thanks, Q. That was a helpful reply. I'm not very introspective so I can't say for certain what I'm passionate about, and I guess that's where I have a lot of hangups with many of the posts on SDN. I know what I like to do, I know what I want to do but have never done, I know what I do now that I want to keep on doing, and I know what interests me. Explaining one of those characteristics as being a passion is difficult because it's not an adjective that ordinarly comes to mind, but maybe that's linked to me being one of those unemotional males.
QofQuimica
Seriously, dude, I think you're overreacting....
Moderator Emeritus
Lifetime Donor
15+ Year Member
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2004
- Messages
- 18,899
- Reaction score
- 4,295
You're certainly passionate about playing devil's advocate, especially with me.
😉All kidding aside, I think your ECs will be fine, AR. Lack of interesting ECs is not usually an issue for nontrads in general, and I'm certainly not getting the impression that it will be an issue for you specifically. 🙂
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2009
- Messages
- 1,502
- Reaction score
- 5
You're certainly passionate about playing devil's advocate, especially with me.
All kidding aside, I think your ECs will be fine, AR. Lack of interesting ECs is not usually an issue for nontrads in general, and I'm certainly not getting the impression that it will be an issue for you specifically. 🙂
I do love to beg the question, but hmmm. I'm wondering if that last part has a hidden meaning, lol. 😀
<< ----- that flower is for Q and her tolerance of me.
