SkipJunior

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I graduated from Windsor medical school and failed to match into residencies two years in a row. My time in the Caribbean islands combined with my experience in the residency trail has allowed me to absorb a lot of information about Caribbean medical schools. I've met SGU, Ross, AUC, AUA, St. James etc. students and grads...I've heard their complaints and their praises.

This thread is for those people whose stats are too low to get into a US MD/DO school. My first advice is to not join any offshore school, especially now with the upcoming residency crunch. However if you still insist on trying your luck at a US residency from a Caribbean medical school or if you plan on practicing in another country, then I can help you out in this thread. Several Caribbean medical school grads have set up comfortable practices in African and Middle Eastern countries and never had to take the USMLE or participate in the NRMP.

Again, my primary advice is for you to stay stateside. However if you absolutely insist on applying to Carib schools, then maybe I can at least help you avert some major disasters.
 

DermViser

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UBC2014

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Did you take the MCCEE's and try to apply to CARMS at all?
 
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SkipJunior

SkipJunior

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Curious but what are your plans now that you failed twice to match?
I have eggs in several baskets. I'm applying to select md and do schools that are willing to forgive my academic history. Im also going to apply for prelim positions in the 2015 match. Im also looking into associate physician jobs in missouri.
 

The Buff OP

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Troll? :thinking:
I mean you are in probation.
 

Aerus

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Troll? :thinking:
I mean you are in probation.
I think having a Caribbean representative on SDN would be useful. Someone who has been through the process and knows all the pros and cons of going Caribbean through direct experience. Skip seems to be a strong advocate against it, so it's not like he/she is spreading false propaganda.
 

Law2Doc

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I think having a Caribbean representative on SDN would be useful. Someone who has been through the process and knows all the pros and cons of going Caribbean through direct experience. Skip seems to be a strong advocate against it, so it's not like he/she is spreading false propaganda.
Someone who has yet to land on their feet may not be the right person to give advice. This poster's thread might be a few years premature.
 

IslandStyle808

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How did you go about setting up core rotations? Did the school help you?

Also, I understand that caribbean students need to do green book certified core rotations (not sure if it is still called this). I am not sure what this means exactly? I understand that you need to do core rotations at hospitals with a ACGME approved residency. Does your training need to be with someone in the residency program or can any physician (of the same specialty) in that hospital train you?
 
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SkipJunior

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How did you go about setting up core rotations? Did the school help you?

Also, I understand that caribbean students need to do green book certified core rotations (not sure if it is still called this). I am not sure what this means exactly? I understand that you need to do core rotations at hospitals with a ACGME approved residency. Does your training need to be with someone in the residency program or can any physician (of the same specialty) in that hospital train you?
Yes the school helped set me up with core rotations and elective rotations. My school paid hospitals to take me in so they were in charge of that. Looks like you know what a greenbook rotation is already lol. Green book rotation is a rotation that has a ACGME approved residency in that rotation. For instance, if you want to do a medicine core clerkship then it has to be in a hosptial where they have a ACGME approved IM residency program (which tells everyone that this place is a teaching hospital...whether the attendings or residents teach or not is another story!). Any physician can train me.
 
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Make Or Break

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Do you think you would have had a better chance at matching if you went to a top 4 Caribbean program?
 
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SkipJunior

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Do you think you would have had a better chance at matching if you went to a top 4 Caribbean program?
Yes I do think I would have had a better chance, especially at SGU. SGU is much more well known and respected IMO in residency program director's eyes than Windsor.
 
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Did you ever take the steps?

I have a family member who graduated from SGU, bad step scores, good clinical grades. Did two years of research and worked his way into a non categorical surgery residency.
 
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ridethecliche

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I think having a Caribbean representative on SDN would be useful. Someone who has been through the process and knows all the pros and cons of going Caribbean through direct experience. Skip seems to be a strong advocate against it, so it's not like he/she is spreading false propaganda.
OP doesn't know the 'pros' because they aren't a success story.
 
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It was a prelim spot, that he did for two years; resigned for his second year. Then categorical for the rest of his residency.
 

Omppu27

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I have eggs in several baskets. I'm applying to select md and do schools that are willing to forgive my academic history. Im also going to apply for prelim positions in the 2015 match. Im also looking into associate physician jobs in missouri.
I thought you couldn't apply to US medical schools if you've already completed a medical program elsewhere... Guess i'm wrong.

Were you aware of the possible issues that come with an offshore med education when you began med school? What was Windsor done for you since you've graduated?
 

OllieDog

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I think having a Caribbean representative on SDN would be useful. Someone who has been through the process and knows all the pros and cons of going Caribbean through direct experience. Skip seems to be a strong advocate against it, so it's not like he/she is spreading false propaganda.
There actually is a good Caribbean representative on SDN: @Skip Intro , definitely not to be confused with Skip Junior.
As I understand it, he's been through the schooling, has successfully matched, and gives good, solid, realistic advice in the Caribbean forums on SDN. I would suggest anyone with questions about Caribbean schooling head over to that subforum and read his very excellent, thorough advice.
 

Osteoth

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I have eggs in several baskets. I'm applying to select md and do schools that are willing to forgive my academic history. Im also going to apply for prelim positions in the 2015 match. Im also looking into associate physician jobs in missouri.
Wait so you're applying to MD/DO schools and would re-do medical school if accepted?
 

Goro

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That's his plan. Alas, at my school, he would get an interview (because we don't pre-screen, but to the Adcom's annoyance) and then get rejected.

Wait so you're applying to MD/DO schools and would re-do medical school if accepted?
 
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SkipJunior

SkipJunior

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There actually is a good Caribbean representative on SDN: @Skip Intro , definitely not to be confused with Skip Junior.
As I understand it, he's been through the schooling, has successfully matched, and gives good, solid, realistic advice in the Caribbean forums on SDN. I would suggest anyone with questions about Caribbean schooling head over to that subforum and read his very excellent, thorough advice.
You seem to have a higher opinion of him than I do. Sure he does give good advice at times but you can tell from his advice that he has a slight prejudice against DOs. I remember once he wrote a comment where he stated that no one asked where he went to school but people ask DOs several times what "DO" stands for. He also sometimes seem to encourage people to go to the Caribbean, at least indirectly by stating that the residency crunch is false and that thousands of caribbean graduates will still match into US residencies in the coming years. He has this message that I disagree with. His message is "If you know what you're getting into and if you're motivated and hardworking and realistic, you can match into a FM, IM residency even if you join a Carib school now". I disagree with that message because I do think there will be a residency crunch and I think it's better for a motivated, hard working candidate to improve their app and re-apply to MD/DO schools then to ever go Caribbean (if they plan on practicing in North America).
 
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SkipJunior

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I thought you couldn't apply to US medical schools if you've already completed a medical program elsewhere... Guess i'm wrong.

Were you aware of the possible issues that come with an offshore med education when you began med school? What was Windsor done for you since you've graduated?
No I was very misinformed and I had a silly prejudice against DO school at that time. Windsor has done nada. Caribbean medical schools just care about money, not about their students/grads.
 

Goro

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Because our wily old Admissions dean has a different mandate from ours (the Adcom's). He just wants to get warm bodies into seats, we want them to be qualified bodies.

What kills Skip at my school is that if he had the stats to go to a DO school instead of Windsor, he could have and should gone to a DO school. If he had chosen that route, he'd be a resident right now. Therefore, we want people who are more interested in being doctors right now, than with the initials after their names.

Now, if Skip had stats that were too low, there were and are ways to fix that, and then be viable for either DO or MD schools.

I feel for the guy, but our attitude is "you made your bed, now you lie in it."

There are exceptions to this, but they're so uncommon that if I give examples, then I'm worried that one of my colleagues will suss out who I am!

Why waste an interview spot? Also, why reject everyone who does this? No cases of exceptionalism?
 
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Omppu27

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No I was very misinformed and I had a silly prejudice against DO school at that time. Windsor has done nada. Caribbean medical schools just care about money, not about their students/grads.
Are many of your classmates in similar situations? Also, what was your step scores (just curious)?
 
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SkipJunior

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Are many of your classmates in similar situations? Also, what was your step scores (just curious)?
I PMed you. Many of my classmates made a mockery out of medical school, partying constantly and continuously paying re-take fees to Windsor so they can re-take exams they failed in. A select few were serious and they did match into residencies.
 
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Osteoth

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That's his plan. Alas, at my school, he would get an interview (because we don't pre-screen, but to the Adcom's annoyance) and then get rejected.
But he'd probably kill preclinicals/clinicals/step1/step2 because he is already miles ahead of where his classmates are right? So although its a huge money sink it might actually allow him to land a good/competitive residency.
 
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SkipJunior

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But he'd probably kill preclinicals/clinicals/step1/step2 because he is already miles ahead of where his classmates are right? So although its a huge money sink it might actually allow him to land a good/competitive residency.
Thank you Osteoth but Goro has already given his reasoning as to why he would reject my application and we must respect it.
 
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ridethecliche

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Because our wily old Admissions dean has a different mandate from ours (the Adcom's). He just wants to get warm bodies into seats, we want them to be qualified bodies.

What kills Skip at my school is that if he had the stats to go to a DO school instead of Windsor, he could have and should gone to a DO school. If he had chosen that route, he'd be a resident right now. Therefore, we want people who are more interested in being doctors right now, than with the initials after their names.

Now, if Skip had stats that were too low, there were and are ways to fix that, and then be viable for either DO or MD schools.

I feel for the guy, but our attitude is "you made your bed, now you lie in it."

There are exceptions to this, but they're so uncommon that if I give examples, then I'm worried that one of my colleagues will suss out who I am!
By this logic, people that end up having to do a post bacc for classes if they were weak in academics the first time around don't deserve a second shot. If the applicant has decent grades and does well on the MCAT within the time frame that the school requests, then why not do it?

I think that the situations are similar. One could argue that people that don't do well in undergrad made their bed and should then lie in it.

(Hey, being devil's advocate is fun!)


But he'd probably kill preclinicals/clinicals/step1/step2 because he is already miles ahead of where his classmates are right? So although its a huge money sink it might actually allow him to land a good/competitive residency.
I don't know how residency programs will view this though, so I can't really form a coherent viewpoint.
 
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SkipJunior

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By this logic, people that end up having to do a post bacc for classes if they were weak in academics the first time around don't deserve a second shot. If the applicant has decent grades and does well on the MCAT within the time frame that the school requests, then why not do it?

I think that the situations are similar. One could argue that people that don't do well in undergrad made their bed and should then lie in it.

(Hey, being devil's advocate is fun!)



.
It's not about academic performance. It's about poor decision making on my part to not apply to DO schools and go to the Carib in the first place
 

ridethecliche

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Poor decision making makes people have crappy grades in undergrad classes the first time around. If AACOMAS practices 'grade forgiveness', then this is not unreasonable.

If their concern is the amount of debt the student has accrued, then that's a real issue.
 

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The issue isn't one of academic merit, it's dedication to the profession. He could have gone Do right off the bat, but no, the MD was more important. we'd rather give seats to people who actually want to come here, the first time around.

I think Skip will have some luck with some other DO programs, because he actually has made it through and passed USMLE. Most of the Carib refugees we see are dropouts/dismissees.

By this logic, people that end up having to do a post bacc for classes if they were weak in academics the first time around don't deserve a second shot. If the applicant has decent grades and does well on the MCAT within the time frame that the school requests, then why not do it?


Many MD schools take this point of view.
I think that the situations are similar. One could argue that people that don't do well in undergrad made their bed and should then lie in it.
 

The Buff OP

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Someone who has yet to land on their feet may not be the right person to give advice. This poster's thread might be a few years premature.
This. That's why I called it a troll thread and OP's status says pre-medical now.
We all know Caribbean is not the way to go. And we (well I) mostly don't care about asking questions to a person who went Caribbean.
 
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SkipJunior

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This. That's why I called it a troll thread and OP's status says pre-medical now.
We all know Caribbean is not the way to go. And we (well I) mostly don't care about asking questions to a person who went Caribbean.
I respect your opinion. Since you consider this a troll thread, you're welcome to not reply to it. Have a good day sir.
 

mehc012

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This. That's why I called it a troll thread and OP's status says pre-medical now.
We all know Caribbean is not the way to go. And we (well I) mostly don't care about asking questions to a person who went Caribbean.
At the same time, while YOU may know this, there are those on SDN who are not convinced, or who still think they are better off going Caribbean than DO. It is quite easy for them to cite a few pieces of anecdotal evidence and then stick their fingers in their ears because we are all 'biased' on this subject...for those who haven't yet gotten to the stage where you are at, where they have firmly decided against the Caribbean, it can be confusing because everyone seems to be speaking with little to no experience on the matter. So a first-hand perspective, even if it's more a cautionary tale than an underdog success, could certainly be valuable to those people.

Not valuable to you does not mean valuable to nobody.
 

Omppu27

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I PMed you. Many of my classmates made a mockery out of medical school, partying constantly and continuously paying re-take fees to Windsor so they can re-take exams they failed in. A select few were serious and they did match into residencies.
Wow... ridiculous.
 

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This. That's why I called it a troll thread and OP's status says pre-medical now.
We all know Caribbean is not the way to go. And we (well I) mostly don't care about asking questions to a person who went Caribbean.
Actually, not everyone knows that Carib is not the way to go. You don't speak for the entirety of SDN or pre-meds everywhere.

Many people think Carib is the only option after failing to get into a US school. I have a friend who just started at one of the Big 4 despite doing pretty well in undergrad and (from what I knew) had a good enough application for DO. His mentality was that his older brother went to a Carib school and matched to a US residency perfectly fine, so he should be fine too. And it's certainly possible to work hard at a Carib school and go on to match, but it's a constant uphill battle that I don't think many people realize.
 

Aerus

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Someone who has yet to land on their feet may not be the right person to give advice. This poster's thread might be a few years premature.
OP doesn't know the 'pros' because they aren't a success story.
While I agree that this thread is a bit premature for it to be used to its full potential, but I do see the value in having someone who has directly dealt with the BS that is Caribbean discouraging premeds who aren't aware of all the risks rather than having mostly SDN "I knew a guy".
 
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RogueUnicorn

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I think having a Caribbean representative on SDN would be useful. Someone who has been through the process and knows all the pros and cons of going Caribbean through direct experience. Skip seems to be a strong advocate against it, so it's not like he/she is spreading false propaganda.
it would be helpful if the person could string together a coherent thought
 

ridethecliche

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The issue isn't one of academic merit, it's dedication to the profession. He could have gone Do right off the bat, but no, the MD was more important. we'd rather give seats to people who actually want to come here, the first time around.

I think Skip will have some luck with some other DO programs, because he actually has made it through and passed USMLE. Most of the Carib refugees we see are dropouts/dismissees.

By this logic, people that end up having to do a post bacc for classes if they were weak in academics the first time around don't deserve a second shot. If the applicant has decent grades and does well on the MCAT within the time frame that the school requests, then why not do it?


Many MD schools take this point of view.
I think that the situations are similar. One could argue that people that don't do well in undergrad made their bed and should then lie in it.
Some people have legitimately no idea what a DO is and it's not for lack of knowledge. DO's aren't everywhere and I'm not sure how people are expected to know about the programs if there's no mention of it in their sphere of existence. Like everything else in life, it's complicated!
 

The Buff OP

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Actually, not everyone knows that Carib is not the way to go. You don't speak for the entirety of SDN or pre-meds everywhere.

Many people think Carib is the only option after failing to get into a US school. I have a friend who just started at one of the Big 4 despite doing pretty well in undergrad and (from what I knew) had a good enough application for DO. His mentality was that his older brother went to a Carib school and matched to a US residency perfectly fine, so he should be fine too. And it's certainly possible to work hard at a Carib school and go on to match, but it's a constant uphill battle that I don't think many people realize.
 

Law2Doc

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While I agree that this thread is a bit premature for it to be used to its full potential, but I do see the value in having someone who has directly dealt with the BS that is Caribbean discouraging premeds who aren't aware of all the risks rather than having mostly SDN "I knew a guy".
Except that he's not really on here saying absolutely under any and all circumstances don't do Caribbean. He's already hinted that he thinks SGU would have been a viable option. And that a few of his classmates landed residencies because they were "serious" instead of making a mockery of the situation. So he's really not taking a hardline "don't go down this road" stance. which at his current junction would be the only useful thread he could offer -- the telltale warning -- the "don't end up like me" tale.