I appreciate everyone's responses. I'm overseas right now and haven't had much time, but I would like to respond to some key points.
bonsaipalmtree said:
Ask your fellow MS3s which attendings are nicest and try to schedule your rotations with them, or at least in their department (usually that's as much choice as your get). The MS3s here are always doing that, from what I've seen.
Cool. I'll do that. But what about fourth year rotations, which at my school, I'm on my own to schedule? I'll be looking for ones far and wide, including in many places where I won't know anyone connected with the place. Any suggestions for good 'indicators', for lack of a better word, when I go to visit or interview?
Dr Bartlet said:
Bull****. Being under stress or pressure gives no one the right to bully someone else, I don't care if you're a doctor or the president of the United States. All the BS med students spew is just that -- BS. The truth is, attendings and residents treat third years like this for one simple -- because they can. They get away with it for no earthly reason. In any other field, any "boss" who treated an employee the way some of these people treat med students would be on the losing end of a harassment suit and I say that as someone who used to work in HR for 10 years prior to med school.
You guys put up with it, they do it. Simple as that. Until med students "grow a pair" and stand up for themselves, the system won't change. When I was a third year, I didn't take crap. I lucked out and ended up with some good attendings/residents for the most part, but I was on two rotations where I was working for scum. I stood up for myself in a respectful manner and the only thing that happened is I didn't honor them. Boo freaking hoo. My self-respect is worth more than an H on my transcript.
I like the cut of your jib. I really don't think I'd have a problem approaching an attending in private, after I've cooled off and he or she isn't under pressure, and letting them know respectfully that I'd like a little more respect. Just eing given the chance to speak my mind does wonders for feeling vindicated.
cpants said:
Tough pimping and a certain amount of putting you in your place do serve an important role in medicine. Humility and knowing how little you actually know are vital attributes for a physician to have. Frankly, your posts have a certain sense of arrogance.
You read me wrong. I don't think I'm better than anyone, and have great respect for those who know much more than I do. But I have a healthy sense of self-respect, and know when I've done quality work.
cpants said:
At this point you are useless to the team. You are there to learn, and it comes at the expense of the team's efficiency and the patients' care. Recognize these things.
Pish-posh. I've worked in healthcare for years. I have plenty to contribute, and take a lot of pride in my work. Just this last rotation, I came up with a plan of action for a rather difficult case that my attendings hadn't thought of. They put my idea to use and a good time was had by all. I think about the patients I'm given very seriously, and really try to come up with practical ways to improve their care. I'm a team player, and would like to be recognized as one, rather than as a parasite.
cpants said:
Read as much as you can, and work your ass off. You will find that with increasing competence and knowledge, you will get increasing respect.
Good advice. I agree with you on this -- the more I read and the better I know my basics, the more I'll get treated like someone with something to contribute.
BigRedBeta said:
I do think that to a certain extent your anti-hierarchy "principles" are misguided at least to the point that by definition, medicine is hierarchal. I don't think I need to point out that you have a little "M3" next to your name while your interns, residents, fellows and attendings have something a bit different. And with that comes a very different load of responsibilities. An intern asking you to do something is not about making you know they have power over you, it's that they know more about what's going on and what needs to be done. Likewise, a resident going over your note and giving you criticism on what you can do better, or watching you perform a physical exam and correcting your deficiencies should not be viewed as a reprimand but as another opportunity to get better (or perhaps you could give other examples of the treatments that have bothered you on this rotation as these seem like really benign things I've come up with). And if you've really made a large mistake, overstepped your bounds, or are just so completely off base in your application of medical knowledge, then it really is something that needs to be addressed.
Again, my challenge to you is to consider intent.
As for residency, there definitely is a wide spectrum of behavior in regards to hierarchy. I'm a peds resident and I know of University based peds programs in which residents (and even students) are on a first name basis with attendings. I think, in general terms, the farther west you go, the more collegial programs tend to be, though by no means is this universal. It's absolutely something you can ask about on the interview trail.
Thank you, BigRedBeta. Your posts have been probably the most helpful in this thread, in terms of putting things in perspective. Unfortunately, I've settled on the east coast, and as I'm married to someone without a mobile job, the greater NYC area is where I'm staying.
All I ask is that I be given a chance. I have absolutely no problem stating, "I don't know, Doctor, but I'll look that up and get back to you." And if I say that, you bet your butt I will look it up and know it cold the next day. But please, wait until I've dropped the ball that next day to let me know how useless I am. I don't perform well in situations where disrespect can, and will, come at me randomly at any time, without warning.
naus said:
The OP has the wrong attitude to succeed in medicine (dwelling and bitter for days over criticism).
My attitude is one of conscientiousness, compassion, and openness to learning. What's amiss about that? Feeling upset is not a choice I make. I'm naturally just very sensitive (and fairly serious) and I've already stated that. I'm not going to apologize for this or admit it's "something I need to work on". At this age, I've had enough life experience to know that my skin isn't getting any thicker to being demeaned by people I've invested a lot of time and effort in.
Knicks said:
Welp! There's nothing more to see here, folks. Move along now. (The Mods can probably lock this thread at this point).
Says the guy who's contributed nothing of value to this thread. See, I have no problem just concluding this poster is a jerk and paying him no mind, because I don't have a working relationship with him, and haven't invested any time, effort, or emotional energy in any collaborative team projects with him. That's the difference.
robosurgeon said:
Right now, in our very young impressionable minds is when we start developing our own work ethics, style, and overall attitude towards medicine. Medicine is a profession where when a patient walks in the door, they expect you to be the best, know it all, and perform under pressure with no BS. It is a very tough job, and it is EXPECTED of you. In the real world, when we will be attendings, etc, no one will be holding our hand, no one will be telling us good job, not even our patients. If you want satisfaction from it, you need to turn inward. Otherwise, perfection is the minimum.
Perfection is the minimum? I think that's a little pie in the sky. The attendings I've most respected have been ones who've told me stories readily of times they've messed up.
I also disagree with you that no one will tell us 'good job'. I've already been told that by other staff and patients, when I was not fishing for it. I want to be a geriatrician, and a big motivating factor for me is how grateful my patients and their families often are, for the attention and concern I bring. I realize you probably have a different perspective going into surgery; please recognize that there are many medical jobs that fit many personality styles.