IM program rankings

[Pudgyp]

Does anyone know anything about IM program rankings? (besides the U.S. News and World Report that I have to purchase...and haven't?)

Particularly concerned about the following IM programs and where they rank with regard to reputation, NIH funding, and fellowship match rate...

Boston University
University of Connecticut
Brown University
University of Massachusetts

Any input would be greatly appreciated. Please post if you have "recent" data and information. All my info is outdated.

Thanks!

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[toxicscutmonkey]

The topic of program rankings comes up ad nauseum in these forums. To the best of my knowledge, there is no formal ranking of IM ranking programs. The USNWR ranking system which is often alluded to is, as per my understanding, actually a ranking of medical school training in "specialty areas." What that means, exactly, is a bit less clear. Some of the specialty areas which are ranked include AIDS, Drug/Alcohol Abuse, Internal Medicine, and Rural Medicine. It appears that there is widespread misinterpretation of this ranking as some sort of residency program ranking (although there are obviously no residency programs in "rural medicine" or "AIDS").

Here is how USNWR discusses their ranking of these specialties from their website: "The rankings are based solely on ratings by medical school deans and senior faculty from the list of schools surveyed. They each identified up to 10 schools offering the best programs in each specialty area. Those receiving the most nominations appear here."

I would advise speaking with the PD and senior faculty at your school to get their perspectives on program reputations and ability to place residents into competitive fellowship programs. NIH funding statistics are available on the NIH website.

To dwell on my initial point (perhaps ad naeseum), there are no formal rankings of residency programs of which I am aware.

 

[BlackNDecker]

Particularly concerned with where they rank with regard to...NIH funding

Come on man...you can google NIH funding and find the answer to this question.

Try searching these programs by name within this forum. Also try scutwork.com. Reputation is subjective and you will get many different answers.

 

[juicebox]

Come on man...you can google NIH funding and find the answer to this question.

Try searching these programs by name within this forum. Also try scutwork.com. Reputation is subjective and you will get many different answers.

...

 

[BlackNDecker]

But seriously...that's like asking where is Harvard located? Or, what color is blue?

I helped with his/her other questions, I just didn't go so far as to google NIH funding for him/her.

Yours is the only inflammatory post.

 

[juicebox]

But seriously...that's like asking where is Harvard located? Or, what color is blue?

I helped with his/her other questions, I just didn't go so far as to google NIH funding for him/her.

Yours is the only inflammatory post.

...

 

[johnnywalker]

actually...keep on keepin' on B&D...i thought the same thing when i saw the initial post

 

[fanondelaterre]

no, I agree with juicebox. Maybe you don't like a question. so be it. don't be rude. Just go and read the news or a good novel instead.

Also, I think you [blackndecker] have a picture of Jesus with a rifle as your picture. If you do, you really should consider changing it. Atleast to me it is offensive, and it goes against his philosophy. Unfortunately it seems that there are plenty of people in this country who don't quite understand that.

 

[Geri_Gal]

Thread closing in 3...2...1...

 

[Doctor]

I think you [blackndecker] have a picture of Jesus with a rifle as your picture. If you do, you really should consider changing it. Atleast to me it is offensive, and it goes against his philosophy. Unfortunately it seems that there are plenty of people in this country who don't quite understand that.

If you want to make a big fuss of unflattering Jesus cartoons, you should join up with those Muslims who rioted when poor Muhammad was featured in some cartoons of Denmark. But last I checked, this is the United States of America and we embrace the right to draw pics of Jesus sporting rifles here.

Also, Christians have been murdering people since Hypatia, so the peaceful philosophy of Jesus is not always well understood by his followers... and obviously the same is true of the followers of Muhammad.

 

[BlackNDecker]

BlackNDecker you are a douche. A sarcastic, sanctimonious, judgmental douche. I'm sure I'm not alone in feeling this way -- go get a life.

I may be sanctimonious, judgemental, and quite possibly a douche...but you're the one doing all the insulting. Since when is it a crime to add a little mocha chocolate to an otherwise vanilla forum? I love it when people call me out for being insulting, then go waaaaay overboard in the same direction.

When your librarian shows you how to look up a reference, but doesn't actually go and get it for you, do you also blow up on him/her with a series of insults? When you ask your attending a question and he tells you that'd make a great presentation for you to give the following day, do you respond by calling him a sanctimonious douche? Good luck with that temper.

Whatever happened to teaching someone how to fish? And speaking of fishermen...

Also, I think you [blackndecker] have a picture of Jesus with a rifle as your picture. If you do, you really should consider changing it. Atleast to me it is offensive, and it goes against his philosophy. Unfortunately it seems that there are plenty of people in this country who don't quite understand that.

Ok buddy, you're reeeeeeally stretching it here. As I recall Jesus did some fishing, and if he were alive today, I bet he'd be a sportsman (i.e. hunt, fish, ride 4-wheelers, whatever) and would probably be a member of the NRA. How is any of this offensive? Maybe your jesus drives a prius, sips latte's, and gets his tips frosted...so what if mine goes target shooting with me on Saturdays? (which he does BTW)

There's alot of gun-owning, conservative christians in this country...

We say grace and we say ma'am,
if you ain't into that we don't give d@mn.

 

[DwightKSchrute]

Juicebox down for the count.

 

[juicebox]

Juicebox down for the count.

...

 

[BlackNDecker]

No temper, I just don't like B&D's oft repeated tone on this forum. You can certainly make intelligent comments and spruce up the discussion without stepping on people's toes. Sure it's easy enough to look up NIH funding but what I think the original poster was driving at was rankings in general -- which I haven't seen for any programs beyond the top 25 or top 30.

Glad things are cool. It's ok, there are many many people out there that don't want to hear what I have to say (imagine that).

If you're so knowledgeable about them B&D, produce a list for us unresourceful types. Seriously, I think it's a legit question to ask: how do the middle tier programs compare? I'm not convinced NIH funding or USNews sub-specialty rankings do this topic justice. And yes, we plan on visiting these hospitals too and forming our own impressions of them.

I am definitely not "the source" for rankings...but I do intend to overhaul our old IM tier that was pounded over the last 2 years and post my thoughts. Hopefully it will fuel some discussion...but I'm waiting to interview and form my own opinions, as well as absorb this year's interview trail impressions from others as well.

But I'd like a little reputation score to go along with my gut feel because, after all, it's the name of the institution which is going to largely affect our professional outcomes down the line.

...I'm not touching this one.

 

[bonovox]

I'm a big fan of trash-talking as much as anyone else, just not here. You guys can start an "IM program rankings" thread in the Lounge and trash-talk freely there.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but, while the topic of this thread in particular is of little interest to me, there are other threads that are of interest and users have attempted to degenerate those as well meaning I gotta scroll through 100 posts of **** before I find some answer to a concern I may have. Which ain't cool when you're stressed enough as it is and are looking for good answers quickly.

 

[gutonc]

If you're so knowledgeable about them B&D, produce a list for us unresourceful types. Seriously, I think it's a legit question to ask: how do the middle tier programs compare?

Not to put words in his mouth (and I happen to disagree w/ B&D more often than I agree) but I think his point is that there is essentially no point and no realistic way to rank these programs in any meaningful way. The middle tier (and "upper tier" and "lower tier") programs compare in small, individual ways that can only be experienced by interviewing (and perhaps training) there. Sure, the concept of tiers gives you an idea of which programs you should apply to based on your qualifications but within any tier (and you could split IM programs into anywhere from 3-300 different tiers) the programs are, on the whole, roughly equal and the training you get from any of them will be more than adequate.

Residency is not like med school...there isn't a "one best place" to be for your training. If you wind up at the #1 program (let's call it the Beth Hopkins and Women's Mayo General University of Southwestern San Francisco or BHWMGUSWSF for short) on some random ranking scale and want to kill yourself every time you go to work because you hate your colleagues, attendings, PD and chair, you will not get great training. If, on the other hand, you wind up at a solid program that you like being a part of, you will get excellent training.

 

[BlackNDecker]

let's call it the Beth Hopkins and Women's Mayo General University of Southwestern San Francisco or BHWMGUSWSF for short

 

[lemonade02]

to the OP, it comes down to where you want to live....providence for brown or boston for BU (the two best reputed programs on your list). its that simple. nih dollars and fellowship match rates mean little to nothing. are you planning on being a big time basic science researcher? i doubt it. as for fellowships, you have to keep in mind that in all residences of the bu/brown tier, if you do your best, you will get a fellowship.

i'm guilty of it also but we must all stop chasing reputation like its the end all be all. the best program is the one you fit in and can thrive in. therefore, look at location and how well you get along with the housestaff/program directors.

anyone else getting sick of interviewing? only 3 interviews completed by me and i'm ready to cancel everything!

 

[juicebox]

...

 

[BrockDoc]

Honestly, everyone needs to stop worrying about rank and prestige. It's ridiculous. I could see asking about a person's opinion on a certain place based on the characteristics that make a place unique, but ranking places is for the drones in the US News newsroom.

Sometimes I just want to shake people who are writing posts that are asking for rankings. Give me a break. Go on interviews, visit the program, talk with the residents, and then maybe ask for other opinions based on other people's perspective. If all else fails, and you are still unsure, go back for a second look. But please don't base things on rank. It is totally absurd. Do you think fellowship programs are going to be looking at applications and saying "Well this applicant went to a program ranked 23 and this one went to a program ranked 24. Clearly the applicant at the 23rd ranked program is better." Get real.


Everyone needs to have a beer and sit back and relax and enjoy fourth year. There is no need to worry about how sweet the ranking of your program is.

 

[lemonade02]

As for the notion that's there's little difference amongst middle tier programs like, say, a #25-30ish program like Rochester, Pitt, or CWRU and lower middle tier program like, say, USC or Tufts, I don't buy it.

Dude, this is fundamentally wrong. There IS little difference.

They all train you to be adequate clincians. Think about this. You have MGH and Rochester. Both the doctors that come out of these programs will train adequate physicians. A program can't exist if it makes bad clinicians If you're not interested in academics, the ONLY difference between these two programs are the EASE in which you will get that competitive fellowship. MGH will pretty much gaurantee you one. At Rochester and the above programs, its not gauranteed but you'll have to bust your balls. That may seem like a big deal but you're going to be working hard at EITHER program. And if you work hard, you'll get your fellowship. So shouldn't the choice between MGH and Rochester be only location/happiness? Don't fall into this trap of chasing the best at this level. It may not be the best fit.

But back to your original query, I'll bet there is little difference between those programs.

 

[velo]

Also, I think you [blackndecker] have a picture of Jesus with a rifle as your picture. If you do, you really should consider changing it. Atleast to me it is offensive, and it goes against his philosophy. Unfortunately it seems that there are plenty of people in this country who don't quite understand that.

Well at least to ME that picture is awesome, and I would be offended if he changed it. You + me = zero, so he should do what he wants to do.

 

[velo]

Everyone needs to have a beer and sit back and relax and enjoy fourth year. There is no need to worry about how sweet the ranking of your program is.

Agreed, and what's most amusing is the fact that there IS NO SUCH RANKING of programs. At most there is a 'tier system' meaning certain groups of schools are held in high regard in the academic medical world and the residents at the higher tier schools seem to have an easier time getting fellowships. However, that's probably as much a function of what kind of residents go to those programs--meaning if you're able to go to MGH and end up going to Rochester you'll still have no problem matching in, say, cards (as long as you don't want to do it at Cleveland Clinic, the Brigham etc)