I'm think I should go into clinical psychology, medicine seems too hard

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

ExAmateurEconomist

Membership Revoked
Removed
Joined
Sep 27, 2021
Messages
58
Reaction score
6
To be honest, I'm not sure if medicine is for me. I wasted many years on nonsense trying to get my associate's in general studies from a junior college, and by the time I finish this December, it will have been 4 and a half years, and I will have a 2.2 or 2.3 GPA. I failed upper-level math to the point of being banned from it from Georgia perimeter college and Georgia state which it is a part of. now I wanted to go into medicine, so I wanted to transition into Kennesaw state, so I can do math again now that I'm a better student, and do biology, but every time I try to get into the school I get obstacles, which is actually related in my personal view (you dont have to believe it, its just my experience) to a prayer I did called istikhara, where if something is good, itll happen, no problems, if its bad, obstacles, but i suffer from anxiety and ocd, so i wonder if the obstacles are in my head. they keep sending me emails telling me the paperwork is incomplete and they STILL have me down as applying for summer 2022 not spring. and personally, im more passionate about psychology on a hobby level than medicine. My own biology professor even advised against medicine, and he has Autism like me. EDIT: Not to mention it would take longer to graduate from biology due to the school requirements being different.

Members don't see this ad.
 
If your reason for going into clinical psych is because you don't like something else, thats the wrong reason.

Also, you will not be competitive with a 2.3 GPA. Programs will not even consider you at all.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 10 users
If your reason for going into clinical psych is because you don't like something else, thats the wrong reason.

Also, you will not be competitive with a 2.3 GPA. Programs will not even consider you at all.
No, I'm going to transition to a bachelor's program and then improve my gpa. I only will have an associate's degree by the end of this year ( 2 year degree)
 
Members don't see this ad :)
If your reason for going into clinical psych is because you don't like something else, thats the wrong reason.

Also, you will not be competitive with a 2.3 GPA. Programs will not even consider you at all.
also I have a passion for psychology anyway. much of it is rooted in an ignorance in mental health i see in society and especially in my own culture, and my own family, that has greatly harmed me and which i see greatly harms others.
 
No, I'm going to transition to a bachelor's program and then improve my gpa. I only will have an associate's degree by the end of this year ( 2 year degree)
I wish you luck in your bachelor's program! To add on to what Justanothergrad said, clinical psychology is the most competitive type of phd program to apply to, and is generally considered equal to if not more competitive than applying to med school. To be competitive, you will need a strong GPA (3.5+ unless you have exceptional other credentials), independent research experience with poster presentations or publications, and a well-defined research interest that matches well with the specific professors you are applying to. This isn't to say that you can't pursue clinical psychology, but that I hope you understand it's similarly competitive to get accepted and difficult to complete.
 
  • Like
  • Care
Reactions: 7 users
If your reason for going into clinical psych is because you don't like something else, thats the wrong reason.

Also, you will not be competitive with a 2.3 GPA. Programs will not even consider you at all.

-Agreed. You need to really get that GPA up.
-Perhaps you can volunteer in a research lab and get to see what the day to day is like and if this is right for you.
-If you are struggling with math that much do know that statistics and related courses and working with quantitative data is a huge part of most PhD program.
- If diagnosed anxiety and OCD are interfering with your academics now they likely will at the graduate level. Seek treatment to help if you have not already.
- Considering a masters level program (LCSW; MFT; LPC) that may be more in line with your skills/interests (clinical work) and better odds of acceptance may be a path to look into.

Good luck
 
  • Like
  • Care
Reactions: 3 users
also I have a passion for psychology anyway. much of it is rooted in an ignorance in mental health i see in society and especially in my own culture, and my own family, that has greatly harmed me and which i see greatly harms others.
I don't want you to take this the wrong way but it seems like you need to spend a lot more time learning about this field and others before making any sort of decision or rationale for decisions
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 6 users
I wouldn't do a terminal master's (MSW, MFT, etc.) to get away from math. Any master's-level program that leads to licensure as a therapist will make you take a research class, so at the very least, you're looking at a year of stat. Ph.D. programs obviously have more math than master's programs, but you can't learn to understand or conduct research without some math. And this is aside from general study skills/writing skills/all the other skills you need to get a master's degree in any of these fields.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Aren't clinical psychology PhD programs are harder to get into or in the same competitiveness of a Medical school? Plus you must pass through the math and neurobiology highway. Conducting statistical analysis will require a solid understanding of calculus concepts. I wouldn't go into clinical psychology just as an alternative to medicine. If medicine is not for you, I doubt psychology will be. Plus becoming a psychologist requires a lot more personality than that of medical doctors, so from a personal perspective I think it will be a more difficult path to get into something not well researched if it fits your goals.

I was in your shoes but from the opposite end. I wanted to go into medical school (I had the grades and coursework met!) because I thought clinical psychology had a lot of the interpersonal skills that I lacked....however solidifying my passion to neuropsychology...i just figured out that with practice, i can overcome the barriers of the small stuff along my way... i knew i was a learnable person.
 
Don't worry everyone I already got accepted into the Biology program at Kennesaw State and am about to finish all the application requirements so I am more than likely to pursue medicine instead since I am able to pursue the math requirements there (also I heard from a department head here at Georgia Perimeter College math of the same class level is easier at Kennesaw State than Georgia State.). Either way, looks like I'll like be pursuing medicine, if not, I'll be back.
 
Don't worry everyone I already got accepted into the Biology program at Kennesaw State and am about to finish all the application requirements so I am more than likely to pursue medicine instead since I am able to pursue the math requirements there (also I heard from a department head here at Georgia Perimeter College math of the same class level is easier at Kennesaw State than Georgia State.). Either way, looks like I'll like be pursuing medicine, if not, I'll be back.
Wishing you the best in all of your endeavors - whether you pursue medicine or look into another field!
 
I wish you luck in your bachelor's program! To add on to what Justanothergrad said, clinical psychology is the most competitive type of phd program to apply to, and is generally considered equal to if not more competitive than applying to med school. To be competitive, you will need a strong GPA (3.5+ unless you have exceptional other credentials), independent research experience with poster presentations or publications, and a well-defined research interest that matches well with the specific professors you are applying to. This isn't to say that you can't pursue clinical psychology, but that I hope you understand it's similarly competitive to get accepted and difficult to complete.
Citation please regarding difficulty of getting into clinical psychology vs md program.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Members don't see this ad :)
Citation please regarding difficulty of getting into clinical psychology vs md program.

I think it's statistics--the ratio of applicants to open slots. I could be wrong though.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I’m always curious about this difference. I found this data:
Overall, it looks like it’s about 42% last year. That’s similar to acceptance rates of unfunded professional programs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I’m always curious about this difference. I found this data:
Overall, it looks like it’s about 42% last year. That’s similar to acceptance rates of unfunded professional programs.

I'm sure it differs based on competitiveness of program and we are dealing with a restricted range. To whomever wants to know, I recall the rates being around 13% for clinical psychology and 17% for counseling psychology Ph.D. programs from the insider's guide, which is based in Norcross's work. That doesn't account for Psy.D. programs or school psych programs. If someone has better information than that, I'm all ears.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Citation please regarding difficulty of getting into clinical psychology vs md program.

Not sure why it matters, but:
https://www.apa.org/education-career/grad/survey-data/2018-admissions-applications.pdf

"At the doctoral level, the highest number of programs, applications, and acceptances were found in clinical psychology, but with an overall acceptance rate of 12%. Acceptance rates for doctoral programs ranged between 8% and 15% across most subfields, but were noticeably higher for school psychology (31%) and other applied psychology (21%). Although nearly than 4 out of 5 (78%) of applications to other psychology subfield programs were accepted, the low number of programs (6) limits meaningful interpretation."

Per the AAMC link:

Overall Acceptance rate in medical school for the same time period: 42.3%
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Don't worry everyone I already got accepted into the Biology program at Kennesaw State and am about to finish all the application requirements so I am more than likely to pursue medicine instead since I am able to pursue the math requirements there (also I heard from a department head here at Georgia Perimeter College math of the same class level is easier at Kennesaw State than Georgia State.). Either way, looks like I'll like be pursuing medicine, if not, I'll be back.

Please don't get into anything because it is the easy way out. There will always be a crossroads where there are folks at the far end the of spectrum (striving! not just surviving!), and unless you're elevating the levels of interaction (which you kind of are here with the variety of responses), you'll likely be just surviving, possibly holding yourself and/or others back.

I suggest reading something on Abraham Maslow. Figure out what you want. Please don't enter my (our) field because you're a failure at another or it's the easy way out. It'll eventually be a waste of someone's time. And time is valuable.

Good luck! :luck:
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Bragging rights.
So it's a degree measuring contest. That can be difficult to judge. Our degree might be longer (in terms of years to completion not counting residency), but theirs is likely much wider (in terms of systems of the human body they must study). So, I guess it depends if you prefer longer or wider for your degree of study. Then again, some say it is all about how you use it (your degree that is, in terms of job prospects).
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
The percentage of people who get into a program is separate from the competitiveness of each program on its own. There are very different requirements and caliber of people applying to each program.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
The percentage of people who get into a program is separate from the competitiveness of each program on its own. There are very different requirements and caliber of people applying to each program.

Please operationally define "caliber of people".

I have a feeling that this going to devolve into pre-meds/physicians are smarter convos, which just is not true. They are simply people that are good at memorizing info and often bad at analyzing the math of student loans that suggests they should just be a nurse practitioner. I say this as a former pre-med with about a dozen physicians in the family.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
The percentage of people who get into a program is separate from the competitiveness of each program on its own. There are very different requirements and caliber of people applying to each program.

Definitely important to pay attention to Simpson's Paradox, but I think the general reason to report average admission data is to give students a very rough and dirty estimate of their chances based on their academic profile. As @Sanman pointed out, it's not a useful figure.
 
Please operationally define "caliber of people".

I have a feeling that this going to devolve into pre-meds/physicians are smarter convos, which just is not true. They are simply people that are good at memorizing info and often bad at analyzing the math of student loans that suggests they should just be a nurse practitioner. I say this as a former pre-med with about a dozen physicians in the family.

There actually is some (dated now) data on this, no significant difference in IQ between these groups. Though, that data is a couple decades old now, so the diploma mills may skew the data for clinical psych, but would probably be the same if you only counted reputable programs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
There actually is some (dated now) data on this, no significant difference in IQ between these groups. Though, that data is a couple decades old now, so the diploma mills may skew the data for clinical psych, but would probably be the same if you only counted reputable programs.
Iq isn't the only important measurement as you know. And I'm not trying to devolve the conversation just asked for citation to a statement.
 
Definitely important to pay attention to Simpson's Paradox, but I think the general reason to report average admission data is to give students a very rough and dirty estimate of their chances based on their academic profile. As @Sanman pointed out, it's not a useful figure.
Yes their chances, within their cohort, within their standard deviation curve of applicants.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Please operationally define "caliber of people".

I have a feeling that this going to devolve into pre-meds/physicians are smarter convos, which just is not true. They are simply people that are good at memorizing info and often bad at analyzing the math of student loans that suggests they should just be a nurse practitioner. I say this as a former pre-med with about a dozen physicians in the family.
Yes former premed...and we know the math.
 
Yes former premed...and we know the math.
It's amazing that you know every physician and their collective mathematical abilities personally. How do you have time to see any patients?

And that's Dr. Sanman, former college student Heist.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Iq isn't the only important measurement as you know. And I'm not trying to devolve the conversation just asked for citation to a statement.

Considering cognitive evaluation is my field, I am more than aware. Once you get into the higher end of average/high average IQ doesn't oredict much of anything all that well. So, citations were given on multiple possible indicators of the issue in question.
 
Considering cognitive evaluation is my field, I am more than aware. Once you get into the higher end of average/high average IQ doesn't oredict much of anything all that well. So, citations were given on multiple possible indicators of the issue in question.
Yes and they meant nothing. The fields aren't comparable.
 
It's amazing that you know every physician and their collective mathematical abilities personally. How do you have time to see any patients?

And that's Dr. Sanman, former college student Heist.
Doctorate in what? Please clarify.
 
  • Okay...
Reactions: 1 user
Doctorate in what? Please clarify.
Quantum mechanics and general relativity. I just hang out on the psychology boards to white knight in case internet trolls come knocking. Given my post count, it seems to happen more often than you would think.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: 1 user
Quantum mechanics and general relativity. I just hang out on the psychology boards to white knight in case internet trolls come knocking. Given my post count, it seems to happen more often than you would think.
After all that education then you felt like you had to do more... So sad ...
 
Yes and they meant nothing. The fields aren't comparable.
This is probably my low psychologist IQ showing, but I'm genuinely unclear what you are trying to argue at this point.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Psychologist here who was part of the admissions team at one of the top medical schools for several years and has done a fair bit of med student/resident education.

Raw acceptance rates certainly favor psychology being more competitive but I agree there are multiple factors at play here. Med school admissions are a lot more formulaic - you won't necessarily get into top programs, but if you tick the boxes I think odds are very, very good that you can get in somewhere while that is not necessarily true in psychology just because of how the admissions process works. That said, most of the "virtually a requirement" boxes are harder to tick for medical school than psychology. Medicine has done a better job protecting the educational system - the bottom rung prof schools lower the bar significantly in psychology - its an issue in medicine too, but not as widespread. Admissions decisions are based on completely different things though. When doing med school admissions I was encouraged to weight GPA much more heavily than I would have in a psychology program...a 3.9 GPA applicant was heavily favored over a 3.6 applicant. That difference is not completely insignificant in psychology admissions, but much less important given other factors take precedence. At the same time, what was considered "good" research experience for medical school (ignoring MD/PhD candidates) would fall somewhere between mediocre and utterly pathetic for psychology programs. In line with my earlier comment about "ticking boxes", medical school places more emphasis on markers over actual experience. Ironically "pubs" actually mattered more for medicine for this reason because no one looks that carefully at how deep the experience was. Those of us who have worked with pre-meds certainly see this - people crawling all over each other fighting to get their name on something by doing obscene amounts of scut to get "hours" without wanting to put in the effort to actually learn how to do anything. There is more emphasis on hours of doing things than what is actually done in those hours. Don't get me wrong - it does matter to some degree, just less than it should. All that said, I do think it makes top-top MD candidates overall stronger than the top-top PhD candidates I have seen just because they were more well-rounded. That said, we're talking about probably the top 5% of people who were admitted to a top program. Beyond that, it largely seems a wash. This continues in education. I've taken special courses in how to teach med students and the core take-home is "Don't make them think, they don't want to and aren't good at it - just give them stuff to brute-force memorize". Psychology education is often too far in the other direction (in my view) where things get discussed ad nauseam but no conclusion is made. It continues in the professional world where MDs make fun of psychologists for being wishy-washy and not being able to give clear off-the-cuff answers to even simple questions and psychologists make fun of MDs for being unthinking automatons who can't do anything unless someone else hands them an algorithm explaining how.

TLDR - Programs focus on different things. I don't think getting into either type of program is a major accomplishment in and of itself. Anyone of modest intelligence who really wants it and is willing to do the work should be able to succeed eventually. It may take strategizing and those strategies will be different.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
Psychologist here who was part of the admissions team at one of the top medical schools for several years and has done a fair bit of med student/resident education.

Raw acceptance rates certainly favor psychology being more competitive but I agree there are multiple factors at play here. Med school admissions are a lot more formulaic - you won't necessarily get into top programs, but if you tick the boxes I think odds are very, very good that you can get in somewhere while that is not necessarily true in psychology just because of how the admissions process works. That said, most of the "virtually a requirement" boxes are harder to tick for medical school than psychology. Medicine has done a better job protecting the educational system - the bottom rung prof schools lower the bar significantly in psychology - its an issue in medicine too, but not as widespread. Admissions decisions are based on completely different things though. When doing med school admissions I was encouraged to weight GPA much more heavily than I would have in a psychology program...a 3.9 GPA applicant was heavily favored over a 3.6 applicant. That difference is not completely insignificant in psychology admissions, but much less important given other factors take precedence. At the same time, what was considered "good" research experience for medical school (ignoring MD/PhD candidates) would fall somewhere between mediocre and utterly pathetic for psychology programs. In line with my earlier comment about "ticking boxes", medical school places more emphasis on markers over actual experience. Ironically "pubs" actually mattered more for medicine for this reason because no one looks that carefully at how deep the experience was. Those of us who have worked with pre-meds certainly see this - people crawling all over each other fighting to get their name on something by doing obscene amounts of scut to get "hours" without wanting to put in the effort to actually learn how to do anything. There is more emphasis on hours of doing things than what is actually done in those hours. Don't get me wrong - it does matter to some degree, just less than it should. All that said, I do think it makes top-top MD candidates overall stronger than the top-top PhD candidates I have seen just because they were more well-rounded. That said, we're talking about probably the top 5% of people who were admitted to a top program. Beyond that, it largely seems a wash. This continues in education. I've taken special courses in how to teach med students and the core take-home is "Don't make them think, they don't want to and aren't good at it - just give them stuff to brute-force memorize". Psychology education is often too far in the other direction (in my view) where things get discussed ad nauseam but no conclusion is made. It continues in the professional world where MDs make fun of psychologists for being wishy-washy and not being able to give clear off-the-cuff answers to even simple questions and psychologists make fun of MDs for being unthinking automatons who can't do anything unless someone else hands them an algorithm explaining how.

TLDR - Programs focus on different things. I don't think getting into either type of program is a major accomplishment in and of itself. Anyone of modest intelligence who really wants it and is willing to do the work should be able to succeed eventually. It may take strategizing and those strategies will be different.
I havent noticed the PsyD diploma mills being that difficult to get into. And there are ALOT of them.
 
I havent noticed the PsyD diploma mills being that difficult to get into. And there are ALOT of them.
Again, what is your point here? I really appreciated all the information Ollie provided, especially about how medical school and clinical psychology PhD applications simply look at different things. My original point, which is consistent with what many others have said, was simply that medicine and clinical psychology are BOTH competitive, and neither should be immediately replaced by the other as an "easier" goal. Each might be easier for a specific person because of what admissions committees look for and whether your skills and abilities line up better with attaining one set of qualifications.

Do you disagree with this? It seems to me like we're just devolving into an argument about the relative size of pretty indistinguishably large objects...
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I havent noticed the PsyD diploma mills being that difficult to get into. And there are ALOT of them.
No disagreement from me. Addressed in the following statement in my first post.
Medicine has done a better job protecting the educational system - the bottom rung prof schools lower the bar significantly in psychology - its an issue in medicine too, but not as widespread.


Caribbean medical schools are a reasonably good analogy. High acceptance, high attrition, many attendees will not succeed in the end and even those who do "succeed" are usually not on the same career trajectory as those at traditional programs. Absolutely psychology has more of these types of programs. Its a shame it has become as widespread as it has in psychology and many of us don't consider their grads "real" psychologists. Just like the caribbean grad who never got a residency isn't a real physician (in any sense other than the debt load!). We do a trash job keeping these people from practicing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
I havent noticed the PsyD diploma mills being that difficult to get into. And there are ALOT of them.
Mr. Physician (@Heist), I often comment that if you cannot elevate the level of discourse on these boards, get lost.

You're writing as if you're a layperson with an MD. Congratulations...you did it (!). None of us truly care about the lame points you're attempting to make (and, yes, I've gone straight ad hominem on you, of which I generally don't,...sorry, not sorry....), but your patients do care about you, as well as your loved ones...so tuck that ego away...and get back to work.
xoxo :biglove:
 
I am going to direct us back to psychology programs.....

So something happened to me today... I am applying to PhD programs in clinical psychology and yet i did not submit my applications. After contacting a potential mentor with my CV and brief information about my research interests, she invited me to a zoom chat!

What does this mean and how usual is this to happen? that a potential PI picks a chat with you before you even submit the application?

Am I in a good position because i can give them a first impression before they get to read my application?

Thanks!
 
Top