IMG and Surgery

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

django7

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
May 3, 2013
Messages
61
Reaction score
7
ggg

Members don't see this ad.
 
Last edited:
hello. I did some research and trying to decide on the best strategy for the match. Looking for some advice

I am a Caribbean IMG applying for the 2016 match. Step 1: 230s Step 2ck: 240s. I graduate in May so I will have ECFMG certificate when i send out applications. Research at a big name university. Also have my name on 2 infectious disease papers. I have 2 surgery LORs.

I am passionate about surgery and plan to apply to both categorical and prelim positions. According to charting outcomes the best odds to match surgery is to only rank surgery. My chances at a prelim spot are ok but my chances to get categorical interviews are not good. So.....

Should i apply for medicine as a back up? The odds to match surgery are lower if ranking 2 specialties. I am dedicated to surgery but i would prefer to not go unmatched :(
Also Ive heard mixed feelings about applying to 2 specialties at the same hospital? What is the general consensus.

So here are my choices:

#1 Go all in surgery. Apply categorical and prelim.
#2 Apply categorical and prelim and also medicine as a back up (although less categorical and prelim that #1)
#3 Apply prelim only and medicine as a back up
#4 Work at walmart
The two specialty decreasing odds of matching surgery is self fulfilling prophecy... This includes ortho/ns/plastics/ent etc with gs as backup and the borderline applicants with gs/Im/other...
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
The decrease in match rates for those that ranked more than one specialty isn't because they ranked multiple specialties, it's because they had less contiguous ranks of their primary specialty choice, often substantially less.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
You'll need 3 LORs for most surgery programs; and most programs strongly prefer that they're all from surgeons.

I'd apply surgery categorical and prelim (broadly) as well as IM. Once you see how many IVs you are getting surg categorical, you can better determine how many IM interviews you want to do (although IM tends to interview earlier than GS...). Make sure that you research the programs to which you apply and know that they look at IMG applicants. I personally wouldn't apply to IM and surg at the same program. You'll also need IM LORs.
 
The decrease in match rates for those that ranked more than one specialty isn't because they ranked multiple specialties, it's because they had less contiguous ranks of their primary specialty choice, often substantially less.

Thanks for the reply. So if someone applies to GS as primary and IM as backup, and then gets 10 GS interviews and only 4 IM interviews...then he didnt even bother ranking the 4 IM spots?
I interpreted that data that if someone puts their eggs in one basket then they will also apply to more programs in that 1 specialty, sub sequentially increasing the odds of getting more interviews (ranking more programs) and matching
 
You'll need 3 LORs for most surgery programs; and most programs strongly prefer that they're all from surgeons.

I'd apply surgery categorical and prelim (broadly) as well as IM. Once you see how many IVs you are getting surg categorical, you can better determine how many IM interviews you want to do (although IM tends to interview earlier than GS...). Make sure that you research the programs to which you apply and know that they look at IMG applicants. I personally wouldn't apply to IM and surg at the same program. You'll also need IM LORs.

Thanks. I will try to get another surgery LOR but I might be stuck with 1 generic IM LOR for surgery applications :(

That's what I was thinking. Although IMG's cant take the risk of not going to an interview so Id go to every interview regardless of specialty and then rank accordingly. Is their any downside to that?
I am weary of going to surgery interviews with the idea of having IM as a backup. That might come up in an interview. From what Ive seen surgery directors want dedicated people.
 
Thanks for the reply. So if someone applies to GS as primary and IM as backup, and then gets 10 GS interviews and only 4 IM interviews...then he didnt even bother ranking the 4 IM spots?
I interpreted that data that if someone puts their eggs in one basket then they will also apply to more programs in that 1 specialty, sub sequentially increasing the odds of getting more interviews (ranking more programs) and matching
You don't have to divide things out if you have the resources- if you get 10 GS interviews and 10 IM interviews, you could do and rank all 20 if you so chose and it wouldn't affect your odds. What is more likely is that candidates that had less interviews in their specialty overall (say, 2 GS interviews and 14 IM interviews) were less likely to match to GS, and more likely to rank more than one specialty. Rank every interview you get, because you could get 14 and not match GS if you were unlucky, and then IM will be looking pretty damn beautiful.
 
Thanks. I will try to get another surgery LOR but I might be stuck with 1 generic IM LOR for surgery applications :(

That's what I was thinking. Although IMG's cant take the risk of not going to an interview so Id go to every interview regardless of specialty and then rank accordingly. Is their any downside to that?
I am weary of going to surgery interviews with the idea of having IM as a backup. That might come up in an interview. From what Ive seen surgery directors want dedicated people.

What are you doing between now and August 2015? Any chance for another LOR/more connections there?

Yeah, absolutely go to every interview you can. Sorry, worded it poorly - I meant IM tends to interview a bit earlier and so you may already have some booked before GS; in that case, when/if the GS IVs come, you'll have to pick a date and it may interfere with the already planned IM interview. You may also have to decide between categorical IM interview and surg prelim interview. (Personally, I'd go with the categorical IM over surg prelim). But, regardless, go to all interviews that you can; downside is time, money, and exhaustion.

Yes, PDs want dedicated people. Don't volunteer that you're applying IM and GS. Do your best to direct the conversation and have a good answer ready for that.
 
What are you doing between now and August 2015? Any chance for another LOR/more connections there?

Yeah, absolutely go to every interview you can. Sorry, worded it poorly - I meant IM tends to interview a bit earlier and so you may already have some booked before GS; in that case, when/if the GS IVs come, you'll have to pick a date and it may interfere with the already planned IM interview. You may also have to decide between categorical IM interview and surg prelim interview. (Personally, I'd go with the categorical IM over surg prelim). But, regardless, go to all interviews that you can; downside is time, money, and exhaustion.

Yes, PDs want dedicated people. Don't volunteer that you're applying IM and GS. Do your best to direct the conversation and have a good answer ready for that.

thanks. im in the hunt for another surgery LOR.

Does it look bad to show interest in programs before September? For example contacting through email? My scores are not spectacular so Im just trying to do anything to get noticed. at the very least they will look at my application vs the silent rejection

I think you're overthinking the data.

People who rank multiple specialties are less likely to match in general surgery not because of any focus/effort/attention. It's purely numbers and the rank list. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy as said above because you either have people dual applying in a competitive specialty like plastics and using general surgery as a backup, or you have marginal candidates who aren't getting a ton of interviews (and who in a lot of cases will mix and match on their rank list - i.e. rank a "solid" IM program ahead of a undesirable surgery one).

gotcha. makes sense. I plan to apply to both surgery and medicine in that case
 
Ya it doesn't make any sense that dual applying decreases your chances of matching into GS. Those two things are not correlated. Your confounding variable is that people who tend to dual apply into let say IM probably don't have a stellar application that will guarantee them a match into surgery.

Plus why would you not dual apply as a IMG. Surgery is not kind to IMGs in general. Most of the ones I met this season had about 1-3 interviews. Those with 3 interviews had already done a prelim year. There are more AMG applying into surgery than there are positions. So unless you have a stellar application, getting interviews will be difficult. Even if you got an interviews, wil surgery being very competitive these days, there is a low chance you will match.

I would NOT apply to GS and IM in the same hospital. Thats a no no in general. Definitely apply broadly and and to as many programs as you can. Even for IM, the average step 1 scores at my school program where they take many FMGs is 240+. So from now until application try to get that extra LOR and get some awesome IM LORs. Work on an awesome PS. And find out which programs have matched IMGs before and focus on those. Apply to as many as u can!!! Good luck!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Question for those that have dual applied IM and GS...
Say that on an IM interview, the PD notices that you did 1 or 2 Gen Surg elective Sub-I's or even Surgery subspecialties instead of IM subspecialties, wouldn't that raise suspicion in the PD's eyes that you are viewing IM as a back up? How would you explain that?
 
Top