IMG clinical requirements question.

[Lexmark]

I have often seen reference to the need for IMG's to have done their med school rotations at "green book" or training sites. Could someone tell me what that means. Why can't an IMG have done all of their rotations at Podunk community hospital? I knew someone who went to St. Georges, did all of years 3 and 4 in the UK and came back here and did her residency.

And do different states have different requirement regarding IMG's and off-shore students? I saw a notice from Ross (I think) saying that their students were approved for clinicals in New York. I would have thought an agreement between a school and a hospital was nothing to do with the state.

Also, what do IMG's so about liability insurance - I suppose their schools provide it. And do most off-shore students do their rotations in the same hospital / area? If not, that must get pretty expensive and be pretty disruptive if they have to move cities all the time.

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[Swaydaa]

I have often seen reference to the need for IMG's to have done their med school rotations at "green book" or training sites. Could someone tell me what that means. Why can't an IMG have done all of their rotations at Podunk community hospital? I knew someone who went to St. Georges, did all of years 3 and 4 in the UK and came back here and did her residency.

And do different states have different requirement regarding IMG's and off-shore students? I saw a notice from Ross (I think) saying that their students were approved for clinicals in New York. I would have thought an agreement between a school and a hospital was nothing to do with the state.

Also, what do IMG's so about liability insurance - I suppose their schools provide it. And do most off-shore students do their rotations in the same hospital / area? If not, that must get pretty expensive and be pretty disruptive if they have to move cities all the time.

Schools that are ECFMG certified don't need to worry about "green book" sites (don't confuse with a student being ECFMG certified...as we all need to be certified before residency). Ross, SGU, and AUC are all ECFMG certified schools. I know that a few others are trying to get this certification. I know Ross includes the insurance in tuition.

You can set up your own rotations, but you need to be careful if you are not at one the 3 named above as you will need the "green book" rotations. Ross, Sgu, and AUC have hundreds of clinical sites (california, chiacgo, maryland, NJ, CT., OHio, NY...to name a few)....plus all the ones you can set up on your own.

 

[Miklos]

Schools that are ECFMG certified don't need to worry about "green book" sites (don't confuse with a student being ECFMG certified...as we all need to be certified before residency). Ross, SGU, and AUC are all ECFMG certified schools. I know that a few others are trying to get this certification.

You can set up your own rotations, but you need to be careful if you are not at one the 3 named above as you will need the "green book" rotations. Ross, Sgu, and AUC have hundreds of clinical sites (california, chiacgo, maryland, NJ, CT., OHio, NY...to name a few)....plus all the ones you can set up on your own.

This is NOT TRUE. The ECFMG merely lists med schools via IMED imed.ecfmg.org. They have nothing to do with certifying the quality of the education apart from listing the medical school.

Licensing (as well as clinical rotations) is governed by individual state medical boards which set their own requirements.

Examples:

-NY, which will not allow foreign medical students to do more than 12 weeks of clinical rotations unless their school is approved. See http://www.op.nysed.gov/medforms.htm

-California which legally bars foreign students from doing ANY clinical rotations unless their school/program is approved. See http://www.medbd.ca.gov/Approved_Schools.htm and http://www.medbd.ca.gov/Unapproved_Med_Schools.htm

Individual state medical boards may require that your US rotations be completed at ACGME approved residency programs (aka "green book" sites). This depends entirely on the individual state board.

For more information on this topic, see for instance, the State Licensing forum and the Clinical Rotations forum at www.valuemd.com

Please research this and go back and edit your post.

Miklos

 

[Miklos]

I have often seen reference to the need for IMG's to have done their med school rotations at "green book" or training sites. Could someone tell me what that means. Why can't an IMG have done all of their rotations at Podunk community hospital? I knew someone who went to St. Georges, did all of years 3 and 4 in the UK and came back here and did her residency.

I think that I've answered that above. There is a difference between how some state medical boards view clinical rotations done by IMGs in the U.S. and abroad.

But, a word of caution!

California, for instance, regulates even those done abroad and will not accept those done outside of major teaching hospitals that have affiliation agreements with the home med school that satisfy California law. In addition, these will need to be documented by the student apart from the home medical school.

New York requires the med student to document this as well, unless from an approved school. See from the link above regarding Form 2CC

Use this form only if you are a graduate of a non-LCME-accredited medical school located in one country but completed one or more clinical clerkships in another country.

Please Note: This form must be mailed directly to the Office of the Professions by the hospital in its identifying envelope. We will not accept this form if it is submitted by the applicant or a third party.

Form 2CC is not needed for graduates of the following medical schools, which have been approved by the New York State Education Department to allow students to complete more than 12 weeks of clinical clerkships in New York State. The schools are:

* St. George's University School of Medicine, St. George's, Grenada
* Ross University School of Medicine, Roseau, Dominica
* Fatima College of Medicine, Manila, Philippines
* The Autonomous University of Guadalajara, Guadalajara, Mexico
* International Health and Medicine Program, Ben Gurion University of the Negrev, Beer-Sheva, Israel
* English Language Program, Medical University of Lublin, Lublin, Poland
* English Language Program, Medical University of Silesia, Katowice, Poland
* American University of the Caribbean, St. Martin, Netherland Antilles
* Saba University School of Medicine, Saba, Netherland Antilles
* St. Matthew's University School of Medicine, Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands

And do different states have different requirement regarding IMG's and off-shore students? I saw a notice from Ross (I think) saying that their students were approved for clinicals in New York. I would have thought an agreement between a school and a hospital was nothing to do with the state.

See above.

Also, what do IMG's so about liability insurance - I suppose their schools provide it. And do most off-shore students do their rotations in the same hospital / area? If not, that must get pretty expensive and be pretty disruptive if they have to move cities all the time.

Not all schools provide liabilty insurance. This can be a problem, as can the availability of clinical rotations. Yes, they can get expensive.

 

[neilc]

Schools that are ECFMG certified don't need to worry about "green book" sites (don't confuse with a student being ECFMG certified...as we all need to be certified before residency). Ross, SGU, and AUC are all ECFMG certified schools. I know that a few others are trying to get this certification. I know Ross includes the insurance in tuition.

You can set up your own rotations, but you need to be careful if you are not at one the 3 named above as you will need the "green book" rotations. Ross, Sgu, and AUC have hundreds of clinical sites (california, chiacgo, maryland, NJ, CT., OHio, NY...to name a few)....plus all the ones you can set up on your own.

yikes! ignore this post!!!! it is completely false...

listen to miklos, he got it right.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Ditto. Miklos has it right. ECFMG does NOT certify any schools, US or otherwise.

"Green Book" refers to the hardbound book (bound in green vinyl) which lists the ACGME approved residencies. It used to be the bible for searching available residencies - we now have FREIDA and other sources but the Green Book can still be found in most large university or medical libraries.

The recommendation is made because as stated above many states will only count rotations done at these sites when counting clinical experience toward interim licensing. In particular allopathic students doing rotations at osteopathic programs had better make sure (before doing the rotation) that it will be approved by any state in which they may possibly do residency.

Hope the above helps.

 

[Lexmark]

Thanks everyone for the info - it's certainly given me a lot to look into and read up on. My curiosity stems from the fact that I'm a dual UK/US citizen who would like to return home and practice one day - consequently, I am always interested in how mobile medical degrees are between countries. For example, the DO degree is not recognised in the UK, but there are ways around that issue - PM me for details.

I recall that Jackson Park hospital in Chicago always has several Ross students and some of them seemed to be in Chicago for most of their rotations - does Illinois have more relaxed rules than most other states? And does anyone know about Florida?

 

[Winged Scapula]

Thanks everyone for the info - it's certainly given me a lot to look into and read up on. My curiosity stems from the fact that I'm a dual UK/US citizen who would like to return home and practice one day - consequently, I am always interested in how mobile medical degrees are between countries. For example, the DO degree is not recognised in the UK, but there are ways around that issue - PM me for details.

I recall that Jackson Park hospital in Chicago always has several Ross students and some of them seemed to be in Chicago for most of their rotations - does Illinois have more relaxed rules than most other states? And does anyone know about Florida?

Ross has several US hospitals which are approved for their students to do clinical rotations; I'm sure Jackson Park is one of them. Does Jackson Park have any allopathic residencies? If so, it would be an ACGME hospital. I'm not sure about how strict Il or Fl are - traditionally, Texas, Cali and Pa are among the most strict but all have IMGs so they aren't insurmountable rules. Check with the state boards at http://www.fsmb.org for further details by state.

 

[Swaydaa]

Sorry guys if I'm wrong. The information I received came from an in depth conversation with 2 St Matthews and 1 SABA student while on an OB rotation at St. Anthony's Hospital in Chicago. The SABA student scored greater than 240 on both steps and graduating at the top of his class....so I assumed he knew what he was talking about.

All 3 stated that their school was "not ECFMG certified yet" and something about how long the schools have been in operation. He went on to say that they are recognized by the World Health Organization (WHO) so they were able to get licensure, but only at "Greenbook" sites.

Like I said with my opening...I apologize if I'm wrong. I just thought after hearing this from 3 sources it was true.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Sorry guys if I'm wrong. The information I received came from an in depth conversation with 2 St Matthews and 1 SABA student while on an OB rotation at St. Anthony's Hospital in Chicago. The SABA student scored greater than 240 on both steps and graduating at the top of his class....so I assumed he knew what he was talking about.

All 3 stated that their school was "not ECFMG certified yet" and something about how long the schools have been in operation. He went on to say that they are recognized by the World Health Organization (WHO) so they were able to get licensure, but only at "Greenbook" sites.

Like I said with my opening...I apologize if I'm wrong. I just thought after hearing this from 3 sources it was true.

No worries...we just wanted to make sure the correct information gets out.

As said, earlier ECFMG does not certify schools, only applicants.

A WHO listing is a prerequisite to an individual obtaining ECFMG certification but the listing in and of itself does not imply quality or any measure of certification or accredidation by ECFMG or any other licensing body. In the words of WHO, "Readers are reminded that WHO has no authority to grant any form of recognition or accreditation to schools of medicine or other training institutions. Such a procedure remains the exclusive prerogative of the national government concerned. WHO limits itself to publishing information on medical schools that has been provided or confirmed by the governments of its Member States."

Licenses are issued by the state medical boards in the US, not by residency programs, medical schools or "Greenbook" sites.

States have varying requirements as to what they will accept in terms of required amount of clinical exposure and at what types of programs. A state will generally approve a rotation done at a greenbook site for inclusion in its requirements for clinical rotations needed to become licensed, but again, doing a rotation at a greenbook site does not guarantee one licensure nor more than finishing medical school does.

You might want to direct your sources to this page as it sounds as if they are a bit confused, or the conversation was misunderstood on one end or the other.