Importance of Pre-clinical Grades

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Dr34566

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How important are pre-clinical grades in terms of residency applications? It seems like they can't be very important since so many schools are P/F for those years. It doesn't seem fair for a residency director to distinguish on this basis when some students can only get a P compared to an H. Is that true or does it actually have a bearing?

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How important are pre-clinical grades in terms of residency applications? It seems like they can't be very important since so many schools are P/F for those years. It doesn't seem fair for a residency director to distinguish on this basis when some students can only get a P compared to an H. Is that true or does it actually have a bearing?

I've heard there still is a way to rank students, despite most schools being P/F. Is this true??
 
I've heard that schools like Yale don't rank their students at all. They also don't do AOA until after match. I am not sure how that affects the situation.
 
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How important are pre-clinical grades in terms of residency applications? It seems like they can't be very important since so many schools are P/F for those years. It doesn't seem fair for a residency director to distinguish on this basis when some students can only get a P compared to an H. Is that true or does it actually have a bearing?

Depends in part on how competitive a field you are going into. The most competitive fields (derm, optho) probably have enough stellar applicants that they need to use that criteria more heavilly in their consideration. But in general, (according to a former residency director I have frequently spoken with for advice) they "count", but not a whole lot. Second year more than first, which is the least important. AOA is a helpful credential if your school even has it (but is not always given based solely on numbers), and getting Honors always looks nice on the transcript, but all the preclinical grades really do is help determine your rank which helps determine what your Dean's letter is going to say, and those years of course tend to be important prep for Step 1, which does count a lot. You can also hurt yourself a bit if you fail things and have to repeat, so try and avoid that. If you do okay in everything and do well on Step 1 and in your rotations, the actually grades you had in those first two years are pretty meaningless. This is the "dirty little secret" of med school, according to him (that they never tell you that the grades you are working so hard to get barely count). I'm sure there are others from different schools who have gotten different advice, but I don't think any list of criteria I have seen lists preclinical grades in the top handful of things residency directors consider most important. So it is different than undergrad, where classroom grades are hugely important. It will be hard to change that mindset, and the gunners in the class never will -- the point is now to learn stuff (even from your mistakes), not just get a score.

At any rate, you need to just do your best throughout but not worry so much if things don't work out as you hope. A big part of first year is figuring out what works, so many people will experiment and do not as well in an initial class or two before they hit their stride. That is fine -- there is plenty of time to right this ship. That's my two cents.
 
Just because your transcript only shows P/F, it doesn't mean they aren't keeping track of your raw scores.
 
Just because your transcript only shows P/F, it doesn't mean they aren't keeping track of your raw scores.

We've got H/HP/P/LP/F and no official ranking system, but the admin keeps track of each of our individual exam scores in relation to the rest of the class to use for AOA and stuff. They told us this in M1 orientation then at M3 registration. A bunch of people had forgotten, so they were like, "oh crap!"
 
I worked as a tech for an optho residency director before i starteded school, He would always say that hes not gonna try to figure out "160 completley F***ing different grading systems". He would " notice grades" but said the only thing important in preclinical years was not failing.
 
Just because your transcript only shows P/F, it doesn't mean they aren't keeping track of your raw scores.
So true. Our first semester was "P/F", but the raw scores were still used to give academic awards at the end of preclinical years.
 
The Successful Match: Clerkship Grades
By Student Doctor Network
Posted on July 1, 2007
Filed Under The Successful Match

By Samir P. Desai, M.D., and Rajani Katta, M.D.
Authors of 250 Biggest Mistakes 3rd Year Medical Students Make And How To Avoid Them

Which of the following is the most important academic criterion used by program directors to select residents?

A) USMLE step 1 score
B) USMLE step 2 CK score
C) Pre-clinical course grades
D) Third-year clerkship grades
E) Membership in Alpha Omega Alpha (AOA)


In our own surveys, we have found that students almost always answer this question incorrectly. Students generally base their answer on information gathered from classmates, upperclassmen, residents, and discussion forums, among others. These are all useful sources of information. The ideal way to answer this question, though, would be to discuss it with those individuals directly involved in the residency selection process—in particular, program directors in your chosen field. Ideally, this should be done early in your medical school education. With this knowledge in hand, you can make the most of your opportunities, placing yourself in a position to succeed and match with the specialty or program of your choice.

Fortunately, others have done this work and published their findings. A survey of approximately 800 program directors was performed by Dr. Wagoner, the former dean of students at the University of Chicago Pritzker School of Medicine. These program directors represented 14 specialties, and were surveyed about the importance of various academic criteria used in the selection of residents.1 Dr. Wagoner and her colleagues learned that grades in required clerkships are the most important academic criteria used to select residents.

At most schools, required or core clerkships include internal medicine, pediatrics, psychiatry, surgery, obstetrics/gynecology, and family medicine.Most medical students are surprised to learn that grades in required clerkships are ranked higher in importance than USMLE scores. In our inaugural column, we presented data from a survey showing that 44% of students from three U.S. medical schools perceived required third-year clerkship grades as moderately, mildly, or not at all important in the residency selection process.2

While many reasons exist for this disconnect between the perceived and actual importance of clerkship grades, we know that this can impact students’ efforts and attitudes during rotations.

As this article goes to press, we recognize that thousands of students across the country have begun, or are about to begin, their third year of medical school. Put simply, your performance this academic year can make or break your chances of a successful match.

Grades in required clerkships are the most important academic criteria used to select residents.
“Number of honors clerkship grades” was the second most important academic criteria used to select residents in the most competitive specialties.
Clerkship grades are the major determinant of class rank. The most competitive specialties rate class rank among the three most important selection criteria.
Clerkship grades are a major factor used by schools in electing students to the Alpha Omega Alpha Honor Medical Society (AOA). Election to AOA is highly valued by many competitive specialties. In some programs, and in some specialties such as dermatology, membership in AOA is used as a screening tool to determine which applicants are even considered for interviews.
Comments made by attending physicians on the clerkship evaluation form find their way, often verbatim, into the Medical Student Performance Evaluation (MSPE). The MSPE, formerly known as the Dean’s letter, is often scrutinized closely by residency programs.
Clerkship performance and grades are important in securing strong letters of recommendation. In competitive residencies where many applicants have excelled academically, letters of recommendation take on additional importance.
We present one final question: Which of the following is the most important academic criterion used by ophthalmology program directors to select residents?

A) USMLE step 1 score
B) Alpha Omega Alpha
C) USMLE step 2 CK score
D) Grades in required third-year clerkships
E) Grades in the ophthalmology clerkship

If you selected choice D, congratulations. The correct answer is indeed “grades in required third-year clerkships.” In the Wagoner study, 46 ophthalmology program directors were surveyed. Grades in required clerkships and the number of honors grades were ranked higher in importance than grades from ophthalmology electives.

Is this finding surprising? In our experience, all students recognize the importance of grades in their chosen specialty. However, fewer understand the overall importance of grades in required clerkships. A review of various discussion forums reinforces this finding.

In our next column, we’ll discuss the transition between the basic science and clinical years of medical school: what makes the transition such a challenge, and can be done to excel?

References

1. Wagoner NE, Suriano JR. Program directors’ responses to a survey on variables used to select residents in a time of change. Acad Med 1999; 74(1):51-8.

2. Brandenburg S, Kruzick T, Lin CT, Robinson A, and Adams LJ. Residency selection criteria: what medical students perceive as important. Med Educ Online 2005; 10:17.

The discussion thread for this article may be found here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=5328043
 
The Successful Match: Clerkship Grades
By Student Doctor Network
Posted on July 1, 2007
Filed Under The Successful Match

Interesting article, but not very helpful for the OP's question, which asked about pre-clinical grades (the article only talks about how important clinical year grades are).
 
Honestly, I don't think they're as important as other things, but you're going to find people who are going to tell you all kinds of conflicting things. I've heard a residency director (not a super competitive one, though) say they're not focusing on clerkship grades anymore because they're so subjective and he believes there's too much grade inflation, so high first and second year grades are a great way to distinguish yourself. Of course, you'll find people who say that Step 1 matters the most, that clerkship grades matter the most.

Really, I think first year grades basically hurt more than they help. No one's going to care that you aced Histology. But if you had to retake anatomy or physiology, it may raise a red flag.

The best way to think of it, in my opinion is it's all a continuum. If you work hard the first two years, you're more likely to have a good Step 1, and you're more likely to be able to seem competent third and fourth year. Just try your best and you'll probably do okay.
 
Is there anyway to determine if a school really is P/F are this fake P/F? I deciding between two fantastic schools and this is one of the major differences between the two (the grading scheme). Is it worth it to go a graded school and kill yourself for H's when the other school you relax a little more and get P's if it is a true P/F with no ranking.
 
Is there anyway to determine if a school really is P/F are this fake P/F? I deciding between two fantastic schools and this is one of the major differences between the two (the grading scheme). Is it worth it to go a graded school and kill yourself for H's when the other school you relax a little more and get P's if it is a true P/F with no ranking.

ive never understood this. you are planning to do your best no matter what, correct? so if this means you get a 95 and Honor the class, or get a 95 and pass this class, its all this same. you dont go to a P/F school and coast by with 70s just bc there are no grades = med school isnt for relaxing. if however ure worried about competition due to a H/HP/P/F system that enforces a bell curve, then thats def something to worry about
 
ive never understood this. you are planning to do your best no matter what, correct? so if this means you get a 95 and Honor the class, or get a 95 and pass this class, its all this same. you dont go to a P/F school and coast by with 70s just bc there are no grades = med school isnt for relaxing. if however ure worried about competition due to a H/HP/P/F system that enforces a bell curve, then thats def something to worry about

Agree with this. Plan to do the best you can wherever you go. Keep in mind that how well you assimilate the first two years material will benefit you when you study for Step 1, or prepare you for clerkship pimping. You will end up in about the same situation in the end (in terms of stress, residency, etc) regardless of what grading system your school uses.
 
Agree with this. Plan to do the best you can wherever you go. Keep in mind that how well you assimilate the first two years material will benefit you when you study for Step 1, or prepare you for clerkship pimping. You will end up in about the same situation in the end (in terms of stress, residency, etc) regardless of what grading system your school uses.

You're being too self-important. We all relax when we realize we're not going to make honors but we are going to pass, it's human nature. We still learn the material but don't kill ourselves over the details.
 
You're being too self-important. We all relax when we realize we're not going to make honors but we are going to pass, it's human nature. We still learn the material but don't kill ourselves over the details.

Disagree. Lots of people continue to try to do their best even when they realize their best will just end up a P. (Some schools help you out on this by making failure a real possible outcome of not working hard.) It isn't about self importance -- it is simply myopic to consider the grade as the only reason you are learning this stuff. That was undergrad. Some people are past that. It's about seeing the big picture.
 
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