Important Question!!!

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Firebird

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When you get into residency, how strict are they about your scheduling?

I ask this because I'm a very religious person and part of my beliefs require me to be at church on Sunday mornings, without fail.

I would simply be asking off from 10:30 to 12:00 noon on Sunday mornings. I would be more than willing to make up any of that time with extra hours, etc.

Any help/info would be extremely appreciated...especially some info from any hospital administrators.

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It depends on the residency, but most are very strict! I understand that we're talking about your religious beliefs, but you have to understand how the system works. If you are on duty you CAN'T leave because YOU are the one responsible for the patients...what if someone coded while you were gone? Also, I seriously doubt that your fellow residents would be willing to cover for you EVERY time you had to work on Sunday. That wouldn't be fair to them. What religion are you? I've never heard of a religion that mandated it's followers to be at church at a specific time on a specific day.
 
Many of the laws of the three major monotheistic religions (Judaism, Islam, Christianity) were laid down two millenia or more ago, in agricultural and pastoral societies when complex modern situations such as the one under discussion were unimagined. (If your belief is that because they are GOD-given and thus necessarily inflexible, end of my discussion). But there are religions, or religious groups, which have found reasons to reinterpret mandates to accomodate new situations unknown in the ancient texts.

An example I am familiar with is orthodox Jewry. "Old" Testament Scripture, accepted by Christianity, says the sabbath is holy and work is not to be enagaged in. But many orthodox rabbis say one exception to this stricture is when saving a life is at issue. This exception is broadened to include permitting physicians to be on call when required to even though a particular life might not be in immediate jeopardy.

I suggest therefore, that you consult your priest, pastor, minister to find out if there are exceptions like this to what appear to you to be inflexible injunctions. If there is one that applies in your situation, then there may be no conflict between your beliefs and your assignments.


 
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I've asked this question to a great deal of people. Many find it hard to fathom that I believe I must be in worship on Sunday morning. Many have told me to do what you said...ask my preacher. What most don't realize is that I've wanted to be a doctor since middle school and since then, I've understood the moral dilemma that I am faced with.

There are no exceptions--except situations in which I can not physically make it to services (i.e. personal sickness, massive blizzard, etc.).

As for my religion, I am a Christian. I have no denominational ties; simply, we try to live by the principles laid out in the New Testament--which are not flexible. As the Bible says Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and so is his Will for mankind.

Therefore, when Sunday rolls around, at 10:30 am I plan on being in church. I know this seems very rigid and dogmatic, but we very serious when it comes to spiritual matters. Hopefully, it will work out and I can lead the life of a Christian as I lead the life of a Doctor.
 
Firebird-
I am also a Christian with strong beliefs in honoring God and His Word. But I have to say that the God I serve broke me free from the "Law" when He was resurrected. Don't get caught up in the Letter of the Law as Paul states. Ask God, He will tell you. Just be careful you are not being Legalistic. When I work on Sundays, a 24 hour shift I might add, at a Trauma Hospital, I have asked God to give me avenues to meet corporately with His Body. I have found Friday night meetings, Saturday evenings and Sunday evenings. Depending on my schedule I have places to worship. And believe it or not, at times I'm too tired. And it is Okay. My relationship with God is not so fragil that If I'm not in church at 10:30 on Sunday mornings, I will somehow dishonor Him or me. I want you to know I respect your desire to honor the Lord. Keep in mind there are other ways to accomplish being in church. What do you think a pastor is doing on Sunday morning? He's working. Trust me I come from a long line of pastors. It is work. It is their "Calling" but so is being a doctor. Talk to God.... you're going to need to find out what He has to say because You WILL absolutely be expected to work on Sundays. And depending on where you match for your residency, you probably won't be in the area of your "home" church anyway. For the next four plus years, you need to be flexible! Are you sure Medicine is where you are to be?
I'll pray for you.
Madison

[This message has been edited by Madison (edited 03-17-2001).]
 
I addressed you question on another board you posted it on, but I will reiterate what I think here. There is just no way you will make it through medical school, post-graduate training, and your career without having to miss church at some point. What do you do when your pager goes off during church and you have to go to the hospital for an emergency?

If you remain convinced that there are absolutely no exceptions to your obligation to be at church, you will have a difficult if not impossible time. If you like medicine, maybe you should consider something without call and with a more regular schedule. I echo the above posters' sentiments on this issue...medicine requires us to make sacrfices, and if you are not willing to do that you will have a difficult time. I find it interesting that you would be willing to miss church if you are sick, but not if one of your patients are sick. Sounds like you are free to miss church if the reason is important enough. I hope it works out for you...Good luck.

[This message has been edited by UHS03 (edited 03-17-2001).]
 
Well...first off, Madison. I appreciate your prayers and thoughts. However, I can't say I agree with some of your beliefs. For example, the legalistic thing. I would be described by a great many people as legalistic, but that word carries such a negative connotation. I believe that the New Testament is our new "law" (not exactly the best word for it). What it says is what I try to do. Nevertheless, I'm sure that through our future postings here we'll get along just fine and agree on a great deal of things.

UHSO3--I suppose you're talking about the IMC board. Anyway, the reason I would miss for my own sickness is because I couldn't physically be there. I do not miss for a cold or even severe flu. I would only miss for something like gastroenteritis or something else that is life-threatening. I have been told by a doctor that is a member of the Church of Christ (that's where I go to church) that it is possible to do and in fact, he did it. He said I would have to choose a residency program that had few emergencies and then it would be possible. Furthermore, the Vice President and Dean of my university's Medical School said that in general spiritual convictions and activities are never compromised by medical education, and conversely, a dedicated life never interferes with clinical training. But that's just in general...so we'll have to see. Like Madison, I greatly appreciate your response.

 
Just because you are not in a synagogue, hall, or other church building, that DOES NOT mean that you can not worhsip.
Can you only pray on your knees? NO
The scriptures reiterate over and over again to pray always, in your fields, closets, and in your hearts.

Final Point: Yes it is more reverant to worship in a church, but you can still worship in other ways and places.
 
Hi there
Well, this is an interesting debate. let me share a little bit with ya. as with the three basic monotheist religions, Islam is one that also keeps the regular prayers mandatory for its followers. these are five times a day prayers that every muslim has to perform to establish and maintain the link with God and submit to his command.there are no conditions when one can leave these prayers but Islam does make it practical and possible for its followers by allowing them to say the prayers any where they are,in any body posture if standing and bending are not possible due to physical illness, and one can even shorten the prayer if something unavoidable has come up. furthur relaxation is by dedicating a few to many hours of the day during which a prayer can be performed if you are not ready right at its call time.lastly if you are in the middle of an emergency,and the time has passed for the specific prayer, one can combine it with a later prayer and it will be accepted. then there are a coupl of specific times in the year when all the missed prayers can be made up.so you see, it is much more easier to practice the fundamentals of Islam.
I hope you got my point.
best wishes
sara


<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by Firebird:
Well...first off, Madison. I appreciate your prayers and thoughts. However, I can't say I agree with some of your beliefs. For example, the legalistic thing. I would be described by a great many people as legalistic, but that word carries such a negative connotation. I believe that the New Testament is our new "law" (not exactly the best word for it). What it says is what I try to do. Nevertheless, I'm sure that through our future postings here we'll get along just fine and agree on a great deal of things.

UHSO3--I suppose you're talking about the IMC board. Anyway, the reason I would miss for my own sickness is because I couldn't physically be there. I do not miss for a cold or even severe flu. I would only miss for something like gastroenteritis or something else that is life-threatening. I have been told by a doctor that is a member of the Church of Christ (that's where I go to church) that it is possible to do and in fact, he did it. He said I would have to choose a residency program that had few emergencies and then it would be possible. Furthermore, the Vice President and Dean of my university's Medical School said that in general spiritual convictions and activities are never compromised by medical education, and conversely, a dedicated life never interferes with clinical training. But that's just in general...so we'll have to see. Like Madison, I greatly appreciate your response.


 
I don't know if this helps any, but most all hospitals have chapels in them somewhere. Could you just use the hospital chapel on the rare Sunday you would be required to be in the hospital?


------------------
Rob
4th year med student at MCV/VCU in Virginia. Matched to Pathology at MCV.
 
Thanks for your replies...

It seems like every time that I bring this question up, someone tries to persuade me to change my beliefs.

I believe that I must be in Church on Sunday morning...no if's and's or but's. That's what I believe, I've studied it, I understand what the Bible says about it...I am confident in this belief.

I appreciate the information about Islam, but...well...I don't think I could just up and change my whole religious system as I don't believe that Muhammed was a prophet of God.

The chapel idea is an original one. No one has mentioned it thus far. However, chapels are usually a Catholic thing, and I'm not Catholic. I believe I must be assembled with my brethren on the first day of the week to commune with them and with God.

I've been told I won't have too much of a problem getting through med school...the residency is the problem. I thought of this today:

Hospitals are always looking for a way to cut back on spending. If I offer to sacrifice 5 or 10 thousand dollars worth of my salary, maybe they would be willing to give me two hours off on Sunday morning to worship.

I think that would be a more than fair trade, don't you?
 
I understand that your belief is important to you. However, on a sunday, as a resident, you may be the only physician in the hospital responsible for the patients an your service. That means if you leave the hospital then you must find someone willing to replace you for those hours. Here and there usually isn't a problem, but to get someone to cover for you every sunday morning is a bit unreasonable.

There must be other physicians that belong to the same denomination as you whom you can ask for advice.

The chapel idea is a good one. Most hospital chapels are not catholic, they are usually non-denominational. Usually they have 2 or 3 services on sundays in the chapel to accomodate different denominations (in addition to catholic mass). You should explore this option further at your hospital.

Best of luck.
 
If I were you, I would call some residency directors and ask them if they've ever encountered this problem before and how they handled it. You could also contact some hospital HR departments, and/or local resident union groups. I also agree with tussy, there are probably some doctors in your church, if they don't have the answer, they can surely point you in the right direction.
 
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by tussy:


There must be other physicians that belong to the same denomination as you whom you can ask for advice.


I know of one (maybe two or three) physician within the entire conservative Church of Christ that went through med school and residency without missing Sunday services. I know of a few other doctors within our realm of fellowship, but some fell away from the church during their schooling--something that I will not allow myself to do.

I know that sounds self-righteous, but it is something that I have purposed in my heart. I feel anything else would not be acceptable to God.

Oh...and I have talked to a doctor before at a Church meeting. He suggested that I would have very little problem getting through med school, but the residency would be the difficult thing. He said I would more than likely have to choose a residency that has few emergencies in it (i.e. plastic surgery, psychiatry, etc.)

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">The chapel idea is a good one. Most hospital chapels are not catholic, they are usually non-denominational. Usually they have 2 or 3 services on sundays in the chapel to accomodate different denominations (in addition to catholic mass). You should explore this option further at your hospital.

This would work, but as far as I know there are no Churches of Christ that meet in a chapel...and I could not sacrifice my beliefs to attend another service.

Again, I know that sounds self-righteous, but, on the contrary, I say this in all humility.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by Lord God:
If I were you, I would call some residency directors and ask them if they've ever encountered this problem before and how they handled it. You could also contact some hospital HR departments, and/or local resident union groups.

That is an excellent idea. I was actually thinking about something similar this morning before I even checked this thread. I will try to do this soon.

 
Your choices of residency's with few emergencies won't work. Plastic Surgery residents are general surg interns first. Also, plastics work weekends and call just like the rest. Also, depending on how good a student you are you might not be able to get into plastics.
Psych. also on call just like the rest. There are psych emergencies and wards that are manned by the residents 24/7.
The only options I could think of not to have to work on Sunday may be Radiology or Pathology. And, even in Radiology you have to be an intern for a year. It might be possible to make it thorough path residency not missing church. But, you couldn't make it through your 3rd and 4th years of med school without missing at least a couple of Sundays. It just wouldn't be possible. During medicine rotations, surgery rotations esp. you will be on Q3 or Q4 which will include weekends.
Also, the chapel in my hospital is non-denominational.

------------------
Rob
4th year med student at MCV/VCU in Virginia. Matched to Pathology at MCV.
 
Firebird,

I think what this all comes down to is you realizing that your beliefs are not compatable with the responsible practice of medicine. What this means is that you have to make a decision. Either you compromise your beliefs and work the occasional Sunday as required, or you stay true to your beliefs and forgo medicine as a career choice.

I know that this isn't what you wanted to hear, but this is not a perfect world and this is the reality of the world we live in.

Good luck with whatever you decide.
 
I agree with tussy. I think you have to ask yourself a question. And that is, does the God you believe in care more about you showing your face in church every Sunday, or would He want you to pursue your dream of becoming a physician and therefore a healer.

If you honestly believe that God requires you to be there EVERY Sunday, than I would agree that a residency would be out of the question. I guess you have to think about your priorities, and what your God would want you to do...
 
Firebird,
Just as with working moms, you cannot be simultaneously be the best doctor and the most concientious Chrstian. I don't believe that anyone here is trying to say that you are wrong or a bad person, but the fact of the matter is....you WILL have to make some very serious choices about your career and your religious life.

Just one thought, however: Why is it that you put so much emphasis on the NT (instead of the OT?) I suspect, if you have a Chrstian thinking even REMOTELY similar to mine, that it is because you believe Christ came to us "not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it". If you were truly called to be a physician, then you, too, are a fulfillment of the covenent initiated with the birth, death, and resurrection of Christ (sorry...i like that word better than "law"). This includes all of the things associated with that profession.

OK - one more thought (last one, I promise!)...you should probably read a bit more of the NT. I have read quite a bit of it and I can't seem to find the word "Sunday" mentioned in there at all. If it's the first day of the week you are concerned with, bear in mind that the fact that Sunday is the first day of the week is a human convention (just as are the schedules a resident must work!). Sunday might just as well be Thursday, for all we know. I would urge you to at least consider an alternative - if Sunday is not feasible, what about Saturday and/or Monday? My faith tells me God has more compassion and forgiveness than to deny entry into His kingdom someone who may have missed a Sunday worship in order to serve in the most noble of professions.

Please take no offense - I only wish to share some of my faith with you (perhaps then both of us can become better people). My thoughts and prayers are with you.

Peace,

Dave Shope
Boston, MA
 
Hi Firebird,

Do you belong to the International Churches of Christ? Perhaps your elders could help you out and set up a "house" church worship service (even if they use the hospital chapel facitlities). There may be other disciples working within the hospital, nurses, techs, clerks that may benefit from this, they would not have to miss services (as I know that some disciples do). I have been fortunate during my rotations to have the time to attend Sunday services, but I know that this may change so I will be looking at the residency programs closely to see how the program directors feel about this. I will also see if there are any disciples that I can network with and if the elders can help. Staying close to the Body is very important and so is your career so check out all avenues before throwing in the towel. If anyone out there knows this to be incorrect, feel free to correct me, but I heard that the Jewish residents at Maimonides in NY can arrange to take the Sabbath off and work every Sunday instead. Perhaps you may be able to work that out with another resident. Good luck and read John 15:7-8.
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by tussy:
I understand that your belief is important to you. However, on a sunday, as a resident, you may be the only physician in the hospital responsible for the patients an your service. That means if you leave the hospital then you must find someone willing to replace you for those hours. Here and there usually isn't a problem, but to get someone to cover for you every sunday morning is a bit unreasonable.

I'll admit I stayed away from this topic like I do most sociopolitical ones - too much heat. But I had the same thought as Tussy did (great minds think alike, eh?
wink.gif
):

If you are in house or on call for your unit, you must find someone to cover for you while you are away. Let's suppose you were covering the ICU - a responsibility most IM and Surgical interns have and I was covering the floor that particular Sunday. You call me up and ask if I will cover the unit for you while you're at church.

"Sure", I say - because I'm a nice gal and want to help you out. After the 14th page from the unit I start thinking dark and very, very bad thoughts about you because I've got 20+ patients of my own to care for and I'm hitting my tolerance level with all your patients CTD and making my life miserable. So the next time you ask me to cover for you, I mumble something about, "can't...gotta go...err, maybe you could ask someone else?"

While this seems fanciful, trust me IT IS NOT. Simply review the literature on the feelings and attitudes about residents who get pregnant and need time off - it ain't often a pretty picture. Everyone supports you in your beliefs and wants you to be happy, and you might find that the hospital would be willing to cut your salary because you needed the time off.

But I honestly think it unreasonable to expect that your colleagues will cover for you every Sunday you are on, without some sort of compensation for themselves.

And while Plastics does have a relatively less stressful after hours call schedule, even if you choose to do the newer Integrated Programs, you will still go through several years of Gen Surg and it is NOT until you have FINISHED residency that the schedule becomes more flexible. If you are anywhere near a trauma center - guess who shares trauma, face and hand call with the Ortho and Gen Surgeons? Bingo! Plastic residents and faculty. Any rate, we could go on arguing about which field will afford you the time off on a weekend - but the fact is REGARDLESS of which residency you choose, you will have to find someone to cover for you (whether its reading scans, looking at slides, or operating on someone) on a regular basis and that WILL create problems for you - professional and socially - with the other residents.

I hope you find some resolution to this.
 
I understand this line of reasoning as a Christian. I want to point out some things that are in the Bible regarding this. Let me point out that this is pretty much solely for the people who have read this thread who profess a belief in Christ as I do. For all others, you might find it interesting.

Matthew 12:10-13, Luke 6:1-10, and Luke 14:1-6 all state that it is lawful to heal on the Sabbath. In these scriptures Christ heals on the Sabbath and the Pharisees use this to jump on him. Christ then relates the "ox in the ditch" analogy (who man who has an ox in a ditch on the sabbath won't go and get it out?) at one point. Specifically in Luke 6:9 it states, "Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing: Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? To save life, or to destroy it?"
As a resident (an md) you will have the opportunity to do great good. You may even have the opportunity in assisting to save a life. This is obviously NOT breaking the Sabbath according to the Bible.

This is not a question of if Christian beliefs interfere with being a good doctor. Being a devoutly religious Christian does not pre-empt one from being a good doctor. In fact, if one actually reads the scriptures and understands them, they will have little doubt that enabling people to live better lives or alleviating pain and suffering fits in perfect harmony with the message of Christianity. I hope this clears up your questions regarding working for the good of others on the Sabbath.
 
It is bible study time
smile.gif


No one is going to be able to quote scripture and change this guys mind. He just has to make the choice. Or somehow pre-arrange it with the med school and residency. Which is questionable.
 
Laurel,

Very true, very true. We all apparently forget sometimes that the answers really ARE all there - all of them!

The Bible is not like the US constitution - no amendments are needed. If you seek answers...look in the right places! If you believe in the same omnipotent God that I do, and if you believe that the Bible is His divinely inspired word, how can you think that He might have "left something out"?

I'm sure people much smarter than I am could go back and forth quoting the Bible, but my point is not to rely on any specific passage - only to remind everyone that the answers to our most perplexing dilemmas are often not very far away.
 
I must admit I am shocked by the number of people who have attempted to change your belief rather than address the question. Unfortunately I believe this is typical of the medical profession and I believe you will have difficulty finding a program that will honor your request. However, if you do find one, and there are programs out there that respect your religious freedom and practices (your religion doesn't sponsor a residency program does it?), even in these programs you will find that you have to constantly redefend your desire to have that time reserved.

We currently have a resident with 2 children, she arranged to not have to start any rotation until 9.00 am with the program director before she signed the contract, but on every rotation she has to redefend and fight for that right. She is quitting at the end of the year because she feels she was lied to.

Good luck.
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by Laurel:
Matthew 12:10-13, Luke 6:1-10, and Luke 14:1-6 all state that it is lawful to heal on the Sabbath...

...I hope this clears up your questions regarding working for the good of others on the Sabbath.

I'm afraid it doesn't. And here's why:

Maybe the most widespread misconception in today's entire religious community is the concept of "the sabbath".

The sabbath is not on Sunday. Check your Old Testament--The Sabbath begins on what we would consider to be Friday at sundown and is complete Saturday night at Sundown. Therefore, the Sabbath does not include Sunday at all. In fact, the commandment "Remember the Sabbath..." does not apply to Christians, as it was under the law of Moses, which Christ fullfilled by removing it and replacing it with the Law of Faith (the New Testament).

So healing on the Sabbath doesn't really apply here.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by GreatPumpkin:
...Or somehow pre-arrange it with the med school and residency. Which is questionable.

It's been done before--if I can find a way to do it, I will get it done as well. I want nothing more than to be a doctor (not including spiritual or marital goals).

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by MD-PGY1:
I must admit I am shocked by the number of people who have attempted to change your belief rather than address the question.

Me too. But that's alright...every little bit helps.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by MD-PGY1:

However, if you do find one, and there are programs out there that respect your religious freedom and practices (your religion doesn't sponsor a residency program does it?), even in these programs you will find that you have to constantly redefend your desire to have that time reserved.
Good luck.

First, no, the Church of Christ does not sponser a residency program. Secondly, I am prepared to make many sacrifices because of the inconveinence that I bring with me. Like I said, if it comes down to it, I'll give up a good hunk of my salary, even. Medicine is what I want to do; I'm ready to do it. The question is, is Medicine ready to accept me and my beliefs so that we can be compatible.

Oh, and by the way...Kimberli--thanks for covering the ICU for me! But seriously, thanks for posting here, even though you don't like these types of topics; you can obviously see that I'm not interested in picking a fight here--my concerns are genuine and I want this to work out for me.

I look forward to any more replies that I may receive!
 
What field are you applying for? I thinkthat if you are going for a relatively benign specialty with respect to hours required, you should be able to work out arrangements with both, the program director, and later with your colleagues. For example, if you covered for me on Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Year's, I'd take your Sunday calls on a 2 for 1 trade! I doubt it would be possible with Surgery, Ob or possibly a rough Medicine program. Look carefully at hte programs and inquire about this head of time. Good Luck!

Patrick, D.O., PGY1
 
2 for 1? As in 2 Sundays for 1 Holiday? Or 2 holidays for one Sunday?

Cause I'm only talking 2 hours here. I may have not made that plain enough in the beginning. I wouldn't need to be off all day Sunday...just from say, 10:15 AM to 12:15 PM.

As for a specialty, I have no idea. I mean, I'm just in undergrad right now trying to sort this all out before I make the decision to go into medicine or not. I suspect though, just from knowing my interests, I would enjoy family practice, emergency medicine, or some type of internal medicine.

 
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by Firebird:
Thanks for your replies...

It seems like every time that I bring this question up, someone tries to persuade me to change my beliefs.

I believe that I must be in Church on Sunday morning...no if's and's or but's. That's what I believe, I've studied it, I understand what the Bible says about it...I am confident in this belief.

I appreciate the information about Islam, but...well...I don't think I could just up and change my whole religious system as I don't believe that Muhammed was a prophet of God.

The chapel idea is an original one. No one has mentioned it thus far. However, chapels are usually a Catholic thing, and I'm not Catholic. I believe I must be assembled with my brethren on the first day of the week to commune with them and with God.

I've been told I won't have too much of a problem getting through med school...the residency is the problem. I thought of this today:

Hospitals are always looking for a way to cut back on spending. If I offer to sacrifice 5 or 10 thousand dollars worth of my salary, maybe they would be willing to give me two hours off on Sunday morning to worship.

I think that would be a more than fair trade, don't you?

Hi there
seems like you got offended. well, my intention was not at all to make you feel bad and neither i'm trying to convince you to change your beliefs without a reason. as far as your comments about my faith, all i have to say is that one choses to put faith in a religion when he/she has a thorough understanding of it. and that comes after one puts his beliefs to test. all my life, i've found answers to my questions in islam. i firmly believe that its a true religion last sent by God and uptil now whatever the modern science has discovered that not only supports islamic ideas but also confirms them to be true. if u wanna do some study on it before rejecting my statement, go to www.islam-guide.com
once again, i dont wanna say something that offends you rather i beleive in all the prophets that have been sent so far(including Adam,Moses,Jesus,Mohammad). last but not the least, i invite u to think logically and put your belief to test as i did mine.
best wishes and thanx
 
Sorry, I didn't mean to soudn offended, cause I wasn't.

Thanks for the website; I do however, have reason in my faith in Christianity. I stick to what I believe because I have reason to. To keep this thread on topic, I won't specifically mention my reasons, but if you want my reasoning, I'd be happy to share that information on a seperate thread or through email.

smile.gif
 
I understand your situation,Firebird.I too am CoC. I am not yet in the position where I have to sacrifice worship in lieu of my studies.Try to attend early morning worship,or evening worship if possible.But you have to understand-it is God who blessed you with the talent. I know several doctors who balanced both. I believe it may be a challenge for you, but I also believe it can be done.Do not become discouraged...best wishes!!!
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by Firebird:
Oh, and by the way...Kimberli--thanks for covering the ICU for me! But seriously, thanks for posting here, even though you don't like these types of topics; you can obviously see that I'm not interested in picking a fight here--my concerns are genuine and I want this to work out for me.

Sure...I'm a nice gal and like to help out my friends and co-workers!
wink.gif


You're right - I don't usually post or even read these kind of threads. But I frankly found this topic fascinating - one I'd never thought about before and have never seen asked before.

I cannot pretend to understand the level of your commitment to being in church every Sunday, but I admire someone who has such tenacious beliefs. I am sure you will find the situation during residency difficult to resolve but I wish you the best of luck. Please let us know if you happen to get any information from residency directors as I would be intruiged as to their take on this topic.

Best of luck to you.

 
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by 2badr:
I understand your situation,Firebird.I too am CoC.

I kinda laughed when you said 'CoC' because that's kinda a joke with us around here and my family...we call it the CoC too. I don't know...it sounds kinda...ghetto. I am curious--I'm not trying to start a debate or anything, but are you of the one cup communion persuasion, or multiple cups? Just curious.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by kimberlicox:
Sure...I'm a nice gal and like to help out my friends and co-workers!
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You're right - I don't usually post or even read these kind of threads. But I frankly found this topic fascinating - one I'd never thought about before and have never seen asked before.

I cannot pretend to understand the level of your commitment to being in church every Sunday, but I admire someone who has such tenacious beliefs. I am sure you will find the situation during residency difficult to resolve but I wish you the best of luck. Please let us know if you happen to get any information from residency directors as I would be intruiged as to their take on this topic.

Best of luck to you.


Your reply was very nice. I think this shows that you have your head on nice and straight. There are many people who don't understand this type of commitment; but it's really nothing more than sincere conviction--there's certainly nothing magical about it.

The difference is, most everyone else is irritated by something like this that they don't understand. Some might even say that I just don't want to work morning hours on the weekend. I am very appreciative of your curtosy and interest.

I'll be sure to let you know of any new information that I receive. I did get a message from someone in CA that said that their medical school allows, without question, their students to attend services. They had to go in before church or after church to do a little extra clinical work, but nothing major.
 
Different = frightening (to most people) --&gt;
misunderstanding, derision and anger


I hadn't thought about people thinking you just didn't want to get up early (that was always my excuse for trying to get out of Church services. I'm just like Homer Simpson in that respect! Well, that AND my big gut!
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). But I suppose many people do assume the worst about others motives. I really enjoy cooking, for example, and I was shocked to hear that some of my classmates thought I was "bribing" my way to a good grade if I brought treats to PBL or on the last day of a rotation - well, it obviously worked even though that wasn't my intention at all!
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I'm glad to hear that you've found some programs out there willing to work with you on this sensitive subject. And if you should ever end up at Penn State for residency, I will be glad to work a few hours for you on a Sunday provided you cover for me some afternoon when I want to leave early!

best wishes...
 
I know Im going to draw heat for this.

Firebird, are you sure your'e not in a cult? Do you do what you think the Bible says or what is prescribed to you by your leaders? The fact that you went so far to post your religious dillema on a website shows the stress you are under. As a former member of a religious fringe group, I can tell you there is no magic answer to your questions.

Is God so unyielding, so pitiless? Did Jesus suffer torment and death to bring completion to the Old Testament law, or to establish a newer, more rigid law? Was He not outraged at the religious Pharisees that heaped burden upon burden (i.e. religious laws) on the backs of the people, but they themselves did nothing to help? Controlling religous groups love power; they prescribe your daly life, they abolish your personal life, and dabble into your bank account.

I could say more, but this is not the appropriate forum. Firebird, step out of the boat and walk by faith, like Peter did.
 
Oh dear...where to begin...

A cult? Absolutely not! I don't even know where to begin explaining how unlike a cult my church is.

First of all, I submit that your more "main-stream" religions follow their leaders over the Bible moreso than does my church. We use the Bible as our only creed. Catholics have the Catechism; Baptists have the Articles of Faith. We, the church of Christ, have the Bible. That's it. That's all we follow.

Jesus died to establish a religious kingdom and system. As much as people hate to admit it, Jesus did establish a "law"; the New Testament refers to it as the Law of Faith. It is not as extensive as the old law, but it is just as inflexible; in other words, there is right and there is wrong--no gray area.

You talk about controlling groups--those who remove your personal life and strive to control it. Just like everything else, in the matter of our personal lives, we follow the Bible. No one attempts to control you. However, blatent and continuous sin (i.e. adultery) is not tolerated. Such is prescribed in I Cor. 5.

As far as our "bank accounts" are concerned, you'll find that we are less money-oriented than denominations. We take up a collection on Sunday mornings only; whereas, many other religious organizations take up a collection every time they meet and have more than one collection. One of the churches of Christ runs a TV program in KY. It is the only religious program with an evangelist on TV that does not ask for money at all. Additionally, all tracts or tapes requested from the program are free.

Lastly, I find it ironic that you suggest that I "step out of the boat...like Peter did." Note what happened in that story--Peter walked out on the ocean, lost faith, and began to sink. Faith is a big part of our lives; but Truth is just as important.
 
well
i emailed u a reply on the address shown in your profile. it was a few days back. i'm not sure if u read it? thought may be i should let u know in case u dont use that email.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by Firebird:
Sorry, I didn't mean to soudn offended, cause I wasn't.

Thanks for the website; I do however, have reason in my faith in Christianity. I stick to what I believe because I have reason to. To keep this thread on topic, I won't specifically mention my reasons, but if you want my reasoning, I'd be happy to share that information on a seperate thread or through email.

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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by sara:
well
i emailed u a reply on the address shown in your profile. it was a few days back. i'm not sure if u read it? thought may be i should let u know in case u dont use that email.



I have been really busy lately and I haven't had time to really read it. I'll try to get around to it at the end of the week (I've got a bio exam tomorrow and a chem exam Thursday and a trip on Friday). Sorry for my slowness, but I just haven't been up on email lately. But yes, I did receive it.
 
my wishes for your exams and everything

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by Firebird:

I have been really busy lately and I haven't had time to really read it. I'll try to get around to it at the end of the week (I've got a bio exam tomorrow and a chem exam Thursday and a trip on Friday). Sorry for my slowness, but I just haven't been up on email lately. But yes, I did receive it.

 
Well, I must admit, Firebird, that I am a bit perplexed here. I thought your dilemma was with working on the Sabbath (whatever the day of the week you may consider that) and I posted the scriptures that quoted Christ saying it was lawful to heal on the Sabbath and do good. I guess I am a bit confused then as to how your faith interprets those scriptures (including the analogy that Christ himself related regarding the ox in the ditch). Perhaps you could explain to me as to how they are irrelevent? You see, your response to this was that the Sabbath was on Saturday in the Bible, so I guess I didn't catch the reason as to why these scriptures didn't deal with the issue of healing on the Sabbath.
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The sabbath was under the Law of Moses. We are now under the law of Christ, the Law of Faith, the New Testament, the New Covenant...whatever you want to call it.

The New Testament calls for the assembling of the saints on the first day of the week. In our culture, that would be on Sunday. Therefore to be obedient, we assemble on Sunday. When Christ died, the Old Law died with Him--therefore the Sabbath is no longer a part of worship to God.

We now assemble on the first day of the week. We learn this through example (which, by the way, is one of three ways that we know God's commands).

The Bible says that Christians are to "assemble on the first day of the week." It also says, "not forsaking the assembling of yourselves together, as the manner of some is."

Therefore, we can't forsake the assembly. That's why I would not be able to work on Sunday morning.
 
Thank you for explaining your statement on the Sabbath and your beliefs to me. I now understand much better what you were saying. You are basically saying that Christ's statement as to healing and doing good on the Sabbath is irrelevent today because the Sabbath no longer exists. Is that correct? That is interesting indeed! Since, in my faith we also believe in meeting together, but we call the day that we meet together the "Sabbath". I understand that the law of Moses was fulfilled in Christ, but does that make the entire ten commandments (murder, adultery, keeping the Sabbath day holy) irrelevent? I am truly curious as to the logic behind this. I was under the impression that the Sabbath day referred to a day set apart once a week (whatever day that may be) to be observed as a day of special and particular devotion to the service of the Lord (a pattern of which was established in Genesis "And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." )
I was also under the impression that the "Sabbath" was still in effect from the statements made by Christ:
"The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath. The Son of Man is Lord also of the sabbath." (Mark 2:27,28)
In our faith we believe that Christ came not to destroy the law of Moses but to fulfill it; and through Him the law was superseded by the Gospel. The Savior rose from the tomb on the first day of the week; and that particular Sunday, as also the next, was rendered forever memorable by the bodily visitation of the resurrected Lord to the assembled apostles and others. To the believers in the crucified and risen Savior, Sunday became the Lord's Day (see Rev 1:10), and in time took the place of Saturday as the weekly Sabbath in the Christian churches.

Which I guess the point I make above is that I thought the Sabbath was still in effect (as the Lord's day) according to the New Testament. So, I see my point as relevent. Because if the Sabbath is still in effect, due to when Christ was resurrected and arose the Sabbath then became known as the "Lord's day" (also see 1 Cor. 16:2, Acts 18:4, 17:2, 20:7 ), then what the Lord has said in the New Testament regarding the Sabbath day (his day) is relevent. And what the Lord has said regarding his day is largely the body of my original post (ie that it is good to heal and save lives on the Sabbath - the Lord's day).

I do, however, understand now that the problem you face is not necessarily with healing on the Sabbath - you seem to see that as fine - particularly since I am reading your statements to mean that you don't really believe in a Sabbath. I see that your problem is simply trying to find a small bit of time on the day of the week you worship to go and worship. I guess the next part of my problem in understanding this situation now lies in finding the scriptures you alluded to in your previous post:

"The Bible says that Christians are to "assemble on the first day of the week." It also says, "not forsaking the assembling of yourselves together, as the manner of some is."

I am afraid I have searched in vain for scriptures containing these texts. I think that if I could read them in their entirety I might better comprehend where you are coming from on this. (And possibly be able to offer you better advice).

Thank goodness this thread regarding religion and its impact on medicine is staying nice and civil!
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ACtually, the Bible refers to The Lord's Day and the Sabbath as two different days...but you have to go back to the original Greek to totally see this.

For example, in I Cor. 16, we find Paul instructing Corinth to take up a collection on the first day of the week. In the original letter, though, Paul never wrote "first day of the week". He wrote kata sabbaton. Kata means "every" and sabbaton means "the first day after the Sabbath". So what Paul writes is 'take up a collection every first day after the sabbath."

However, it was translated, "the first day of the week." This was done because it is known that the Sabbath was the last day of the week and the Christian meeting day was the first day of the week. So here, we see Paul differentiating between the Sabbath and the first day of the week.

As for the passages you were looking for...

Acts 20:7 says "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread..." This passage is referring to the communion; therefore the disciples came together on Sunday to take communion.

Therefore we, by example, are taught that we should come together on the Sabbath, as well.

Heb 10:25 say, "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is..."

So we are told not to forsake the assembly.

There ya have it! I'll be looking forward to your reply!
 
This is very interesting to me.
I get heat from my dad all the time about missing church on some Sunday's because I am suppose to be in God's House, even when there is an exam the next day.

This is how I see it. I feel as I am somewhat 'called' to be a physician. I KNOW that I am in medical school because this is where God wants me to be. In that manner, I have to do what it takes to succeed in school, and that may and will mean missing church on some Sundays.

Now, I dont want to sound harsh with this next statement, but if you can only "feel, find, or obey" God by being in church every Sunday, then there is something missing. I do not need church to pray nor do I need the preacher to pull out my Bible and have devotion with Him. Do you see what I am getting at? We are all sinners, and cannot be perfect. You can only do your best. If you truely feel as if God has called you to be a physician, than OBEY HIM!

The only other advice I can give you is to pray about the matter. Are you willing to give up your dreams, and maybe even the path that God wants you to go down just so you can be in church every Sunday and feel as if you are doing the right thing?

Good Luck,
Pegasus
 
This "calling" theory has been alluded to by several people. I, however, can not find anywhere in the scriptures where it says that God may "call" someone to a certain profession. With its scriptural absence, I can not subscribe to such a belief. How do you know that God has "called" you to be a physician?

Also, I will address another doctrinal point that you made. You said "we are all sinners...". This idea has pervaded modern religion and is problematic (like you said, I'm not trying to be mean--I'm just pointing out some things).

Once a person becomes a Christian, then he/she is no longer a sinner. To be a Christian, is to be "called" out of sin (this is the only reference to "calling" I know of, and it alludes to nothing but our spirituality). Once we begin living for Christ, our life is to be free from sin.

Now, I understand that we may slip up from time to time, but overall, we are to live without sin.

Romans 6: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that Grace may abound? God forbid! How shall we, who are dead to sin, continue therein?

In other words, once we are obedient to God's Will, and in doing so receive His Grace, we should not continue to live in sin.

Lastly, I will make one more point. The reason I go to church is not so that I can pray; it's not so I can hear the preacher; it's not so my church will accept me; it's because that's what God wants...it's what he asks for in the Bible. I do it in obedience.
 
Fascinating thread... I guess my suggestions really just echo what other people on here have said. First off, you need to seriously consider the field of medicine you want to enter. Honestly, most of the areas you have mentioned, EM, internal medicine, surgery, all would be very difficult to balance with your religious devotion. I think you would find it very difficult in any of these residencies to find fellow residents who would be willing to cross-cover for you. Not to mention, I would imagine that this practice on a weekly basis probably wouldn't go over that well with many of the attendings either. Specialties where you might get away with this more easily -- radiology, derm, ophto, pathology all come to mind. As far as the salary idea, that doesn't really sound like a good idea, or make that much sense, because the hospital still has to come up with someone to cross-cover your two hours each Sunday when you're not in the hospital. Instead, you should probably be looking at some of the less demanding fields of medicine time-wise, and when you get to the residency stage, make really, really good friends with your fellow residents -- offer to cross-cover them for maybe three hours that Sunday afternoon or evening, if they will cross-cover in the morning, or some other suitable arrangement.

I'm sure you must realize that at some point in this decision-making compromise will be necessary. Since you do not feel that you can compromise any part of religious beliefs (I'm not attacking you or trying to change your mind here, just stating what I see as fact), then you should at least be prepared to compromise when deciding on what area of medicine to enter into.
 
Firebird,

This is becoming a little futile, dont you think? Figure this out without condradicting the advice that you ask for. I hope things work out for you.

[This message has been edited by adismo (edited April 10, 2001).]
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by adismo:
Firebird,

This is becoming a little futile, dont you think? Figure this out without condradicting the advice that you ask for. I hope things work out for you.

[This message has been edited by adismo (edited April 10, 2001).]

I'm really sorry...I didn't mean to seem like I was contradicting everyone's advice. It's just that I'm explaining why I'm in the situation I'm in...if I could just go to chapel, there'd be no problem.

However, I was hoping that I might find some info from someone in a similar situation or that has heard of something similar. Or I was hoping that someone might have some suggestions on how to get residency directors to work with my situation.

So, again...I wasn't trying to contradict what people were telling me--I was just explaining why some ideas, although seemingly a cure-all, weren't really solutions.

 
I've been thinking about Radiology as a specialty. It was suggested that this would be a good residency to take as it's less of a time committment. I hope I don't sound stupid, but I am not sure what a radiologist does, other than interpreting films. How much patient interaction?

Thanks!
 
Firebird,
Well radiologists have many jobs. Of course they do the plain films, but also ultrasound, CT, MRI, GI studies, swallowing studies, flouroscopy, and all sorts of cutting edge interventional proceedures.

Patient interaction is much less and much diff. than medicine. You are only with the patients for short periods of time if at all. (exp. for interventional). Usually the radiology techs are the ones who really are with the patients. But, you do interact with all the doctors and you get to teach alot.

It would be easier for you to get through residency without doing Sunday mornings in Radiology than say surgery or IM. Except, for your internship year and you will still be on-call in hospital in a residency program. In my school there is always 2 radiology residents in hospital overnight and weekends.

As another word of caution, Radiology has become super competitive. If that is your plan. You must make sure that you have the grades and USMLE scores, and such.
 
This is a very interesting thread. Being raised Jewish, I was always fascinated by Christians needing to resolve differences between two books that they believe in (the Old AND New books)... because it would be impossible to believe every word of the "bible" since it will contradict itself between editions (ie the sabbath, as i learned in this forum)...

I don't think it will be utterly impossible to make it happen. It will be challenging, but it seems as though you're motivated to make it work. You can most certainly do emergency medicine, for example, which is simply shift-work without beeper... and every time you draw that shift, switch with someone who has the saturday night shift. I'm sure they'll appreciate it!

Doing a different specialty, like Peds or Med, will leave your patients in a lurch between 10.30 and 12 on sunday... which a good Christian, I'm sure, wouldn't want to do.

But if you're reconsidering going into medicine because of this scheduling conflict, PLEASE DON'T. You will be able to work it out somehow. Worry about the MCAT, worry about the AMCAS, worry about world hunger, but don't worry about your work schedule six years from now. It'll work out.

Good luck!

 
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