In Harvard's Defense

[Original]

All I have heard about Harvard seems to be negative. Things such as how they rely too much on their reputation; how they are full of arrogance; how the school its very impersonal and doesn't care about individuals; how yada yada ya... I was just wandering whether anyone would like to enlighten us with its positive aspects and maybe counter some of the negative allegations. I am hoping for an interview at the place and wouldn't want to go in there with a negative attitude.

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[moo]

I too am awaiting for Harvard, and I don't want to go in there with this negative feeling about the place. Surprisingly, not too many students from Harvard peruse the forums (not that I'm aware of anyway).

Sorry, i have to respond to your "signature" on Russel's Paradox: The set S is not a set! A naive view of sets can be risky. Trust no one, the truth is out there.

 

[Original]

I'm still searching for the truth. But nice! it seems you've messed with some set theory as well.

 

[Trek]

I think most people are gonna say that, in part at least because they didn't get in. Now i'm unbiased, I don't care about the place, or apply, so my opinion is neutral. That said, the kid i knew from my school that ended up there was cool. Smart as HELL, but still cool. They get to look for certain 'types' out there, which is part of why they're looked on as snobbish. Most people think leadership is a college club or two, out there the 'leaders' have led at the national level in high profile organizations, not just the Middle Tennessee chapter of AMSA. One last thing- people are always moaning about 'what does being a champion rock climber have to do with med admissions?' (i am too, since i'm not anything special). However, ya gotta realize that all their gold medalists not only have a gold medal, but also got a 37 on the 'CATs and have 3.8s. They're excellent academically, but they have that extra something that speaks to their dedication and character that many of us are missing. So don't hate- the soap opera star (hypothetically) probably has a higher mcat and gpa than everyone else, he just happens to be a star too...if you get what i'm trying to get at. --Trek

 

[E'01]

Coming from the Harvard postbac and with an ex-boyfriend who is currently in the MD/PhD program, I got to meet and become friends with quite a few Harvard med students. I also went to a Social Medicine class and even an anatomy lab (of course with permission from the instructor first). I was expecting to just stand in a corner and observe, but the students I was in a group with, said, grab some gloves and come over and help! They had me removing some of the fascia of the leg and was pointing out the veins, arteries and other structures to me and explaining their importance. It was an amazing experience. There were times when I would study in the dorm (Vanderbuilt) and end up talking to the students. I remember asking them about how did they study for the MCAT and how to succeed in classes like Orgo - and they were just really informative and encouraging. I went to a couple of social events (the 2nd year show and a formal) also and met other students there also. Overall I found the student body to be unpretentious, warm, friendly, modest, and engaging individuals who always made me feel at ease and comfortable about my little ole pre-med/postbac status. The school itself is great and the grounds in front of the classrooms are gorgeous. Some of the students had cool backgrounds but they were humble about them. Of coure I didn't ask anyone about their stats, but assumed they had done well academically. The only person I knew about was my ex who had URM status, got a 38 MCAT, 3.9 GPA, and graduated summa cum laude in physics engineering from Cornell.

 

[coop]

while i haven't been overtly negative about harvard on this forum, I certainly haven't gotten a good impression from anyone at the school. I've heard poor reviews of their curriculum from former jhu ugrads who went there (thru my preprof office). My only more personal knowledge was a guy who was a really chill and noncompetetive (and super bright) guy from my summer lab at ucla, who went there and has turned into that stereotyped harvard-is-the-center-of-the-world attitude. I asked him what the bests things about harvard was, why I should want to go there, he said a little about the pros and cons of the curriculum and then he said, (this is a quote from an email) "But to be honest with you, all that stuff doesn't really matter because
definitely the best thing about coming to Harvard is just the mere fact that it is the Big H. When finding a Residency (which is where you'll really
learn to be a good doctor- which is ironic because by this time you'll already have your medical degree), just the fact that you graduated from Harvard, opens many residency doors."

While i certainly don't want to go to a school that will close residency doors to me, it is clearly fact that there are many (some would argue all) schools that can lead you to great matches, and just that line about "Big H" really got me. I know, this is just one guy, but he was really not the kind of guy to say these things before, I blame the change squarely on harvard, and i think one thing unique to harvard (or ALMOST unique) is this attitude of we're the best, we know it, lalala. Anyways, i get the same feeling from my interaction with many/most harvard undergrads and I think it's just this attitude that pervades the university. I'm not bitter as above people have suggested, I applied to harvard but would not go to an interview if i get one, i'm too happy with the other places I've gotten into, and it's not worth the money just to have the chance to say i turned harvard down. Best of luck to those of you hoping to hear from harvard.

 

[Hopkins2010]

I have also heard a lot of negative things about Harvard, but I think its easier to take shots at Harvard because they are supposedly on this pedastal above everyeone else.

Some of this is due to arrogance, but I think that most of it has nothing to do with the people that actually go to school there.

I always viewed Harvard as this elusive goal just out of reach no matter how hard one tries to obtain it. Sort of like the Great Gatsby or something like that.

 

[Incendiary]

Regardless of your opinion on the students' arrogance, there is no question that people put Harvard (and Hopkins) on a higher level than the rest of the medical schools. This fellow who claimed that the simple fact of being at Harvard will open doors was not boasting but speaking the truth. View it as unfortunate, elitist, or undeserved, but it is true. Reputations are sometimes well-deserved, sometimes not, so the advice I'd give is to go for your interview if/when you get it and judge the school for yourself. Don't just form opinions based on hearsay.

On a different note, Harvard just put the beatdown on the Elis to go 9-0. Go Crimson!

 

[Original]

Wow! your responses are really eye opening. I've heard alot of people say that they told their Harvard interviewers to their faces, to go do the nastie to themselves. In any case, I never pictured myself as someone who could tell an interviewer to go f... themselves; but then something happened that really scared me. I go to a big state school and I'm always the only such person at all my interviews. Anyway, at Pritzker, some of the senior MSTPs were coming off as elitist at dinner. I reacted by getting quite sarcastic, loud, and even confrontational (though I didn't go near as far as telling anyone to go F themselves). By dinner's end I was quite remorseful and I promised myself that I wouldn't repeat such action regardless of circumstance.

 

[sar520]

i find it really hard to believe that there are doors harvard keeps open that are closed to people who for some sad reason do not end up harvard but at wash u, duke, or ucsf . . .

not that i'm knocking harvard. i have actually heard really good things about their program. i just think there are a LOT of great schools where basically all doors are open, not just hopkins and harvard!

-s

 

[Original]

True dat!

 

[Incendiary]

sar520, of course you're right. People can get into great residencies and get hired to do research at wonderful institutions coming from pretty much anywhere. All I'm saying is that it'll be substantially easier to do if you attend certain schools than if you attend other schools.

It's analogous to applying to medical schools from college. It's possible to get into great programs coming from any educational background, ranging from having 9 F's to having all A's. Regardless, you're going to have an easier time getting accepted if you went to a college well known for having a strong academic reputation than if you went to Uncle Homer's Klown Kollege. Note that I'm not saying that UCSF and Duke, etc. are like the medical school version of the aforementioned Kollege, but I think you get my point.

 

[jmejia1]

URM status with a 38 MCAT and a 3.9GPA from Cornell in physics engineering should tell you how selective big H is. I think many people have negative impressions or bad things to say about Harvard because they know that Harvard has its doors closed to them with very thick padlocks. It's an elitist school and such it picks the elite of the elite. The fact of the matter is that 99.5% of us don't meet thier standards.

 

[skelly99]

I think that there are a couple different things coming up here.

First, I think that we should remember that the admissions office isn't always the best reflector of what is going on at a school. Having worked in admissions at the undergrad level, you usually only catch wind of the huge things that are going on at the school and not necessarily the day to day goings on. The faculty, students, and other staff are the ones to go to for real information. So, the admissions office might even be doing the school a disservice in some cases by coming across as pretentious during interviews.

In addition, I think that for Harvard -- or any other school -- there are people that will do well and those that will not; those that will enjoy going to the school and those that will not. Just as it isn't appropriate to make blanket statements about a school, it also isn't fair to assume that just because a school is well-known, well-funded, or well-ranked, that everyone will want to go there.

My experience with Harvard (at least on the undergrad level) was a negative one and I decided not to apply. For me, it was a good decision. However, I have also taken classes there and enjoyed them -- while still appreciating the fact that I decided to go elsewhere. It's a personal decision, and you can't assume that everyone will or will not want to go somewhere based on reputation alone.

That being said, this argument can be made for pretty much any school, I think. Don't just single out Harvard because of its rankings...

My 2 cents.

Cheers.

 

[choker]

according to one of my old advisors who is a dept chairman at Columbia P&S, harvard is the only school that can get away with a PBL curriculum, because they are the only school with enough faculty resources to do so. if you liked cornell's curriculum, you'll love harvard's. i think it's entirely problem-based. you get the books and teach yourself with the school's resources. if you are one of those who cuts class a lot and teaches yourself from notes and books the night before a test, this system is for you. also, it's relatively stress-free (P/F), dunno if they have honors. also, best part of the school is that you're among the best of the best. everyone around you is full of accomplishment, adding to a generally rich and diverse quality of life.

 

[BlackPuma]

Originally posted by Original:
•Wow! your responses are really eye opening. I've heard alot of people say that they told their Harvard interviewers to their faces, to go do the nastie to themselves. In any case, I never pictured myself as someone who could tell an interviewer to go f... themselves; but then something happened that really scared me. I go to a big state school and I'm always the only such person at all my interviews. Anyway, at Pritzker, some of the senior MSTPs were coming off as elitist at dinner. I reacted by getting quite sarcastic, loud, and even confrontational (though I didn't go near as far as telling anyone to go F themselves). By dinner's end I was quite remorseful and I promised myself that I wouldn't repeat such action regardless of circumstance.•••


umm lemme guess they didn't end up sending you an acceptance did they?

 

[Aoshi]

Can't speak for their medical school, but I lost all respect for Harvard when I found out that 91% of their students graduate with honors and that the selection criteria for getting honors is a B- average...considering that they curve to a B+, that's a pretty pathetic statistic. And of course, bogus rankings like US News love to see graduation rates...with a graduation rate of 98% (and 91% of them considered "honors") how could Harvard NOT be considered an "elite school". Please excuse me for a second...need a tissue to wipe away all the sarcasm dripping from my mouth.
Of course, I can't say the same applies to their medical school, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were riding mostly on their undeserved reputation.

 

[coop]

just to respond a little to what Incendiary said:
my point was not that I don't think harvard would open more doors to residencies than a lower tier school, it's just that harvard does not open some special door that cannot be opened at a good handful (10-15) other great institutions. Excellence in the medical field in america is quite diffuse. Compare our current state to the first half of the 20th century, when Hopkins basically ruled american medicine. Now there are a lot of top institutions leading the world clinically and scientifically. My negative reaction is towards those who refuse that point, which leads to elitism.

Some of the above posters are propagating this problem, by continuing to rub harvard med students egos. Friend of mine, md/phd student in my lab, interviewed at harvard, and stayed at a host who said "i like to go to bars and say i'm at harvard med just to see how many chicks i can pick up." My friend kind of laughed it off, thinking he was joking, but not only was he not joking, but guess what they did that nite? you guessed it. And... i guess not so suprisingly, he left the place with a pockeful of phone numbers. My friend said he played along, so as not to offend anyone the nite before his interview, but he was flabberghasted(sp). Anyways, he hated that elitism, so he didn't go to harvard. At which point i thought, wow! if it's substantially more elitist than hopkins, thats really saying something.

Anyways, i guess its just a collection of these type stories i have about the school from those there, and those who got in and turned it down. I know going to harvard med will impress all your friends and make your parents oh so proud, and everyone can introduce you as "harvard educated so and so." I don't want to come of as judging those who do want to go to harvard for the above or other reasons, it's just a clash with my personality... you could say I should suspend judgement till after an interview, which is true, but ensuring that noone will ever introduce me as "harvard educated coop" is enough for me.

 

[Original]

Originally posted by WatchaMaCallit:
•


umm lemme guess they didn't end up sending you an acceptance did they? •••

Actually the director told me that I'm in. He'll give me an official call in January and wants to know the odds that I'll attend. It feels good.

 

[Incendiary]

Aoshi, you sound like you were rejected. No, I'm kidding of course. You probably didn't apply because Harvard is so beneath you.

coop, people who have confidence in and pride for themselves solely based on either being or not being affiliated with Harvard have issues.

Original, wanna give das director a call and ensure my acceptance? Twould be much appreciated.

 

[jargon124]

I don't see what the point of this discussion is. We all KNOW Harvard is a great school, one of the very best. Whether or not it is THE best is up for discussion, but that's not the point. I think that people who badmouth Harvard need to chill out and get over themselves.

I applied there because I think it will be fun to give it a shot. Even though I have reasonably good stats, I don't expect to get an interview, much less get accepted. Yet all I have to lose is a bit of pride and 105 dollars in app fees - so what the hell - life is short - at least when I'm 40 I won't have to wonder if I could have gotten into Harvard or not!

 

[Incendiary]

I am more than willing to admit that Harvard is not perfect. In fact, one complaint I've heard is that the admissions committees are sometimes more interested in stats than anything else.

That said, jargon124, if you have "reasonably good stats," then you have a "reasonably good chance" of getting an interview, IMHO. Best of luck to you.

 

[Weeble]

In some ways Harvard is a lot like anywhere else, as far as people goes: you got your decent folk, your boring folk, your jerks, your raging @ssholes and probably more than your fair share of smart and/or socially inept kids.

What Harvard, as an institution, does tend to breed is a real need to feel like "the best." In something, anything. Sadly, the way this often plays out is that Harvard doesn't try to be "the best" by adding greatly to the good of the world (although this can sometimes be a byproduct of their efforts), but simply by trying to maintain this status as "the best, unassailably."

And I'm going to stop now, cuz I'm starting to bum myself out!