In regards to recent NYC resident suicides and a warning to medical students...

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FormerResMD

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My residency director is a psychopath. I do not use the term to be impolite or spiteful, although I do not care for this person at all. I intend to use an exact psychiatric term to describe him, in order to understand his actions. His behavior is fixed, stereotypical and predictable in its nature, which indicates a personality disorder. It involves predation on persons in medical training over whom he has power; this suggests a cluster B personality disorder, psychopathy. Other physician observers have concurred.

After the first year of residency, I found an opening at another residency, and asked for transfer. He refused to send the appropriate documentation to the other residency and stated that he would follow any movement I made for postgraduate training with a horrible warning to any other program. Pleased, he then set out abusing me for the rest of the residency. My complaints to senior administration were simply handed back to him. I felt like he would be pleased if I would just do the program a favor and die.

I would recommend the medical community look critically at the history of resident suicides in the Internal Medicine program at X. Actually, I got off lightly, being a male. This church Minister and man of God used to troll the pictures of the female medical students to select them for his Internal Medicine rotation. The most desirable one or two would be selected to go away with him to a conference. And if she didn’t put out, she wouldn’t get a good rating. He told one of the female residents, “Your ass is too fat. Your husband will stop ****ing you and get someone else.” He used to demand the female residents take his scrutiny during his supervision – even the ones who didn’t put out. He corrupted the entire residency process. I am certain that he wished me to suicide during residency. It’s a way of getting rid of undesirable residents. What happened to him after ten years of being Residency Director in X? He went to an Ivy League medical school as Dean of Education and Training residency. Talk about the perp shuffle.

Most bullies are just jerks. Many are sexual harassers. Some are psychopaths, predators, as sick as Ted Bundy. Their crimes should be detailed, and law enforcement should be shown that they do. I expect that a rash of suicides, especially by females, might be a fingerprint of a perpetrator.

Robert Hare’s Snakes in Suits offers an insightful perspective into high-functioning psychopaths. It’s a must read, unfortunately, for first-year students and residents.

Directorship of residencies is a psychopath’s playground. The method of operation for the predatory psychopath is to control, isolate, belittle and destroy one’s personal values and guide-map to identity and worth. Students of psychopathy such as Hervey Cleckley and Robert Hare show how well the high-functioning clinical psychopath can hide in the waters of organizations, especially those with rigid control. Studies of criminal psychopathy show that 25% of male inmates in prisons are psychopaths.

But not all psychopaths are low-functioning. I wonder how that 25% compares to medical school and residency training individuals. Psychopathy, like narcissism, is associated with extraversion and positive affect. The so-called core personality traits of psychopathy, may even be beneficial for the psychopath (in terms of nondeviant social functioning). You can see why residency programs fit like a glove for the psychopathic doctor.

A psychopathic residency director would see resident suicides as acceptable. They are merely the training process taking its course, filtering out the unwanted and less capable from the class. Too many suicides lead to bad press, though.

Not every residency director, thank God, is a psychopath. But too many are. What I find incomprehensible is why the normal social function of neutralizing and walling off psychopaths does not work in medical training. The more inhumane systems are, the more they select for those with extroverts and enthusiastic persons with shallow affect, superficial charm, manipulativeness, lack of empathy, the more they catch these people with severe personality disorder up into the medical training process.

I cherish what I do as a healer. It is a vocation. I am really happy being a doctor – now that I’ve gotten away from the mechanical system of training doctors that often hides the human pus like Dr. Z. It needs to be drained. It is wrong and inhuman. And if an organization is inhuman, then human beings cannot flourish there.

Why residents are taking their lives so frequently at these specific institutions need to be looked into and as a warning to MS4s who have the fortunate opportunity to choose which program you enter, be warry of the superiors. Make sure you know why you're getting into before it's too late. Garner information from current residents about their experiences with the program.

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you need some lithium bro?
 
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While it's against ToS to name the person directly on the forums, it isn't against ToS to document where this person 1) worked as a PD and 2) has become a Dean. I only mention this because you said 'PD at X' when you could've just said the name of the hospital.
 
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My residency director is a psychopath. I do not use the term to be impolite or spiteful, although I do not care for this person at all. I intend to use an exact psychiatric term to describe him, in order to understand his actions. His behavior is fixed, stereotypical and predictable in its nature, which indicates a personality disorder. It involves predation on persons in medical training over whom he has power; this suggests a cluster B personality disorder, psychopathy. Other physician observers have concurred.

After the first year of residency, I found an opening at another residency, and asked for transfer. He refused to send the appropriate documentation to the other residency and stated that he would follow any movement I made for postgraduate training with a horrible warning to any other program. Pleased, he then set out abusing me for the rest of the residency. My complaints to senior administration were simply handed back to him. I felt like he would be pleased if I would just do the program a favor and die.

I would recommend the medical community look critically at the history of resident suicides in the Internal Medicine program at X. Actually, I got off lightly, being a male. This church Minister and man of God used to troll the pictures of the female medical students to select them for his Internal Medicine rotation. The most desirable one or two would be selected to go away with him to a conference. And if she didn’t put out, she wouldn’t get a good rating. He told one of the female residents, “Your ass is too fat. Your husband will stop ****ing you and get someone else.” He used to demand the female residents take his scrutiny during his supervision – even the ones who didn’t put out. He corrupted the entire residency process. I am certain that he wished me to suicide during residency. It’s a way of getting rid of undesirable residents. What happened to him after ten years of being Residency Director in X? He went to an Ivy League medical school as Dean of Education and Training residency. Talk about the perp shuffle.

Most bullies are just jerks. Many are sexual harassers. Some are psychopaths, predators, as sick as Ted Bundy. Their crimes should be detailed, and law enforcement should be shown that they do. I expect that a rash of suicides, especially by females, might be a fingerprint of a perpetrator.

Robert Hare’s Snakes in Suits offers an insightful perspective into high-functioning psychopaths. It’s a must read, unfortunately, for first-year students and residents.

Directorship of residencies is a psychopath’s playground. The method of operation for the predatory psychopath is to control, isolate, belittle and destroy one’s personal values and guide-map to identity and worth. Students of psychopathy such as Hervey Cleckley and Robert Hare show how well the high-functioning clinical psychopath can hide in the waters of organizations, especially those with rigid control. Studies of criminal psychopathy show that 25% of male inmates in prisons are psychopaths.

But not all psychopaths are low-functioning. I wonder how that 25% compares to medical school and residency training individuals. Psychopathy, like narcissism, is associated with extraversion and positive affect. The so-called core personality traits of psychopathy, may even be beneficial for the psychopath (in terms of nondeviant social functioning). You can see why residency programs fit like a glove for the psychopathic doctor.

A psychopathic residency director would see resident suicides as acceptable. They are merely the training process taking its course, filtering out the unwanted and less capable from the class. Too many suicides lead to bad press, though.

Not every residency director, thank God, is a psychopath. But too many are. What I find incomprehensible is why the normal social function of neutralizing and walling off psychopaths does not work in medical training. The more inhumane systems are, the more they select for those with extroverts and enthusiastic persons with shallow affect, superficial charm, manipulativeness, lack of empathy, the more they catch these people with severe personality disorder up into the medical training process.

I cherish what I do as a healer. It is a vocation. I am really happy being a doctor – now that I’ve gotten away from the mechanical system of training doctors that often hides the human pus like Dr. Z. It needs to be drained. It is wrong and inhuman. And if an organization is inhuman, then human beings cannot flourish there.

Why residents are taking their lives so frequently at these specific institutions need to be looked into and as a warning to MS4s who have the fortunate opportunity to choose which program you enter, be warry of the superiors. Make sure you know why you're getting into before it's too late. Garner information from current residents about their experiences with the program.

After the first year of residency, I found an opening at another residency, and asked for transfer. He refused to send the appropriate documentation to the other residency and stated that he would follow any movement I made for postgraduate training with a horrible warning to any other program.
as has been said not just by you or I on this forum, administrators hurting residents by not doing paperwork you would think they are required to do, and badmouthing, is a very real strategy and it can have success

Most bullies are just jerks. Many are sexual harassers. Some are psychopaths, predators, as sick as Ted Bundy. Their crimes should be detailed, and law enforcement should be shown that they do. I expect that a rash of suicides, especially by females, might be a fingerprint of a perpetrator.

I was sexually harassed by an upper in residency. They asked me a personal question that was essentially an advance towards me, and it was clear they didn't like my answer. After that, they would continue to try to flirt with me, but then at every opportunity when the PD or such was around, would make a point of humiliating me in some fashion. I never observed them doing this to others.

Honestly, I don't share here because it was a big deal to me (I think I was too depersonalized to care beyond how being humiliated in front of uppers might affect my job), it wasn't something to kick up a fuss about, because as we know, how women are treated about things that "aren't a big deal." I want to be one of the "nice reasonable girls" that just sorta shrugs that kind of thing off rather than make people uncomfortable or come off like a crybaby about what was malignant behavior. I wouldn't be surprised if someone wanted to bash me about it for just mentioning it in an anonymous online community, when all I mean to say is, "what happened to me wasn't a big deal, but I just wanted to speak up for anyone else who has gone through this, that it happens, and there are people who will believe you, because it happened to me, and to others."

Directorship of residencies is the psychopath's playground. The method of operation for the predatory psychopath is to control, isolate, belittle and destroy one’s personal values and guide-map to identity and worth.

The bolded is a great descriptor. I'm one of the first to speak out about how residents are treated by what I consider an inhumane training system, and I can absolutely see how psychopaths would be drawn to be a PD. That said, I actually think most PDs are good people.

Reading this, and reflecting on my experiences in training, I see that is exactly what training does to the psyche, starting MS1 and never really ending. However, I am not convinced that this was due to the voluntary actions of the great number of people I have worked with, most of whom I simply cannot fathom as pyschopaths. (And I did encounter a true psychopath in training, one who battered and stalked their romantic partners, and wreaked a lot of serious damage on people's personal relationships and career. So I don't think I'm entirely blind to seeing this behavior, despite the fact that psychopaths can be tough to spot).

While I know there are quite a few psychopaths and narcissists among us in the field, who certainly are a big part of driving the abuses, what is even sadder and more alarming to me, is that I think much of the abuses are coming from how the system is set up. Think of the Milton psychology experiments on power and the complicity of people during the reign of Hitler.

I think that most people that enter the medical system are well meaning and good at heart. Which makes this more disturbing, since in that case it seems so much more difficult than screening out psychopaths, the master social chameleons. It also suggests that the problem lies with the average physician involved in training.

However, the training experience does just what you say a psychopath does. Medical training as a system, is a psychopath.

But not all psychopaths are low-functioning. I wonder how that 25% compares to medical school and residency training individuals. Psychopathy, like narcissism, is associated with extraversion and positive affect. The so-called core personality traits of psychopathy, may even be beneficial for the psychopath (in terms of nondeviant social functioning). You can see why residency programs fit like a glove for the psychopathic doctor.

A psychopathic residency director would see resident suicides as acceptable. They are merely the training process taking its course, filtering out the unwanted and less capable from the class. Too many suicides lead to bad press, though.

Not every residency director, thank God, is a psychopath. But too many are. What I find incomprehensible is why the normal social function of neutralizing and walling off psychopaths does not work in medical training. The more inhumane systems are, the more they select for those with extroverts and enthusiastic persons with shallow affect, superficial charm, manipulativeness, lack of empathy, the more they catch these people with severe personality disorder up into the medical training process.

I'll discuss below why I think the issue of resident suicide being shrugged off as some sort of unfortunate side effect that mostly relates to the "weak" and "unworthy" failing out for deserved reasons, rather than as a reflection of a possible failure of an inhumane system, is at work. It's something that is supported by the whole culture in my view, and I certainly buy that it would support that sort of attitude in leadership.

As I've said, what disturbs me is how prevalent what seems to me, a sort of "vibe" in how the whole culture looks at this and treats it.

To what extent the "non-psychopathic" "well meaning" doctors are involved, is a great part of supporting the more rare and malicious characters among us.

Why residents are taking their lives so frequently at these specific institutions need to be looked into and as a warning to MS4s who have the fortunate opportunity to choose which program you enter, be warry of the superiors. Make sure you know why you're getting into before it's too late. Garner information from current residents about their experiences with the program.

I think too much of the time, we blame the person who committed suicide, without examining enough the factors that might have contributed. Somehow by committing suicide, it does more to validate what is wrong with them, taking most focus off the system. To live however, does more to validate that the system isn't that bad.

I'll tell you right now, I know some who have had some pretty dark moments during training. I know some came pretty darn close to suicide, but didn't. Does that somehow make what they went through less damaging than if they hadn't made it? Must suicide be the ultimate protest against the treatment? Does the fact that they made it, make it not so bad? If they had committed suicide, would that have meant it was more a factor of their individual "weakness" than an inhumane system? Does not committing suicide reaffirm some idea that it's more about fortitude in the system, than a problem in the system?

Basically, if you live, that's taken as proof that training isn't so bad, and that you're just cut out for it. If you commit suicide, that is never taken as proof that the system is screwed up, rather, it's proof that the whole thing is your fault. I'm speaking in a generality, it isn't as cut and dried as this, but I seek to express something about what may be at work subconsciously.

I don't buy that is how suicide works. That as soon as someone commits suicide, they are demonstrating and essentially admitting by action, that the fault is theirs, and theirs alone. Because, "it's never the solution." No, I don't think that it is. But what if that meant the solution had to do with what was around them, and not just their reaction to it?

Suicide is multifaceted, and I do believe that the medical training system has something to answer for. These people are the best, the brightest, the hardest working, the most talented, the highest functioning. The loss of every human being is a tragedy itself, but the point here is, what are we doing with these people that we are grinding them down to where they end up? I get it, they might be so high-strung that failure in any great venture they would likely have undertaken, being ambitious as they are, might have had the same disastrous consequences.

However, is there a consensus among us that training seems partly to blame for the very wearing down of our souls that most of us has experienced at one time or another? And do we really think we can't train compassionate competent doctors in a way that isn't as hard on us as it actually is now?

Point is, I'm guessing that we each know that training takes a toll on even the strongest's mental health, and that we acknowledge that there are improvements to be made in patient care, that ironically enough, might help us as well.

The last bit I posit, that there may not be consensus, is that doing so may improve the mental health of those in healthcare to an extent that might have a measurable effect on serious negative outcomes like self-harm or physician attrition.

It's come up that suicide is not always a reaction to mental illness. However, it seems to me that in that case, I still would really want to examine what acute stressors one may have had, and to what degree did conditions at work, beyond just their own personal performance there, played a part. That is all I ask. That we consider, and that we make reasonable changes proven to improve mental health, as that is a laudable goal in itself even if we think it may not prevent these tragic deaths.

OK, tangent possibly. Coming around, if we are to examine workplace conditions, we absolutely should be looking at leadership. Residents and leadership are expected to engage in academic activities, and also other training that centers around self-care, sensitivity training, etc. What standards are we applying to program admin to measure their function as leaders supporting resident well-being? Seeing as I actually blame a lot of the system beyond the PDs, I do wonder what could be done about psychopaths at the top. Whether we approach the problem top down or from the bottom up.

Ultimately, I think part of this will need to be a culture change initiated by the many non-psychopathic physicians that ultimately are who make up this culture.

As you say, part of this is speaking out, as you have. And you can see what happens to even an attending physician, after the end of the training relationship, who speaks out against a program or a PD. You are treated like the problem, rather than the one you describe. I guess because people are so unwilling to consider what you say has a good deal of truth? Perhaps they find it easier to believe someone would essentially randomly, baselessly, and with great detail, lie about sexual harassment they have been witness to, because you were a trainee and you're making allegations against a PD? Clearly you are disgruntled, and that more likely has to do with a problem in you than in those in power?

This is called "identification with the aggressor," and it also represents a sort of "master morality" as described by Nietzsche. Like the ancient Romans and Greeks, we ascribe a moral value to the strong and the weak, whereby the strong are "good," and the weak are "bad," and each deserves what they get on that basis. In this view, in most conflicts the program is judged as good and the resident bad, thereby negating grievances of the party with less power.

I feel like I understand the sociological and psychological constructs where I see this sad behavior, that can only really be explained in such terms. It's disappointing to see that among physicians for so many reasons. We are supposed to be a filialhood (sister/brotherhood) as in our oath. We are supposed to consider the minority voice, the oppressed, those afraid to speak out should be free to come to us and share their truth. We are supposed to at least consider for a moment that which is told to us in confidence, may have a lot of truth. As much as we care for the patient, we owe as much or even more to one another.

Lastly, as some of the most highly educated, period, let alone in the art of listening, healing, understanding complex sociological and psychological concepts, if we can't open our ears and hearts, then I just think there is no hope for anyone. If we can't do it, who can? I think we must.
 
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you need some lithium bro?
This really isn't funny. I'm really disappointed in the physicians and others who liked this comment. I respect many of you, but this was completely inappropriate given the topic, and towards this poster.
 
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This really isn't funny. I'm really disappointed in the physicians and others who liked this comment. I respect many of you, but this was completely inappropriate given the topic, and towards this poster.
Thank you. I just wanted to provide you guys with some anectodal experience that very well could be affecting other residents in the country. I have no problem with long work hours and strict PDs when it comes to mistakes and more, but these kind are just mind boggling.
 
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costanza-answering-machine.gif
 
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My residency director is a psychopath. I do not use the term to be impolite or spiteful, although I do not care for this person at all. I intend to use an exact psychiatric term to describe him, in order to understand his actions. His behavior is fixed, stereotypical and predictable in its nature, which indicates a personality disorder. It involves predation on persons in medical training over whom he has power; this suggests a cluster B personality disorder, psychopathy. Other physician observers have concurred.

Wow, this shows such a gross misunderstanding of psychiatric terms/diagnoses that it makes me wonder if you truly finished medical school.
 
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Nah I don't have depressive lows and manic highs. Just the former
Honestly, if you have any of these former residents who are willing to testify against him, he needs to be prosecuted. If this story is at all true, this psycho needs to be behind bars.
This is truly disgusting behavior.
 
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Wow, this shows such a gross misunderstanding of psychiatric terms/diagnoses that it makes me wonder if you truly finished medical school.
Ok expert, please break it down for us. I completely agree about his definitions of psychopathy. I was married to one. And read similar books on psychopaths written by psychologists.

But maybe I need more clarification.

And, more importantly, a guy comes here talking about a possible sexual predator and all you have to say is that he likely didn’t go the medical school? Really?
 
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Honestly, if you have any of these former residents who are willing to testify against him, he needs to be prosecuted. If this story is at all true, this psycho needs to be behind bars.
This is truly disgusting behavior.
If the OP's post is accurate, what was done that is illegal?

Scummy? Yes. Should be fired? Absolutely. But in jail? That seems a stretch.
 
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Wow, this shows such a gross misunderstanding of psychiatric terms/diagnoses that it makes me wonder if you truly finished medical school.

Wtf would drive you to post this?
I got a formal warning on this forum and had my account on probation for a month for calling someone a clown, and stuff like this slides?

All of that horrible stuff the op posted, the only thing you felt necessary to comment on was to shame him for using “psychopath” incorrectly, which sounded pretty appropriate to me, but maybe I shouldn’t have graduated med school either.
 
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Shouldn’t be too hard to find this guy.

OP said he was an internal med PD who was also a church minister who got (presumably recently) promoted to a dean at an Ivy League medical school.
 
Ok expert, please break it down for us. I completely agree about his definitions of psychopathy. I was married to one. And read similar books on psychopaths written by psychologists.

But maybe I need more clarification.

And, more importantly, a guy comes here talking about a possible sexual predator and all you have to say is that he likely didn’t go the medical school? Really?

Wtf would drive you to post this?
I got a formal warning on this forum and had my account on probation for a month for calling someone a clown, and stuff like this slides?

All of that horrible stuff the op posted, the only thing you felt necessary to comment on was to shame him for using “psychopath” incorrectly, which sounded pretty appropriate to me, but maybe I shouldn’t have graduated med school either.

First of all, I find it highly suspicious that OP would know this person would "troll" the photos of pretty females to select and would know what would happen if the girl didn't "put out." Who else here is involved in their PD's sex life to any degree, let alone to that one? Hands please? I find it highly suspicious that the OP so non-chalanatly slips in facts about residents who also "didn't put out" and that the start of his post -- "My residency director is a psychopath" -- makes it sound like he is a current resident, but when you read on, he isn't a current resident. His PD spent 10 years at program "X" before heading to an Ivy League school.

Second, even if everything the OP posted is true, mean people do not equal psychopath. Psychopathy is linked to antisocial personality disorder and the traits the OP cited -- "His behavior is fixed, stereotypical and predictable in its nature, which indicates a personality disorder. It involves predation on persons in medical training over whom he has power; this suggests a cluster B personality disorder, psychopathy" -- is not a DSM definition of psychopathy or antisocial personality. There are millions of people with "fixed, stereotypical, and predictable" behavior who would not meet criteria for any personality disorder. And stereotypical by whose standards? What does that even mean?

Is he a sleazeball? If this is true, yes. Should he be fired? If this is true, yes. That's not psychopathy. Psychopathy is a spectrum, but it involves lawless behavior, disregard for safety of others, con artists, physical aggression, and, not to be taken lightly, some evidence of these traits (such as conduct disorder) in childhood.

This forum is littered with residents and former residents claiming they were targeted and abused by administration and the court documents that have surfaced tell a totally different story. I don't automatically believe these stories anymore and when they include diagnoses that are inaccurate based on the information given, I speak up.
 
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Wtf would drive you to post this?
I got a formal warning on this forum and had my account on probation for a month for calling someone a clown, and stuff like this slides?


As you well know, your account was subjected to more action because of your lengthy prior history of TOS violations, not because of a single infraction.
 
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[
As you well know, your account was subjected to more action because of your lengthy prior history of TOS violations, not because of a single infraction.

Alright, ok. I got a formal warning for calling someone a clown who was behaving as such, or maybe it was bozo, but something fairly benign, and my name turned blue for a month instead of a week because I had received a warning before.

Not sure why you felt the need to try and call me out on this. Point is this guy wrote something more insulting. Just IMO.

I have tried to tone my rhetoric down and not dish out anything that could be considered an insult in response to your warning but now that i’m paying attention I see worse stuff slide all the time.
 
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First of all, I find it highly suspicious that OP would know this person would "troll" the photos of pretty females to select and would know what would happen if the girl didn't "put out." Who else here is involved in their PD's sex life to any degree, let alone to that one? Hands please? I find it highly suspicious that the OP so non-chalanatly slips in facts about residents who also "didn't put out" and that the start of his post -- "My residency director is a psychopath" -- makes it sound like he is a current resident, but when you read on, he isn't a current resident. His PD spent 10 years at program "X" before heading to an Ivy League school.

Second, even if everything the OP posted is true, mean people do not equal psychopath. Psychopathy is linked to antisocial personality disorder and the traits the OP cited -- "His behavior is fixed, stereotypical and predictable in its nature, which indicates a personality disorder. It involves predation on persons in medical training over whom he has power; this suggests a cluster B personality disorder, psychopathy" -- is not a DSM definition of psychopathy or antisocial personality. There are millions of people with "fixed, stereotypical, and predictable" behavior who would not meet criteria for any personality disorder. And stereotypical by whose standards? What does that even mean?

Is he a sleazeball? If this is true, yes. Should he be fired? If this is true, yes. That's not psychopathy. Psychopathy is a spectrum, but it involves lawless behavior, disregard for safety of others, con artists, physical aggression, and, not to be taken lightly, some evidence of these traits (such as conduct disorder) in childhood.

This forum is littered with residents and former residents claiming they were targeted and abused by administration and the court documents that have surfaced tell a totally different story. I don't automatically believe these stories anymore and when they include diagnoses that are inaccurate based on the information given, I speak up.

That’s all just fine and I agree a healthy dose of skepticism is necessary on these forums, but my post was in reference to your ad hominem for using, in your opinion, less than perfectly precise medical terminology.
 
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[

Alright, ok. I got a formal warning for calling someone a clown who was behaving as such, or maybe it was bozo, but something fairly benign, and my name turned blue for a month instead of a week because I had received a warning before.

Not sure why you felt the need to try and call me out on this. Point is this guy wrote something more insulting. Just IMO.

I have tried to tone my rhetoric down and not dish out anything that could be considered an insult in response to your warning but now that i’m paying attention I see worse stuff slide all the time.
They didn’t try to call you out, they did call you out. You misrepresented a moderator action and it was corrected, let it be
 
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They didn’t try to call you out, they did call you out. You misrepresented a moderator action and it was corrected, let it be
Exactly.

I'm not trying to be difficult or to shame him here. I was correcting a misrepresentation under the guise of transparency which the user base has clamored for.

As you note, lets move on as its not relevant to this important topic.
 
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They didn’t try to call you out, they did call you out. You misrepresented a moderator action and it was corrected, let it be

SMH. Fine. Mea culpa. Not worth it.
 
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That’s all just fine and I agree a healthy dose of skepticism is necessary on these forums, but my post was in reference to your ad hominem for using, in your opinion, less than perfectly precise medical terminology.

It wasn't "less than perfectly precise medical terminology." It was a blatant misrepresentation. If someone came into the office with chest pain and shortness of breath and a fellow doctor called it a migraine, would you consider that "less than perfectly precise medical terminology"? I know it's psychiatry and many believe that diagnoses are subjective, but they actually aren't. There is specific criteria and the OP was not using it appropriately.
 
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OP, you can mention where this person worked as a PD.

People need to know.
 
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Second, even if everything the OP posted is true, mean people do not equal psychopath. Psychopathy is linked to antisocial personality disorder and the traits the OP cited -- "His behavior is fixed, stereotypical and predictable in its nature, which indicates a personality disorder. It involves predation on persons in medical training over whom he has power; this suggests a cluster B personality disorder, psychopathy" -- is not a DSM definition of psychopathy or antisocial personality. There are millions of people with "fixed, stereotypical, and predictable" behavior who would not meet criteria for any personality disorder. And stereotypical by whose standards? What does that even mean?

Agree, but I'd say pretty much everyone depending on the definition, not millions.

If you put on your seat belt before driving your car, I'd consider that fixed, stereotypical, and predictable in nature. If you brush and floss your teeth when you wake up and before going to bed, I'd consider that fixed, stereotypical, and predictable in nature. If you use the alcohol-based hand rub as you enter and exit patient rooms, I'd consider that fixed, stereotypical, and predictable in nature (hopefully).

I think most people have their set routines and their behavior could be described how OP is describing "psychopathy" but that doesn't mean they have a personality disorder.
 
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If the OP's post is accurate, what was done that is illegal?

Scummy? Yes. Should be fired? Absolutely. But in jail? That seems a stretch.
Forcing women to “put out”? That doesn’t sound like possible sexual assault to you?

Best case scenario would be sexual harassment. But when your job depends on it and you are coerced to sleep with your boss, yeah that sounds like it could be illegal.
 
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First of all, I find it highly suspicious that OP would know this person would "troll" the photos of pretty females to select and would know what would happen if the girl didn't "put out." Who else here is involved in their PD's sex life to any degree, let alone to that one? Hands please? I find it highly suspicious that the OP so non-chalanatly slips in facts about residents who also "didn't put out" and that the start of his post -- "My residency director is a psychopath" -- makes it sound like he is a current resident, but when you read on, he isn't a current resident. His PD spent 10 years at program "X" before heading to an Ivy League school.

Second, even if everything the OP posted is true, mean people do not equal psychopath. Psychopathy is linked to antisocial personality disorder and the traits the OP cited -- "His behavior is fixed, stereotypical and predictable in its nature, which indicates a personality disorder. It involves predation on persons in medical training over whom he has power; this suggests a cluster B personality disorder, psychopathy" -- is not a DSM definition of psychopathy or antisocial personality. There are millions of people with "fixed, stereotypical, and predictable" behavior who would not meet criteria for any personality disorder. And stereotypical by whose standards? What does that even mean?

Is he a sleazeball? If this is true, yes. Should he be fired? If this is true, yes. That's not psychopathy. Psychopathy is a spectrum, but it involves lawless behavior, disregard for safety of others, con artists, physical aggression, and, not to be taken lightly, some evidence of these traits (such as conduct disorder) in childhood.

This forum is littered with residents and former residents claiming they were targeted and abused by administration and the court documents that have surfaced tell a totally different story. I don't automatically believe these stories anymore and when they include diagnoses that are inaccurate based on the information given, I speak up.
The OP went on to describe further how the PD is possibly a sexual predator, refused to let him transfer, told him he would stalk him and make sure his life is miserable should he transfer, isolates and bullies and humiliates certain individuals below him in the program, etc to point to the possible diagnosis of psychopathy. You can’t say he isn’t for sure psycho any more than the OP can say for sure he is.
Like you said yourself, it’s a spectrum. Not all psychopaths are Ted Bundy, like was stated by OP. I have dealt with one or two psychos in the surgical world for sure.
 
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Forcing women to “put out”? That doesn’t sound like possible sexual assault to you?

Best case scenario would be sexual harassment. But when your job depends on it and you are coerced to sleep with your boss, yeah that sounds like it could be illegal.

If anyone believes you... o_O:mad::arghh:
(Seems to require a minimum of six credible women to one superficially credible man.)
 
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Forcing women to “put out”? That doesn’t sound like possible sexual assault to you?

Best case scenario would be sexual harassment. But when your job depends on it and you are coerced to sleep with your boss, yeah that sounds like it could be illegal.
From the OP:

And if she didn’t put out, she wouldn’t get a good rating.

Its no different from Weinstein not giving roles to actresses that wouldn't sleep with him. A massively ****ty move, but not illegal so far as I am aware.
 
From the OP:



Its no different from Weinstein not giving roles to actresses that wouldn't sleep with him. A massively ****ty move, but not illegal so far as I am aware.
VA, in all honesty, check this out with your HR people. Everything I've learned this particular scenario is that this is indeed sexual harassment.

I know of a faculty member in one of our other colleges who got himself fired for doing it with students**** (in the realm of "show me your boobs and I'll boost your grade OR you won't fail my course"). Supervisors who know about such things and don't do anything about it put the institution into the "successfully getting sued" category.

***Here's a story: Let's call the guy Dr T. He was a major pontificating fool. One day at our Faculty Senate meeting when we were discussing classroom renovations, he started rattling off about building permits and other stuff, clearly babbling for the sake of babbling, and I thought "oh you're an expert now on construction.

Dr T, being also a major league misogynist, constantly made life miserable for our Senate Chair, a woman named Dr P.

When Dr T was fired, with great delight I emailed Dr P the following, which she greatly appreciated:
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished
ie
God punishes the unjust
2Peter 2:9
 
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VA, in all honesty, check this out with your HR people. Everything I've learned this particular scenario is that this is indeed sexual harassment.

I know of a faculty member in one of our other colleges who got himself fired for doing it with students**** (in the realm of "show me your boobs and I'll boost your grade OR you won't fail my course"). Supervisors who know about such things and don't do anything about it put the institution into the "successfully getting sued" category.

***Here's a story: Let's call the guy Dr T. He was a major pontificating fool. One day at our Faculty Senate meeting when we were discussing classroom renovations, he started rattling off about building permits and other stuff, clearly babbling for the sake of babbling, and I thought "oh you're an expert now on construction.

Dr T, being also a major league misogynist, constantly made life miserable for our Senate Chair, a woman named Dr P.

When Dr T was fired, with great delight I emailed Dr P the following, which she greatly appreciated:
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished
ie
God punishes the unjust
2Peter 2:9
I'll assume that you just didn't read my first post in this thread:

If the OP's post is accurate, what was done that is illegal?

Scummy? Yes. Should be fired? Absolutely. But in jail? That seems a stretch.

Just because you can be sued for something doesn't make it illegal.

Just because you can be fired for something doesn't make it illegal.
 
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I wonder if it falls in the zone of like jaywalking and the like; there is a law, but you deal with it going to civil court and paying a fine. Not all is criminal court despite something breaking the law.
 
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When Does Sexual Harassment at Work Become a Crime? | E & B

According to this, depending on HOW you carry off your sexual harassment, it may be a crime

You don't even have to stalk or touch. This site indicated that even standing in such a way that you are blocking off someone leaving the room when they want to leave, can be unlawful imprisonment.

Also, just about any sort of sexual touch in the harassment scenario could be assault per the site above. Obvs depends on the local laws.

I've found one of the most common strategies used when I have been sexually harassed, is for the person to try to keep you from leaving by "getting in your space" to try to railroad you from the door, or even running to the door first and standing in your way. I personally find that pretty terrifying, because trying to physically push someone out of the way can escalate things to the next step, where they are now performing violence on you. So a lot of people will sit tight, wishing they could leave, but biting their tongue and hoping the person will let them leave without that kind of fuss. Not only is that wrong to do to someone, apparently that is an illegal situation to put them in.

I have no way of knowing what may or may not have happened in the described scenario from OP. But I wouldn't be surprised if sexual harassment did occur, if there were elements as described in the website, that makes it illegal.

I'm just saying that when someone relates that sexual harassment has occurred, the focus shouldn't be to try to handwave it away as just "scuzzy" but not a crime. What a message to send victims. That's why we have lawyers and judges. It's probably fair to describe it in laymen terms what actually occurred as best as possible. It's not hard to figure out when something bad has happened, and needs to be reported so that people higher on the chain can determine intervention or penalties.

Lastly, I shared this so that people could read what are the sort of things that during sexual harassment, are considered a crime, and no, maybe shouldn't be shrugged off.
 
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Also, upon reviewing the law, sexual harassment in the workplace can be a violation of the law about discrimination in hiring on the basis of gender, if it can be established that the harasser may have had impact on hiring decisions.
 
Forcing women to “put out”? That doesn’t sound like possible sexual assault to you?

Best case scenario would be sexual harassment. But when your job depends on it and you are coerced to sleep with your boss, yeah that sounds like it could be illegal.
I have heard of successful sexual assault/rape cases depending on the specifics of the coercion. Who knows exactly what a sexual harasser has actually done when these things come to light. This is why when this conduct happens it should be taken seriously, and investigated to see what has transpired and the penalties for such behavior towards victims.

Someone who sexually harasses someone HAS broken the law. It is reasonable to me to determine if that has indeed happened, and when it is determined that it has, to determine what if any crimes have been committed. Repeat offenders are extremely common almost no matter the crime being looked at.
 
Some VERY superficial search results showed up this....but I have to get this kids up, so can't do a thorough search.

Is Sexual Harassment a Crime?

Yeah, I know they're lawyers. Grain of NaCl to take here -> O
Huh. I had never heard of a difference between criminal and civil laws before (turns out it is a thing, go figure).

Best I can figure from 15 minutes of Googling, its a code of laws that tells you when you can sue and if proven correct win said lawsuit. Covers stuff like wrongful termination.

That being said, it does prove my original point. Dude wouldn't go to jail based on the OP's account.
 
Huh. I had never heard of a difference between criminal and civil laws before (turns out it is a thing, go figure).

Best I can figure from 15 minutes of Googling, its a code of laws that tells you when you can sue and if proven correct win said lawsuit. Covers stuff like wrongful termination.

That being said, it does prove my original point. Dude wouldn't go to jail based on the OP's account.
We all agree on the latter!
 
I don't think that's a thing
You can't actually successfully sue someone if it isn't on the basis of violating the law in some way.

There is absolutely a civil penalties arena.

I reviewed the laws that make employers liable for sexual harassment. That's right, there's laws, and being in violation of them is what makes sexual harassment prosecutable in civil court.

And as mentioned, sexual harassment can be a crime depending on how it's done.

Also as mentioned, being in violation of ADA law and laws on sexual harassment, and laws on discrimination based on gender (which can come into play with some sexual harrasment) is all considered illegal if not criminal.

Let's remember civil law is still law. Something can be illegal without being crime.
 
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I don't even know why it's so important for you to argue about all this sexual impropriety being illegal or not, ESPECIALLY when you are wrong. It's pretty disturbing, actually. Yea, we don't want to wrongly label certain acts as being more "serious" from a legal standpoint than they actually are, but to act like they're not illegal when they actually are...

It's a somewhat offensive way to be wrong.

I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss sexual misconduct as being legal unless I really had that on decent authority.

I'm not a huge stickler for researching everything I say, but I mean, why put your foot in seemingly minimizing and dismissing this sort of thing, if you're not on sure footing? It just looks really, really bad to argue it's not as serious as it actually is. I don't think it's a good side to be on, especially when it's the wrong side.

Just saying, if I'm going to make some big point about how sexual misconduct isn't as bad as people are saying it is, I might want to do the most superficial law review possible first.
 
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Does VA have me on ignore or something? I linked a law site that explained a good deal of this.
 
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I don't even know why it's so important for you to argue about all this sexual impropriety being illegal or not, ESPECIALLY when you are wrong. It's pretty disturbing, actually. Yea, we don't want to wrongly label certain acts as being more "serious" from a legal standpoint than they actually are, but to act like they're not illegal when they actually are...

It's a somewhat offensive way to be wrong.

I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss sexual misconduct as being legal unless I really had that on decent authority.

I'm not a huge stickler for researching everything I say, but I mean, why put your foot in seemingly minimizing and dismissing this sort of thing, if you're not on sure footing? It just looks really, really bad to argue it's not as serious as it actually is. I don't think it's a good side to be on, especially when it's the wrong side.

Just saying, if I'm going to make some big point about how sexual misconduct isn't as bad as people are saying it is, I might want to do the most superficial law review possible first.
I read his response in the morning, and had to hold my fingers back. Because really, are we Saudi Arabia, or Afghanistan where women are completely shat upon? In this country, doesn't an educated physician know the difference between criminal and civil law and whats illegal and legal and that sexual harassment is a violation of the EEOC and potentially prosecutable?

I had to put away my phone and refrain from being sarcastic to him. Like dude, are you for real? Maybe ask your wife first before you put you giant foot in your giant mouth since you don't want to use Dr. Google?
 
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I read his response in the morning, and had to hold my fingers back. Because really, are we Saudi Arabia, or Afghanistan where women are completely shat upon? In this country, doesn't an educated physician know the difference between criminal and civil law and whats illegal and legal and that sexual harassment is a violation of the EEOC and potentially prosecutable?

I had to put away my phone and refrain from being sarcastic to him. Like dude, are you for real? Maybe ask your wife first before you put you giant foot in your giant mouth since you don't want to use Dr. Google?
Now now, there's no need to be rude.

I'm not sure why you would expect me to know the intricacies of the law. I know physician laws for my state and enough criminal laws to not be pulled over/arrested. We have lawyers for anything much past that.

When my internist wife gets home, I'll ask her about this and see what she knows. If she knew all of this, I'll be back and admit I was ignorant and try to do better going forward.

If she also was unaware of all of this, I'll expect an apology from you for being something of a jerk by assuming everyone knows everything you do and being condescending when they don't.
 
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Now now, there's no need to be rude.

I'm not sure why you would expect me to know the intricacies of the law. I know physician laws for my state and enough criminal laws to not be pulled over/arrested. We have lawyers for anything much past that.

When my internist wife gets home, I'll ask her about this and see what she knows. If she knew all of this, I'll be back and admit I was ignorant and try to do better going forward.

If she also was unaware of all of this, I'll expect an apology from you for being something of a jerk by assuming everyone knows everything you do and being condescending when they don't.

Keep expecting. Don't hold your breath.

Mine and Crayola's issue is not your lack of knowledge in the matter, but your blatant dismissiveness of the situation as if you knew there was no such thing.

Had your final statement on the matter been " I didn't know that was a thing but let me look it up or ask" instead of simply "I don't think that's a thing" you wouldn't have gotten my or @Crayola227's response.

But after your first statement of "If the OPs statement is accurate, what was done that was illegal?" followed by "Just because you can be fired/sued for something doesn't make it illegal". These two statements show that you are unaware of the laws which is fine as no one knows every thing.

You should have just stopped there. You went on to sound very dismissive of a probable illegal situation (there are two sides to every story as we all know) and possible criminal situation of women getting harassed or even assaulted.

That's what I, as a woman, have issue with and suspect @Crayola227 as well, but not going to speak for he/she but I suspect she's a she.
 
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Keep expecting. Don't hold your breath.

Mine and Crayola's issue is not your lack of knowledge in the matter, but your blatant dismissiveness of the situation as if you knew there was no such thing.

Had your final statement on the matter been " I didn't know that was a thing but let me look it up or ask" instead of simply "I don't think that's a thing" you wouldn't have gotten my or @Crayola227's response.

But after your first statement of "If the OPs statement is accurate, what was done that was illegal?" followed by "Just because you can be fired/sued for something doesn't make it illegal". These two statements show that you are unaware of the laws which is fine as no one knows every thing.

You should have just stopped there. You went on to sound very dismissive of a probable illegal situation (there are two sides to every story as we all know) and possible criminal situation of women getting harassed or even assaulted.

That's what I, as a woman, have issue with and suspect @Crayola227 as well, but not going to speak for he/she but I suspect she's a she.
That's a shame, I've been impressed in the past when you've called others out for being rude before. Oh well.

So my wife was also unaware that this was illegal. Apparently "ask[ing] your wife first before you put you giant foot in your giant mouth since you don't want to use Dr. Google?" wouldn't have helped after all.

As for being wrong, I admitted as much when Goro presented evidence of that. Not sure what more you want me to do.

I also wasn't attempting to minimize the situation. My error was in thinking that illegal always meant criminal. Nothing in the OP seems to meet the criteria for criminal sexual harassment (although I'm not a lawyer and there may be more to the story) which was the point I was trying to make just using the wrong terminology. Civil sexual harrassment, absolutely (now that I know the difference). My first post in this thread even said that if this story is true the guy should be fired. I'll gladly add "should be sued" as well.
 
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The OP went on to describe further how the PD is possibly a sexual predator, refused to let him transfer, told him he would stalk him and make sure his life is miserable should he transfer, isolates and bullies and humiliates certain individuals below him in the program, etc to point to the possible diagnosis of psychopathy. You can’t say he isn’t for sure psycho any more than the OP can say for sure he is.
Like you said yourself, it’s a spectrum. Not all psychopaths are Ted Bundy, like was stated by OP. I have dealt with one or two psychos in the surgical world for sure.

The OP can describe what he wants, but the fact of the matter is, I am immediately skeptical of anyone who has that much insight into his PD's sex life, particularly when it's unclear if the OP is even a resident or if all this was 10 years ago. If it is true, the OP isn't exactly innocent in being a silent bystander. And being true doesn't equal psychopath either, which was my original point.
 
That's a shame, I've been impressed in the past when you've called others out for being rude before. Oh well.

So my wife was also unaware that this was illegal. Apparently "ask[ing] your wife first before you put you giant foot in your giant mouth since you don't want to use Dr. Google?" wouldn't have helped after all.

As for being wrong, I admitted as much when Goro presented evidence of that. Not sure what more you want me to do.

I also wasn't attempting to minimize the situation. My error was in thinking that illegal always meant criminal. Nothing in the OP seems to meet the criteria for criminal sexual harassment (although I'm not a lawyer and there may be more to the story) which was the point I was trying to make just using the wrong terminology. Civil sexual harrassment, absolutely (now that I know the difference). My first post in this thread even said that if this story is true the guy should be fired. I'll gladly add "should be sued" as well.

Alright, alright.

I just wanted you to see that you came off as dismissive. If you can see that, then we are good. I can be quite sarcastic, and that's why I held off at first as stated.

I try to read and learn a lot about stuff outside of medicine (social/economical/news kind of stuff) because as a minority and a female it's good to be in the know about your surroundings, your rights and the world outside.

So, whatever the case, if I came of as rude, I apologize.
 
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Oh jeez, of course the OP could know all about the PD's sex life, if people are gossiping about it (and likely are) AND if the gossip is true. +1 credibility points if the subject of the gossip, namely an actual female resident who was treated this way, or someone who interacted with the PD reporting actual comments they heard the PD made, to the OP.

Anyone who has actually interacted with the PD, could testify. Any one of those people, if they discussed this with OP, OP's testimony to that very affect would be admissable and not hearsay if the witness they are quoting were present in court as well.

So yeah, if OP heard about these things from direct victims/witnesses, and that's admissible in court, that's enough for me to find it a credible accusation, certainly not one I would dismiss as though it were the unlikeliest thing in the world.

I mean, ffs (for faithfulness' sake), anyone on SDN who reads most of my posts probably knows more detail about my sex life than what OP is quoting about this PD. I'm not freaky as in assault-y, but don't ever underestimate a sex freak's propensity to share about their exploits. This REALLY can go for those who engage in sexual misconduct, and ESPECIALLY if they are a psychopath and there is criminality.

It's sex offender 101, that rather than keeping quiet about their crimes, as one would logically expect, they usually brag about it to someone somewhere. Why when this makes no sense, most people don't want to hear it, and it makes it more likely they are caught? Because why sexually harass/assault - it's all the same thing, whatever level of sick psychology motivates the conduct in the first place, is still at work with the bragging. It's part of what they get from it. They don't want it to be a secret beyond just not wanting to face negative consequences.

Sorry, but with the discussion regarding basic stuff like there's civil law, I thought it important to educate people on the ACTUAL trends in behavior of those who engage in sexual misconduct. I can't say exactly how often this happens - just that surprisingly enough, it indeed does.
 
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