In search of the perfect list of potential schools...

[dzukunft]

Hello everybody! (Simpsons, anyone?)

After some preliminary research (e.g. MSAR, school websites and personal/professional recommendations), I have compiled a rough draft of schools to which I might apply. While I know the decision is relatively subjective and depends upon a number of factors, I wanted to see if anyone on the boards might be willing to weigh in on the subject.

Just to get all the initial stuff out on the table... I am a single, middle-class Caucasian who is 28-years-old. I have no children and no attachments to Indianapolis; moving across the country is not a problem. My cum GPA is 3.5 and my recent sGPA is 4.0. (I have not taken biochemistry or genetics...yet.) Apart from my MCAT score (test date is August 15), my AMCAS application is ready to be submitted. I am basing my school choices on a MCAT of 30. It's not an ideal situation, I know. Work with me... I have significant leadership & work experience, volunteerism (civic and health-related) and clinical experience/shadowing. I just signed on with a research study that is using placental stem cells to regenerate arteries and heart muscle.

Other info can be referenced in previous threads:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=322539
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=482426

This is the list of schools I am considering (semi-alpha order). Any suggestions on how to trim the list? (After all, I'm not rich.) Schools I should forget about? Consider?

Albert Einstein
Brown
Case Western
Columbia
Cornell
Dartmouth
Drexel
Emory
Georgetown
IU (Alma mater.)
Iowa
Johns Hopkins (It's my pipe dream. Leave me alone.)
Loyola
Mayo
NYU
Northwestern
Penn
Rosalind Franklin
UCI
U of Chicago
U of Pittsburgh
UW
Vanderbilt
Wake Forest

Thanks!

Doug

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[DrMidlife]

Hmm. You're taking the MCAT too late to be an early applicant, and that's a big loss. If you're dead-set on MD (vs. DO or Carib) then I'd recommend you add a year to your story, postpone the MCAT until you can get 32+, and apply next June 1 at 12:01 am. Meanwhile, take more undergrad classes, collect LORs & pile on the ECs.

If you haven't seen the new MSAR (it's been out about a month) it has GPA and MCAT ranges, 10th & 90th percentiles, which should be very useful information for you. Very sobering.

If that UW is Washington, don't do it: no support for OOS. If it's Wisconsin, sure, and note that they require 4 LORs.

Hit Loma Linda if you continue to dig on Jesus.

I think you have too many reaches, and you need to cut that down to maybe 10% of your list unless you want to spend the money (which you're saying you don't.) These look like reaches to me: Case Western, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Emory, Hopkins, Mayo, NYU, Northwestern, Penn, Chicago, Vanderbilt.

More less reachy schools to consider: Tulane, GWU, Rush, Albany, NYMC, EVMS.

Best of luck to you.

 

[gman33]

It's impossible to give advice without seeing an MCAT score.
If you get a 30 many of the schools on your list will be well out of reach.
It wouldn't be a matter of "trimming" the list, there would only be 2-3 schools at which you would be a competitive applicant.
You need a 35+ to be a strong applicant at most of those schools, plus you will be applying late which is another strike. Unless you are very confident for can score 35+, make sure you add a bunch of less competitive schools or you will be applying again next year.

Good luck with the MCAT.

 

[QofQuimica]

Agree with the above posters about your timing. Either take the MCAT earlier (early July by the latest), or apply next year. Even the most stellar 4.0 GPA/40 MCAT applicants really don't have the luxury to be completing their apps in late Sept/early Oct. Schools can and do run out of invites and seats to offer to very late applicants. You are better off applying *once* next year in June instead of applying so late this year that there is a good chance you will have to reapply next year anyway.

As others have already said, definitely take U Wash off your list, because Indiana is not a WWAMI state, and you will quickly get rejected there based solely upon state residency requirements. If you do get a 30 on the MCAT, consider taking off all of the Ivies and most of the other coastal schools that are in highly desirable geographic locations where every 21-year-old wants to go, and hit the Midwest and South harder. There are lots of excellent schools in both regions that get half the apps or less versus coastal schools like Georgetown.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Phoenix.]

Alas, I agree with the sound advice above. Given your late apps and a prospective 30 MCAT score, you definitely need to add more schools that are less of a reach. If you've got the dough, you can leave your large reach list, of course. In addition to the schools recommended above, you should also check out: SLU, Rochester, Creighton and UVM. Good luck!

 

[flip26]

You have gotten good advice here, so very little to add except that your app will be late this cycle with an Aug MCAT, and you will not really know if your list is too heavily loaded with reaches until you get the score back in September...I would put off applying until next cycle, and if you could use the time wisely, I would delay taking the MCAT until, say, next January.

In fact, not only is this my advice, this is exactly what I am doing - I am finishing up classes this summer, so technically will have taken all the pre reqs, but I decided to defer until next year, will take the MCAT in January, and will also use the year productively to do more EC stuff...

 

[Wednesday]

Why Penn and Drexel and not Jefferson and Temple?

Just curious.

 

[Blade28]

Agree with all of the excellent advice posted above - it's sobering and a little frightening, but honest (which is what we all need).

 

[dzukunft]

Why Penn and Drexel and not Jefferson and Temple?

Specific suggestions from professors. That's why I was asking for feedback on other schools to consider. I'll be sure to look into both Jefferson and Temple. Thanks!

To everyone else...

While I appreciate the advice posited thus far, I have no intention of delaying until the next application cycle. Apart from my MCAT score, my application is finished (along with my LOCs) and will be submitted to AMCAS this weekend. While I understand the logic in thinking that this 'late' application will prevent me from getting into the more competitive schools on the list, I have been counseled by certain ADCOM members and doctors (those familiar with my application, person and history) that such is not necessarily the case. Their advice has overwhelmingly been to go for broke and apply this year. Of course, it all depends upon my MCAT score. In any case, I don't agree that this is cause to postpone for a year. (Besides, we aren't even taking into account my ECs, LOCs and extensive volunteerism and shadowing experiences.) A less drastic, more realistic option would be to change the list, something I will most certainly do.

After all, the original post never concerned the question of when to apply. Some posters freely offered that advice, which has been certainly received and considered. What I really wanted to know was that, given my stats and desire to apply for 2009, what schools need to be kicked off the list and those that should take their place. (Please keep in mind that most of the schools were specific recommendations from professors and physicians, who believed them to be a good fit for me.) To the extent that the above posts have centered on school choices, I am thankful. So keep the school recommendations coming!

P.S. If anyone takes my tone in this post as 'belligerent', please know that this is not my intent. Some of you have made your opinion quite clear (e.g. that I should wait and apply next year). In a like manner, I have made it clear that I do not believe that this is in my best interest or necessary. So let's agree to disagree and not get into a big fight over it. If I don't make it in this year, fine. There's always next time. I accept that that is a very real possibility. Only time will tell.

 

[tbo]

Specific suggestions from professors. That's why I was asking for feedback on other schools to consider. I'll be sure to look into both Jefferson and Temple. Thanks!

After all, the original post never concerned the question of when to apply. Some posters freely offered that advice, which has been certainly received and considered. What I really wanted to know was that, given my stats and desire to apply for 2009, what schools need to be kicked off the list and those that should take their place. (Please keep in mind that most of the schools were specific recommendations from professors and physicians, who believed them to be a good fit for me.) To the extent that the above posts have centered on school choices, I am thankful. So keep the school recommendations coming!

Well, it sounds like your opinion was already well-formed before you posted here. My thoughts are that there is very sage advice being given with respect to "getting your bunnies lined up" for next year, but so be it. With respect to "Why Penn and Drexel", there are very few professors who understand the rigors and logic of med school selection and gauging one's competitiveness. Sure it would be GREAT for your neuro professor to tell you to apply to Columbia and work for Eric Kandel, but does that make it smart for you to apply there?

I was -- to describe myself -- bone-headed with my school selection. I might even call myself pompous. The process is both humbling and draining, and the verve and confidence that you express "If I don't make it in this year, fine." remains if you don't get in, then good for you. My learn-the-hard-way-lesson was to waste more money and emotional capital to eventually attain my goals.

Clearly it's up to you to take all advice you get and provide personal context to it on your own - that includes my advice, advice from any SDNer and even the advice of your professors and physicians who know your story. It's up to you to distinguish between accepting what you want to hear and assimilating what is appropriate for your own situation.

 

[Phoenix.]

I'm 33, and I completely understand your distaste for the idea of waiting a year. I felt the exact same way. Everyone here was just giving you their best advice, not insisting that it was their way or the highway. If I were you, I'd scrounge up all the money I could to apply to as many schools as I could this year. Applying late is definitely going to impact your application significantly, but I don't think it will be a dealbreaker if your app is otherwise solid. You'll just have to cast a wider net to up your chances. Applying next year if you don't get in this year will be thousands of dollars more, and a year wasted, so if you can at all swing it, I'd keep ALL of those schools on your list (or at least keep the ones you feel passionate about regardless of how much of a reach they are), and add a LOT (if not all) of the ones suggested in this thread. Go for broke (literally). You won't regret it as much as being on a bunch of waitlists (or no acceptances) and wondering if only you'd added UVM or Albany if you'd be holding an acceptance. And seriously, the costs of reapplying would be much, much worse.

From my own personal experience, I really think you should go with your gut, even if it means applying to reach schools. Take a look at my mdapps. A friend in med school convinced me I wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of getting into my dream school, Mayo, so I didn't apply in June when I sent out my applications. I ended up applying at the end of September when I realized it was my own $80 to throw away on a dream, and somehow ended up getting in off the waitlist yesterday with a huge scholarship. On the other hand, all of my interviewers and admissions people I met while interviewing this year insisted I'd be getting into Northwestern, and said I'd be a perfect fit there. Someone needed to tell Northwestern that though, as they never even offered me an interview (I credit my 8 in PS to that, specifically). So yeah, take ALL advice about chances with a grain of salt. The best advice I can give you is to really thoroughly read up on every school you're interested in, and apply to those that feel like a good fit. And write well-tailored secondary essays explaining why. Hopefully the stars will align.

Oh, and one more thing. Make sure that all of the schools you apply to have your LORS and secondaries by the time your MCAT score is posted, so that your file is complete and ready for review almost immediately thereafter. Granted, for those schools that screen before sending secondaries there will be a delay, but for those, at least see the thread on SDN with the essay questions and have the secondaries pre-written ahead of time.

 

[dzukunft]

tbo,

To the degree that my opinion concerning applying for 2009 was well-formed, you are most certainly correct. Personally speaking, the costs of NOT applying this year far outweigh the costs of waiting until next year. And, by costs, I mean to take the term quite literally. Loans are now due. Financial aid is drained. Any classes I take come out of pocket. And there is no money in that pocket! So it is a gamble for me either way.

On the other hand, if you think my school choice was well-formed before I posted, I believe you have misinterpreted me. My posting here was due to the very reason that professors do not understand the selection process. I figured SDNers might have some better suggestions, and they do. Every school on that list - with the exception of IU (my alma mater and in-state school) - is open to change and review. If a poster gave me a list of 20 different schools more within my reach, I would be very open to swapping them for the current list. In fact, I've already nixed Hopkins, UW and Penn based off of the advice here. I suppose far more will share the same fate, while others like Tulane will be added.

And please do not mistake my "c'est la vie" attitude for cockiness. I am firmly aware that I may not be accepted this year. What is more, I know I am not the most competitve applicant out there. So if I don't get in, it isn't so much "Good for me," it's more "Well, we gave it a shot. Let's learn from that round and try again."

 

[dzukunft]

Make sure that all of the schools you apply to have your LORS and secondaries by the time your MCAT score is posted, so that your file is complete and ready for review almost immediately thereafter. Granted, for those schools that screen before sending secondaries there will be a delay, but for those, at least see the thread on SDN with the essay questions and have the secondaries pre-written ahead of time.

That's my plan.

And thanks so much for your post. You really resonated with the feelings and issues that I'm dealing with. And the positive vibe definitely goes a long way!

 

[QofQuimica]

Doug,

I intended my post to give you some alternative options and potential consequences if you take one versus another route. But under no circumstances do I think you are obligated to follow my advice, and I certainly don't take it as a personal affront that you plan to apply this year anyway. I do honestly believe you are taking a significant risk of not getting accepted because of your timing, but it's neither illegal nor unethical for you, as a competent adult, to make that decision. I hope things work out well for you this year; it would be great if you could come back a year from now and tell me and the other regulars that we were wrong to advise you to wait. I also think it's good that you removed those schools you mentioned from your list. Best of luck to you.

 

[remo]

UCI - is this UC Irvine? You have virtually no shot there unless you are a CA resident. You should add Univ of Cincinnati. They love OOS and non-trad students. Plus with Cinici you get in-state tuition after the first year.

 

[Phoenix.]

UCI - is this UC Irvine? You have virtually no shot there unless you are a CA resident. You should add Univ of Cincinnati. They love OOS and non-trad students. Plus with Cinici you get in-state tuition after the first year.

Yeah, your best bet in CA would be Loma Linda if you're of the religious mind set. The UCs are notoriously difficult for instate applicants to get into, let alone OOS applicants. You'd have a better chance OOS at Texas schools than CA I would think.

Good point about Cincinnati. I think I heard that you get instate tuition at the SUNYs after the first year too, but I don't know what the OOS acceptance figures are like. Might want to look them up in the MSAR.

 

[dzukunft]

Doug,

I intended my post to give you some alternative options and potential consequences if you take one versus another route. But under no circumstances do I think you are obligated to follow my advice, and I certainly don't take it as a personal affront that you plan to apply this year anyway. I do honestly believe you are taking a significant risk of not getting accepted because of your timing, but it's neither illegal nor unethical for you, as a competent adult, to make that decision. I hope things work out well for you this year; it would be great if you could come back a year from now and tell me and the other regulars that we were wrong to advise you to wait. I also think it's good that you removed those schools you mentioned from your list. Best of luck to you.

No hard feelings. And that goes for anyone else who advised me to wait a year! =) I knew the risk I was taking...just wanted to focus on the schools. Beyond the Top 50 list (from US News), I don't really have an idea of which schools are in the middle tier versus the bottom tier. To be honest, my best shot is at Indiana - simply because it is in-state, and I've shadowed approximately 20 physicians and surgeons who sit on the ADCOM committee.

In other news... Bye, bye UCI. And Loma Linda isn't really my cup of tea. But I'll definitely add Cincinnati to the 'new list'.

 

[dzukunft]

After looking at GPA ranges, calculating OOS acceptance rates and looking at primary deadlines, I have compiled a new working list. Hopefully, it is a little more balanced... And we are now shooting for a 35+ on the MCAT to bring those reach schools in range.

IN-RANGE SCHOOLS:
Albany
Cincinnati
Drexel
Georgetown
GWU
IU
Iowa
Jefferson
Loyola
NYMC
Rochester
Rosalind Franklin
SLU
Tufts
Wake Forest

REACH SCHOOLS:
Albert Einstein
Brown
Case Western
Columbia
Dartmouth
Mayo
U Chicago

 

[flip26]

After looking at GPA ranges, calculating OOS acceptance rates and looking at primary deadlines, I have compiled a new working list. Hopefully, it is a little more balanced... And we are now shooting for a 35+ on the MCAT to bring those reach schools in range.

IN-RANGE SCHOOLS:
Albany
Cincinnati
Drexel
Georgetown
GWU
IU
Iowa
Jefferson
Loyola
NYMC
Rochester
Rosalind Franklin
SLU
Tufts
Wake Forest

REACH SCHOOLS:
Albert Einstein
Brown
Case Western
Columbia
Dartmouth
Mayo
U Chicago

Good list, but consider EVMS and VCU...GWU, Georgetown and Tufts get tons of apps and are really hard to classify as anything but reaches, rejecting tons of apps with good stats...and Wake has very odd "fit" issues and rejects tons of apps with really good stats...

 

[Nasem]

I was always under the assumption that even the august MCAT is not too late... but then again, what do I know, I've never applied before

This question is a little off-topic.... is july "theoretically" the latest you can take the mcat if your applying early june ??

 

[dzukunft]

I was always under the assumption that even the August MCAT is not too late... but then again, what do I know, I've never applied before.

I'm right there with you. In fact, I've met quite a few med students and residents in the past three weeks that all got accepted with August MCAT scores and mean GPAs (e.g. 3.5/6). It's far from impossible, despite the prevailing opinion on these forums. Sure, it decreases your odds significantly, but it isn't impossible. With that said, I'd make certain the rest of your application - personal statement, LOCs, ECs and shadowing - are excellent. If I didn't have those ducks in a row, I would definitely wait until next year.

Just my $0.02...

 

[Law2Doc]

.GWU, Georgetown and Tufts get tons of apps and are really hard to classify as anything but reaches, rejecting tons of apps with good stats....

Agree with this. The Boston and DC schools for whatever reason get an absurdly huge number of applications each year, so you are competing with more people. The rankings are deceptive on these. You are probably better off replacing these with the other Philly schools as someone mentioned above.

 

[Nevadanteater]

Hello everybody! (Simpsons, anyone?)

edit:

"Hi Everybody!"

 

[Kate6058]

I was always under the assumption that even the august MCAT is not too late... but then again, what do I know, I've never applied before

This question is a little off-topic.... is july "theoretically" the latest you can take the mcat if your applying early june ??

I've read all the warnings on SDN, but I've also been given the advice that taking the August MCAT is not too late as long as your AMCAS is submitted early and your secondaries are in or ready to go by the time you get your score back. I suppose it matters more for some schools than others, and that you'd be in a more comfortable position with the less competitive or your in-state schools (assuming your state isn't CA).

Right now I'm debating rescheduling my MCAT to August 5 from July, and I'm not sure what to do. Have a few more weeks to study and possibly get that better score in August, or score not as well in July and want to retake in August anyway?

 

[tbo]

I've read all the warnings on SDN, but I've also been given the advice that taking the August MCAT is not too late as long as your AMCAS is submitted early and your secondaries are in or ready to go by the time you get your score back. I suppose it matters more for some schools than others, and that you'd be in a more comfortable position with the less competitive or your in-state schools (assuming your state isn't CA).

Right now I'm debating rescheduling my MCAT to August 5 from July, and I'm not sure what to do. Have a few more weeks to study and possibly get that better score in August, or score not as well in July and want to retake in August anyway?

Take the MCAT on the date that maximizes your score, whenever that is. An August app with a 28 is worse than a late September app with a 32 or 30. Anyways, if you end up being particularly late, just apply next year. A year will not kill anyone (up until the age of, say, 35). The train stops, however, if you don't achieve a solid score regardless of when you took it and when you apply. G'luck.

 

[dzukunft]

edit:

"Hi Everybody!"

Dang, how could I get it wrong?!