In this day in age, why would you want to be a doctor?

[GoatBoy]

The subject says it all.

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[THE instiGATOR]

Why wouldn't you want to be a physician?

 

[leorl]

I don't exactly understand why "in this day and age" it would be a bad thing to be a doctor, thus causing a question to be asked that seems to say, "why would you want to torture yourself for the rest of your life by becoming a doctor?" (obviously extreme.

I want to become a doctor for a number of reasons - it's an inherent compulsion, I can't see myself doing anything else and being happy. It's a profession where you have to opportunity of really making a difference in hundreds of people's lives, hopefully for the better. Yeah yeah, all doctors say this, and most really mean it. It's a lot of very hard work and students do have to give up more than your average grad student, but it's worth it. Draws both on intelligence and creativity - which I don't think you can find in many professions. Plus, you still get quite a bit o' $$$ doing it.

I don't know why you're asking this question.

 

[md2be06]

I don't think you have to be too creative to be a physician. I think you just have to possess a certain level of academic and reasoning ability, and then be willing to work very hard. There are a lot of brilliant and creative people out there that would make crappy physicians cause they're not willing to work hard. And there are some very hard working people who wouldn't make great physicians just because they don't have the necessary reasoning abilities. You have to have a little bit of both in my opinion.

 

[none]

A doctor has the greatest respect generally attainable in society, an immensely stable income, and relative to the vast majority of jobs, a very high income.

 

[jimjones]

'cause I'd enjoy the work.

 

[GoatBoy]

I ask this question because I have heard that it comes up once in a while in interviews and I didnt quite know what to think of it, so I thought I would try to get some of your opinions about it.

 

[lake show]

'cause I'd enjoy the work.••

i wonder how many applicants who go into medical school straight from college actually know if this is true? i mean, if you've never done anything but go to school, how can you really know what career path is most suitable and enjoyable? sorta gives us career changers a bit more of a reference point. but, of course, there are many who will go in and love medicine.

 

[Cobragirl]

I have to admit that I was shocked by the number of classmates I have that have NOT worked (or have only had one or two short-term summer jobs). I actually overheard one talking about his "first job" that he got over his "21st" summer. OMG!!!!! For someone like myself, who has been working constantly since turning 15 ("real" jobs...not just baby-sitting for neighbors, etc), I often wonder just how these people are going to cope with the "politics" of working. I also wonder if these are the people who turn out to be the "a$$hole" doctors because they've never learned how to deal with other people in a job setting, but are now "in charge" of everyone in the office! Yet another reason I think that business/management classes should be worked into medical education. Just because you're smart enough to become a doc, doesn't mean you'll make a good boss...

 

[nochaser]

I collect stories from an internet board for docs where the topic is "getting out of medicine". At first I thought this sentiment would be reserved for physicians that have 20+ years under their belt and have seen the changes due to managed care and find their practices negatively affected, but I was wrong. Some of the posts were from newly minted docs and residents, and they were very disheartening. To make a long story short, many of the complaints were about the patients, and some were about managed care issues pertaining to prescriptions and reimbursements. Many of them are NOT making what they consider as *enough* money, and many also cited not having a life, time for family, etc. A few regarded medical education and training as "BS", and are encouraging the premeds to get into physician assistant, nursing, business or law.

Given all of this, I still want to be a doctor. Maybe it's a spiritual calling. Maybe because I have an interest in biology, the human body, and medicine. Perhaps because I truly love people, all types of people, and find that interacting and problem-solving with them on such an intimate level may be in a way, an enrichening experience for me. Maybe because I like a challenge. Maybe I am a bit of a sadist. I don't really know how to sum all of this up into one statement, but I know I am not alone, here, am I?

 

[Jamier2]

Originally posted by Cobragirl:
•I also wonder if these are the people who turn out to be the "a$$hole" doctors because they've never learned how to deal with other people in a job setting, but are now "in charge" of everyone in the office!•••

Maybe 'tis.

 

[none]

Sure, some people get out of medicine, but compare those numbers to pretty much anything else. The thing is...work isn't always complete bliss and it must always be looked at relative to other careers

 

[Tweetie_bird]

It's important to remember that just as the medical profession is changing, so is law, business etc etc. One of my patients from last week is an attorney, and makes relatively "enough" money compared to other attorneys, yet she was complaining about lawyers losing their autonomy within each firm. The reason being is that people such as CPA's/Accountants within each firm hired to work with lawyers seem to be dictating what could be more beneficial for the lawyer to strike a deal, thus double-guessing the lawyer's judgement. Sound a little familiar? I don't mean to pick on accountants etc, but doctors are not the only ones who have to deal with those kinds of issues. Every profession has it's own bull**** that you have to put up with.

Having said that, I want to emphasize one thing--I only want to do what I enjoy. My source of inspiration to work as a physician comes from the gratification I get from working with patients, and seeing changes I bring about in people. The fulfillment I gain from being at the right time at the right minute to help somebody, outweighs all the BS about HMO's, insurance policies etc. I guess my point is--do what keeps you happy. The rest will always fall into place.

Tweetie

 

[fourthwatch96822]

"it's a lot of hard work and med students have to give up more than there average grad student."

People tend to make assumptions about other careers without having any idea of what they are talking about.

Grad school is a huge undertaking. Some programs are harder to get into than med school. Clinical psych is a good example.

Grad students sacrifice alot. I dormed with grad students before and they do not have time to be posting messages on boards like these!! When you have responsibilities as a junior faculty member, handling your coursework and your dissertation and your research, you bet that you have to work hard. You are a teacher, a student, and a researcher. If you are in a psych program, you are also a practicum student seeing patients.

It is true, you must walk a mile in one's shoes to know what one goes through.

 

[Salman20001]

hey nochaser...mind posting that website you mentioned regarding docs posting complaints..

There is no doubt that Medicine has its share of problems, but so does nursing, law etc. The problems are of different forms but still pose a similar frustrating experience for the person practicing it. Now I don't want to start a DDS vs MD debate, but as a complete third party to both, I must say that dentists do have it much easy compared to a lot of other professions out there. Please feel free to refute this, 'cause I am very curious to know otherwise. If you can stand teeth, (which really is just another part of the body), and wouldn't mind actually 'Living' life , isn't DDS a good profession to get into..Once again, there is no doubt that every profession has its own share of problems, but some seem to have it more than others. It just seems that ALL the problems in DDS are just a subset of the problems of Medicine.

 

[Ibis]

Great point, Cobragirl. I fear the same concern. Most med students simply don't possess the life/work experiences to conduct themselves appropriately in a position of power.

I think waiting or bussing tables, for at least 6 months, would be suitable exposure to the amount of disrespect that gets dished out, sort of speak. Getting crapped on, night after night, really sends home the message.

 

[Nik]

This is in reponse to Cobragirl's first message. Cobragirl, Just because someone hasn't worked before med school (which is extremely rare these days) doesn't necessarily put them at a disavantage in the workplace as a physician. It all comes down to the person and his or her experiences. Some have a death in the family or personal health problems that cause them to take the profession much more seriously than others who have decided to work. Anyway, my point is that it comes down to who you are that will determine the type of physician you will be.

 

[Elysium]

I think asking the question "why go into medicine in this day and age" is a very fair one. The fact is that medicine has changed enormously in the last thirty years. My father graduated from UTMB in 1972 and has been in practice in Houston since then. I've seen his practice effected by HMOs, managed care, tax increases (via Clinton. Most collegues of my dad pay roughly $90,000 in taxes a year), malpractice insurance fees increase (about $2000 a month), and having to deal with employees, etc. The idea of having your own practice is a thing of the past. Unless you want to be a businessperson as well as a doctor, you need to practice for a PPO or HMO and play by their rules. I have seen him very frustrated with the new health care, and I feel bad that he still works his ass off and there is an enormous amount of stress (and he's 10 years away from retirement). As far as making tons of money as a doctor, well that is also a thing of the past. You still make around $150,000 a year, but when you start factoring in your mortgage, overhead, child's education, taxes, you see that money has to stretch pretty far.
Also, recently the federal govt mandated that the drug companies can no longer take docs out to lunch or dinner at nice resturants. While the CEOs of major companies, lawyers, entertainment people are still enjoying major perks, you can kiss that goodbye for docs. I know it may soud snotty, but society expects docs to be perfect, altrustic, and God-like. If not, well here's the 500,000 dollar lawsuit for you.
It may sound like I'm bitter about medicine, but the fact is that I'm a realist. Knowing all this, and defying the advice of my parents who think I should be a lawyer, I've decided to become a physician. I truly do love medicine and can't imagine doing anything else with my life. But, I know that it's going to be a hard road, and I'm determined to learn from my dad's experience.

 

[tBw]

Originally posted by TEDillard03:
• As far as making tons of money as a doctor, well that is also a thing of the past. You still make around $150,000 a year, but when you start factoring in your mortgage, overhead, child's education, taxes, you see that money has to stretch pretty far.
•••

Umm...but lots of people who don't earn $150,000 also have these costs....

Originally posted by TEDillard03:
• Also, recently the federal govt mandated that the drug companies can no longer take docs out to lunch or dinner at nice resturants.•••

OMG...no free lunches!? Well, screw this becoming a doctor then!

 

[Skye04]

Originally posted by TEDillard03:
[QB]As far as making tons of money as a doctor, well that is also a thing of the past. You still make around $150,000 a year, but when you start factoring in your mortgage, overhead, child's education, taxes, you see that money has to stretch pretty far.[QB]••

Are you planning on having like a dozen children? AND buying them all their own cars?? I feel like I am missing something here. I know for a fact that with an income far less than half of that a family can put three children through expensive colleges without the help of financial aid.

 

[Dr. Geoff]

$150,000... wow! I did not know doctors had it so bad.

Hello!, other people have to play those same expenses on 1/3 that income. That was the dumbest argument I have ever seen on the forums. Congradulations...

 

[Whisker Barrel Cortex]

I agree that the way the poster talked about the 150,000 did not sound too convincing. No doctor will be in the poorhouse. However, if you consider the debt loads at most private medical school these days, the number don't look as rosy:

At many private med schools, a large percentage of students will have debt close to 200,000 when they graduate (I will have $170,000). According to our financial aid seminar, paying this off over 10 years means paying back a total of >500,000.

So, using these numbers, if you get out of med school and residency (where you earn about 5-8 dollars per hour)when you are 28-30 years old and begin a family practice job at $100,000, you must pay 40,000-50,000 in loans per year to pay your loans off in TEN years. This means your actual take home income after 11 years of higher education is $60,000! This is a pretty decent wage, but if you consider the years of toil, it is not much. And since the loan payments are not tax deductible if you make more than $70,000, your taxes take come to at least $30,000. Take off the malpractice insurance of 5-10K for FPs, and you're left with a $25,000 dollar income. Obviously, to avoid this situation many FPs and internists will pay off their debt over 20-30 years instead which means they will be in debt until they are 50 or 60 years old!

No wonder FP and general internal medicine are so unpopular these days. Add to the money woes the problems of dealing with insurance companies and HMOs and medicine, especially primary care, seems a much less attractive proposition. Even the joy of helping patients is diminished by having to limit patients visits to 5-10 minutes just to make ends meet.

Sorry to paint such a bleak picture, but I think it is necessary for people to understand that medicine has a great number of problems these days.

 

[fourthwatch96822]

"Society expects doctors to be perfect, altruistic, and God-like."

Society does not expect doctor's to be perfect or God-like. People know that they are far from perfect. In fact there are people that believe that their doctor will screw up. I have a friend who must always confirm with her pharmacist that her new prescription won't interfere with the other medicines that she is taking.

I know people have high expectations of their doctors. But, this is not expecting them to be God-like. People also have high expectations of lawyer, dentists, judges, psychologists, etc.

Also, I know people whom are not even surprised that their doctor smokes. And these people do not work in healthcare.

I always hear people make statements like this: "my doctor needs to stop thinking that he is God. He needs to get off of his pedestal before he falls off."

 

[fourthwatch96822]

I think it is safe to say that a doctor will probably live comfortable. Also, there will always be jobs for physicians.

 

[imtiaz]

That's what IIIIIIMMMMMMMMMMMM talkin' bout.
As a grad student in the sciences, I can tell you that I've spent many a night (~11PM) in the lab finishing up experiments.

Originally posted by fourthwatch96822:
•"it's a lot of hard work and med students have to give up more than there average grad student."

People tend to make assumptions about other careers without having any idea of what they are talking about.

Grad school is a huge undertaking. Some programs are harder to get into than med school. Clinical psych is a good example.

Grad students sacrifice alot. I dormed with grad students before and they do not have time to be posting messages on boards like these!! When you have responsibilities as a junior faculty member, handling your coursework and your dissertation and your research, you bet that you have to work hard. You are a teacher, a student, and a researcher. If you are in a psych program, you are also a practicum student seeing patients.

It is true, you must walk a mile in one's shoes to know what one goes through.•••

 

[bald]

Originally posted by imtiaz:
•That's what IIIIIIMMMMMMMMMMMM talkin' bout.
As a grad student in the sciences, I can tell you that I've spent many a night (~11PM) in the lab finishing up experiments.

•••

11 pm? oh no.

the argument of med student vs other grad students is a stupid one. i know some computer science graduate students who dont work very hard. i know other graduate students who work very hard. im sure there are slackers and hard-workers in every program, and i fail to see the point of talking about it.

to comment on the "why be a physician today." i have some friends who have parents that are physicians who complain about the HMO/decreasing salaray thing. It brings tears to my eyes when i hear the hardships these doctors are suffering. One OB/GYN actually had to sell his mercedes to buy his new porsche. How he has the strength to serve people all day, so admirable.

 

[imtiaz]

Are you undermining my statement? You compared grad students to grad students. We are comparing MED students to grad students. I agree with you that it is stupid to talk about, and that the nature of the work involved is different in that medical students(who are not really grad students in the rigorous sense of the word, theyre professional school students) spend hours studying while grad students (the real ones) spend hours researching AND studying AND teaching AND grading papers. It doesn't compare, you dont know until you have been through it.

Originally posted by bald:
•

11 pm? oh no.

the argument of med student vs other grad students is a stupid one. i know some computer science graduate students who dont work very hard. i know other graduate students who work very hard. im sure there are slackers and hard-workers in every program, and i fail to see the point of talking about it.
•••

 

[Elysium]

How many people in this discussion are practicing physcians? How many of you guys have seen first hand how difficult it is to be a physian, to run a business, to worry about law suits (a very very real concern for every speciality), and to pay the government their 37%? Honestly.
I didn't say that $150,000 is some abysmal salary, but you have to consider how much time goes into that figure. No other profession requires as much schooling and training. If you start to do the math (with loan repayments, etc) you'll see that that salary is average considering the level of training. I am fully aware that the majority of the population lives well below that amount, but again, they haven't invested 15 years in job training!
As far being able to send kids to PRIVATE school on a $60,000 salary, that is just a joke. Try $27,000 a year tution (at Boston Univ, e.g.) plus expenses and you can see how it starts to add up.
Just don't get on some high and mighty attitude about medicine until you participate in it first hand (and shadowing some random surgeon or talking to your family doc doesn't count).

 

[Skye04]

Originally posted by TEDillard03:
•As far being able to send kids to PRIVATE school on a $60,000 salary, that is just a joke. Try $27,000 a year tution (at Boston Univ, e.g.) plus expenses and you can see how it starts to add up.•••

No, not a joke. My parents did it and many others do as well. I am sure they had to make sacrifices (ex: no BMW) but it is entirely feasible.

 

[tBw]

Originally posted by TEDillard03:
• How many people in this discussion are practicing physcians? How many of you guys have seen first hand .......blah blah blah....
Just don't get on some high and mighty attitude about medicine until you participate in it first hand (and shadowing some random surgeon or talking to your family doc doesn't count).•••

Are you??????

Sorry, while an MD degree may come in handy for many things I don't need an MD to make a reasoned argument eg $150,000/year does not equal the poor house.

Are you going to allow your patients to have opinions? Or only if they have an MD?

In your last post you say

Originally posted by TEDillard03:
•I didn't say that $150,000 is some abysmal salary, but you have to consider how much time goes into that figure. No other profession requires as much schooling and training. If you start to do the math (with loan repayments, etc) you'll see that that salary is average considering the level of training.•••

So which is it? On the one hand you seem to imply, as you did in your earlier post, that the salary was sub-par, and then you go right on to say that "you'll see that the salary is average considering the level of training". Well, if it's average, it can't also be sub-par can it?

Another problem I have with the above statement is that "No other profession requires as much schooling and training". Really?! My boyfriend is a Physics Professor. He did 4 years undergrad and 5 years for his PhD (the average in his lab was 7 years) and then had to do 6 years postdoctoral training (payed even less than residents) before getting a junior faculty position where he still only earns a third of what you claim is paltry for a physician. He works just as many hours too. You know I don't think I have ever once heard him complain about it though...

I could go on, but whats the point? After all, I don't have an MD, so nothing I think or say can have any weight anyway.

So instead I'll just apologize to everyone reading this - including you. I am undoubtedly being a complete bitch, and I love reading SDN and shouldn't contribute 'negatively' in this way...but some posts just push my buttons...especially the ones that try to re-invent what their original post said, ones that discard any viewpoint but their own, ones that are way over defensive when they HAVE said something dumb (we all do - yes, including me) or ones that present inconsistent or illogical arguments.

have fun

 

[fourthwatch96822]

Originally posted by oldernotwiser:
•

So which is it? On the one hand you seem to imply, as you did in your earlier post, that the salary was sub-par, and then you go right on to say that "you'll see that the salary is average considering the level of training". Well, if it's average, it can't also be sub-par can it?

Another problem I have with the above statement is that "No other profession requires as much schooling and training". Really?! My boyfriend is a Physics Professor. He did 4 years undergrad and 5 years for his PhD (the average in his lab was 7 years) and then had to do 6 years postdoctoral training (payed even less than residents) before getting a junior faculty position where he still only earns a third of what you claim is paltry for a physician. He works just as many hours too. You know I don't think I have ever once heard him complain about it though...

I could go on, but whats the point? After all, I don't have an MD, so nothing I think or say can have any weight anyway.

So instead I'll just apologize to everyone reading this - including you. I am undoubtedly being a complete bitch, and I love reading SDN and shouldn't contribute 'negatively' in this way...but some posts just push my buttons...especially the ones that try to re-invent what their original post said, ones that discard any viewpoint but their own, ones that are way over defensive when they HAVE said something dumb (we all do - yes, including me) or ones that present inconsistent or illogical arguments.

have fun•••

I agree with you wholeheartedly.

 

[marleybfour]

Ted,

I understand what you are trying to say as I am a critical care nurse and work with/know hundreds of doctors. From what I have experienced, the large majority of them are not happy with their chosen profession. The concerns they have expressed to me are: the on-call hours, less compensation (per hours worked), bitchy patients, fear of malpractice, having no life, bitchy patients, HMO's and bitchy patients. I have yet to have a doctor tell me that going into medicine is a great idea. Most of them applaud my tenacity, but encourage me to stay a nurse.

I fear that many of these doctors were somewhat idealistic when they applied to medical school. They did not have a true sense of what was ahead of them. At least you do.

I also understand your comment about the salary. It is all relevent when you take into account the student loans, malpractice insurance costs...etc. For me, I am better off financially as a nurse, then I will be as a physician ( at least for a while.)


With all these negatives, I still want it.

 

[Tim Duncan]

Folks, go to your state medical school and save some money! If you can't get in, then moonlight during residency to tone down those loans!


Medicine, unlike many other fields, has no long term employment instability. Currently, there are IT workers who've been out of a job, for almost a year, being forced to take 30-60% paycuts and in different professions like admin assistant or UPS shipper. If a doctor can earn 150k/yr, consistently for 30 years without age discrimination, random layoffs, and potential underemployment, then she's doing well.

 

[nochaser]

hey nochaser...mind posting that website you mentioned regarding docs posting complaints..

Salman, it's from an AOL board:
aol://5863:126/mB:216521

If you can't access this, here's a cut&paste of one of the posts:


<<You most certainly may ask why. I'm not sure that I can give you a great answer though. I also ached to get into medical school. I wanted a good residency in surgery, and got one. However, I've been kidding myself since year one. Time flew by into my fourth year when I got into research. This gave me time to reflect. Is it the residency tha makes me unhappy? No, I
don't think residency at my program is bad. Is it all the hard work and time? No, hard work has never bothered me in the past. In fact, I feel that my best work is done under pressure.

My analysis of the situation is that I can see into the future. By understanding what my attendings are going through. Not one of them are happy doing what they do. All are immersed in insurance company battles, lawsuites which make them feel betrayed, family disputes over work. There is no time to stop and smell the roses...to realize how their lives and the lives of those around them are going. I find this with a lot of surgeons by talking
about it at meetings.

It's just not for me. I hope this helps.>>

 

[Whisker Barrel Cortex]

bald
Member
Member # 10305
posted January 14, 2002 12:28
"to comment on the "why be a physician today." i have some friends who have parents that are physicians who complain about the HMO/decreasing salaray thing. It brings tears to my eyes when i hear the hardships these doctors are suffering. One OB/GYN actually had to sell his mercedes to buy his new porsche. How he has the strength to serve people all day, so admirable."

You have to realize that unless these doctors you are speaking of graduated within the past 5-10 years, they have no where near the debt load that current medical graduates will have. I have worked at a family practice clinic where the nicest car driven by an attending is a honda accord, not a BMW, mercedes, or porche. I hope you realize that your the doctor in your OB/GYN example has stayed up countess nights delivering babies and has made a difference in their lives. They HAVE sacrificed a great deal of their own life for their patients, so let them have their mercedes, they probably don't have time to drive it anyway.

 

[fourthwatch96822]

Originally posted by imtiaz:
•Are you undermining my statement? You compared grad students to grad students. We are comparing MED students to grad students. I agree with you that it is stupid to talk about, and that the nature of the work involved is different in that medical students(who are not really grad students in the rigorous sense of the word, theyre professional school students) spend hours studying while grad students (the real ones) spend hours researching AND studying AND teaching AND grading papers. It doesn't compare, you dont know until you have been through it.

•••

oops I was trying to quote another poster. My mistake.

 

[fourthwatch96822]

Originally posted by bald:
•

11 pm? oh no.

the argument of med student vs other grad students is a stupid one. i know some computer science graduate students who dont work very hard. i know other graduate students who work very hard. im sure there are slackers and hard-workers in every program, and i fail to see the point of talking about it.

to comment on the "why be a physician today." i have some friends who have parents that are physicians who complain about the HMO/decreasing salaray thing. It brings tears to my eyes when i hear the hardships these doctors are suffering. One OB/GYN actually had to sell his mercedes to buy his new porsche. How he has the strength to serve people all day, so admirable.•••

There is no way in hell that a grad student in computer science can get away without working hard. I went to a state university and saw how intense and rigourous computer sci programs are at the undergrad level. Two year programs at a community college are also extremely intense. It takes a lot of logic and perserverence to finish writing so many programs at all levels.

Also, PHD programs are even more work than master level programs.

 

[Kevo]

all jobs suck. thats why they are jobs and thats why people take vactions from them. do anything for 25 years and it will get old. and... if these doctors hate it so bad then why don't they get out and do something else? it is obviously worth it to them or else they wouldn't do it.

the perfect job is a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. be content that you are doing something positive with your life. these doc's that complain about hours can slow down and work less. they just need to stand up to their colleagues and do it. sure they'll take a pay cut, but how important is their time? if it is worth the pay cut then they'll do it.

bottom line... noone i have ever met recommended that I do what they do. thats what wear and tear of 25 years in a career will do. and thats why people retire and like it.

 

[DocConnie]

Hi All,

In reading all of these posts, I have a few comments. I currently work in the pharmaceutical industry and earn approximately $100,000. I am 33 years old and work very hard. My family always says that I made a mistake by not going to medical school (although I plan on going in the next two years or so). I always tell them that I make as much money as a physician and have all my student loans paid years ago. I think many physicians are having a difficult time nowadays. I see many entering the pharmaceutical industry with starting salaries around $90,000. Here, there are no malpractice suits, no long hours, guaranteed vacation and time spent with the family.

Although this is their choice, I feel that if one really wants to become a doctor (such as I do), it doesn't matter how much money you make or how many hours you work, but if you are happy with what you do. I do earn a lot of money at my age but medicine is where I want to me and it took me years to realize that. Perhaps it takes all of us time to work and think about what we want in life and prioritize from there. I know that I will be happy when I become a doctor because it is all I ever wanted. Your first priority should be making yourself happy and the second is money.

 

[Elysium]

I really appreciate those of you who backed me up. First of all, I'm sorry to come across as bitch or nasty. I just get frustrated with the idea that all doctors are rolling in money and driving around in Porches. That may have been true in the '80's, but that's just not the case anymore. My father has several collegues that have gone Chapter 11 (declared bankruptcy) because they were trying to juggle their practice and pay their taxes. 37% of $200,000 = $74,000
I know we all pay taxes, but as independent contractors, independent physicians get hit pretty hard.
I do all the bookkeeping for my dad's office, and have worked in his office on and off for the last 15 years. The last time my dad took a vacation was in Feb. 2001 when he broke off the transverse process on his L1 and L2 vertebrae. He and mom would love to travel (anywhere) but he can't afford to take time off. I've seen more places than they have, by far. My dad just works, makes rounds at the hospital, and then does charts at home. He's not some free wheeling guy pissing money away.
My point is this: I just hope that people are going into medicine for the right reasons (as it seems like most of you are) and not to make a large salary. There's just too many strings attached.
P.S. Oldernotwiser, I never claimed your physics boyfriend is some slacker. I know grad students work their asses off (I have several good friends that are PhDs in Chemistry). But, the main difference is that Physics profs have a low likelyhood of getting sued, don't have to take calls from patients at 3:15am, don't take call on the weekends, don't make trips to the hospital in the middle of the night. You never stop being a doctor. Ever. Not out in a resturant, not in your car, not when you're asleep, not on vacation. I would argue that most Physics/Chem/CS grad students don't ever have that level of responsibility. They can leave their teaching, research, whatever at school.
Big Difference.

 

[fishtolive]

i won't start trouble but i will say this...do not be naive about numbers like 150k...we all know that money is not the driving force behind our decision but this is a sham if you understand any sort of economics...my uncle is in OB/G and is ready to get out (and he has one of the largest practices in new jersey)...he has coleagues that have already thrown in the towell and he was telling me that when guys came to him 13 years ago and wanted to get in his practice they would make 180k first year...he just picked up a new partner and ya know what he's starting at? 160k. Is it a decent living..you damn right!
But, insurance rates have just doubled all over the country (read the papers), the cost of living, especially in the NY metro area, is astronomical, and you still lose years of income potential in years of schooling and incurred debt. Now, how does his new guy make the big bucks with these factors, and let's face it, if anyone deseres it it's OBs...sux huh?

That said, I still want to be a doctor but I realize I will work harder than anyone else for good money...but I will never swing a baseball bat and make 18 mil a year...but if jeter ever gets in a car aaciident..i'll save his life. That's enough for me, but it still isn't fair!

 

[Smoke This]

Why do I want to be a doctor? So that I can more readily feed my OxyContin habit.

 

[tBw]

Originally posted by TEDillard03:
• I know grad students work their asses off (I have several good friends that are PhDs in Chemistry). But, the main difference is that Physics profs have a low likelyhood of getting sued, don't have to take calls from patients at 3:15am, don't take call on the weekends, don't make trips to the hospital in the middle of the night. You never stop being a doctor. Ever. Not out in a resturant, not in your car, not when you're asleep, not on vacation. I would argue that most Physics/Chem/CS grad students don't ever have that level of responsibility. They can leave their teaching, research, whatever at school.
Big Difference.•••

Well, I brought up other professionals to counter a particular statement you had made not to say they were identical opportunities. Your above points are well founded though and I totally agree.

Thanks for not taking my earlier disagreement personally. Good luck with becoming a doctor.

onwis

 

[MD Dreams]

This is a great post, and I'm dying to put my 2 cents in.

I believe that at the end, after all has been said and done, the fact remains that individuals who enter medicine for the correct reason, do so because it is their passion. It is what they love to do, it is their calling. There have been many times when I've wished I could choose a different path: get a comfortable job that pays well, have a family, pets, etc. and just enjoy life. But I can't! Medicine has a grip on me and it just won't let go. I am very well aware of all the sacrifices, the committments, and the risks of entering medicine (i.e. risking a family life). But I believe, after much contemplation, that the personal satisfaction of being a physician is great enough to make such sacrifices worthwile.

Life is filled with people who sacrifice many things to reach their passions. Look at Arnold (I won't/can't spell his last name, but I am talking about the body builder) as an example. Why would one individual sacrifice so much for one thing -- because his passion was to be the best at his sport. Or let's take the example of Navy Seals. Why do they go through such rigorous training and itch to place themselves in harms way? Because that's what they love! Arguably, that's what makes life exiting -- the will and the challenge to fulfill ones calling.

Sorry if I got kind of cheezy and philosophical, but sometimes I really think this way. It is during such times when I remember just how much I want to become and MD.

Peace!

 

[Trek]

I didn't want to add to this thread as I'd just get a bunch of flames because this whole thing just proves what i believe- that doctors innately think they're better than the rest of the population. But anyway, your thing about Arnold is wrong. Bodybuilding is about genetics. Arnold won his first Mr. World after 5 years of lifting. I know guys who have been lifting consistently for 10 that will NEVER look like arnold, even with as much, or more, passion for the sport. Cos they don't have the genetics. But the rest was coo --Trek

 

[fourthwatch96822]

Originally posted by TEDillard03:
•I really appreciate those of you who backed me up. First of all, I'm sorry to come across as bitch or nasty. I just get frustrated with the idea that all doctors are rolling in money and driving around in Porches. That may have been true in the '80's, but that's just not the case anymore. My father has several collegues that have gone Chapter 11 (declared bankruptcy) because they were trying to juggle their practice and pay their taxes. 37% of $200,000 = $74,000
I know we all pay taxes, but as independent contractors, independent physicians get hit pretty hard.
I do all the bookkeeping for my dad's office, and have worked in his office on and off for the last 15 years. The last time my dad took a vacation was in Feb. 2001 when he broke off the transverse process on his L1 and L2 vertebrae. He and mom would love to travel (anywhere) but he can't afford to take time off. I've seen more places than they have, by far. My dad just works, makes rounds at the hospital, and then does charts at home. He's not some free wheeling guy pissing money away.
My point is this: I just hope that people are going into medicine for the right reasons (as it seems like most of you are) and not to make a large salary. There's just too many strings attached.
P.S. Oldernotwiser, I never claimed your physics boyfriend is some slacker. I know grad students work their asses off (I have several good friends that are PhDs in Chemistry). But, the main difference is that Physics profs have a low likelyhood of getting sued, don't have to take calls from patients at 3:15am, don't take call on the weekends, don't make trips to the hospital in the middle of the night. You never stop being a doctor. Ever. Not out in a resturant, not in your car, not when you're asleep, not on vacation. I would argue that most Physics/Chem/CS grad students don't ever have that level of responsibility. They can leave their teaching, research, whatever at school.
Big Difference.•••

First of all, in order to teach one must prepare lessons. Often the lessons are prepared at home. Teaching takes a lot of outside time. Even HIGH SCHOOL TEACHES SPEND A LOT OF TIME OUTSIDE OF CLASS PREPARING LESSONS.

Research is many times continued outside of school hours. Now think about this: professors teach, research, etc, and grad students whom are trying to become doctorates have these responsibilities. And students have that wonderful dissertation to write along with exams. We are living in denial to think that the work stops at school for any of these people.

Secondly, it depends on what medical specialty we are talking about. I have a friend that is a psychiatrist who has a WONDERFUL LIFE. He DOES NOT take crisis calls at work or after hours!! He goes on vacation ALOT!!! He spends alot of time cruising with his family.

Again, one must walk a mile in ones shoes to know what one really goes through.

 

[imtiaz]

Not to mention you have little pre-meds sending you email and tracking you down at your lab/office asking questions all the time, arguing with you about their grade, going over your head to the professor who then yells at you for not "resolving" the situation less abrasively. It's pretty similar to the physican social dynamic. The above poster is very correct, I spend lots of time preparing lectures that half the idiots in the class don't pay attention to. Then I get questions on what I spent 40 minutes lecturing on. I can't blame them, I was a ***** once too. I'm not equating grad school with being a physician. But I do think grad school is at least equal to or maybe even a little more stressful than med school. You just have sooooo much crap to juggle. As always, everyone has their own experience with things, so it's not always true.

 

[spanky]

After talking with some of my classmates and reading some of these posts, it's really sad to see that people are entering medicine to become rich or gain respect. Money isn't everything. I left a lucrative career after ten years because it became monotonous, boring, and unchallenging. The bottom line is: if you don't have a passion for what you're doing, you will not be happy, no matter how much money you make. For those of you that have never had a career, remember that what you choose to do, you will be doing for the next 40 yrs so you better really love it!!!

 

[Brian20]

First of all i really wish people would save their personal pissing matches for private messages. Is it really necessary to post some of the garbage on this site....please just write privately.

I worked as a nurses aide for about a year. i got pissed on, **** on...and not just by the patients. Do i think i have an advantage over MOST (not all) undergrads going right into med school? Yes I do. I volunteered as an undergrad and i learned and saw pretty much nothing. you really need to immerse yourself in healthcare to really get the picture. I hated being an aide with a four year degree. but it was also one of the greatest things i have ever done for myself and my future patients. i was humbled and got a glimpse of the world from the point of view of the support and nursing staff. basically i learned not to be a prick doctor. nurses can make or break you....especially when you want to get those few hours of sleep.

I want to get into medicine because i want to help people and love biology and all that crap everyone says. but the biggest reason is that medicine gives me the opportunity to save myself. i feel an immense sense of waste in most things i do (research, constant book work, and pretty much every job i have had outside the hospital). I think the only time i dont feel a sense of waste is when i am talking to people about what is inside of them, be it physical or mental illness. in such instances i am using my mind, but also using my heart. I want them to get better not because i want to conquer or out smart some disease, but because i want them to smile and spend another healthy day with the ones they love. an opportunity to have a job like this, where i use both my heart and mind, is the only job i can imagine where i wouldnt feel that sense of waste.

it is not socially acceptable to truly talk to people. its not acceptable to speak from your heart and to let down your guard. medicine is my ploy to get people to do these things. for some reason, people TRULY talk to doctors. they spill their hearts out to doctors. this is why i am getting into medicine....it is the most intimate of professions.

 

[Elysium]

I don't think anyone is trying to get into a pissing match or trying to "flame" each other. I'm sorry if I came across overly strong and the force of my rhetoric may have been misplaced in this forum. My main point is that I am 28, have made a major career change (from film making to medicine!), and have seen medicine in the 21st century first hand (or rather second hand). I see an inordinant amount of 19 and 20 year old science students (some of them damn bright) who find all this science stuff easy and think that being a doctor is a good way to earn awesome money and boss people (nurses, etc) around. Any good doctor will tell you that they can't do a damn thing without their nurses. But there will always be people that have the misconception that medicine is the road to living the high life. Which is just not true. Discussions like this hopefully will cause everyone (me, you...) to reaffirm why you want to get on this merry-go-round. Once money is pushed aside, you really start getting down to what's important (like the true patient communication Brian20 alluded to).
A lot of people work hard (from professors to laborers) and we should respect everyone for what they give to make this society work.
Again, I haven't meant to offend, only to present a different angle to an important discussion.