Income of podiatrist right after finishing residency???

[Dr. Foot]

Hello
I was just wondering how much a podiatrist makes right after finishing a solid 3 years residency program. How to search for podiatry jobs?
thanks

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[G0dFather]

LOL... it varies but you shouldn't be getting less than 110k ... and jobs are found through networking while your in residency.

 

[GetnMyFtNtheDor]

expect 60k-80k your first year out. That's the average. Sometimes, incentives can be added that would make it equal $110k. In special cases, some people receive the 150k or more; but that's rare.

 

[ohhyourgod]

it has been discussed extensively here

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=599576

 

[PADPM]

This is beating a dead horse. I've said it over and over and over again. Do NOT expect to be offered $150-200k. Believe me, those cases are the exceptions and not the rule.

For every case you can tell me about that is making that amount of money (and I'd like to see the contract) I can show you a recent grad making $50-60,000 who does NOT live in the "boonies".

Don't keep telling me what an insult that is, or what you deserve, etc., etc., I'm simply telling you the FACTS. I'm been doing this for 23 years, and I'm fully aware of what's going on in the entire country. I'm part of one of the largest groups in the country, I've been a residency director, I've been involved with the ABPS exam, I've been involved with the APMA, etc., so I know my facts, despite your anecdotal cases.

Yes, at the present time there are some grads making good money. Most of those offers are coming from orthopedic groups. Is it because orthopedic groups suddenly love DPM's????

NO. It's because if these orthopedic groups hired an orthopedic surgeon with a fellowship/specialty in foot/ankle surgery, they would have to start that new doc with a minimum of $250-300,000. If they hire a 3 year trained DPM, they can start that doc with $110, 120, 130, etc, and get the same quality at a fraction of the price. And as a matter of fact, the new DPM grad will be thrilled with that income.

But most DPM's that are hiring DPM's can simply not afford those numbers and are offering significantly less as a starting salary. That doesn't mean you can't EVENTUALLY earn a decent income, but your initial salary may not be high.

So my answer to the original question is that a REALISTIC expectation for the MAJORITY of grads would be to expect between $65,000-$90,000 as your INITIAL salary, not including "perks".

 

[rom3o]

I'm surprised at the number of pre-pods even commenting in this thread and threads similar to these. No offense, but most of you have probably never held anything more than a summer job.

I respect what PADPM has to say, so stop bashing him, for all you know he may become fed up and decide to leave the pod forums, then they'll become even more dead than they already are. The last thing we need to lose are the opinions and views of someone who is experienced and has been doing this for 23 years -- as long as many of you, and I've been alive!

So pre-pods, please, stop throwing around numbers like you actually know what you're talking about and let some of the people who have actually been through the process and are there now give their two cents.

 

[GetnMyFtNtheDor]

rom30,
I understand where you are coming from. Although I'm a prepod, I'm fortunate enough to have an immediate family member who is a practicing podiatrist. I'm only here to spread realistic knowledge. I'm not here to debate, but I believe my initial post falls in line with what PADPM posted.

 

[rom3o]

My reply wasn't directed at your post and I appreciate your efforts to spread realistic knowledge.

I've noticed that there seems to be a handful of posters that are a bit on the immature side and seem to be just throwing random "facts" around. These posters also seem to be trying to get a rise out of other people, and also make useless posts full of nonsense. I'll leave it at that.

 

[PADPM]

rom3o,

Thanks for your comments, but when reading these posts, I simply "consider the source".

You are correct. There are a lot of amazingly immature members on this site that are in for an extremely rude awakening in the very near future. The vast majority of these members are "pre-podiatry", which means they still haven't even STARTED their medical training.

These members still have to gain acceptance into podiatric medical school, make it through 4 years, then obtain a decent residency, THEN make it through that residency......etc., etc., etc.

Judging my the immaturity level, total lack of disrespect and attitude that I've seen exhibited on the forum by some of the members, I can ASSURE you that many of them will never make it through the training and/or have a successful career in this profession.

I've "been there, done that" and have been exposed to a LOT of different personalities over the years, and I know who "has the goods" and who doesn't....it's not hard to make that differentiation.

 

[phillypd]

 

[diabeticfootdr]

Hello
I was just wondering how much a podiatrist makes right after finishing a solid 3 years residency program. How to search for podiatry jobs?
thanks

I disagree with PADPM on this issue.

You should not take less than $100,000 your first year out of residency. None of my friends graduating from programs across the country in varying circumstances took less than $100k.

There will be people that offer you $50-60k. You should have enough self respect to say NO and counter with a more reasonable offer, or find another job that will pay you what you're worth.

 

[PADPM]

diabeticfootdr,

You can disagree all you'd like. Simply check out the APMA stats and speak with a true cross section of graduating residents across the entire country, not just a dozen of your contacts or friends.

Additionally, there is no where in any of my posts where I EVER stated that anyone should accept any particular salary if he/she feels it is inappropriate. I simply stated that in the present economic environment, realistically the majority of grads are being offered initial contracts in the dollar range I previously mentioned.

Those working for hospitals/institutions or those working for orthopedic groups will be starting with higher salaries. Those working for podiatric groups or other podiatrists will generally start with a lower salary and of course those starting from scratch will take quite a while to see any positive cash flow.

Other factors also must be added into the base salary. Also added to that expense is the cost of malpractice, vacation, CME credits, professional dues and often other perks that begin to add up substantially.

And as stated many times in the past, those that may start out with a lower salary often "catch up" relatively quickly after they prove themselves and begin bringing money into the practice.

What someone thinks they are worth and what the market bears are two completely different animals. I personally think I'm worth twice what I make, but that doesn't make me any wealthier.

 

[templepodnc]

Just to try and get a try gauge of this debate I wanted to ask a few questions.

PADPM-
Are you saying it is realistic to expect a base salary of say 70-90k? And then when you tack on vacation, malpractice, production bonuses, etc. you could potentially be up in the 6 figures?

Or are you saying after everything is factored in, it would equal 70-90k?

Diabeticfootdr-

Are you saying people you know are accepting offers of 6 figures plus before any benefits are factored or or after?

I feel like both of you may be saying the same thing yet talking about it from 2 different viewpoints.

 

[diabeticfootdr]

diabeticfootdr,

You can disagree all you'd like. Simply check out the APMA stats and speak with a true cross section of graduating residents across the entire country, not just a dozen of your contacts or friends.

Additionally, there is no where in any of my posts where I EVER stated that anyone should accept any particular salary if he/she feels it is inappropriate. I simply stated that in the present economic environment, realistically the majority of grads are being offered initial contracts in the dollar range I previously mentioned.

Those working for hospitals/institutions or those working for orthopedic groups will be starting with higher salaries. Those working for podiatric groups or other podiatrists will generally start with a lower salary and of course those starting from scratch will take quite a while to see any positive cash flow.

Other factors also must be added into the base salary. Also added to that expense is the cost of malpractice, vacation, CME credits, professional dues and often other perks that begin to add up substantially.

And as stated many times in the past, those that may start out with a lower salary often "catch up" relatively quickly after they prove themselves and begin bringing money into the practice.

What someone thinks they are worth and what the market bears are two completely different animals. I personally think I'm worth twice what I make, but that doesn't make me any wealthier.

I have posted MGMA average data and APMA average data before. You and I have our disagreements on this issue. While, I don't know all my friends/contacts salaries or earnings, I can tell you of those that have disclosed to me - none have made less than $100,000 in salary (benefits in addition).

You seem to always speak from what an associate would make. I always speak from what a doctor entering hospital or ortho/multi group practice. Why anyone would submit themselves to the indentured servitude of an associateship is beyond me. I, like you, am an attending and I counsel students and residents. I have advised everyone against associateships for these reasons and the attitudes that older attendings have - the eat your young attitude. In fact, I don't know anyone that has lasted in a true associateship for many years. Because after a while, the young doctor grows tired of being taken advantage of.

No one can attest to what the actual average starting salary is - because they're all self reported through APMA surveys. However, the MGMA data is supplied by medical group administrators and represents a more accurate salary of doctors in those situations.

But what I can advise, is if you're not good at negotiation, hire a lawyer. You should shoot for a 6 figure salary. They are not rare. Lower salaries are probably more common in those that accept them without negotiation.

 

[PADPM]

I think the "DPM's eat their young" myth is an overstated legend that is no more unique to podiatry than it is to any other profession.

I am aware of many associates that have gone on to very rewarding careers that developed into partnerships in our profession. However, just as in any negative situation, all we ever seem to hear about are the failures. We rarely hear about the success stories.

How often in practice do patients come in telling you about the horror stories they have heard regarding a specific surgical procedure??? They never tell you about the success stories, simply because the patients that are happy go about their business. It's the same in podiatry. The associates that go on to a happy career or partnership do so quietly. Whereas those that "fail" are the stories we all hear about.

It's very easy to sit back and be an arm-chair quarterback and tell people to negotiate, involve an attorney, etc., to assure that they earn the starting salary they "deserve".

That's great in an ideal world, but the fact remains that not every graduate is going to have the good fortune of having an orthopedic group or hospital offer them a job. Similarly, not every job being offered is willing to "negotiate" a salary. On the contrary, most salary offers are usually not negotiable. Some of the "perks" such as vacation time, CME, car allowances, etc., MAY be negotiable, but not very often.

Economic times are tough at the present time, malpractice premiums are high and insurance reimbursements are low. Office/business overheads are very high and those in private practice are feeling the "crunch".

Patients are canceling appointments because they can't afford their co-pays in some circumstances!! So many job offers may not be as lucrative for new graduates.

I resent your statement that all associates are treated with "indentured servitude". Our practice treats our associates no different than our partners with the exception of the income and vacation time.

Our partners work the same amount of hours, perform the same functions and are expected to do everything our associates do on a daily basis without exception. We provide our associates an exceptional opportunity to make an excellent living while not having the responsibility or burden of running their own practices. They learn a great deal, are treated with respect, treat a wide variety of pathology, are given unlimited opportunity, are not given "quotas" and are not "supervised". There is a check waiting for them EVERY week and we listen to their concerns and value their input.

On the other hand, they could have chosen to have gone out on their own and taken several years to see the number of patients they presently treat and/or earn a portion of the income they presently earn.

And you must also remember that not all DPM's have the opportunity to obtain a quality residency AND do a fellowship, therefore not all graduating DPM's can simply "pick and choose" as you suggest.

The orthopedic and hospital opportunities are not available to all graduates, and not all the remaining grads seeking jobs will realistically be able to "negotiate" a contract. And for those that decide to become an associate in an existing practice, I can PERSONALLY assure you that there are plenty of practices where you can be treated with respect and earn a good living with a promising future. You don't have to have low self esteem to take an associate position. You simply have to do your homework prior to accepting that position.

 

[diabeticfootdr]

As I said before, you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree on this point. I respect your opinion and think you bring a lot to these discussions, but the great thing about SDN is that there are many opinions and readers can take 'em or leave 'em.

It's very easy to sit back and be an arm-chair quarterback and tell people to negotiate, involve an attorney, etc., to assure that they earn the starting salary they "deserve".

It's not being an armchair quarterback. The biggest mistake young doctors make is not involving an attorney, especially for your first job/contract. Specifically find one that specializes in healthcare contracts. A phrase in a contract that may seem benign to you, may come around to bite you in the ***** in the future.

I resent your statement that all associates are treated with "indentured servitude". Our practice treats our associates no different than our partners with the exception of the income and vacation time.

I did look up indentured servitude from Wikipedia and found:
"An indentured servant is a form of debt bondage worker. The laborer is under contract of an employer for usually three to seven years, in exchange for their transportation, food, drink, clothing, lodging and other necessities. Unlike a slave, an indentured servant is required to work only for a limited term specified in a signed contract."

I'm not saying it is exactly indentured servitude, but it is like it. To say that they're treated exactly the same except income and vacation .... that could be a big difference and meet the above definition.

I'm sure there are associateship opportunities that are rewarding, but I have only heard complaints. And then when the young doc wants out, there are non-compete clauses, ill will, and many times legal action or the threat thereof.

It is irresponsible to pay an associate $50-$60k when they have a mountain of debt (which you didn't have) and can barely afford to live. Times have changed.

The orthopedic and hospital opportunities are not available to all graduates, and not all the remaining grads seeking jobs will realistically be able to "negotiate" a contract.

I agree, but most of the time - you make your own opportunities. One of my favorite quotes is by George Bernard Shaw: "Life isn't about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself."

You can't expect to sit at home and have the perfect job fall in your lap. You have to create this job for yourself. Contact ortho groups, contact hospitals, show your worth to the team. Show them median salary figures for DPMs and what average wRVU generation would be.

Create yourself.

 

[PADPM]

Come on Dr. Rogers, re-read the definition again that you wrote regarding an indentured servant and please don't insult me and compare that to the way our group treats our associates. Are you really attempting to make a valid analogy with our groups handling of associates with that definition of "indentured servant" simply because our partners make a higher income and have longer vacations?

Are you kidding me? Does the FACT that the partners have been in the practice for many, many years longer, have invested huge amounts of money in the practice have any significance in the difference in their incomes and vacation times???

You've made some very valid points, but please don't insult me or yourself with quoting a definition from Wikepedia (which certainly isn't the most reliable source) and then use that definition as a comparison to the way we treat our associates. An indentured servant works for necessities to live, such as transportation, food, clothing, etc. Our associates, NOT servants are PAID a very fair salary that they choose to accept at their own free will. They are also given an opportunity to increase that salary as they increase their production. We make an offer, and they are given the opportunity to accept that offer of MONEY, not "necessities" of living. Built in to that offer are other benefits, in addition to a possible strong future.

I don't believe anyone rational would consider that indentured servitude in any way, shape or form.

Yes, it's obvious that we will definitely agree to disagree on this issue, but at the same time let's practice a little civility and refrain from slinging insults.

If you want to get down and dirty, just let me know and I'll be happy to oblige.

 

[diabeticfootdr]

Come on Dr. Rogers, re-read the definition again that you wrote regarding an indentured servant and please don't insult me and compare that to the way our group treats our associates. Are you really attempting to make a valid analogy with our groups handling of associates with that definition of "indentured servant" simply because our partners make a higher income and have longer vacations?

Are you kidding me? Does the FACT that the partners have been in the practice for many, many years longer, have invested huge amounts of money in the practice have any significance in the difference in their incomes and vacation times???

You've made some very valid points, but please don't insult me or yourself with quoting a definition from Wikepedia (which certainly isn't the most reliable source) and then use that definition as a comparison to the way we treat our associates. An indentured servant works for necessities to live, such as transportation, food, clothing, etc. Our associates, NOT servants are PAID a very fair salary that they choose to accept at their own free will. They are also given an opportunity to increase that salary as they increase their production. We make an offer, and they are given the opportunity to accept that offer of MONEY, not "necessities" of living. Built in to that offer are other benefits, in addition to a possible strong future.

I don't believe anyone rational would consider that indentured servitude in any way, shape or form.

Yes, it's obvious that we will definitely agree to disagree on this issue, but at the same time let's practice a little civility and refrain from slinging insults.

If you want to get down and dirty, just let me know and I'll be happy to oblige.

You're getting insulted from a blog argument. There's no reason to. Everyone is free to express their opinions.

I said it was 'like' indentured servitude. Indentured servants also agree by free will to partake in the contract.

How can you justify paying an associate 50-60K per year when they have $200k in student loan debt, probably have a family, a mortgage, a car payment, etc. You can barely live on that money, therefore you can only afford to buy your necessities (food, clothing, shelter, transportation). So, while you aren't providing that directly for your associates (like the true definition of indentured servitude), you pay them a low salary so that's all they can afford.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servant

As I said before. The world has changed. Those types of arrangements will be getting less frequent.

You vigorously defend the practice of associateships, but you may be biased in your defense, because you hire associates. Therefore, the more informed a potential associate is, and the more they feel like they 'deserve' a reasonable salary, the less profitable your practice is.

I expressed my opinion, you expressed yours. There is no need for threats of physical violence. Let's leave it at that.

 

[PADPM]

#1 There was never a threat of "physical violence".

#2 You can't seem to get off the misconception that I PERSONALLY believe that it's OK for an associate to make $50,000 or $60,000 upon graduation, or that somehow I am responsible, or my group is responsible for this "atrocity".

#3 You have absolutely NO IDEA what our group pays our new associates, yes you have NO IDEA, so please stop making that assumption.

#4 I have never "vigorously" defended associateships, I simply stated that despite your obvious bias against them, they are not always the nightmare your describe.

#5 Once again, despite your "assumption" we do NOT hire associates at a low salary and brainwash them so it will help our bottom line. On the contrary, an unhappy and underpaid associate will do nothing to help our bottom line. A well paid associate that is treated well and knows that he/she will be rewarded well with increased production is a win/win situation for both parties. It increases the associates income and increases the income of the practice. What we DO NOT encourage is over-utilization.....we do not want our associates increasing their incomes by performing unnecessary procedures.

#6 However, as generous as I would like to be, I simply can not "hand out" increased salaries simply because new grads have increased debt. I also have increased debt. My utilities have not decreased, my insurance premiums have not decreased, my staff salaries have not decreased, my office supply bills have not decreased, my orthotic lab fees have not decreased, my workmen's comp insurance bills have not decreased, my office liability premiums have not decreased, my rent/mortgage payments have not decreased, my equipment costs/leases have not decreased, my expense for my new EMR for all the doctors in my practice is astronomical, the APMA dues for all the doctors in our practice has not decreased, the ABPS dues have not decreased, the ACFAS dues have not decreased, the hospital dues have not decreased, etc., etc. So, although I certainly feel sorry for the new grads, my practice can not be responsible solely for the debt they have incurred or for the present economic environment. We pay the new hire fairly, and when he/she begins to produce for the practice, his/her salary increases accordingly.

#7 In my opinion, you are slightly out of touch, since you are under the umbrella and protection of a hospital contract. As I've stated in previous posts, I SINCERELY respect what you've done and accomplished, but you are extremely fortunate. Although I'm confident that you have a plethora of responsiblity and work extremely long hours, you collect a handsome paycheck, without worrying about the bills. Your employer is a large institution rather than a "bunch of DPM's" or orthopods, you don't ever have to pay the bills, you don't have staff to hire, and you are worlds away from the financial stresses of private practice. Therefore, it's very easy to criticize and tell the doctor in private practice what SHOULD be done.

#8 I've NEVER advocated that anyone should sign a lowball contract or offer. I simply stated that from the feedback I've obtained from former students, externs and residents, the numbers I've quoted are what I believe are the realistic numbers being offered. I never stated I advocated or agreed with those numbers, nor did I ever state what number we offer our associates.

#9 I can tell you that over the past several years, the only associates that have left our practice have left for geographic reasons or to start a family. None have left on bad terms or for financial reasons. None.

 

[jonwill]

I think it all depends. If you're signing with a small podiatry group, you're not going to get a huge salary in most cases which I believe is understandable. They usually just don't have the cash flow and a new pod involves risk. I have no problem starting at 60-70K as a BASE salary as long as they're not trying to screw me. In other words, after I make 2.5 times my salary, I'd better be making 40%. I have no respect for those trying to "make money" off of a new grad. The nice thing about this day and age is that there are so many other options. Ortho groups, multispecialty groups, hospitals, etc. These groups offer much bigger contracts (but often with less incentives) because they have the cash to do so. PADPM, you're obviously talking from experience but these offers are much more common than you're giving credit for. In my experience, by no means are they an exception to the rule.

As I'm now seeking employment, my experience is that the small-medium pod groups are offering a lower base with higher incentives (unless they are trying to enslave you) and the other groups often offer a much higher salary with less incentives.

I'll let everyone know how the job hunt goes!

 

[msa786]

Let's say one decides after residency to work in a pod group + hospital part-time + nursing home or homecare part time. Wouldn't their combined base salary be higher? I know of several pods that do this and they seem to be doing great.

 

[NatCh]

Let's say one decides after residency to work in a pod group + hospital part-time + nursing home or homecare part time. Wouldn't their combined base salary be higher? I know of several pods that do this and they seem to be doing great.

Yes, one would make more by working more. Traditionally podiatrists have spent a day or two doing shneidoplasties (trimming nails) at nursing homes to supplement income when first getting started. Some Associate employment contracts forbid practicing podiatry apart from that which they do for the employer (i.e., you can work at nursing homes as long as your employer gets a cut of the earnings), so read your contract carefully.

If you do consider working for a podiatrist in the traditional Associate relationship, then I would strongly consider what you would plan to do if the arrangement were to become unsuitable. I think you have a 50:50 chance of it succeeding, which is pretty poor. Is there a Covenant Not to Compete? What's the radius? What's the duration? Will your spouse also have a career that would need to uproot? Is there a loophole or escape clause in the contract that would permit you to remain in town and continue working? Can you buy your way out of the non-compete?

You have to look 5 years down the road. Will you be able to afford buy-in for Partnership? Would you be happy not Partnering but instead collecting a paycheck indefinitely? Will the employer permit you to work as an employee indefinitely, or do they mandate buy-in or departure?

 

[PADPM]

jonwill and NatCH make some excellent points.

jonwill, maybe you are correct and the job opportunities with orthopedic groups and hospitals are greater than I believe, but that hasn't been the feedback I have received by the grads I have spoke with recently.

I would be very happy to be wrong in this case.

I also believe that NatCH has explained the situation very well, and when entering ANY agreement, you must consider the pros and cons and think a few years down the line as he recommended.

And although diabeticfootdr made an excellent recommendation regarding hiring a health care attorney to review any potential contract or aid in negotiation, for a young grad who is already financially strapped, this can be an EXRTREMELY expensive proposition. Some of these attorneys can charge at least $350 or $450 per hour if not more, and their bills can run up very quickly. So, the idea is excellent but something very few grads can afford financially.

 

[diabeticfootdr]

jonwill and NatCH make some excellent points.

jonwill, maybe you are correct and the job opportunities with orthopedic groups and hospitals are greater than I believe, but that hasn't been the feedback I have received by the grads I have spoke with recently.

I would be very happy to be wrong in this case.

I also believe that NatCH has explained the situation very well, and when entering ANY agreement, you must consider the pros and cons and think a few years down the line as he recommended.

And although diabeticfootdr made an excellent recommendation regarding hiring a health care attorney to review any potential contract or aid in negotiation, for a young grad who is already financially strapped, this can be an EXRTREMELY expensive proposition. Some of these attorneys can charge at least $350 or $450 per hour if not more, and their bills can run up very quickly. So, the idea is excellent but something very few grads can afford financially.

I agree attorney's fees can be expensive. I am lucky. My wife is an attorney.

A close friend of mine was an associate and had to buy himself out of a non-compete for $80,000 because of irreconcilable differences after 1 and 1/2 years of work.

I would argue that you can't afford not to hire an attorney.

 

[NatCh]

I agree attorney's fees can be expensive. I am lucky. My wife is an attorney.

A close friend of mine was an associate and had to buy himself out of a non-compete for $80,000 because of irreconcilable differences after 1 and 1/2 years of work.

I would argue that you can't afford not to hire an attorney.

One would be crazy to not have an Attorney review the contract. Call and ask a few Attorneys how much they bill for a contract review, as fees can range widely. A contract review is where they simply read what you have and give their opinion and answer questions you may have about it. They don't have to write anything new, so it's not that expensive. I paid $150, which is pretty darned reasonable if you ask me especially considering how much this decision will affect you.

Also realize that not all employment contracts clauses are set in stone. You may be considering negotiating the salary but you should also consider negotiating the terms of employment. If there's a non-compete you can ask the potential employer to modify the wording so it's not too one-sided. I am guessing that small groups are more likely to negotiate than large groups are. Of all the paragraphs in a contract I think the non-compete potentially has more impact on your life than anything else.

 

[phillypd]

Hmmmm. interesting

 

[PADPM]

ThetaChiNAU1856,

First of all, show some respect..."man".

Secondly, I'm not sure why I'm even wasting my time responding to your disrespectful post, but I'll explain for those they may benefit.

No one is "forced" to sign any contract for any podiatry group or sign for any specific dollar amount. Therefore, if any graduate signs a contract for a low number, it's no one's fault but the person signing the contract. No one is placing a gun to anyone's head.

As stated numerous times, I know of very few DPM groups that can compete financially with orthopedic groups or hospitals when it comes to offering starting salaries. As I've also stated in the past, please don't think that the orthopedic groups are our best friends and are loving DPM's.

They are simply hiring well trained DPMs at a nice starting salary to SAVE money. Hiring a fellowship trained orthopedic foot/ankle surgeon would cost them at least $250,000-$300,000 a year.

When a DPM group hires a new grad, it is a risk and can cost them money. If they pay a new hire $100,000 salary, they also have to pay malpractice, plus APMA due, plus ACFAS dues, plus ABPS dues, plus CME credits, hospital dues, plus a lot of other expenses. That adds up to a lot of money BEFORE the new doctor even sees ONE patient or earns ONE penny for the practice.

And remember, the practice doesn't hire a new doctor just out of kindness. It is a business decision to enhance the practice and to increase the revenue of the practice, not to lose money. So in reality, after all is said and done, that $100,000 salary with perks comes out to about $150,000 in expenses for the practice. That means that the new doctor must generate about $300,000 for the practice to break even, considering overhead is at least 50%.

So when I state the new doctor has to "prove themself", I mean that he/she has to build the practice, prove to the practice that he/she will work hard, be accepted by the patients, provide quality and ethical care, etc., in order to allow him/her to not only make his/her starting salary but to increase his/her salary. We provide the facility, tools, patients, etc., but the doctor still has to provide the skills and care to build upon what WE provide. He/she has to "prove themself" and the rewards will follow.

 

[UW66]

This has been an fantastic discussion. Lots of us reading this are coming away with some very valuable tidbits. Tidbits that we might not pickup during the course of podschool/residency. The wide spectrum of opinions you Doc's share with us are really eye-openers. Thanks so much for being so active on SDN!

........great contribution by theta as usual. Way to piss all over the guys that are here trying to help us out.

 

[PADPM]

UW66,

Well stated. It's nice to see that you apparently "get it".

 

[UW66]

I dont have a problem Theta. You aren't a problem, you're a nuisance. There isnt another person who browses this forum thatd disagree with me.

and everytime you of all people tell other people to grow up, stop acting childish, or call the doctors on our forum bro after using the word seriously at the end of a sentence, baby jesus cries.


chin up.

 

[feets22]

This thread is getting pretty hostile. Seriously, if you want to have the best chance to make the big money when you get out you should try and finish towards the top of your class, try and learn everything you can in the clinic, and then land a top residency program. I would say the student that just sneaks by the whole way through and then finishes one of the lower end residencies would probably have a little more to prove and might find himself/herself taking one of those 60k offers. I realize that student loan debt is a huge issue that turns these threads into yelling matches, but in all actuality the default rate for podiatrists is very low. In the end, if your not going to be happy as a podiatrist making 60k then your probably not going to be much happier as a podiatrist making 150k.

diabeticftdr,
I know this is off topic but how was your experience doing a residency in the state of NY. Does the poor scope of practice limit your training or were you able to see and treat the volume of cases that you wanted?

Thanks

 

[diabeticfootdr]

diabeticftdr,
I know this is off topic but how was your experience doing a residency in the state of NY. Does the poor scope of practice limit your training or were you able to see and treat the volume of cases that you wanted?

Thanks

It really depends on the program. If you have a ortho surgeon who is friendly to the program an allows the residents to scrub with them, then yes - you can get just as good training as you can anywhere else. If not, then you might miss out on some good ankle cases.

We had a plastic surgeon who liked to do external fixation. We did the Charcot reconstructions with him and our pod attending. It was a nice team and we learned how to do some good flaps in the foot.

 

[Dr. Foot]

Thx all for the valuable info that was given by both diabeticfootdoc and Padpm.

I started reading on SDN forums back in 2005 where i found that most of the forums starts with an interesting topic then it deviate to non-sense personal issue that is really useless. No one benefit from two people bashing each other nor anybody got time to read BS, i believe that we are on these forums to get some insight of what other people have experienced. We can benefit from someone who strongly believe that a new grad should be taking $60,000 and someone else who believe that a new grad should be taking $110,00. Both got really good points to back them up.

thx again.

 

[PADPM]

"Theta"...

Sorry "bro", but I take time out of a busy practice, similar to diabeticfootdr and volunteer my time in an effort to provide some experienced input for the younger members of this forum.

I have "volunteered" my time for years as a residency director, where I did not accept any remuneration (I donated it back to the program), and volunteered my time in various offices for local and state APMA organizations and volunteered my time as an ABPS examiner and volunteered my time as a mentor. I've always opened my doors to any student or potential student that wanted to shadow me or one of my partners.

So, when I come on this forum to speak honestly about my experiences, the last thing I need is someone with NO experience in THIS field calling me "man" and "bro" with no respect.

And it makes no difference that you qualified your comments with "no offense". That's analagous to telling someone, "no offense, but you're really fat and ugly". You can't simply erase insults and disrespect by inserting the words "no offense" in front.

Finally, you keep bringing up the point about why anyone would work for a DPM group and have to "prove themself" when they can simply work for an ortho group and make the big bucks right out of the gate.

Well, if you've read my posts carefully, I believe I've answered that question. But I'll answer it again. Unfortunately, as you will probably see in the future, there simply are not enough positions for EVERYONE that graduates to "pick and choose". That's the harsh reality. Not every graduate of a residency program is going to be offered a high paying position with a hospital or ortho group. There IS a saturation point.

And my point is/was that IF that happens and a graduate does end up accepting a position with a DPM group it does NOT have to be all doom and gloom. Although the starting salary may not be on par, it has the potential to even out relatively quickly, but as in any profession it takes hard work and dedication. It may not be "handed" to you initially, and that's what I mean by "proving yourself". That is true with every profession I know and every aspect of life.

Hard work and dedication pay. Period. But first and foremost is honesty and quality care and the rest will follow.

ADD: And finally, remember that I NEVER stated any grad should accept a low salary, I simply stated that those salaries are a reality.

 

[G0dFather]

Well, if you've read my posts carefully, I believe I've answered that question. But I'll answer it again. Unfortunately, as you will probably see in the future, there simply are not enough positions for EVERYONE that graduates to "pick and choose". That's the harsh reality. Not every graduate of a residency program is going to be offered a high paying position with a hospital or ortho group. There IS a saturation point.

And my point is/was that IF that happens and a graduate does end up accepting a position with a DPM group it does NOT have to be all doom and gloom. Although the starting salary may not be on par, it has the potential to even out relatively quickly, but as in any profession it takes hard work and dedication. It may not be "handed" to you initially, and that's what I mean by "proving yourself". That is true with every profession I know and every aspect of life.

Hard work and dedication pay. Period. But first and foremost is honesty and quality care and the rest will follow.

ADD: And finally, remember that I NEVER stated any grad should accept a low salary, I simply stated that those salaries are a reality.

This is the highlight of the entire thread and the take home message... i knew this is what you meant from the start ... you were trying to address everyone with all kinds of capabilities. Excellent posting doctors!

 

[Aznfarmerboi]

bro and man are friendly terms that friends use, so that was not disrespectful.

meant no disrespect, don't take so much to heart. I was just talkin sorry it offended you but on a forum i dont feel it appropriate to use formalities. This is behind a computer and not face to face so again sorry if you were offended guy but I don't know how else to make it clearer to you that I talk to people on here as if you are outside of work and not in a place were only using "sir" would be appropriate.

furthermore, I agree that nobody HAS to sign you are right, all I am saying was that suggesting that what one should expect is a poor salary and one should be happy with 80K after going 200+ in debt for undergrad and grad along with what podiatrists do is ludacris, simply put.

Like I have said 100000 times everyone needs to relax, there is nothing wrong with voiceing ones opinions and people shouldnt be so offended by them because they are just that, opiinons

so for the record, 99% of your posts are useful, so thanks for that man but just because you say a couple things that I disagree with doesnt make it so that you need to freak out and yell (lol dont know you if CAN over the computer what you get what I mean) at someone k? chill

Bros and man are not professional terms however. This will be something that you will learn hopefully once you enter podiatry school.

 

[rom3o]

Well let's just hope, for your sake, that you never meet any of the members on this forum face-to-face. Personally, I would be embarassed to meet anyone on these forums if I wrote/addressed people the way you do.

No offense, bro.

 

[244869]

Theta...if someone does not want to be called "bro" or "man" then don't call them that. Everyone else who does not want to be called "bro" or "man"...mention it but please don't attack someones professionalism for it...unless of course they continue.

So now can we all stop going off topic!

 

[diabeticfootdr]

of course they aren't professional terms! are we not allowed to be friend-like and amicable without formal titles on this thing? Why do people fail to realize that this is an online forum, not a dr Q and A if one is in person then address respectively and appropriately but this is an online blog for all types related to podiatry. so let's not get bogged down by egos, I don't care if you are a dr or a garbageman you are still "man" "woman" "bro" "bud" or whatever term you choose. I have said it again and again people relax its a forum just have fun and try to get info.

sheesh

Unfortunately, the problem with these blogs is that hidden by anonymity of the internet, one can show discourteousness and disrespect that would get you reprimanded in academia or a hospital setting.

PADPM is an attending, educator, and former residency director with 30 years of experience. While I think it is okay to disagree with someone, it is not okay to be disrespectful, especially as a pre-pod or student.

Your job as a student is to learn. You will learn from people who's opinions you agree with and many who's opinions you disagree with. You need to take it all in, let it shape how you make your opinion.

If anonymous students defame posters who are attendings with experience, they will no longer post, because it's not worth it.

So, if you'd like to see fruitful discussion, it's best to reply with a simple, "Why is that?" or "I disagree with you", and leave it at that.

Just a bit of friendly advice to all the students/pre-pods who find these fora useful.

 

[PADPM]

diabeticfootdr,

Thank you for your support. However, I haven't been around quite as long as you give me credit for.....I've only been in practice for about 23 years!!

"Theta" simply doesn't understand that despite this being an open forum, there are still appropriate and inappropriate times to use the terms "bro" and "man", and the last thing I need is for a pre-pod student to tell me to "chill".

I don't need anyone in his position to tell me how to conduct myself.

You are correct, and this is an "anonymous" forum, and I would sincerely like to post using my real name/identity but my partners frown upon that idea and I have to respect their wishes. I've been "outvoted" on this issue.

Ironically, many of the younger members of this forum have told "Theta" that he shouldn't burn his bridges in case he ever meets one of the members of this forum in the future. However, "Theta" forgets that his identity is really not that "anonymous" since in an old thread he has mentioned his undergraduate college, he mentions where he currently lives and the pod school he is attending. Therefore, it doesn't take a rocket science to add 2 and 2 together.

I have received an overwhelming amount of private messages thanking me for my posts and also commenting on your (diabeticfootdr) insightful posts. Apparently many of the members of this site value the input of those of us that have been in practice despite the fact that we have different backgrounds and practice in different areas.

Keep up the good work and I will continue to post for the benefit of those who I believe appreciate my efforts.

 

[Podfather]

As a residency director of a PM&S-36 I can say that the majority of my residents have a base starting salary for their first year between 100-150K. A few have had offers in the 175-200K range. The few who took less were set on a specific crowded locale or waited until the last minte to start their search. You should start thinking about where you want to practice early and begin to do your research and networking ASAP. Attend state meetings visit hospitals, DPMS, orthopedists and multispecialty groups in that area. If an attending in 2009 is offering 50-60K to start they probably are not in need of an associate. Make sure you check with past asociates as to why they left and if they really had a chance to make "bonuses". On the flip side understand that most practices lose on a new associate for a year or two. It will take time to get on plans, build trust, and referrals.

 

[Podfather]

As soon as you become comfortable and acclimated in your residency you should begin to think where you would like to live. This may be a specific city, broader area, or a type of enviroment you desire (on the water, in the mountains, 4 seasons, warm climate etc.) Once you narrow that down, I would then start researching whether the area is growing, the concentration of DPMs and orthopedists, legal and actual scope of practice, and the cost of living. Begininng in your second year, use vacation time to visit the area and see it first hand. I would say network anytime you can. Attend local DPM meetings and even go to the town festivals. Visit real esatate agents and assess the schools. By the end of the second year start to contact hospitals for possible recruitment, send letters to the local DPMs, orthopods, and multispecialty groups. Contact the state society for leads. I think you get it......

 

[GetnMyFtNtheDor]

100K, 150K, 90K, 75K, 60K...I don't really care about the money. 60K /yr is more money than I have ever made in my life...

 

[Postictal Raiden]

100K, 150K, 90K, 75K, 60K...I don't really care about the money. 60K /yr is more money than I have ever made in my life...

It's ture that 60K is a dream income for many people, but most don't finish school with 150K+ debt. I would really question the sanity of a person who goes thru @least 8 years of education, spend their weekends stuyding while others are laying on the beach, and owes a six figure amount by the time of graduation and be happy with making 60K.

I am against going into any healthcare field just for the sake of money. However, pre-health students should be aware of the income vs. expenses situation before being covered by the overwhelming debts.

just a friendly thought.

 

[NatCh]

100K, 150K, 90K, 75K, 60K...I don't really care about the money. 60K /yr is more money than I have ever made in my life...

$60K may seem like a lot when you're an undergrad eating spaghetti and drinking $10/case beer, but after taxes it comes out to maybe $4000/month.

Subtract maybe $2000 for your 10-year loan payment and you're left with $2000.

Subtract another $1000 for rent or mortgage and you have $1000.

Have any kids? Subtract the rest of what you have.

If you sign on somewhere for $60K flat salary without incentive bonus, you're going to be living no better than the typical undergrad.

 

[G0dFather]

$60K may seem like a lot when you're an undergrad eating spaghetti and drinking $10/case beer, but after taxes it comes out to maybe $4000/month.

Subtract maybe $2000 for your 10-year loan payment and you're left with $2000.

Subtract another $1000 for rent or mortgage and you have $1000.

Have any kids? Subtract the rest of what you have.

If you sign on somewhere for $60K flat salary without incentive bonus, you're going to be living no better than the typical undergrad.

lmao and FOOD, transportation, phone, electricity, gas, clothes, internet, cable .... lol it seems you will have to take out another loan just to break even.

 

[msa786]

^ Well unfortunately if that is what we will be making straight out of residency then these are circumstances we will have to deal with!

 

[Black Surgeon]

100K, 150K, 90K, 75K, 60K...I don't really care about the money. 60K /yr is more money than I have ever made in my life...

The "REAL WORD" won't hesitate to dry the snot of idealism out of your nose and smack you in the face.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

lmao and FOOD, transportation, phone, electricity, gas, clothes, internet, cable .... lol it seems you will have to take out another loan just to break even.

or deliver pizza on the weekends!

 

[whiskers]

Well, let's see it's a matter of simple Capitalism.

There are X amount of 100k+ jobs out there in podiatry.

There are Y amount of pods that want those jobs.

There are Z amount of pods that are left without those 100k+ jobs.


Supply and demand.

If you've got 200k+ in loans, you'd better not be turning down too many jobs regardless of income due to pride and what you read on an internet forum. You no longer have the LUXUARY of pride. You HAVE to pay those loans.

Or your life might get really really bad leading to virtual ruin.

Please, for your own sakes, heed PADPM's advice and at the very least it could come true and if not, they you will be happy either way.

It's better to be safe than sorry, so plan accordingly.

Success is not guaranteed and neither is your income.

BTW, I personally think that $60-70k with benefits added on is rather generous considering the market and health care climate right now. If you make more than that, good for you, be happy.

Live within your means and get that debt paid off and THEN you have real bargaining leverage! But 125-200k in debt? You are at the mercy of others.


And for the pod students and prepods out there, some of these people who you insult can really "bag your game" in many ways. I mean, what better way to find out about prospective candidates than from their actions when they think they are alone and no one is looking. You never know who is behind a moniker or who else reads these forums and how that will affect you.