Increase in MD enrollemnt and future of DO

[discover]

Wanted to get everyones thoughts on the recent decision by the AMA to increase allopathic med school enrollment by 15% in the next 10years. What do you all think will be the impact on the DO world. They propose to graduate something like an additional 2700 MD graduates every year.


My thoughts are that this is a modest increase so it wont have a big impact. In some ways it may even be good because there is also a call to end restrictions in medicare residency positions, so it may open up more spots. Plus this indicates that there is a demand for doctors in general. I also dont think there is going to be much of an enrollemnt increase in the very near future..but will probably take like 4-5years to implement. ... The only thing that I worry about is that admision standards at MD schools will fall and hence DO standard will fall also....Does anyone know how much DO enrollment is supposed to grow?


WHAT do you all think????

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[DOPEDERSON]

The only thing that I worry about is that admision standards at MD schools will fall and hence DO standard will fall also

I really don't think you can make this kind of statement. Unless you think that DO schools simply pick at the scraps of MD wait lists; and I hope you are not making this type of assertion. Correct me if I am wrong, and I am sure someone will, but I don’t think MD or DO schools have not had a real problem filling their seats in recent history. Historically, when the job market is bad applications to medical school go up, right? I think I have read this in many different publications. Well with way the economy has been going, I would say getting a seat at either type of school is going to become increasingly difficult. Furthermore, the aforementioned increase in the number of MD seats is to help meet the foreseen increasing demand in healthcare coming with the retirement of the “baby boomers.”
In short: More people looking to go into medicine + more potential seats at medical schools + an increasing demand for healthcare, does not = a drop in medical school standards.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Does anyone know how much DO enrollment is supposed to grow?


WHAT do you all think????

Alot.

Hence the opening of a couple of schools every year.

 

[Pikevillemedstudent]

Wanted to get everyones thoughts on the recent decision by the AMA to increase allopathic med school enrollment by 15% in the next 10years. What do you all think will be the impact on the DO world. They propose to graduate something like an additional 2700 MD graduates every year.


My thoughts are that this is a modest increase so it wont have a big impact. In some ways it may even be good because there is also a call to end restrictions in medicare residency positions, so it may open up more spots. Plus this indicates that there is a demand for doctors in general. I also dont think there is going to be much of an enrollemnt increase in the very near future..but will probably take like 4-5years to implement. ... The only thing that I worry about is that admision standards at MD schools will fall and hence DO standard will fall also....Does anyone know how much DO enrollment is supposed to grow?


WHAT do you all think????

Here's all I could find:

2) AAMC predicts physician shortage
The Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC) is encouraging medical schools to increase their enrollment 15 percent by 2015 to avoid a physician shortage. If all 125 accredited U.S. medical schools increased their enrollment by 15 percent, it would produce about 2,500 new physicians per year. Currently, U.S. medical schools have a total enrollment of 67,466 students, according to a report in Modern Physician.

In response to this growing concern, the AAMC recently created a Center for Workforce Studies to survey and track physician workforce issues. AAMC will hold its first Physician Workforce Research Conference in May.

I do not think this recommendation will really cause alot of changes, especially at state schools where an increase in positions would have to be approved by the state government.

 

[smc927]

There have been new D.O. school's announced - ATSU is considering one in Arizon, and one has been announced in Washington State.

As far as lowering admissions standards, I can only guess. But the AAMC reports show that from 1993 to 2003 the average GPA for matriculants went up from something like 3.4 to 3.6. And the number of applicants went from over 40,000 to around 30,000.

Things have become more competitive, but I don't think doctors any less-educated or proficient than 10 years ago.

 

[discover]

The only thing that I worry about is that admision standards at MD schools will fall and hence DO standard will fall also

I really don't think you can make this kind of statement. Unless you think that DO schools simply pick at the scraps of MD wait lists; and I hope you are not making this type of assertion. Correct me if I am wrong, and I am sure someone will, but I don’t think MD or DO schools have not had a real problem filling their seats in recent history. Historically, when the job market is bad applications to medical school go up, right? I think I have read this in many different publications. Well with way the economy has been going, I would say getting a seat at either type of school is going to become increasingly difficult. Furthermore, the aforementioned increase in the number of MD seats is to help meet the foreseen increasing demand in healthcare coming with the retirement of the “baby boomers.”
In short: More people looking to go into medicine + more potential seats at medical schools + an increasing demand for healthcare, does not = a drop in medical school standards.

Hey...I was not implying that DO schools pick up the scraps of MD school...In fact I was saying that admision standards at both MD and DO schools may fall if the number of applicants stays the same and spots increase...But this is probably not true because the MD spots are only modestly increasing if at all and the number of applicants may rise in the mean time....

THE main point of the post was to open a discussion on the possible expansion of physicians in the future...


I remember at one point I saw a link to a spreadsheet of residency positions of both allo and osteo .(spots filled and open) does anyone have a link to that site...THanks...

 

[sophiejane]

Admissions standards need to CHANGE.

It is horrifying to me the level of immaturity in the class below mine at my school. With a few truly notable exceptions, they are the whiniest, most self-centered group of people I've encountered in quite some time. They have this sense of entitlement that is unbelievable, and a number of them have demonstrated that their sense of ethics and honor is pretty underdeveloped as well.

And yet...they have the highest GPA and MCAT of any class in the history of the school.

The last two years have taught me that undergraduate grades and MCAT scores have nothing to do with your success in medical school. Coming from behind academically can be made up for with sweat and elbow grease. But if your character is flawed coming in, it will be flawed coming out.

Maybe if more spots open up in medical schools and academic standards are lowered slightly, admissions committees can relax about whether or not candidates demonstrate standardized test-taking proficiency and start focusing more on character.

 

[doctorperez]

Admissions standards need to CHANGE.

It is horrifying to me the level of immaturity in the class below mine at my school.

Hi, What school do you attend? Thanks

 

[cooldreams]

Admissions standards need to CHANGE.

It is horrifying to me the level of immaturity in the class below mine at my school. With a few truly notable exceptions, they are the whiniest, most self-centered group of people I've encountered in quite some time. They have this sense of entitlement that is unbelievable, and a number of them have demonstrated that their sense of ethics and honor is pretty underdeveloped as well.

And yet...they have the highest GPA and MCAT of any class in the history of the school.

The last two years have taught me that undergraduate grades and MCAT scores have nothing to do with your success in medical school. Coming from behind academically can be made up for with sweat and elbow grease. But if your character is flawed coming in, it will be flawed coming out.

Maybe if more spots open up in medical schools and academic standards are lowered slightly, admissions committees can relax about whether or not candidates demonstrate standardized test-taking proficiency and start focusing more on character.

nah, they all do it because they know no better system. perhaps a study should be conducted that shows a tight correlation to some number of performance/characteristics and with medical school performance.

i think what they should do is require all doctors to perform some amount of community service for like the first 5 yrs or so after residency. they would have to live off of what the government would give them, and beyond that this would be a no pay position. i think then you would have ppl in here who truly want to do this.

then you should also align premed classes more rigidly. there is too much variation. and the applicants should go through a number of interviews instead of just one or two to determine a number of personal characteristics. plus get letters of character and not just of academic clout. if you make it this far and with a decent gpa and mcat, you obviously can perform, why double/triple check it? move on to character stuff, and honest desire. this should be a humbling experience, not one where you feel like you are deserving of things just given to you.

 

[rtk]

Increasing enrollment in US med schools is an interesting response to the perceived physician shortage. Historically, in the US, the number of doctors in practice has been dictated by the number of physicians completing residency, not graduating from med school. That's because there are significantly more physicians in post graduate education (including international graduates, 75% of whom stay in the US when they complete residency). Increasing the number of allopathic med student positions is not as expensive (to the US gov't) as increasing residency training positions since the brunt of expense is paid through tuition dollars (the onus placed on the student).

Since residency training is essentially bank-rolled by the US gov't and the gov't is all about cuts in health care expenditures, I doubt there will be an equal growth in GME training positions. What that means is there will be fewer ACGME residency spots for international and osteopathic medical graduates in the future and the number of physicians in the workforce won't change much...

 

[DeLaughterDO]

Admissions standards need to CHANGE.

It is horrifying to me the level of immaturity in the class below mine at my school. With a few truly notable exceptions, they are the whiniest, most self-centered group of people I've encountered in quite some time. They have this sense of entitlement that is unbelievable, and a number of them have demonstrated that their sense of ethics and honor is pretty underdeveloped as well.

And yet...they have the highest GPA and MCAT of any class in the history of the school.

The last two years have taught me that undergraduate grades and MCAT scores have nothing to do with your success in medical school. Coming from behind academically can be made up for with sweat and elbow grease. But if your character is flawed coming in, it will be flawed coming out.

Maybe if more spots open up in medical schools and academic standards are lowered slightly, admissions committees can relax about whether or not candidates demonstrate standardized test-taking proficiency and start focusing more on character.

Gee, SophieJane;

I remember thinking much the same thing about both my class ('06) and your class (re: whiniest, most self-centered). I haven't had much (read: any) contact with the class below yours, but I would imagine that as we proceed through our medical education, we see the flaws we once demonstrated at an earlier stage.

Something like a 3 year old calling a 2 year old "poopie-pants" when only yesterday becoming toilet trained...

catch the drift?

Agree with the need to change admissions standards - I think they need to include student interviews (among other things) as well. Get some 3rd and 4th years to interview the applicants - I've never understood why they don't already.

sorry... a bit off topic - punching out now.

jd

 

[Celiac Plexus]

i doubt that the md enrollment will increase by 15% per year. that's a fast clip. however, the main reason for sluggish reaction by md schools to expand is that schools place only a moderate amount weight on studies predicting shortages or surpluses of physicians. 10 years ago studies predicted a surplus of physicians, now there is a prediction of a shortage.

additionally, administrators in the field point to the uneven geographic distribution of physicians as a more pressing concern. they argue that the population is well-served by a more distributed physician population, and not necessarily by increasing enrollment. further, they argue that if enrollment is increased, the geographic disparity will not necessaarily get better, but actually become worse. physicians are like everyone else: they like to live in desirable places. making more physicians will just mean that the uneven balance between urban/rural physicians will worsen.

and then, it's not just a simple case of making more physicians. these physicians still have to train after medical school. each specialty controls how many residency slots to make available. if we have a shortage of x specialty, increasing enrollment without increasing residency slots for specialty x will create further problems. and as salary disparities between specialties continue to grow, applications to lesser paid residencies fall, and applications to more lucrative specialties increase. witness the 8 year decline in interest for family practitioners. with medical school tuitions setting record highs every year (witness out-of-state tuition at colorado... 71K/yr), who will choose to train for a specialty that will make it very hard to pay back student loans?

and finally, the economic picture of medicine may not support increasing the physician pool by 15% per year. a study out of upenn 3-4 years ago convincingly showed a direct relationship between the country's medical expenditure and the number of practitioners. 15% more doctors per year would place an enormous financial burden on a system that is already barely limping on.

 

[discover]

Increasing enrollment in US med schools is an interesting response to the perceived physician shortage. Historically, in the US, the number of doctors in practice has been dictated by the number of physicians completing residency, not graduating from med school. That's because there are significantly more physicians in post graduate education (including international graduates, 75% of whom stay in the US when they complete residency). Increasing the number of allopathic med student positions is not as expensive (to the US gov't) as increasing residency training positions since the brunt of expense is paid through tuition dollars (the onus placed on the student).

Since residency training is essentially bank-rolled by the US gov't and the gov't is all about cuts in health care expenditures, I doubt there will be an equal growth in GME training positions. What that means is there will be fewer ACGME residency spots for international and osteopathic medical graduates in the future and the number of physicians in the workforce won't change much...

Hopefully along with increasing enrollment more Residency spots will open up! Afterall what would be the point of simply increasing enrollment. If that happens then IMG and FMG will have a real hard time finding spots...

Also I'm still looking for a link to resid spots and positions filled...if anyone has such a link please share...THanks

 

[DOctorJay]

PROBLEM, enrollment is increasing, new residency positions which are funded by the government ARE NOT INCREASING.

think about it,
J

 

[Robz]

PROBLEM, enrollment is increasing, new residency positions which are funded by the government ARE NOT INCREASING.

think about it,
J

YUP....

I wonder what FMG's think of this also.

hopefully someone will realize this and increase multiple DIFFERENT quality residencies.

 

[cooldreams]

YUP....

I wonder what FMG's think of this also.

hopefully someone will realize this and increase multiple DIFFERENT quality residencies.

forgive me, but arent there currently more gov funded residencies than there are us-mds or us-dos ?? what point is there to increase the residencies if we cannot even fill them all. i thought that further to that point, even with the influx of img-mds, there are still many unfilled positions.

 

[OSUdoc08]

forgive me, but arent there currently more gov funded residencies than there are us-mds or us-dos ?? what point is there to increase the residencies if we cannot even fill them all. i thought that further to that point, even with the influx of img-mds, there are still many unfilled positions.

Yes, there will always be unfilled positions in family practice and other primary care areas. This is also the area where the physician shortage is.

So, logically, it would make sense to offer incentives to students to practice in these areas, instead of complain about the limitation of subspecialties, that aren't needed as badly.

 

[Celiac Plexus]

Yes, there will always be unfilled positions in family practice and other primary care areas. This is also the area where the physician shortage is.

So, logically, it would make sense to offer incentives to students to practice in these areas, instead of complain about the limitation of subspecialties, that aren't needed as badly.

actually, there is a projected shortage of many specialists... gastroenterologists, cardiologists, surgical fields....

 

[cooldreams]

actually, there is a projected shortage of many specialists... gastroenterologists, cardiologists, surgical fields....

gee a "projected" shortage? do you mean to say currently there is no shortage? i know there is CURRENTLY a large shortage of FP.

 

[OSUdoc08]

actually, there is a projected shortage of many specialists... gastroenterologists, cardiologists, surgical fields....

Not as much as primary care, sorry.

 

[Robz]

forgive me, but arent there currently more gov funded residencies than there are us-mds or us-dos ?? what point is there to increase the residencies if we cannot even fill them all. i thought that further to that point, even with the influx of img-mds, there are still many unfilled positions.

osudoc08 was right.

We are projecting here as well. Think...15% allopathic increase...an incredible increase in DO students....without increasing residencies. Hmmmmm. Something to think about. Currently yes there is too much but a lot are FP residencies which a lot of people are not attracted to at this time.

 

[MedSchoolFool]

Admissions standards need to CHANGE.

It is horrifying to me the level of immaturity in the class below mine at my school. With a few truly notable exceptions, they are the whiniest, most self-centered group of people I've encountered in quite some time. They have this sense of entitlement that is unbelievable, and a number of them have demonstrated that their sense of ethics and honor is pretty underdeveloped as well.

And yet...they have the highest GPA and MCAT of any class in the history of the school.

The last two years have taught me that undergraduate grades and MCAT scores have nothing to do with your success in medical school. Coming from behind academically can be made up for with sweat and elbow grease. But if your character is flawed coming in, it will be flawed coming out.

Maybe if more spots open up in medical schools and academic standards are lowered slightly, admissions committees can relax about whether or not candidates demonstrate standardized test-taking proficiency and start focusing more on character.

Bravo sophiejane! Bravo! I know that in choosing medicine as a career I am going to end up working with physicians who are possibly some of the least human of all God's creatures. (This is actually a huge motivator for me at the present) I hope that when I start school in 2007 I'll be fortunate enough to work under at least 1 person of your caliber in character.

 

[sophiejane]

I hear the sarcasm. Point well taken.

I wasn't trying to exalt myself. Surely we have all judged and been judged.

My point was that I think for a profession that has human beings as its currency and its product, we should look more carefully at character and maturity when choosing who gets to have this very privileged job of taking care of peoples' lives and health.

 

[MedSchoolFool]

My above post is sincere. Now that I look back at it, I totally see how it could be taken sarcastically, but it's not intended to be. Got to love how the internet has jaded us all.

 

[smiegal]

Bravo sophiejane! Bravo! I know that in choosing medicine as a career I am going to end up working with physicians who are possibly some of the least human of all God's creatures. (This is actually a huge motivator for me at the present) I hope that when I start school in 2007 I'll be fortunate enough to work under at least 1 person of your caliber in character.

What have been your experiences with physicians that shaped your perspective? What do you mean by "least human?" Do you believe that "unhuman" people go into medicine (and you're different), or that we're molded into "unhuman" physicians through our training (but you will be different)?

 

[MedSchoolFool]

What have been your experiences with physicians that shaped your perspective? What do you mean by "least human?" Do you believe that "unhuman" people go into medicine (and you're different), or that we're molded into "unhuman" physicians through our training (but you will be different)?

My experience with physicians breaks down into two categories: as a patient, and as a volunteer. There are some great doctors (such as my daughter's pediatrician), but as a patient I have come to dread visiting them. They are simply impersonal. Communicating with a doctor is a monumental task because they often don't have the patience to listen, and they sometimes have a way of making you feel stupid because you did not say things the same way they would have. And let's not forget how doctors love to rush away as quick as they can after diagnosing what needs to be done. Doctors may love medicine, but they sure don't give a damn about people, and they don't mind showing it.

As a volunteer I haven't had as much "doctor time" as I wish I would, but I've seen doctors totally misinterpret what a patient was saying because they couldn't be bothered to slow down and listen. I've heard comments made behind the patients back that were so inappropriate and unprofessional. I know doctors are human, but I don't think it's wrong to expect better from those who have been trained in how to alleviate suffering.

When I say the "least human" I am over-stating my point quite a bit. Child molesters and child murderers are the least human that I can think of, with all other murderers and sexual violaters coming next. But I call doctors less human because they seem to draw such a distinction between themselves and everyone else. I just get the impression that many of them come to have disdain for the patient. Doctors somehow have become disconnected from the people who put them in business, and maybe that word right there is the problem; business.

I do believe I'm different, or else I wouldn't be going into medicine. You can think of me what you like in this respect, but I believe in the saying that to whom much is given much is required. Doctors have a unique place in society. They constantly see people who are at their weakest, their most vulnerable, their most degrading, their most embarrassed, their most desperate, their most helpless, their most confused, their most afraid, etc., etc. times of their life. Sure, a visit to a doctor isn't always so serious, but that doesn't mean it has to be treated any less important. Doctors could do a lot more good for people than they do right now if they would just offer some understanding and acknowledgement for these sort of human dynamics that are constantly taking place for the patient. I mean, what's wrong with comforting someone? Believe me...that's what people want. Yes..they want to get better..but until they are better I think doctors make enough money that they can afford a few extra minutes of their time to comfort someone who is in a position of illness. Being clinical has a time and place, but as far as I'm concerned, when the patient is in the room I'm going to be there for them in whatever capacity I can.

 

[jpwa1988]

There have been new D.O. school's announced - ATSU is considering one in Arizon, and one has been announced in Washington State.

As far as lowering admissions standards, I can only guess. But the AAMC reports show that from 1993 to 2003 the average GPA for matriculants went up from something like 3.4 to 3.6. And the number of applicants went from over 40,000 to around 30,000.

Things have become more competitive, but I don't think doctors any less-educated or proficient than 10 years ago.

The new DO school in Washington State is not a done deal yet. The private group hoping to build the facility in Yakima Washington still needs to raise twenty million dollars. This is not the first time a group has claimed to be building a DO school here so I guess time will tell if it actually happens

 

[vtdo07]

I do believe I'm different, or else I wouldn't be going into medicine. You can think of me what you like in this respect, but I believe in the saying that to whom much is given much is required. Doctors have a unique place in society. They constantly see people who are at their weakest, their most vulnerable, their most degrading, their most embarrassed, their most desperate, their most helpless, their most confused, their most afraid, etc., etc. times of their life. Sure, a visit to a doctor isn't always so serious, but that doesn't mean it has to be treated any less important. Doctors could do a lot more good for people than they do right now if they would just offer some understanding and acknowledgement for these sort of human dynamics that are constantly taking place for the patient. I mean, what's wrong with comforting someone? Believe me...that's what people want. Yes..they want to get better..but until they are better I think doctors make enough money that they can afford a few extra minutes of their time to comfort someone who is in a position of illness. Being clinical has a time and place, but as far as I'm concerned, when the patient is in the room I'm going to be there for them in whatever capacity I can.

With all due respect, I fail to see how you can make the assumption that you will be different before you even begin your journey. Now don't misinterpret what I am saying as being a personal attack on your character because I don't know you on a personal level, however I always found through my experiences as a volunteer, patient, and now medical student (ever so close to being done) we can sometimes be jaded in our assesment of the medical profession. I say this so to focus on the operative word in your post, "business". Medicine is a business and if you don't look at your practice as a business you have a high probablity of joining the ever growing list of doctors that file for bankruptcy every year because of failed practice ventures and an inability to payback their massive debts. I'm not saying that all doctors are great and pure at heart because that would be down right foolishness, but I am saying that many doctors start out with this grand idealism of how they will deliver patient care until they realize that they need to see 40 or more patients a day just to keep their practice running with a "profit margin". Sometimes we forget as current and future medical students that "medicine is a business" and you need to make money to take care of your family, repay your medical loans, buy or rent a home, buy a car, etc.... I sure you get my point with these examples stating the obvious. I will tell you like I tell everyone else before they truely get immersed in the world of medicine, take the wait and see approach before you pass judgment. You might be suprised at some of your thoughts relating to how to run a successful "medical business" as time goes on. Either way best of luck to you in your medical journey and I hope you can hold true to the values you look to bestow upon you future patient base.