Interesting and Very Dangerous Extracurricular Activity

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I have just met a pre-med student who runs an organization that catches child predators. I think it is great that this individual is helping the community out, but it is at the same time extremely dangerous, and of course some police departments and prosecutors are against this vigilante justice. The student is planning to use this as one of his ecs, but I am not sure that that is a good idea. What do you think?

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If the authorities are not a fan of this dude's EC...that's probably a pretty good sign that there's some wildly inappropriate things that they're doing.
 
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If I were an adcom who saw this among the "work & activities", I might google a few key words to see what I could learn about this as it is not something I've heard of before. I might find this news story.

That might not give me a good impression of this applicant's activities.
 
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What exactly does this organization do that the cops and DAs think that they're vigilantes? How exactly is it dangerous?
It works very similar to how things were done on the program "To Catch a Predator," which was hosted by Chris Hansen on Dateline NBC. Anyway, the organization has a decoy that goes online and sets up a profile on dating websites (Grindr, Scout, etc) pretending to be a child. The decoy never initiates contact with the predator, the predator does. Chats take place (sometimes for months) and eventually the predator asks to meet. So, a date and time to meet is set up, and the aforementioned student shows up to meet the predator instead of a child. During the ambush, the sting operation video tapes the interaction. The predator is told that the purpose of the recording is to prove that there was no violence during the interaction. Of course, we all know that they also film to get the predator to admit to a felony. So, a conversation takes place regarding why the predator is doing this. If the predator is interested in getting help, he/she gets referrals to therapists from the sting operation.

By the time of the meeting, the organization has all the information about the predator.

Police have advised sting operations not to do this because it is very dangerous for many many reasons. For instance, many times bystanders watch and try to get involved.
 
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I cannot express just how both personally and legally dangerous this is. When trying setup or entrap someone as a citizen without being under any legal authority to do so, makes you open to being charged with the attempted version of the crime you are imitating, whether or not your intent was to carry out the actual crime. You also can be charged with various statutes mostly doing with impacting official duties of LE. I cannot stress just how much trouble this can cause. You may ask what Police or DA would prosecute such a crime? The ones who do not want to be embarrassed by their lack of enforcement for one. Additionally any "evidence" you possible collect could be considered entrapment and may not be admissible in court, especially in federal court. The person you are trying to entrap could then sue you for damages if they are not convicted.

If your really want to help, contact the the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC) at Home. This organization has a cybertip line, a 24-hour hotline for missing children at 1-800-THE-LOST, and works with FBI and other law enforcement organization. They are always looking for volunteers to man phone lines as well as many other functions.
This is not for me. I am already a doctor. I certainly would not want to get involved in something like this. For safety reasons, I suggested that he stop doing this.
 
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At the very least, he should not list it on his application. He should hope that he is not prosecuted as described by @gonnif as that would add a whole different twist to the information that would need to be included in the AMCAS application.
 
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@gonnif, all I am saying is that his organization follows what Chris Hansen did. That is what he told me. I don't agree with what he is doing. I agree with what the police told him: it is too dangerous for many reasons. I think adcoms would see it as using poor judgement.

This individual is becoming known in his community and elsewhere.
 
@gonnif, all I am saying is that his organization follows what Chris Hansen did. That is what he told me. I don't agree with what he is doing. I agree with what the police told him: it is too dangerous for many reasons. I think adcoms would see it as using poor judgement.

This individual is becoming known in his community and elsewhere.
Aside from offering your wise counsel, there isn't much you can do. You might want to share this thread with your friend.
 
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@gonnif, all I am saying is that his organization follows what Chris Hansen did. That is what he told me. I don't agree with what he is doing. I agree with what the police told him: it is too dangerous for many reasons. I think adcoms would see it as using poor judgement.

This individual is becoming known in his community and elsewhere.
Tell him that he'd be DOA at my med school and judging from the responses from others here, many others as well.

He can get his adrenalin rush in EM.
 
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This is not his team. I found this on YouTube. This organization is in Canada. But, they do the exact same type of thing :
 
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do you know that many of the cases on to catch a predator were simply thrown as the involvement of amateurs tainted much of the way evidence was gathered? Or that the network was sued by several of the those they caught? Or the host himself was arrested for both writing bad checks and for not appearing in court in a lawsuit against the show?

DA refuses to prosecute ‘Catch a Predator’ cases
‘Dateline: To Catch a Predator’ Case Ends in Acquittal
NBC resolves lawsuit over 'To Catch a Predator' suicide
‘To Catch a Predator’ host Chris Hansen wanted on arrest warrant - National | Globalnews.ca

What would be the cause of action? It's not liberal/slander if it's true. There is no reasonable expectation of privacy. What would the resulting tort be? The bigger danger is letting the perv get away as you suggest in other posts or potentially becoming the victim of physical violence. If the individual would harm a child, he wouldn't think twice about harming an adult.
 
Tell him that he'd be DOA at my med school and judging from the responses from others here, many others as well.

He can get his adrenalin rush in EM.
hopefully nobody that dumb winds up in EM.
 
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I agree with all of the posts here. I know that he has a YouTube channel and is well known in his community. So even if he doesn't bring it up in his application, someone more than likely will recognize him from either being on the news, being featured in magazines or seeing him on a catch. He mentioned that he does catches all over the U.S.

I'll show him this thread as @LizzyM suggested. @LizzyM thank you for the suggestion.
 
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Sort of an update: I showed him this thread, and he is not discouraged at all. He is not doing this for volunteer purposes. He explained that he has someone in his life that has been molested as a child, and the police are not productive and fast enough to catch them. He is also working to change the laws: the laws aren't strict enough.

He showed the police how many predators approached his profile on different apps, wanting to chat. They were really surprised by the number of them waiting for him in his inbox. The police know of this being a big problem, but they didn't realize how many there were.

I still don't agree with this because of the danger involved. Even police officers have to have specialized training to do this, and he is often told this by the authorities. But, he wants to continue because he has gotten many predators arrested.
 
Sort of an update: I showed him this thread, and he is not discouraged at all. He is not doing this for volunteer purposes. He explained that he has someone in his life that has been molested as a child, and the police are not productive and fast enough to catch them. He is also working to change the laws: the laws aren't strict enough.

He showed the police how many predators approached his profile on different apps, wanting to chat. They were really surprised by the number of them waiting for him in his inbox. The police know of this being a big problem, but they didn't realize how many there were.

I still don't agree with this because of the danger involved. Even police officers have to have specialized training to do this, and he is often told this by the authorities. But, he wants to continue because he has gotten many predators arrested.
TBH, it sounds like he found his calling, and it's not medicine. :cool:

Has he considered applying to the police academy? Or law school?
 
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TBH, it sounds like he found his calling, and it's not medicine. :cool:

Has he considered applying to the police academy? Or law school?
That's what I thought too. But, he feels he is ready to apply to med school. He graduates with a high GPA in Biology this fall and has done well on the MCAT exam. I know he works as a medical assistant and has volunteered in the hospital. Yet, he is sooo passionate about getting these perverts off the streets. I don't think he realizes that he won't have time for this once he starts med school.
 
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That's what I thought too. But, he feels he is ready to apply to med school. He graduates with a high GPA in Biology this fall and has done well on the MCAT exam. I know he works as a medical assistant and has volunteered in the hospital. Yet, he is sooo passionate about getting these perverts off the streets. I don't think he realizes that he won't have time for this once he starts med school.
I hear you, and I'm not judging. I'm just taking the temperature of the room, and it sounds like the adcoms, representing a very staid, conservative profession, are not going to be comfortable bringing him into their family.

If that is correct, he's going to have an extremely frustrating cycle, high stats notwithstanding. Moreover, if he is really drawn to living on the edge and locking up predators, why medicine?
 
Defamation of character. If a criminal action is brought thru the very public action of a TV show and the individual is found not guilty, could be powerful enough case for s large network to settle out of court. One case was brought by a family member for pain and suffering who’s Father I believe committed suicide over the episode. There was even a stockholder lawsuit ultimately (that went no where) after the host/producer chet hanson was arrested and convicted of some fraudulent activity involving production company funds. BTW The production company was called perverted justice.

Remember here is use of lawsuits mostly as a business tactic. Does a network want the time, expense and publicity of a lengthy lawsuit saying that its show has accused a man who was not convicted in court? Easier to settle and make it go away
It's not defamation of character if the information is true and not portrayed in a misleading way regardless of any criminal case, but you're right that any idiot with the filing fee or a court approved fee waiver can file a frivolous lawsuit. I hadn't heard about the suicide, but looking into it, it appears that it went far beyond what is normal for the show. The decedent never appeared at the sting operation, but the camera crew showed up at his house anyway while authorities were conducting part of an investigation. There is a lot more plausible deniability of wrong doing for a potential plaintiff. It is hard to deny you made statements that are memorialized in writing with instructions to meet that were only known to the perv and those conducting the sting, but I'm getting off topic. We can all agree that it is not a wise expenditure of time for a member of the general public and is a great way to be murdered or assaulted.
 
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TBH, it sounds like he found his calling, and it's not medicine. :cool:

Has he considered applying to the police academy? Or law school?
He'd probably enjoy being a prosecutor.
 
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do you know that many of the cases on to catch a predator were simply thrown as the involvement of amateurs tainted much of the way evidence was gathered? Or that the network was sued by several of the those they caught? Or the host himself was arrested for both writing bad checks and for not appearing in court in a lawsuit against the show?

Imagine being this angry at the tactics used by a tv show that catches child molesters
 
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Imagine being this angry at the tactics used by a tv show that catches child molesters
I think he was just pointing out all of the issues that surrounded the show, and that was with the backing of a major media company, while warning of the recklessness of a random pre-med with a good heart emulating it.

In any event, I didn't hear anyone who usually knows what they are talking saying this is a great, noble, unique EC that is certain to capture the imagination of adcoms from coast to coast. Angry or not, the consensus seems to be that this is dangerous and reckless, two traits that are not valued in prospective medical students.
 
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Sort of an update: I showed him this thread, and he is not discouraged at all. He is not doing this for volunteer purposes. He explained that he has someone in his life that has been molested as a child, and the police are not productive and fast enough to catch them. He is also working to change the laws: the laws aren't strict enough.

He showed the police how many predators approached his profile on different apps, wanting to chat. They were really surprised by the number of them waiting for him in his inbox. The police know of this being a big problem, but they didn't realize how many there were.

I still don't agree with this because of the danger involved. Even police officers have to have specialized training to do this, and he is often told this by the authorities. But, he wants to continue because he has gotten many predators arrested.
Great....he wants to be Batman.
 
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The only saving grace may be that he is not obligated to report this activity on his application. If he keeps it secret and manages not to get killed or arrested before he gets admitted to med school, the adcoms may never be the wiser.
 
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The only saving grace may be that he is not obligated to report this activity on his application. If he keeps it secret and manages not to get killed or arrested before he gets admitted to med school, the adcoms may never be the wiser.
Not so much. My takeaway from OP's posts are that the person's activity is out in the open, so that will not be possible if anyone does any checking at all!
I agree with all of the posts here. I know that he has a YouTube channel and is well known in his community. So even if he doesn't bring it up in his application, someone more than likely will recognize him from either being on the news, being featured in magazines or seeing him on a catch. He mentioned that he does catches all over the U.S.

I'll show him this thread as @LizzyM suggested. @LizzyM thank you for the suggestion.
 
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I can see why he wants to do this, but I do agree that it looks bad to adcoms. There will also be a concern about what he will do if he finds out that his patient is a pedo. Will he withhold care or hurt that patient. You will eventually get a patient that is on the naughty list. I've had at least one pt that was arrested for doing this myself.

I think there needs to be more funding for the police to hunt these people down so that the public doesn't feel obligated to do so. I also think that there needs to be harsher sentences like life in prison for SA crimes.
 
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Sort of an update: I showed him this thread, and he is not discouraged at all. He is not doing this for volunteer purposes. He explained that he has someone in his life that has been molested as a child, and the police are not productive and fast enough to catch them. He is also working to change the laws: the laws aren't strict enough.

He showed the police how many predators approached his profile on different apps, wanting to chat. They were really surprised by the number of them waiting for him in his inbox. The police know of this being a big problem, but they didn't realize how many there were.

I still don't agree with this because of the danger involved. Even police officers have to have specialized training to do this, and he is often told this by the authorities. But, he wants to continue because he has gotten many predators arrested.
This begs the question: why is he trying to spend the better part of the next decade becoming a doctor instead of pursuing a career in law enforcement, social work, or policy to work on this issue in an ethical and legal way with an appropriate skill set? This candidate poses so many problems for an adcom that I doubt one would trust this candidate to follow institutional and legal guidelines for patient care but rather take matters into their own hands. Medical doctors are mandated reporters - we do not investigate, draw conclusions, or hold other accountable.
 
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Does the end justify the means?
The consensus on this board is that in this example it does not...for the purpose of admission.
Medical history and medical practice are replete with examples of physicians justifying the means to achieve the desired end.
IMHO...it is easy to castigate the means of others.....while we find ways to justify ends that we find desirable.
 
A point that I made earlier and feel the need to expand on is in healthcare you will need to take care of criminals. I've taken care of child predators as well as murderers. If it is found out that you have a history of being a vigilante or supporting extreme actions done by one that is a huge risk for a med school to accept you. If you purposely botch a procedure or surgery and it comes out you are definitely getting sued, the hospital is getting sued, and possibly the medical school that accepted you as well. If your extremist views can be found via a Google search it could be argued that the medical school negligently let you in and as a result gave you the power that you abused to harm the patient.

Any sane medical school admissions member would not take that chance. I would advise people to not put these kinds of views in writing or have them recorded and put on the internet.
 
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He shadowed me for awhile and I let him go because I felt too uncomfortable with what he was doing.

.As for changing careers, he is not interested in becoming a lawyer or police officer.

I've also mentioned to him that bystanders could also get injured or killed during a confrontation. Nothing phases him. I think he will continue this even if his YouTube channel gets demonetized. Some police departments are in favor of what he does. So I think there is no stopping him until something happens, unfortunately.
 
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He shadowed me for awhile and I let him go because I felt too uncomfortable with what he was doing.

.As for changing careers, he is not interested in becoming a lawyer or police officer.

I've also mentioned to him that bystanders could also get injured or killed during a confrontation. Nothing phases him. I think he will continue this even if his YouTube channel gets demonetized. Some police departments are in favor of what he does. So I think there is no stopping him until something happens, unfortunately.
What do you mean by "changing careers"? The consensus is he is not going to be a doctor, so, what exactly is his career? Unpaid vigilante? Does he make enough on YouTube to live? :cool:
 
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As far as safety goes, he thinks it's alright because he has security that follows him during a confrontation. He doesn't seem to think much can happen because his camera man videotapes the interaction.. He explains to the predator that this is done to avoid accusations of violence. But, of course we all know that he is trying to get the predator to admit to his crimes on tape.

I still think it is extremely dangerous for everyone around.
 
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I meant working toward a career.
I know, but you seem to be implying that he has no interest in changing from medicine (as opposed to vigilantism), and I was jokingly pointing out that the consensus among the adcoms is that he will be unadmittable with his notoriety, so he really needed to open himself up to new possibilities, because MD is probably not in his future.

As others have noted, assuming he manages to stay alive, he is a lawsuit waiting to happen, so no reputable med school or health care employer would ever go near him, no matter what other positive traits he brings to the table.
 
@KnightDoc Oh he has been told by law enforcement and DAs about everything you mentioned. They have all explained to him why it is dangerous for everyone involved. I've felt very uncomfortable with him shadowing me. That is why I had to let him go.

Anyway, he is an adult and whether or not he is going to continue is up to him. He knows my opinion.
 
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As far as safety goes, he thinks it's alright because he has security that follows him during a confrontation. He doesn't seem to think much can happen because his camera man videotapes the interaction.. He explains to the predator that this is done to avoid accusations of violence. But, of course we all know that he is trying to get the predator to admit to his crimes on tape.

I still think it is extremely dangerous for everyone around.

He should watch the first 48 to find out just how often a murder occurs with a witness or someone filming lol.
 
From what you mentioned earlier, this sounds like he's on a deeply personal crusade against a perceived failure in our criminal justice system. At this point, it might be better to just cut ties and stop trying to convince him. It's clear he's using emotions rather than logic to fuel his worldview, and y'all know you can't really debate people running on emotions.

It's only a matter of time before he stumbles across an organized crime ring of human traffickers. To say it won't end well would be putting it mildly. You sound like a really compassionate person, but imo save yourself the headache now and the heartache later and cut contact with him.
 
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I took a look at YouTube and found tons and tons of groups that are doing this too. I think he got the idea from some of the groups. A few of the groups have become well known (News channels, newspapers, magazines) for their work, and now he is starting to become known. They travel all over the U.S. Sometimes the groups collaborate on catches. They seem to find this exciting. Certain police departments love their work, so they get more encouraged to continue as they get more predators arrested and convicted.

As far as he goes, I don't have very much contact with him. He knows how I feel about his activity.
 
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This is a terrible idea on so many levels. Hardened criminals will not cry and try to run away when confronted by a couple people with a video camera and a can of mace.
Oh definitely. It's still bad even though he has hidden security and lawyers working for his company; No matter what, these groups don't have the training and experience that cops have. And law enforcement officers need specialized training on top of police recruit school and regular field training just to do this. These vigilantes are often told that they don't have probable cause and that this is just a very dangerous movement. But, the more predators that get arrested and convicted because of their work, the more encouraged they get to continue.
 
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