Interesting hypothetical: What's your opinion?

[notdeadyet]

Does this mean that "Justice" is a ridiculous concept that is not worth striving for?

This kind of passion would be more impressive if it were spent lobbying to reduce poverty or famine. The noble cause of striving to destroy unfair advantages that top students have at one school over top students at another? Not so much.

Ever notice how these things are not big issues unless you have a vested interest in getting in to medical school? That's because this is not really a big social injustice in the big scheme of things.

Just because life isn't fair (and will almost certainly never become fair) doesn't mean that we can't try to make it a little more fair when we're able to, or be willing to point out its injustices, does it?

Please go ahead and focus your energies on making life a little more fair for the bright and well educated as they pursue their options of medical schools. But let's not wave the banner of making the world a better place for righting the world's injustices, okay? Whether students have it better at Brown vs. Darmouth just doesn't qualify.

I'm just always a bit amused by how much outrage we can summon over these pretty petty little "injustices" since they have an impact on our ability to go to the med school of our choice, while the actual injustices that have a huge impact on people without as many options.... well, it's just not as interestings somehow.

But again, to each their own...

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[notdeadyet]

That made no sense. .... But please do not tell any of us that you would rather be poor and go to a less reputable state school than be rich and go to a prestigious private institution all in the name of having multiple choice tests and fodder for your personal statement. Comparing different situations and saying that sort of thing is ludicrous.

If your read was that I was advocating that it's better to be poor and go to a state school, I can see why you're confused. That's not what I was saying at all.

 

[notdeadyet]

So then that means that you dont have a prob w/ aa either, right (had to bring it up)?

Exactly! I was avoiding AA just because I swear that there are spider bots out there that lure in some SDNers every time those initials are used.

But good example. Non-URMs complaining about AA because it somehow robs you of a spot you were otherwise guaranteed at medical school.

C'mon, you know that whatever privilege you get is either fair or "not worth even thinking about because of the sheer quantity of injustice in the world", but whatever privilege somebody else gets is just WRONG and must be abolished.

Well said, trustwomen. The only injustices are those that affect us directly. Otherwise, they're not injustices, right?

 

[trustwomen]

This kind of passion would be more impressive if it were spent lobbying to reduce poverty or famine. The noble cause of striving to destroy unfair advantages that top students have at one school over top students at another? Not so much.

Ever notice how these things are not big issues unless you have a vested interest in getting in to medical school? That's because this is not really a big social injustice in the big scheme of things.

Please go ahead and focus your energies on making life a little more fair for the bright and well educated as they pursue their options of medical schools. But let's not wave the banner of making the world a better place for righting the world's injustices, okay?

I'm just always a bit amused by how much outrage we can summon over these pretty petty little "injustices" since they have an impact on our ability to go to the med school of our choice, while the actual injustices that have a huge impact on people without as many options.... well, it's just not as interestings somehow.

I'm not "striving to end" the "grade injustice" - I just pointed it out on an email forum. Took about five minutes, leaving me with plenty of energy for my actual causes. I do think making access to medical school more "fair" is a worthy cause, however, just like making access to all professions more "fair" is worthy. (And I'm in at my top choice school already, so the "vested interest" you seem to imply is not there).

And you assume (wrongly, in my case at least) that everyone who recognizes small injustices does so at the expense of larger ones. On the contrary, I suspect those who are laissez-faire about smaller injustices (i.e. the ones holding the stick, never the ones on its receiving end) are also more laissez-faire about the larger ones - everything is relative, right? After all, rich people have more money to buy food, but hey, poor people sometimes get food for free from the government, so how can we possibly evaluate who has the greater advantage?

Experiencing the "stick" will often make people more sensitive to the larger questions of justice. Not the reverse. And fear not, notdeadyet, my passion is indeed going to good use in this world... (well, not according to Panda Bear, but you can't please everybody)

 

[trustwomen]

But good example. Non-URMs complaining about AA because it somehow robs you of a spot you were otherwise guaranteed at medical school.

Well said, trustwomen. The only injustices are those that affect us directly. Otherwise, they're not injustices, right?

I was being sarcastic, of course.

And I am a ORM who fully supports AA because I believe that it redresses more injustice than it causes. Yes, even though it made it harder for me to get into med school. I posted one time on an AA thread about all the unfair advantages I have just for being white, and people seemed surprised.

If I were at Brown, I'd still be against this policy. I'm weird that way.

 

[notdeadyet]

And you assume (wrongly, in my case at least) that everyone who recognizes small injustices does so at the expense of larger ones.

Glad to hear that you're not sweating Brown vs. Dartmouth at the expense of larger injustices. That really is good to hear.

I just can't help but notice something about SDN. I read lots of posts about the injustices in the medical school application process, about how other groups have unfair advantages over me. It can range from URMs, to students from certain states, to the rich, to the poor. Someone else always has an edge.

Then I read posts about things like unfair access to healthcare and pretty much any other social injustice out there.

And you know what? I'm guessing here, but I would confidently say that there are about 50x as many posts on the former as compared to the latter.

I'm glad to hear that you're keeping your eye on the prize and unfair advantages someone else has in the medical process is a pet project. But from the traffic levels, you seem to be in the minority.

 

[notdeadyet]

I was being sarcastic, of course.

Me too. I was agreeing with you. I should really use the rolling-eyes-face more often, but I hate the damn things.

;-)

There. Call me old school.

 

[trustwomen]

Glad to hear that you're not sweating Brown vs. Dartmouth at the expense of larger injustices. That really is good to hear.

I just can't help but notice something about SDN. I read lots of posts about the injustices in the medical school application process, about how other groups have unfair advantages over me. It can range from URMs, to students from certain states, to the rich, to the poor.

Then I read posts about things like unfair access to healthcare and pretty much any other social injustice out there.

And you know what? I'm guessing here, but I would confidently say that there are about 50x as many posts on the former as compared to the latter.

I'm glad to hear that you're keeping your eye on the prize and unfair advantages someone else has in the medical process is a pet project. But from the traffic levels, you seem to be in the minority.

I think you're dealing with the fact that most of the posters are simply young. This may be the first "injustice" they've ever experienced. I agree that those who rail against AA may never actually grow out of it and broaden their scope (if they could broaden their scope, they'd stop railing) but this Ivy thing is not "reverse discrimination" - it's straight-up money-talks old-school discrimination, when you consider the privilege of those who benefit.

I agree 100% about the lack of SDN passion re. unfair access to healthcare (and have you seen those immigration threads recently? yikes) but after you post so many times in those types of threads, and get shot down time and again, you get tired. SDN is quite conservative in its thinking, overall - I understand how those concerned with social justice would just not bother posting after a while, especially in threads where they'll just get abused for it.

 

[kevinp2]

Well I'm an undergrad at Brown so I thought I'd put my 2 cents in...

The grading policy/no core curriculum is put into place to encourage academic exploration. The curriculum allows you to risk taking harder courses or courses in a subject that you may have felt uncomfortable with. You usually end up doing better than you expected and learning a lot more than you would have if you were afraid of failing. You find yourself taking difficult or unusual courses and understanding a wider range of material.

The classes here tend to be considerably harder than your average school anyway. Orgo is much more difficult here than at the average school and the grading system isn't going to help you beat the curve.

The policy wouldn't work everywhere obviously, but the majority of students here are responsible and it works here. Only 1 out ~14-15 kids apply to medical school anyway so it wouldn't make much sense to base grading around premed concerns -- especially when the people complaining are whiny premeds at other schools and not the med schools themselves.

And frankly it would be really difficult to make the argument that inflated GPAs are guaranteeing Brown students acceptance. Kids here are smart. If MCATs are any indicator of competitiveness, from the stats from previous years the average here comes out to about a 32 with 23% of the applying class getting a 37 or above.

Also I don't know of anyone getting an A for effort. I don't know how that got mixed up in all this.

Sorry about the long post. Just had to vent…

 

[defrunner]

If your read was that I was advocating that it's better to be poor and go to a state school, I can see why you're confused. That's not what I was saying at all.

Of course not obviously; it was just an example utilizing your own argument. I inferred from what I read that you were saying that different groups have different types of advantages; from that, you used them to try to prove your argument that in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter. However, my point was that doing so detracted from the issue at hand and only served to confuse others reading this, which is why I said what you said as an example.

You're right in that SDN members seem to be more interested in themselves than in the world around them in terms of injustice and inequality, but again, that wasn't the issue at hand and saying that only further confuses this. Trying to make people feel bad for thinking about themselves first and then thinking about others is effective on the surface but fails upon closer examination. I'd like to think that I can be an agent of change myself by helping others to succeed, but ultimately I must take care of myself and my family first before taking care of the world at hand. This is the best way I can accomplish both goals and I make no secret of my goal of getting into medical school. I daresay that almost nobody attends medical school for purely altruistic motives, even you, my friend.

On the subject of AA, while I do recognize the advantages in life that comes with being an ORM, I also feel that pandering to the URM in such an obviously condescending manner only serves a detrimental purpose. There is no reason why intelligent URMs cannot attend medical school if they truly have the drive to do so. People who make excuses for others that cannot succeed are just perpetuating the stereotype that URMs are just naturally less qualifed as a whole and until AA stops, there will continue to be a cycle (warranted or not) of URMs being discriminated against and having been let in due to their background.

While AA was well-intentioned and perhaps did the job 30, 40 years ago, it is an outdated by-product of an older time period and really does not have a place today (even though some racism still exists, unfortunately). Remember, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I do not mind not getting into medical school based on merit; if a more qualified candidate than me is chosen, then that's fine. I do not mind if an applicant of equal ability or even slightly lesser ability gets in over me, because I know that this is a crapshoot and that I have some questionable parts about my application myself. I do mind if an applicant with a 24 MCAT and 2.5 GPA gets in solely because of the background, because at some point, the line must be drawn. There is a reason why women generally do not serve as firefighters -- all firefighters must be able to pick up and carry a dead weight of 180 pounds or something. People who enroll in medical school are generally entrusted with people's lives over the course of their training and if they simply cannot handle the rigors of medical school, then oh, well.

I think it's a great thing if URMs have a greater presence in medical school, but wouldn't it mean more and be more of an accomplishment to both them and the general population within the medical community if they were accepted on their own merits? This isn't an easy question and I do not want to start anything, but from what I know and from my own experiences, I just feel that pandering to the URMs can only be detrimental, now and down the road. They can stand on their own two feet. If it is an issue of finances, then it afflicts me and a huge amount of ORMs as well.

 

[laurenem]

I think we're missing the larger issue here: grade inflation. This is an issue across all education, not just for amcas. It is a huge fear of mine because I come from an undergrad that has a policy of "grade deflation" which basically means that average test scores are almost always below 70% (sometimes as low as 30% especially in premed courses), and then they curve the class around that average being a C+. Even though most of us fear the reprocusions of this system,and it might give a slight disadvantage for grad school, it is a fair system and I applaud them for trying to fight inflation. It does have its problems, as deans of certain programs are more strict as others, so each department has a different grading scale. But the school has gained respect with adcoms at med schools, law schools, and business schools for this policy. I think the Canadian who posted gave a different prospective to this post: and he/she is correct. American schools are too "nice" to their students. Most americans freak out over a C, but in most other countries this is a terrific grade.
As for dropping courses, my school has a policy of having a W on your transcript after 2 weeks if you drop a course. They recently made it so that after a month (not sure of the exact timing, but its usually around the first exam period), you CANNOT under any circumstances drop a course. This is another policy made to prevent grade inflation, and thus gain respect from graduate schools.

 

[trustwomen]

Ah, defrunner, you had me cheering for the first two paragraphs, anyway.

 

[trustwomen]

I think we're missing the larger issue here: grade inflation. This is an issue across all education, not just for amcas. It is a huge fear of mine because I come from an undergrad that has a policy of "grade deflation" which basically means that average test scores are almost always below 70% (sometimes as low as 30% especially in premed courses), and then they curve the class around that average being a C+. Even though most of us fear the reprocusions of this system,and it might give a slight disadvantage for grad school, it is a fair system and I applaud them for trying to fight inflation. It does have its problems, as deans of certain programs are more strict as others, so each department has a different grading scale. But the school has gained respect with adcoms at med schools, law schools, and business schools for this policy. I think the Canadian who posted gave a different prospective to this post: and he/she is correct. American schools are too "nice" to their students. Most americans freak out over a C, but in most other countries this is a terrific grade.
As for dropping courses, my school has a policy of having a W on your transcript after 2 weeks if you drop a course. They recently made it so that after a month (not sure of the exact timing, but its usually around the first exam period), you CANNOT under any circumstances drop a course. This is another policy made to prevent grade inflation, and thus gain respect from graduate schools.

Thanks, laurenem (and I'm a she, in case you were curious). And although I'm afraid I can't agree that a C is a "terrific grade", a B is respectable enough. Still won't get you into med school though (ironically, our GPA cutoffs are higher than for American schools).

Question: do you think grade inflation is a logical consequence to skyrocketing tuition costs? Canadian schools, for example, are much less expensive (more heavily subsidized by government) and therefore less beholden to their students (and, by extension, their students' parents) for their financial health. (When people pay that much money, they want As, dammit.)

 

[notdeadyet]

I think you're dealing with the fact that most of the posters are simply young. This may be the first "injustice" they've ever experienced.

Maybe you're right there. My only concern is that I know too many folks who never get beyond becoming offended by any injustice that doesn't impact them very very directly. I just am uncomfortable with the precedent.

but this Ivy thing is not "reverse discrimination" - it's straight-up money-talks old-school discrimination, when you consider the privilege of those who benefit.

Ah. I would agree with this except that this policy Brown uses is not rampant amongst the ivies (so far as I know) and is also employed by state schools too. My alma mater, UC Santa Cruz, had the same policy. It was designed to let folks take classes they'd otherwise be afraid to take, to encourage experimentation.

If use of Brown's policies amonst elite private schools was the norm and state schools never used it, I'd buy the money-talks argument. But I don't think we can really argue that this policy is used only, or even primarily, at private schools.

And, yes, I've seen the immigration threads recently. It just saddens me.

 

[notdeadyet]

On the subject of AA,

No. I have no interest in this thread deteriorating into another AA thread. There are hundreds out there already.

 

[notdeadyet]

Thanks, laurenem (and I'm a she, in case you were curious).

And plural, as well...

 

[trustwomen]

Ah. I would agree with this except that this policy Brown uses is not rampant amongst the ivies (so far as I know) and is also employed by state schools too. My alma mater, UC Santa Cruz, had the same policy. It was designed to let folks take classes they'd otherwise be afraid to take, to encourage experimentation.

If use of Brown's policies amonst elite private schools was the norm and state schools never used it, I'd buy the money-talks argument. But I don't think we can really argue that this policy is used only, or even primarily, at private schools.

And, yes, I've seen the immigration threads recently. It just saddens me.

New information = must recalculate = still don't like the policy, although it might fit less into the pattern I suspected. Still, I heard that overall the Ivies have worse grade inflation? (Perhaps less systemic than Brown though?)

Perhaps the problem is AMCAS. In Canada certain med schools drop your lowest X grades in order to encourage "experimentation" etc... and they each calculate your GPA differently. But most premeds don't "experiment" much anyway. I still don't like the policy because the GPA will be higher than that of a similarly "experimental" student at another school.

 

[defrunner]

Ah, defrunner, you had me cheering for the first two paragraphs, anyway.

Haha, aw sorry trustwomen, I wasn't trying to come off like I don't support URMs and getting into med school. On the contrary, I am for as much diversity as possible. I just think that in general, AA doesn't give the URMs as much credit as they deserve, you know? URMs are perfectly capable of doing the job just as well, if not better than, any of the ORMs, but the way I'm perceiving AA is akin to someone holding a 12 year old kid's hand while walking across the street, telling the kid "Sorry, I just don't think you are old enough and capable of crossing the street all by yourself without my help." I mean, if I were an URM, I would probably be insulted by the connotations of AA and strive to succeed without any assistance whatsoever. That's just my perception, but perhaps I'm wrong; I never said I was right. I'm always up for someone educating me on why this is necessary, even though this particular thread may not be the right place for it. If you or someone convinces me of why AA is necessary and appropriate, then I will argue for it at that time just as fervently (and possibly even more effectively) as I am currently arguing against it.

A lot of the world's problems would be solved with education, but only if the people being educated have an open mind to it. I never want to close my mind off to other possibilities and refuse to definitively say what's right. That said, what I have been posting about is merely a product of my perception thus far, and I can always change my way of thinking (or at least I hope that I can).

 

[trustwomen]

And plural, as well...

I'm not plural - I just use my handle to spout cheesy philosophy (My "cause" is quite feminist)

 

[defrunner]

No. I have no interest in this thread deteriorating into another AA thread. There are hundreds out there already.

Wasn't my fault dude; I was talking about the policy of Brown and its consequences, and trying to keep the arguments made on point.

 

[notdeadyet]

In Canada certain med schools drop your lowest X grades in order to encourage "experimentation" etc... and they each calculate your GPA differently. But most premeds don't "experiment" much anyway.

Very interesting. Something definitely needs to be done to encourage a broader education for premeds. I don't see how we can train a student almost exclusively in the sciences during their formative years and then expect them to make an informed decision regarding something along the lines of bioethics or whatnot.

Did not know that about Canada. Intriguing, but I can see what you mean about possible flaws.

 

[notdeadyet]

I'm not plural - I just use my handle to spout cheesy philosophy (My "cause" is quite feminist)

Ah. I just thought you were a dude into women with trust funds. My bad....

Joking...

 

[zbruinz]

It looks to me that appleluver is defending Brown and (even attends Brown? I didn't read the whole thread), and this entire thread was some sort of attention seeking trick. (just my opinion)

 

[ND2005]

It looks to me that appleluver is defending Brown and (even attends Brown? I didn't read the whole thread), and this entire thread was some sort of attention seeking trick. (just my opinion)

Yes.

 

[Rafa]

I skimmed the thread, and I stopped reading when I realized that notdeadyet was saying everything I'd have said, without me having to type it.

 

[riceman04]

C'mon, you know that whatever privilege you get is either fair or "not worth even thinking about because of the sheer quantity of injustice in the world", but whatever privilege somebody else gets is just WRONG and must be abolished. (Especially if that privilege is granted by society, in lieu of the rich parents they don't have - man, that's a privilege that's got to go.)

I know, but some people on here are arguing according to a double standard. So I just felt that I needed to challenge that (at least indirectly).

 

[appleluver7]

It looks to me that appleluver is defending Brown and (even attends Brown? I didn't read the whole thread), and this entire thread was some sort of attention seeking trick. (just my opinion)

Yes, you feel the need, for whatever reason, to trash schools about which you know nothing.

 

[riceman04]

The classes here tend to be considerably harder than your average school anyway. Orgo is much more difficult here than at the average school and the grading system isn't going to help you beat the curve.

not sure if that is a validated statement seeing as how you probably have not taken this class at other universities.

I think we all like to think of our university offering the hardest classes b/c of our own internal bias. I guess that means that I can say orgo at Rice was just as difficult if not harder...

 

[zbruinz]

Yes, you feel the need, for whatever reason, to trash schools about which you know nothing.

ah, not this again.

 

[kevinp2]

not sure if that is a validated statement seeing as how you probably have not taken this class at other universities.

I think we all like to think of our university offering the hardest classes b/c of our own internal bias. I guess that means that I can say orgo at Rice was just as difficult if not harder...

I wouldn't doubt that orgo at Rice was just as hard or maybe even harder. But then Rice is also a really good school. I didn't mean to imply that orgo here was harder than at all other schools, but compared to the stuff that my friends at state schools and similar places are used to, the material we cover really is much more difficult and on top of it we face a much harsher curve. The point was that the grading system isnt going to buy you an A or even a B. It just keeps you from failing completly.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

As for dropping courses, my school has a policy of having a W on your transcript after 2 weeks if you drop a course. They recently made it so that after a month (not sure of the exact timing, but its usually around the first exam period), you CANNOT under any circumstances drop a course. This is another policy made to prevent grade inflation, and thus gain respect from graduate schools.

OK, here's the kicker. I did some of my pre-recs at a community college and even there, there was grade deflation. And you had ONE WEEK to drop a course without consequences. After one week, you got a W. And after four weeks, you got an F if you dropped and that F went on your transcript. If you retook a course, both grades show up on your transcript and BOTH grades are counted towards your GPA. The class average on my first Chem exam was a 48%. The class average at the end of the semester was a 53%. I worked my ass off for an A in that class and I was one of two people in a class of 40+ who got it. Let's hear again how community colleges are so much easier.