international dentists - prospects

toothmail

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    i have seen this topic on the dental forum but the people discussing it are mainly american. so maybe starting this thread here is not such a bad idea for us international ones....

    # how much do international dentists make annually? what are our long-term prospects?

    #how difficult is it to land a job when we start out?

    # is there a lot of bias against foreign dentists on the work front (indians in particular)?

    the answers to these could be based on experiences of our seniors who have passed out of schools and started practising.

    it seems really scary when u think of how many dentists are being churned out each year!

    i am sure a lot of us (especially those who have already been accepted into dental schools ) have done a fair share of research on this, so any input is appreciated! :)
     

    KAJALKIRAN

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      interesting thread!
      ok, this is MY point of view...
      1. the amount of money international dentists make is a very subjective question...the amount of money which a dentist makes is solely dependnt upon his/her clinical and entrepreunership skills.....yeah the confounding factors here are the difficult initial start-up, higher mal-practice insurance, disability insurance etc..but otherwise, the "international" shouldnt be a significant factor...
      2. pretty difficult compared to US citizens, but in an overall perspective...again this is a capitalistic market, and the job scene is mainly based on demands....so again not a very significant factor.
      3. bias--yes(as far as for what I've heard from...) this is mainly towards dentists in calif, where the patient actually questions the dentist's credibility.....
      ....scary about number of dentists being churned each year?? yu bet that! (thats pretty much the reason i wanna go back to SA, where I've learnt that the number of dentists we have is much less than a single state of India..:)
      however, the statistics from...(?? donno where, but you can google for it..) say that untill 2012, there is a requirement for dentists in the US, and there upon I GUESS they might think of some form of capping for intl grads...
      k'jal...
       

      toothlord

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        an interesting and important subject to all of us.

        1.variable:for a general dentist just after his graduation his income starts at 100K,this is a lot amount of money if we compare it to physician who has to pay a lot of money just for insurance,which is barely considered for dentist except off course OMFS.

        2.i agree with kajal that in calif its so hars because the clinical exam and i know someone who hardly found a part time job,in other state many of them have shortage od dentist,and aesthetic dentistry is uprising.

        3.i dont think so,why there should be a bias?against indians?go to any hospital and see how many indians besides african american ,health care doesent depend on your colour or background as i believe but your acheievements,this doesent mean that there arent racist here as everywhere else.
         
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          hi k`jal,

          scary about number of dentists being churned each year?? yu bet that! (thats pretty much the reason i wanna go back to SA, where I've learnt that the number of dentists we have is much less than a single state of India..
          I am wondering what SA is ?:confused: :confused:

          say that untill 2012, there is a requirement for dentists in the US, and there upon I GUESS they might think of some form of capping for intl grads...
          IS IT :( ......... good that atleast we have some time before we face the demand crisis .
           

          krishna

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            Hi friends,
            Its a real good thread.We should give a good thought before we go for a biiiiiiiiiig loan.
            The dentist whom I am working with, is doing good but not all that great.She has one or two patients schduled everyday but not busy the whole day.I `ve seen that the insurence doesn`t pay all the amount they opt and besides all the complexes in the neighbourhood have 1 or 2 clinics.Maintaining the clinic is very costly too. I remember her telling me that finding a job is more tough than setting up a private clinic on another loan.(she is an international dentist from somalia)
            Seeing all this daily I am sometimes in bias whether really to go ahead or not????But I `ve no option .This the only way for dentist in US.:(
            In India the conditions r more worser....it is totally saturated now and new people hardly have a place.


            Krishna.
             

            toothmail

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              hi all

              yeah i have heard that a lot of states are pretty saturated with dentists who barely get a patient or two a day. the problem is i dont know which states those are!!

              also maintaining a clinic (overhead etc.) becomes a major cutback on what we earn.

              i have heard of people earning like 70-80k a year while associates and some even less. and its really tuff to set up practice unless one has capital. so i guess initially being an associate is the way to go. but the earning potential seems so discouraging!

              does anyone subscribe to any dental journals? we might find some concrete survey statistics there on the demand for dentists in the US as well as income ranges. (but i guess these again would be based on american dentists).
               

              toothlord

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                i think you can check salary.com,they post the average income of every job,besides the dental thread discussed these subjects time ago.
                here it is:
                geographies.



                Data as of April 2004
                Base pay only

                california

                Dentist 25th%ile Median 75th%ile
                Los Angeles, CA $104,759 $121,958 $147,328
                IMPORTANT: Your pay can be dramatically affected by compensable factors




                Data as of April 2004
                Base pay only

                florida

                Dentist 25th%ile Median 75th%ile
                Daytona Beach, FL $84,501 $98,374 $118,839
                IMPORTANT: Your pay can be dramatically affected by compensable factors such as employer size, industry, employee credentials, years of experience and others.



                Data as of April 2004
                Base pay only

                illinois

                Dentist 25th%ile Median 75th%ile
                Chicago, IL $101,945 $118,682 $143,371


                those data are for general dentists,and to be more sure you can check www.salary.com
                enter the job title.
                 

                toothlord

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                  compared to physicians:

                  Data as of April 2004
                  Base pay only



                  Physician - Generalist 25th%ile Median 75th%ile
                  Los Angeles, CA $137,175 $153,431 $178,617
                  IMPORTANT: Your pay can be dramatically affected by compensable factors such as employer size, industry, employee credentials, years of experience and others.


                  besides malpractice
                   

                  KAJALKIRAN

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                    well, these statistics doesen't take into account, of the age of the dentists, years of practice (experience etc ) gender (females put in less hours per week than males)....so these can be confounding...as i said earlier, i feel that the income mainly depends upon your rapport, clinical and entrepreunership skills....any one with a good combo of these, no matter where you graduate from can have a good practice.....at the same time, i feel money shouldn't be the only goal or the yard-stick of any profession...!
                     

                    smi

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                      Originally posted by krishna
                      Hi friends,
                      The dentist whom I am working with, is doing good but not all that great.She has one or two patients schduled everyday but not busy the whole day.I `ve seen that the insurence doesn`t pay all the amount they opt and besides all the complexes in the neighbourhood have 1 or 2 clinics.Maintaining the clinic is very costly too. I remember her telling me that finding a job is more tough than setting up a private clinic on another loan.(she is an international dentist from somalia)
                      Krishna.


                      Krishna,

                      In which state you and your dentist are working? How long has she been practicing? Thanks.
                       
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                      Ann 03

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                        Originally posted by meggs
                        If this helps anybody......
                        I met a dentist in CA, licensed trough bench test, that makes around 85,000 per year. That dentist has been licensed for a couple years and works under work visa in a poor area.
                        is tht good or bad for ca?does she/he work independently or as an associate.
                        i was also wondering abt this, apart frm working as a clinician, what others jobs are open for a dentist with a dds, related to dental field.
                        is thr any health management course like a proper mba and wht are the requirements for it(i mean do we need any prerequisites for such a course?
                         

                        toothlord

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                          Originally posted by meggs
                          If this helps anybody......
                          I met a dentist in CA, licensed trough bench test, that makes around 85,000 per year. That dentist has been licensed for a couple years and works under work visa in a poor area.
                          meggs what i understod from your post that this is considered very good as a beginning and for a foriegn graduate in a poor area,is that right?
                           

                          toothmail

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                            i think the difference is that CA is pretty saturated with dentists and so the income is also proportionately less.

                            ann03, u can do an mba in health or hospital management. u need to take either GRE or GMAT depending on the school. and most good schools ask for work experience. but right now the market for mbas is not all that great it looks like. the fees/tuition can be pretty high too.
                             

                            Ann 03

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                              thanks toothmail. 85,000 is good but i didnt know if it was good in ca:D .didnt think abt the poorer sections.
                              right now if someone gives me a 85,000 job and a work permit:D i will be more than happy:D
                               

                              bpl77

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                                I do know two foreign trained dentists who took RT exam and earning 85 k .Dont know how much DDS graduates make.
                                Its a little bit tough to get a job after DDS when compared to bench route because most of the dentists think you are overqualified after DDS and they dont want overqualified people working as an associate for them since they want to limit procedures to be done by an associate.
                                atleast this is wat i learnt from some people.

                                sang
                                 

                                Meggs

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                                  Originally posted by toothlord
                                  meggs what i understod from your post that this is considered very good as a beginning and for a foriegn graduate in a poor area,is that right?

                                  I've no idea, I just stated the facts I know.

                                  Since that dentist only has work visa, then the job must be associate. On work visas, you must work for somebody.
                                   

                                  kpat

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                                    Originally posted by bpl77
                                    Its a little bit tough to get a job after DDS when compared to bench route because most of the dentists think you are overqualified after DDS and they dont want overqualified people working as an associate for them since they want to limit procedures to be done by an associate.
                                    sang
                                    ______________________________________________

                                    This is ridiculous!!!

                                    Having a DDS is an over qualification to practice dentistry??? Since when ?
                                     

                                    toothmail

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                                      Originally posted by bpl77
                                      I do know two foreign trained dentists who took RT exam and earning 85 k .Dont know how much DDS graduates make.
                                      Its a little bit tough to get a job after DDS when compared to bench route because most of the dentists think you are overqualified after DDS and they dont want overqualified people working as an associate for them since they want to limit procedures to be done by an associate.
                                      atleast this is wat i learnt from some people.

                                      sang

                                      so this is basically just about california right?
                                       
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                                      Ann 03

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                                        Originally posted by bpl77
                                        I do know two foreign trained dentists who took RT exam and earning 85 k .Dont know how much DDS graduates make.
                                        Its a little bit tough to get a job after DDS when compared to bench route because most of the dentists think you are overqualified after DDS and they dont want overqualified people working as an associate for them since they want to limit procedures to be done by an associate.
                                        atleast this is wat i learnt from some people.

                                        sang
                                        :wow: without dds we r not qualfied even to treat patients, with dds we r overqualified!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                                         

                                        toothlord

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                                          as we did agree before,it seems so variable.:)
                                          i met some dentist working in associates and they are so happy and must of them became partners after couple of years,they all said that at the beginning our salary was good but not as expected but later on they got higher and higher.
                                           

                                          bpl77

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                                            I dont think we should generalize this and I really dont know whether this happens only in calif.. but I just want to let you guys know that there are some people like this too.


                                            sang
                                             

                                            drshy44

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                                              Guys,lets not forget the key factor of experince.I know a dentist in the city od chicago making over a million dollars.But,here is the catch.He works 12 hrs atleast,does the best cases like bridge,has a the prctise in one of the worst neighbourhoods in the country,and honestly admits that he treats his patients not as service but as business.So the key here is skills in various forms.I was wroking under this dentist,as an assistant and believe me fellas,private practise is nothing but business.In India,they call healthcare as healthcare services,here we are healthcare managers.That puts in the cpitalistic world.So,everythign is just luck and timing and work. :thumbup:
                                               

                                              dentaldoc

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                                                drshy44 said:
                                                Guys,lets not forget the key factor of experince.I know a dentist in the city od chicago making over a million dollars.But,here is the catch.He works 12 hrs atleast,does the best cases like bridge,has a the prctise in one of the worst neighbourhoods in the country,and honestly admits that he treats his patients not as service but as business.So the key here is skills in various forms.I was wroking under this dentist,as an assistant and believe me fellas,private practise is nothing but business.In India,they call healthcare as healthcare services,here we are healthcare managers.That puts in the cpitalistic world.So,everythign is just luck and timing and work. :thumbup:

                                                I very well agree with ur practical fact! :)
                                                 

                                                dentaldoc

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                                                  pendejodo said:
                                                  hello, I am agree everything is skills,,,,,,,,I am working in tufts university in boston some dentist have skills but there are poor . you also have to be very good with money.....................va

                                                  Hi pendejodo,
                                                  I was wondering which country are you from?.
                                                  Did you join Newyork university recently?
                                                  If so do u mind sharing your Toefl scores & Nbde scores?
                                                  Just curious :)

                                                  By the way welcome to SDN :)
                                                   

                                                  GKG

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                                                    I read on one of the threads that the schools having large IDP programs are in the states needing more dentists , so going by that ,NY ,MA ,Penn. are short on dentists making them the most suitable places to start working or looking for a job?????
                                                    Considering that a specialist makes more money than a DDS and the amount of time and money it takes to become a specialist ,is it worth it??????( unless one is absoluetly passionate about a particular speciality, in which case no amount of time or hardwork counts!!!!!!)
                                                    A little off track though but do people get into speciality program immediately after DMD or do they practise for a while to gain experience(and damage recovery :laugh: )?????
                                                     

                                                    drshy44

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                                                      First of all the states mentioned which has more no of IDP programs does not define their necessity.Notice the fact all these schools are pvt and they need to make money to survive.That is the plain fact ,in simple words ,itis their need for money that prompts them to run these programs.It is capitalism in full force.
                                                      You are right about specialists but ,things are getting strained ,so there are more ppl trying to get advanced degrees.Also ,as a general trend graduate enrollment has climbed up since economy is doing not so well.I mean ,if you cant get a decent job or decent pay as well go back to school.That might be one reason,the other is that lot graduates coming out of school are ending up with low pays.This is hear say,but I kinda believe it as the general market trend is that way.
                                                      I think some folks go in right after,especially to defer loan payments,not to lose the age advantage and probably more better reasons too.But ,the bottom line is dentistry is extremly competitive now and it is hard to make the money ,the same way ppl were doiing back in the days.It will be interesting to see all these ppl doing IDP now in few yrs and finding out how they are doing.
                                                       
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