Investment banking vs. doctor

[FightingIrish01]

I have a dumb, inappropriate, question dealing with salaries and I am not asking about what career path I or anyone else should choose but am simply inquiring about statistics.

I was wondering in terms of the long run, who receives a higher salary, a specialized physician (i.e. surgery, derm, cardio, radiology) or an investment banker? Also, hard work is almost a guarantee to acheive your expectations of becoming a successful surgeon, etc.. How is the success rate of those who want to be money-making investment bankers after they get their MBAS from top business schools? Is it as difficult as becoming a CEO of a successful company. I am just under the impression that some "business" positions i.e. CEOs, investment banking 10x crapshoot (+ luck) than becoming a particular doctor based on hard work.

Thanks.

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[maestro1625]

it's all relative... a physician in a place like Beverly Hills can make 5x more money than a physician in Flint, Michigan or Gary Indiana of the same specialty.

 

[Funky]

There's no actual figure of what are my chances from B-School. There are just too many factors to know if you'll place within a top Ibanking firm like goldman sachs.

 

[DrBowtie]

I'll put it this way:
The ceiling in business >>>>>>> the ceiling in medicine
The basement in medicine >>> basement in business

 

[Dr2Bee]

I'll put it this way:
The ceiling in business >>>>>>> the ceiling in medicine
The basement in medicine >>> basement in business

nice analogy

 

[Funky]

I'll put it this way:
The ceiling in business >>>>>>> the ceiling in medicine
The basement in medicine >>> basement in business

I must applaud the wisdom of BowTie once again.

 

[FightingIrish01]

wow I like that analaogy...but is it hard to land a top position at a top company as opposed to landing a top residency?

 

[DrBowtie]

wow I like that analaogy...but is it hard to land a top position at a top company as opposed to landing a top residency?

Both are hard as hell to land, but business is much more performance/results based. Turnover is also much greater.

 

[Funky]

wow I like that analaogy...but is it hard to land a top position at a top company as opposed to landing a top residency?

Landing a residency is more performance on your step I, grades, LOR, research, and AOA

 

[stat3113]

Nice analogy. I think it would be a similar situation with Law.

The ceiling in Law >> Ceiling in Medicine
Basement in Medicine >> Basement in Law

I.e. a highly ranked graduate from a top law school will work at a top firm, and become partner within 7-10 years making 1 million/yr

Whereas it is a relatively smaller proportion of doctors who reach that level.
I would think most top surgeons, cardiologists, etc, flatten out around 400-500k.

But the question is should we be looking at ceilings and basements? or would it be wiser to compare averages/medians (i.e. expected values)

If you check out the Occupational Outlook Handbook (http://www.bls.gov/oco/home.htm), I think you will see average of doctors is pretty much the highest across the board. But no one aims for average, so folks going into business/law are clearly shooting for the sky/ceiling.

 

[zbruinz]

If you can make money in business, you will be handsomely rewarded. If you can't, then you won't be. It's as simple as that.

 

[evade]

If you've got the aptitude and put in the hours, I-banking will almost undoubtedly pay better. However, I've never known anyone who stuck with it for more than three years, because the hours and the business culture are SO punishing. Yeah, medicine is punishing too (look at me: I'm just starting 3rd year and I'm awake at 4:30 in the morning to write this reply), but it gets better, and at least there's some job satisfaction that goes beyond helping the rich get richer.

 

[LifetimeDoc]

If you have to ask this question, choose business. You going to have to love medicine because you like medicine if you are going to retain your sanity in the coming years. If you choose medicine and then later find out you aren't making as much as you thought you'd make for the work you put into it, you're going to be a sad and bitter person. If you go into medicine because you like it, then if you get a high salary, it's just icing on the cake. If you don't, you'll still be happy.

 

[GoSouthernGo]

If I'm looking at an income of 500K, I'm not even going to compare ceilings. I'd rather compare the job itself. I'd much, MUCH rather be a physician than an investment banker.

And honestly, if you compare them yourself and find investment banking more intriguing, get out of medicine.

 

[Karnage]

For every prospective investment banker, there are thousands who don't make it. While most doctors are fairly well off, there are a lot of people in the business world who aren't. Couple that with the average work week of 70+ hours for a i-banker, the constant travel and other nuisances, and I'll take being a doctor any day. I wanted to be an i-banker at one point, too. Still getting my finance degree.

Now, managing a hedge fund is a different thing. Taking a nice $40 million cut off the top of a billion dollar hedge fund on January 1st of every year is a nice way to make money. Probably harder than i-banking to make it big in, though.

 

[cleareyedguy]

A few numbers:

Business oriented lawyers in NYC make $1-4 million/year if they make partner at a top 20 law firm. But, for every 30 incoming associates, only a few might eventually make partner, while the rest go on to become contract lawyers or work for a company, generally making far less. And who are all of those extruded associates? they were, generally speaking, in the top part of their top 10 law school class. They do work awfully hard, though their evenings include free yogurt machines on the floor, free sushi deliveries, and a free ride home. For the typical lawyer from a typical law school in a typical town (as opposed to the Harvard law school kid who comes to New York to bill 250 hours/month--that's bill a serious client, not to "take call" that includes sleeping and schmoozing), the financial rewards are far less and equivalent or less than the typical physician.

By the way, in medicine, there is relatively little correlation between being a good doctor and making money. You can graduate in the bottom third from a totally humdrum medical school (ie, you'd never get interviewed by a top residency program or, if you were coming from the equivalent spot in law, you'd never get interviewed by Cravath or Wachtell), but if you are entrepenurial and focus on money to the exclusion of compassion (or if you do procedures that are either well compensated by insurance or command private money), then you can make significantly more money than an academic researcher or even an academic clinician who spends time taking care of three dimensional people and who teaches, writes, and reads and whose academic performance was far better than the first guy.

That is an additional issue, by the way: most of the best doctors are (in my opinion) on a medical school faculty, a group that is often the largest group of faculty at a university (swamping the numbers of English or math professors). It's extremely hard to get on a law school faculty, though those jobs pay much less than what that particular person might command in the private world.

Anyway, as said, if you are debating, get an MBA and leave medicine to physicians.

 

[MossPoh]

it's all relative... a physician in a place like Beverly Hills can make 5x more money than a physician in Flint, Michigan or Gary Indiana of the same specialty.

That isn't necessarily true. Physician salaries actually tend to be higher in underserved or undesireable areas. I consider Gary pretty undesireable.


To answer the question, search for the answer. This question pops up about once every 3 months.... there is this huge mystique with i-banking. People assume you jump right out and become a millionaire.....doesn't quite work that way. Very high stress, tons of work, and no guarentee of success. You also have to be pretty top of the top to make the big incomes....or lucky. Regular business majors don't jump in making millions of dollars. Most of those business people you see around campus will start around 35 or 40k and work at that place for 2 or 3 years before leveraging experiences for a slightly higher paying job. The averages ones would be lucky to peak at 60k, and seemingly random people (not always the smartest) will get huge promotions, or the smarter ones will get an advanced degree. The coveted 6 figure mark isn't as easy as people like to think...although you'd never know on these boards since someone always knows a person who was making 300k with benefits at 40 hours a week or some crap.

I was fortunate to get a starting salary offer at around 70k right out of college if I wanted it. Great benefits....consultant gig. I would never be home and would have to spend the next 3-5 years flying around and living out of a suitcase...and dealing with clients who have no clue what they want. (Kind of like medicine in that respect I guess). These fields work hard for the cash they get, and it comes at a price, although the it is the whole grass is always greener on the other side spiel.

 

[etf]

you can work for an investment bank or law firm as a physician, but bankers and lawyers can't play doctor without going after another degree.

 

[littlealex]

I have a friend who started IB two years ago when he graduated. Last year he made about $300,000.... 120,000 salary plus 180,000 bonus.


When it comes down to it though, we do this because we love it. Hell, I'd work as a doctor for 70k a year.

 

[JRockdown]

As stated before everyone knows an I-banker that pulls in some serious paper. However, for everyone of those I know, I know a large number that didn't get a spot and then some that had to go to smaller firms.

On the flip side do you know any MD's that don't have a job? Or do you know any MD's that don't have a pretty solid paying job?

In the end you should enjoy what you do....if you do "you will never have to work a day in your life." - Derivative of Confucious

 

[Vvandenn]

I have a friend who started IB two years ago when he graduated. Last year he made about $300,000.... 120,000 salary plus 180,000 bonus.


When it comes down to it though, we do this because we love it. Hell, I'd work as a doctor for 70k a year.

 

[sirus_virus]

I have a friend who started IB two years ago when he graduated. Last year he made about $300,000.... 120,000 salary plus 180,000 bonus.


When it comes down to it though, we do this because we love it. Hell, I'd work as a doctor for 70k a year.

where exactly did you pull that 70k out of? How about 30k?

Have you ever done an entrance interview for Stafford loans before? Remember how it helps you calculate how much you need to make yearly in other to borrow a certain amount. If you plan on borrowing 130K (average med student debt), you ought to have a future salary of at least 140K to pay it off in 15 years. Otherwise, you will face dire financial problems. So basically the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT is telling you that you better earn at least 140K or it's your ass.

Good luck with your 70k adventure, and I hope your future family buys into your philosophy. Otherwise, medicine might be the only ‘love' you will ever have.

 

[Sir Buckethead]

Presumably, in a country where the average physician made 70K, med school would be cheaper.

 

[dutchman]

I have a dumb, inappropriate, question dealing with salaries and I am not asking about what career path I or anyone else should choose but am simply inquiring about statistics.

I was wondering in terms of the long run, who receives a higher salary, a specialized physician (i.e. surgery, derm, cardio, radiology) or an investment banker? Also, hard work is almost a guarantee to acheive your expectations of becoming a successful surgeon, etc.. How is the success rate of those who want to be money-making investment bankers after they get their MBAS from top business schools? Is it as difficult as becoming a CEO of a successful company. I am just under the impression that some "business" positions i.e. CEOs, investment banking 10x crapshoot (+ luck) than becoming a particular doctor based on hard work.

Thanks.

When it comes to money, Investment banking beats medicine hands down . Other fields surging way ahead of medicien are: dentistry, pharmacy, software engineering, law, nursing and college profs.

 

[JRockdown]

where exactly did you pull that 70k out of? How about 30k?

Have you ever done an entrance interview for Stafford loans before? Remember how it helps you calculate how much you need to make yearly in other to borrow a certain amount. If you plan on borrowing 130K (average med student debt), you ought to have a future salary of at least 140K to pay it off in 15 years. Otherwise, you will face dire financial problems. So basically the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT is telling you that you better earn at least 140K or it's your ass.

Good luck with your 70k adventure, and I hope your future family buys into your philosophy. Otherwise, medicine might be the only ‘love' you will ever have.

If you are up on rates, etc. Most docs are amortizing their loans over 30 (or should) because they get a great rate and can usually earn more in an investment portfolio. Which would indicate that currently the loans are costing them less than expected. Over 30 years on 130k you would pay 10k a year about 780 a month. You don't need to make 140k to save 10k a year. I can personally vouch for saving that much living in one of the most expensive cities in the country (San Francisco) making well under half of 140k.

Plus a big portion (interest) is a tax write off, making the net cost a little lower yet.

 

[littlealex]

I actually just randomly pulled 70k out of my ass, sorry. However, despite not doing the math for the amount of student loans, the point I was trying to make was the amount that I would be willing to work for.

As for the student loans, well, not everyone take out loans to goto medical school.

 

[stbxTechie]

But no one aims for average, so folks going into business/law are clearly shooting for the sky/ceiling.

Plenty of people aim for average. Some of them go into busines/law, and I bet a few of them even go into medicine - for every med student gunning for a hot specialty, there have got to be a few who are just glad to be becoming a doctor and who are actively looking for FM or Peds.

 

[stbxTechie]

Plus a big portion (interest) is a tax write off, making the net cost a little lower yet.

The tax writeoff on student loan interest is limited to like $2500 in interest each year. It's not much.

http://www.irs.gov/publications/p970/ch04.html#d0e5087

Your student loan interest deduction for 2006 is generally the smaller of:
$2,500, or
The interest you paid in 2006.

PLUS, to add insult to injury, it phases out at relatively low incomes:

http://www.irs.gov/publications/p970/ch04.html#d0e5127

The amount of your student loan interest deduction is phased out (gradually reduced) if your modified adjusted gross income (MAGI) is between $50,000 and $65,000 ($105,000 and $135,000 if you file a joint return). You cannot take a student loan interest deduction if your MAGI is $65,000 or more ($135,000 or more if you file a joint return).

In other words, if you're a single doctor, you're not going to get a cent of that deduction post-residency unless your income is WAY lower than average, and the only way you'll see it post-residency if married is if (A) you have a non-working spouse, and (B) you're making a bit less than average.

Unless there's some alternate tax deduction for medical student loan interest that I don't know about...

(On the plus side, the student loan interest is an "above the line" deduction, so you can claim it even if you don't otherwise itemize.)

 

[JRockdown]

The tax writeoff on student loan interest is limited to like $2500 in interest each year. It's not much.

http://www.irs.gov/publications/p970/ch04.html#d0e5087


PLUS, to add insult to injury, it phases out at relatively low incomes:

http://www.irs.gov/publications/p970/ch04.html#d0e5127


In other words, if you're a single doctor, you're not going to get a cent of that deduction post-residency unless your income is WAY lower than average, and the only way you'll see it post-residency if married is if (A) you have a non-working spouse, and (B) you're making a bit less than average.

Unless there's some alternate tax deduction for medical student loan interest that I don't know about...

(On the plus side, the student loan interest is an "above the line" deduction, so you can claim it even if you don't otherwise itemize.)

Appreciate the clarification for others. Clearly you are correct with the phase out etc, but the point of the initial statement was that deduction makes it a little less expensive usually. This would inevitably/hopefully end after residency. Point being, if we are arguing numbers, it is a "cost benefit" to a otherwise expensive student loan.

I should have clarified: "in the beginning it is a big portion interest to be written off overall making it a little better."

Kudos on understanding the tax law, but really not the point of financial analysis in overall cost.

 

[MedGrl@2022]

What about after malpractice insurance and taxes are taken out? What is the net income for the average physician?

 

[munnabhai]

where exactly did you pull that 70k out of? How about 30k?

Have you ever done an entrance interview for Stafford loans before? Remember how it helps you calculate how much you need to make yearly in other to borrow a certain amount. If you plan on borrowing 130K (average med student debt), you ought to have a future salary of at least 140K to pay it off in 15 years. Otherwise, you will face dire financial problems. So basically the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT is telling you that you better earn at least 140K or it’s your ass.

Good luck with your 70k adventure, and I hope your future family buys into your philosophy. Otherwise, medicine might be the only ‘love’ you will ever have.

OED's new definition for the word: pwn3d.

 

[Law2Doc]

I'll put it this way:
The ceiling in business >>>>>>> the ceiling in medicine
The basement in medicine >>> basement in business

Agree. The basic concept behind business/finance/investment is that you have to be willing to take risks to earn greater rewards. So the ceiling is potentially infinite, as is the distance you can fall. You can be a failure, you can go bankrupt, you can lose everything and throw yourself out of a window (as many on Wall Street did during the Great Crash). But you also have the potential to make bank become one of what they described in the book Liar's Poker (still a classic read) as a "Big Swinging Dick". If you really love money and your goal is to make as much of it as possible, and you are willing to gamble on yourself then I banking is probably where it is at. Medicine is a particularly bad career for such personalities because the ceilings are relatively low and while there isn't as much risk (the average physician earns six digits, after relatively lengthy school and training), you simply aren't going to have the same shot to make your mark.

So you only really do medicine if you are excited about or interested in being a clinician. Salaries have been flat or in decline in most specialties over the last decade, while hours have been increasing. Still comfortable, but not uber rich anymore. So the financially motivated types tend to find happier hunting grounds elsewhere.

 

[deleted77919]

If you are up on rates, etc. Most docs are amortizing their loans over 30 (or should) because they get a great rate and can usually earn more in an investment portfolio. Which would indicate that currently the loans are costing them less than expected.

Currently federal loans are fixed at 6.8%. After expenses it is difficult to significantly beat this rate through relatively low risk investments.

The days of 2.5% loans are long gone.

 

[JRockdown]

Hence the word, refinance.

 

[deleted77919]

Hence the word, refinance.

Consolidating loans makes sense, but won't slash 3% off of your loan rates. Are student loans a good deal? Well, they are a better deal than you will get from any other source, but they aren't so good that you can borrow extra money an invest it. In prior years it was possible to borrow loans at rates well below inflation, in these cases it made sense to carry the loans out as long as possible. These days this is by no means a slam dunk.

 

[Jew Alcindor]

Put it this way; the average salary at Goldman Sachs (of everybody, including secretaries and whatnot) is $521,000.

 

[TheRealMD]

Put it this way; the average salary at Goldman Sachs (of everybody, including secretaries and whatnot) is $521,000.

Considering that a CEO makes millions and it's a VERY reputable firm, that's reasonable and almost expected. It's the same as taking the average salaries from people who graduated from the top 5 med schools in the nation and them comparing that to an average including all med schools. The latter is likely to be much lower.

 

[Jew Alcindor]

You're right of course. I think the guy who posted the thread was asking about people from top schools though. The majority of them will end up at high-end firms.

Does anybody have any statistics on this?

 

[TheRealMD]

I guess I should just answer the OPs question.

You can make more money in business, however, you can make even MORE money doing other things like being an actress, playing professional sports, or any other celebrity.

The reason why many people choose to be doctors is not because they lack the will to work, but because it is much more likely that their hard work will be rewarded. Sure, if you work just as hard in business school as med school, you can go places, but because there is SO much subjectivity in picking the best applicant, applying to a job in the business world is a true crapshoot. At least in med school apps, there are 2 things that you can count on to get you places: GPA and MCAT.

I find that for monetary purposes, doing well in business is more the exception than the rule compared to medicine, and betting on being the exception in any process is one dice roll too many.

As for being a CEO at a company, it's incredibly hard. Usually you start out as a CEO of some startup that made it big, then trade up to a better company over and over again.

 

[Meatwad]

I guess I should just answer the OPs question.

You can make more money in business, however, you can make even MORE money doing other things like being an actress, playing professional sports, or any other celebrity.

Gotta disagree there. A-list actors/actresses/directors still don't even get close to the net worth of top businesspeople. How many actors are on the world's richest list? Probably Spielburg, and that's about it.

Anyway, as far as I-banking and stuff like that, it seems way harder to make it to the top. With medicine, you can go to any school (so it seems), do awesome, make friends, and land a competitive residency. Then, through your networking skills, get into a nice practice and make big bucks. From what I've heard, I-bankers making the big big bucks all went to the top schools. That looks like less of a level playing field.

 

[nailz]

Do both......go to med school on an HPSP scholarship through the military and take out loans and invest them wisely.

Remember that the top business schools expect you to have an avg of 8 yrs work experience before they will accept you for an MBA. Then when you get out you might make about 100K if you got your MBA at Harvard. The avg. for all MBA grads is about 70-80K and then you are a peon that has to work your butt off and kiss some rear to even have a chance to make it to the top.

Once you graduate from med school, you work a few years and you are at the top.

 

[uzybear]

Other fields surging way ahead of medicien are............ software engineering.......... and college profs.

ROFLMAO


dude you can't be that dense, can you? this is one of the most misguided and ignorant posts i've ever seen

 

[FightingIrish01]

Just wanted to clarify a few questions...

1.) Sorry, but what does it mean to "kiss some rear" or "suck up to the boss" what are instances or scenarios that you could depict as to how this occurs in the business world? Sorry for being so naiive.

2.) Also, how is this for an idea. Just as a career path during/after medical school, can I get into an MBA program (night school) say at a top ten MBA school? This being the fact that if I had zero undergrad business courses except one in perhaps economics, but other than that, I have a solid (near 4.0 GPA) + exceptional GMAT scores. Afterall, I can pursue my residency later and I hear night business school is awesome and I have a friend who attends.

3.) Well, this applies generally to business, where the quality/institution you attended matters. If you get into a top 10 business school and do well, isnt that a guarantee of making half-million or more considering your connections, degree, and work ethic. I mean surely, if you mentioned about people at top ten med schools, I would guess most land into a competitive residency.

Thanks

 

[deleted103644]

Do both......go to med school on an HPSP scholarship through the military and take out loans and invest them wisely.

Remember that the top business schools expect you to have an avg of 8 yrs work experience before they will accept you for an MBA. Then when you get out you might make about 100K if you got your MBA at Harvard. The avg. for all MBA grads is about 70-80K and then you are a peon that has to work your butt off and kiss some rear to even have a chance to make it to the top.

Once you graduate from med school, you work a few years and you are at the top.

Who needs an MBA? I believe the OP was talking about I-banking vs. medicine. If you're going into a field for the money, there is no reason to choose medicine over i-banking at all. I-bankers in NYC make a minimum of $55k per year right out of college, not including bonuses - which can easily be 100% (or more) of their stated salary at better firms. Friends of mine who became i-bankers are already in the low to mid 6 figures after working for only 2 years straight out of college. That said, the attrition rate is very high and the hours are very long. I-bankers don't need to go for an MBA until they have worked for a few years for wages significantly higher than a resident's. At that point, if you have a strong record from a decent i-banking firm, you will certainly get a 6 figure starting salary with the potential for huge bonuses.

If you're smart, the going price for your soul is pretty steep.

 

[JacobSilge]

ROFLMAO


dude you can't be that dense, can you? this is one of the most misguided and ignorant posts i've ever seen

Yes, I was just going to comment on this very post. I'll concede that lawyers from top schools are probably doing better than physicians, dentistry has been growing and surely beats medicine on a per hour basis and overall compensation for general dentistry beats general IM/FP/Peds by a small margin, pharmacists have very good starting salaries, and there was that one post in the residency forum about a job listing for an overnight nurse at UCSF being having a higher salary than a new (presumably academic) attending. But COLLEGE PROFESSORS!!! Seriously? When the doom and gloom people say stuff like this it always puts my heart at ease that I'm not financially ruining myself by going to med school.

 

[deleted103644]

To play devil's advocate: for the hours they work, college professors are paid fantastically well - if they get tenure. If you get a tenured position, you usually get 6 figures and MONTHS of vacation each year. As a doctor, you probably won't see that much vacation time until you retire.

 

[MossPoh]

To play devil's advocate: for the hours they work, college professors are paid fantastically well - if they get tenure. If you get a tenured position, you usually get 6 figures and MONTHS of vacation each year. As a doctor, you probably won't see that much vacation time until you retire.

Also depends on what area you are in....not to mention many people are in their mid-40s or later before they reach that point. You do have to constantly produce before hand. Yes, it is pretty cush when you get there but for certain areas it is a long long long road. I know a guy, very very smart, applied linguistics ph.D. and can't even get a damn job...he is 40 and living in student housing just churning out papers. Very laid back, but I'd prefer to make more than 14k a year when I'm 40.

Jew (somehow I feel anti-semitic with that even though I'm jewish), If you look at the world's top richest people..many of them did NOT go to a high end business school. Many of them just created a product at the right place and time, and worked very hard. In fact, a large majority of them do not even have a college degree, and I believe 2 (maybe 3) do not have a high school degree. Once you get to a point down the list they have a running start and inherited the money from their parents, at which point they make a couple of good decisions and voila..billionaires. So, if you want to be a billionaire be too damn smart for your own good, notice a missing niche, drop out of school, and focus all your time on that. Of course, you could just end up like Matthew Leskow (however it is spelled) on t.v..... Also, if you do look at the top athletes (Michael Schumacher, Tiger Woods, etc) they are making crazy amounts of money by marketing products, and much of it is not tied up stocks. I mean, without a doubt business people make more than actors at the top level...but at that point you have so much money it is ungodly. At one point, if I could trade my life with any person it probably would've been Brad Pitt. He had filthy money, nearly any girl he wanted, and a pretty slick job....but then he met angelina and is sleeping in a tent with 46 kids that aren't his own. Oh well.

I stand by my decision that the best job ever would be a pretty good professional golfer. You can play for so long and make some solid money all for jet setting around to the world's most beautiful places. Or a kicker for a pro football team....Go out, kick a few times, sit on the bench, get front row seats to the games, and make a couple hundred grand in the process. Sounds pretty laid back to me. Screw medicine, I'm going to go practice field goals now!

 

[Law2Doc]

2.) Also, how is this for an idea. Just as a career path during/after medical school, can I get into an MBA program (night school) say at a top ten MBA school? This being the fact that if I had zero undergrad business courses except one in perhaps economics, but other than that, I have a solid (near 4.0 GPA) + exceptional GMAT scores. Afterall, I can pursue my residency later and I hear night business school is awesome and I have a friend who attends.

See Johnny Drama's (2am) post above. You are making the common mistake of thinking the MBA is a degree required to get into business. In fact it is not a professional degree, like law, medicine, dentistry etc. It is really meant to be an "add on" degree for folks already in business. Which is why most of the better MBA programs require several years of work experience before applying and why the majority of MBAs are paid for by employers, not individuals. And MBA is a great degree to let folks take the next step in terms of management/promotion, but not really the best degree to get you in the door (except perhaps in management consulting). There are many joint MD/MBA programs and these tend to count your anticipated residency as your prior work experience requirement. However these degrees far more often leave you in better position to get a job in the healthcare or insurance industry than in finance/I banking. If you really wanted to get into I banking your best paths tend to be starting out at the analyst/broker/research non-MBA finance/credit positions, get a few years experience and wow your employers, go to an MBA program on their dime and then become a managing director (an "MD" in the finance world ) As for postponing residency for a "do it yourself MBA", it is not a good idea unless you are in a joint degree program -- screws up your match and puts a lot at risk. And while a few top business schools now offer night classes, the night MBA programs assume you have a resume enhancing day job -- residency is not something you would be able to do along with this so you would have to get some business job for a couple of years (the night MBA programs usually take longer than full time or joint degree programs BTW), or else your resume would leave future finance/banking places wanting and wondering. It just makes no sense to do it this way.

You have to realize that the MBA itself doesn't qualify you to "do" anything and the MD thus doesn't enhance it. Your work experience is what really gets you looked at by the firms because it shows the leadership, teamwork, managing people experiences. So someone with these skills has a leg up over someone with paper degrees. The paper degree means less in business than in the professions. It is expected for certain career advancement but not going to get you in the door or let you stay in. Read some of the dozens of classic banking books and get a feel for the work your way up from the trenches attitude that abounds in that business.

If you have a specific job requiring an MD/MBA in mind, then certainly apply for joint degrees (don't try to create one yourself by playing around with residency). You will have to have a compelling reason to sell yourself at interviews -- the "I want to earn a lot of money as a banker" notion won't get you into med school. But if I banking is the target and high income is your goal, you probably won't make more money by spending 4+ years getting the MD -- you will have a better chance investing the 4+ years directly into your employment history at a firm and let them pay for your business degree later down the road.

And no, it won't be easy -- you will work as hard or harder to succeed on this road, pull as many all nighters, log as many hours. But if you are good and lucky (the economy plays a big role in your success/failure in business), your income can be dramatically higher. It's about calculated risk. Medicine is not risky but has more substantial income ceilings. Business has no ceiling, but also a lot further to fall. So decide what kind of person you are.

 

[take the shot]

ROFLMAO


dude you can't be that dense, can you? this is one of the most misguided and ignorant posts i've ever seen

Actually, this post is right on target. My husband is a physician and he has told me if he had to do it again he would go into business. If you are going into medicine to make money, think again! You will work your a** off, sacrifice an amazing number of years, play time, and depending on which specialty you choose could make as little as $90K/yr (eg/ pediatrics). A friend of mine who is an ID fellow was just offered $92K/yr in a university setting, no joke...how disgusting is that after all her years of work. At the same time, a surgical PA I know was just offered $106K/yr to work at a hospital on the neurosurgery team. Clearly, there are certain medical specialties that pay more than others. You really need to love this profession to stick it out when it gets tough. Do you really want your family to be taken care of by a doc who only got into this for the money? I have spoken with a shocking number of med students and residents who told me if they had to do it over they would not go into medicine, that they had no idea what it was really about, but they stick it out because they are in significant debt with school loans.

 

[Law2Doc]

I have spoken with a shocking number of med students and residents who told me if they had to do it over they would not go into medicine, that they had no idea what it was really about, but they stick it out because they are in significant debt with school loans.

Yeah, this is basically why schools mandate clinical exposure and pay so much attention to the "why medicine?" type questions. You really need to do your research and talk to young physicians before launching down this path. It is not a career for everyone, and you have to like the work itself, not just perceived perqs that may or may not come with it. Things have definitely changed in this industry over the past couple of decades and are likely to continue. While dutchman's views are sometimes a bit overpessimistic in terms of salary and hours, he has good and informed reason to think this way. This is no longer your father's oldsmobile. So do your research, don't look at the dude, parent, uncle, family friend. who got in 30 years ago and assume you can replicate his success. You likely can't. Talk to someone 3-5 years out of residency if at all possible. They frequently will tell you that although they like what they are doing, they might not recommend it to everybody, or might not have done it had they an opportunity to do it over.