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Invitation for INTELLECTUAL banter

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - DO' started by OldManDave, Apr 10, 1999.

  1. OldManDave

    OldManDave Fossil Bouncer Emeritus
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    I am quite certain many of you will cringe in that I potentially may be issuing an open invitation for the immaturity that MOST posters here despise. I beg to differ, while I will refrain from predicting whether there will ever be a definitive answer to the DO vs MD conundrum...I do believe there are many, many valuable things to be learned from earnest and open discussion unencumbered by rhetoric and politically correct double-speak.

    I beseech those of you entertaining the idea of participating in this string...please do so with an open-mind. If your intent is to merely whine, bicker, snivel or bitch about grammar, spelling or typing prowess, please leave and start your own string--->or better yet, go to the TPR site [www.review.com]. They will welcome you with open arms.

    However, if you are intrigued by a mature discussion over issues related to DO vs MD and wish to state your thoughts and receive CONSTRUCTIVE, mind-opening discourse on them...please continue.




    ------------------
    'Old Man Dave'
    Senior, Neurosciences
    Univ of Texas at Dallas
    Class of 1999
     
  2. Ponyboy

    Ponyboy Senior Member
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    in my humble opinion, there is no difference between the actual practice of the two groups(MD or DO). more than half of DO graduates enter MD residencies and only about 10% of DO's use OMM.

    the only real difference is political, legal and prestige. the legal differences are the biggest deterrent to becoming a DO. DO's are not as well received as MD's in foreign countries and must petition the country's government to obtain practice rights. in some countries, DO's are confined to OMM and are not given full medical practice rights. The hoops that DO's have to jump through in the US to practice are also annoying. several states require DO's to do an AOA internship for licensure. this may change in the future but til then, that's the way they are. LA also requires DO's to take both the USMLE and COMLEX. these are simply more hoops to jump through but MD's do not have to worry about this. as someone who is interested in international health and ID/epidemiology, these are serious considerations.
     
  3. OldManDave

    OldManDave Fossil Bouncer Emeritus
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    First topic: I'll grant DOGBOY, JONM and the others, they are quite correct in claiming that a DO curriculum will not likely re-program a med student to become a caring, empathetic and compassionate person; and hence physician. However, there are aspects of BOTH types of programs that are intended to encourage this sort of involvement.

    Frequently, here lately, I have seen DOGBOY and JONM claim that they would prefer a Yale grad [prefer a smart Doc over a compassionate/empathetic Doc]. To you all, I pose this question...Why is it you contest that the patient must chose a Doc with EITHER brains OR compassion?

    Not that I am Einstein; but I am quite confident in my intellectual talents. I wouldn't be a competitive applicant were I not fairly sharp. Also, through many years of clinical practice, I have developed a very keen sense of compassion and empathy for the plights of those I have worked on and will work on in the future.

    From my own perspective, these qualities are quite compatible in a single person; nor am I the sole possessor of both...I have worked with many physicians who had both in no short supply. Unfortunately, I have worked with many more who had one or the other, usually w/o the 'personal' components. Fortunately, I have only worked with 1 or 2 that possessed neither....

    I contest that the reason DO schools' entry numbers are SLIGHTLY below that of MD schools' is due to the fact they have a more balanced requirement of all the above versus a blatant emphasis on numbers expressed by MD schools. Furthermore, I believe the reason MD schools emphasize numbers is far less grand than some 'superior-intellect' thing. I contest that it is grounded in: 1) tradition, 2) sheer necessity of crunching the app pile to a managable size and 3) an algorithm purely based on numbers is more easily programmed into a computer [for screening purposes].

    In essence, I don't buy that there is some sinister plot here...it is more a manifestation of logistics.

    Feedback is welcome!

    [​IMG] [​IMG]


    ------------------
    'Old Man Dave'
    Senior, Neurosciences
    Univ of Texas at Dallas
    Class of 1999
     
  4. Ponyboy

    Ponyboy Senior Member
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    Dave,i think that DOGBOY and JONM are saying that they would prefer a competent doctor over a compassionate one because DO's seem to imply that since they aren't the best researchers and academics, they are much kinder and compassionate. everyone on this thread constantly tells us that DO's are more holistic and empathetic while MD's are not. DOGBOY and JONM are simply saying that they would rather be treated by a bastard and live than to be cared for by a nice guy and die. i kinda agree with them.

    also, you're assuming that the same people who apply to MD schools also apply to DO schools. i'd be wary of such a statement. people who have high GPA's and MCAT's tend to be more prestige and high-profile job orientated (this was in a study of med school matriculants). for this reason, they apply primarily to MD schools and not DO schools. people who see DO school as a last ditch option into medicine or as their only chance to get into medicine are likely to have lower numbers. i'm not saying that this is the case all the time, but it does occur to some people. i'm sure that if a DO school had to choose between two people who were exactly the same in all respects EXCEPT that one of them had a 3.8gpa and a 36 mcat while the other had a 3.4 and a 29 mcat, they would take the one with the higher numbers.

    i agree with you on the fact that MD schools use numbers alot. if you had 6000+ applications to interview, why waste your time on interviewing "lower numbered" applicants when there are so many "high-numbers" applicants who can demonstrate compassion and empathy as well as the "lower numbered" students?

    this is also done because of legal issues. compassion and empathy are subjective terms. if schools screened applicants based primarily on this, they could open themselves up to lawsuits.
     
  5. OsteoDOC

    OsteoDOC Member
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    I will always wonder if this D.O. versus M.D. will ever end. Interstingly, the topic is continually being brought up by pre-med students or maybe first or second year medical students. I ask everyone, how often do you see this topic brought by PRACTICING D.O.???? The answer is, RARELY!. Why? Because in the vast majority of places, it is a NON-ISSUE! I wish everyone would get that through their heads.

    Now, as to which is better, it all depends. Some of the best and worst physicians I know are M.D.'s. Some of the best and worst physicians I know are D.O.'s. Bottome line, there will be GOOD and BAD physicians regardless of the initials behind their name.

    I chose to apply only to osteopathic medical schools because I wanted to learn manual manipulations. It was that simple. Does OMM define a D.O.? NO!!!!!!! Does practicing "holistic" medicine define a D.O.? NO!!!!! If you look at the defination of a D.O. by the AOA or even review the principles set forth by A.T. Still, neither OMM or "Holistic" is found. What they both say, in a nut shell, is that the body systems are interdependent and that the body has an innate way of healing itself. That stucture is basically related to function and that due to the fact that 60% of the body is musculoskeletal, proper alignment is needed for optimum health.

    Now, if you want to be a M.D. and attend Yale, then go for it. If you want to be a D.O., then go for it. If you really concerned about having D.O. at the end of your name, then DO NOT apply to an osteopathic medical school! As for pre-meds worrying about residency, get a grip. First, get IN, then get through all the basic sciences, THEN worry about residency programs while you are completing your clerkships. By the way, there is no such thing as an "allopathic" residency. There are osteopathic residencies accredidated by the AOA that are only for osteopathic medical grads but there are residencies accredidated by the ACGME that are for allopathic AND osteopathic medical grads. Therefore, they are not "allopathic" residencies.

    I hate to inform everyone, but going to the "best" (is their really one???) medical school or doing the "best" residency does NOT guarentee you will be the "best" physician.

    Brandon A, MS4
    Western University/COMP

    P.S. If there are any spelling or grammical errors, DEAL WITH IT.
     
  6. mevannorden

    mevannorden Member
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    In discussing the scores of the average DO or MD matriculant, one point is missing. Most people with high scores, and thus a good chance of getting into MD schools, don't know about or understand osteopathic medicine. I go to UOMHS in Des Moines, IA, and most of the town doesn't know we exist, after being here for over 100 years. If that is the case here, I know it is the case elsewhere. My first impression of the osteopathic profession as a pre-med was of an inferior alternative to being an MD. I then took the initiative to look into it fully, and found out that wasn't the case. Had I not taken that initiative, I wouldn't have known what osteopathy was, and I would be at an MD school right now (not that DO schools are better, just better for me). So, to make a long story longer, lack of awareness is a large factor in why osteopathic students have lower scores, on average, than allopathic students.

    I must say, in closing, that I agree with OsteoDOc. In the "real world", it doesn't make a lick of difference whether you're an MD or a DO. Just be a good doctor.
     
  7. Henry

    Henry Senior Member
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    I believe we need to clarify one point here; an compassionate physicican doesn't mean he/she is not competent in skills or medical knowledge.

    One can "LEARN" all about medicine and acquire the skills.

    On the other hand, compassion is a personality or characteristic of an individual. Given the appropiate opportunity and training, one can learn how to applying compassion to enhance the medical treatment. However, the compassionate element have to be planted within ones heart first. In other word, it must exists before one can fully utilize it.

    I believe, the osteopoathic training help the individual, who possess the element of compassion, to develop the people skills.
    However, if a medical student don't believe in "Caring", nothing can really change that person's point of view. Therefore, the osteopathic training towards such an individual will have no influence at all.

    Personally, I believe the osteopathic training will help me to improve my people's skills while I am learning to be a competent physician.

     
  8. OldManDave

    OldManDave Fossil Bouncer Emeritus
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    OsteoDoc, I couldn't have said it better!! In a round about fashion, you succintly made the points I have tried to stress in other strings and hoped to bring out in this one. I have seen so many posters endlessly harangued for their beliefs and/or typographical/grammatical errors. My intent is truly not to stir-up the problem; but to attempt to ease it by open-minded discussion...please bear that in mind why you reply here.

    PonyBoy, the entire point of what I said is that intellect and compassion/empathy are not mutually exclusive!! Any med student/Doc is fully capable of either or both...and it has ZERO to do with the program type! However, at no point did I claim that the DO route wouldn't require additional effort...that is dependent upon what area of medicine you choose to practice. Of course, that some choice, no matter the alphabet soup behind your sig, will determine what hoops you must jump through.

    While it may be true that persons with high numbers may apply at a higher rate to MD programs vs DO...I tend to feel their decisions are founded more in worry over 'things they hear' about DO inferiority and discrimination, neither of which are true in any sense!

    In addition, have you checked out the overall acceptance rates for DO vs MD? MD schools have an overall 28% acceptance rate and DO schools have just shy of 23%...this says DO schools are more selective vs their applicant pool.

    ------------------
    'Old Man Dave'
    Senior, Neurosciences
    Univ of Texas at Dallas
    Class of 1999


    [This message has been edited by OldManDave (edited April 10, 1999).]
     
  9. Lack of awareness contributing to lower GPA and MCAT scores? I think you are trying to say that if more 'top' students knew about osteopathic medicine they would apply and hence the average GPA and MCAT scores for DO students would increase. Possible, yes. Probable, no. Most people are detracted from osteoapthic medicine because it isn't as recognized and they feel their opportunities in the future may be limited. This isn't to say this is true, however this is the perception. So I feel most top students would still choose MD school.

    Also to say that there are good and bad DO's and MD's is absolutely correct. The problem lies in the likeliehood that if someone has a bad experience with an MD it is just a bad doctor they went to see and they would like to see a different physician, but if they had a bad experience with a DO it reflects on the entire profession since their are so few DO's compared with MD's.

    I also don' think their is anything wrong with using DO school as a backup into the medical profession. If that individual is going to become an excellent physician or surgeon the beneficiary is the osteopathic profession. I strongly feel the majority of DO students fall into this category, maybe not in this forum but most of them are using DO school as a backup.
     
  10. OsteoDOC

    OsteoDOC Member
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    A couple of comments regarding DOGBOY'S statement.....

    I do agree that if there is a "bad" D.O. it looks "worse" than a "bad" M.D. and it may very well be due to there being so few D.O.'s when compared to M.D.'s. Alternatively, if there is a "good" D.O. it looks "better" than a "good" M.D. But in the overall scheme of things, I could really care less and I never worry about it. See, there are still many patients who are being treated by their "physician" (not "doctor" because PhD's, O.D.'s, D.C.'s, and D.P.M.'s are all "doctors") and could really care less what initials the physician has under his/her name. All the patient wants is to be treated appropriately by a caring individual. If that is a D.O. or a M.D., then so be it. That is the bottom line. Treat your patient to the best of your ability with as much caring as you can give. THAT, my friends, is what will make you a "GREAT" physician. The initials at the end of your name, the medical school you went to, where you did residency....it doesn't mean s**t when compared to that. So, let the next pre-med stress and worry about "D.O. versus M.D." or "which is the best allopathic medical school" or "which osteopathic medical school is the best" or "what kind of residency program is best...ACGME or AOA (if you are a D.O. grad)."

    As for students using osteopathic medical schools as back-up for allopathic schools, well unfortunately there is some truth to that. There are many in my class who would have preferred to go to an allopathic medical school. The joke is on them though as they go through the rest of their life with "D.O," after their name (yes, there is sarcasim in there). Things are a changing though. More people are applying to osteopathic medical schools. Many with much higher number's (though I personally will take the nice, down to earth person with a 3.0 than the Einstein-thinking, library-living, rat-playing geek with a 3.8 any day of the week. Many of the "M.D. wanna-be's" will be surprised that they just can't waltz into an osteopathic medical school anymore. My advice, if you have ANY problem with being a D.O., DO NOT APPLY!

    Comments are always welcome.

    Brandon A., MS4
    Western Univeristy/COMP

    P.S. you know my feelings about any spelling or grammar errors.
    P.S.S. Old Man Dave, please call me Brandon..we're all friends here.
     
  11. Gregory Gulick

    Gregory Gulick Senior Member
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    I think everyone here has made some good points. It all seems to gravitate towards one principle: osteopathic medicine has a big tent. By that I mean, there are many people who choose this profession for different reasons. Some of the reasons might include:

    1. Failure to gain acceptance to an allopathic medical school -- for whatever reason this might be whether it be lower numbers, advanced age, or just plain bad luck.

    2. A desire to stay near family (or inability to relocate).

    3. A desire to learn manipulation.

    4. A desire to study in a primary-care oriented program as opposed to a research-oriented program.

    5. Simply choosing X college of osteopathic medicine over Y college of medicine due to personal preferences.

    6. Philosophical reasons. (i.e., desire to study medicine is a school grounded in a holism)

    7. A family tradition of becomming osteopathic physicians.

    And I'm sure there are many more reasons why someone might choose to become a D.O. But because of this heterogeneity and because we are a minority, premeds will be very quick to generalize about us in an effort to easily understand us -- and, as we all know from explaining osteopathic medicine to our friends, we aren't easily understood. And these generalizations may be positive ("all D.O.s are highly empathetic") or negative ("all D.O.s are M.D.-school rejects"). Either way, these generalizations do a disservice to each physician who deserves to be assessed individually. And by and large, I think most patients do this. They choose their physicians based on their own personal assessments of them and through their friends' recommendations, not by the physician's diploma.

    So, choose the medical school that suits your needs and, if you don't have the luxury of choice, attend the school that accepts you and be thankful you've been given the rare opportunity to study medicine.

    [​IMG]

    [This message has been edited by Gregory Gulick (edited April 10, 1999).]
     
  12. Ponyboy

    Ponyboy Senior Member
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    Dave, i totally agree with you on your statement that doctors can be both caring and competent but in previous threads this usually isn't stated. people tend to pick one or the other. this is seen in brandon's last post, where he'd rather have the nice, down to earth person with a "3.0 than the Einstein-thinking, library-living, rat-playing geek with a 3.8." well, i happen to be a 4.0 and i do not live in the library, play with rats, think like einstein and i am not a geek (that's a relative term though but i'm willing to bet that i'm cooler than brandon [​IMG] ).

    as for using DO school as a backup, it may be the case. i want to be a PHYSICIAN,not a DO or an MD, A PHYSICIAN. my life would be easier if i were an MD (working internationally, etc.) but i'd have no problem being a DO. i think that the people who really know about DO's don't see much of a difference between the two degrees, they pick the one that they feels benefits them the most in the long run (if they're after prestige, research, etc).
     
  13. OsteoDOC

    OsteoDOC Member
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    Ponyboy,

    You need to try and relax..don't take things so personal. That is surely a problem with pre-meds, they take things so literally.

    With a little humor..and some stereotyping..I was trying to make a point that not all "good" physicians were top in their undergrad or medical classes.

    You will see once you get into medical school, that many patients are tired of the medical mumbo-jumbo. They don't want some Nobel-prize winner discussing their medical problems in lingo they can't understand. Feel free to disagree but having spent 13 years in pre-hospital care and then the last two years in clerkships, I feel I can speak with some validity.

    One last thing. Many pre-meds keep worrying about working in other countries. Interestingly, if you work for something like WHO, it is rarely a problem. Secondly, why go work overseas when there are so many people here in the good ol' US of A who don't have good health care. They way I see it, many countries send their own citizens to medical school for free or very low costs (i.e. India) only to have them leave and come do a residency here in the US. I think that THEY should be the ones returning to their own countries and provide that service. Unfortunately, once they get a taste of the better life here in the US, they don't return.

    Brandon A, MS4
    Western University/COMP

    P.S. Ponyboy, you may be cool but never as cool as me..haha
     
  14. Ponyboy

    Ponyboy Senior Member
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    brandon, you've just proved my point again. you've implied again that doctors cannot be both brilliant and compassionate at the same time. like i said in my previous post, it's entirely possible for people to be both caring and competent. i didn't take any offense to your stereotyping but merely used it to show how people are stuck into the mindset that being competent and compassionate are mutually exclusive.

    BTW brandon, i am the s**t. if you don't understand this statement, then we all know who's cooler.
     
  15. MOXIEJEN DO 2003

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    Holy Guacamole! What are we trying to accomplish here?!? First, are we debating among ourselves (DO students) or are we engaging in friendly debate with MD students?
    If we are debating with MD students, this thread may go on for eternity.

    Enough with this whole holistic/empathetic/3.0 vs. the uncaring 4.0 Yale grad blah blah blah. Yes, we can all agree that intelligence and empathy need not be mutually exclusive. We can also agree that SOME people seek out Osteopathic physicians to treat them because they can expect to be treated holistically and in many cases offered manipulative therapies if appropriate. We must also note that there are SOME people who DO NOT WANT to be treated in a holistic manner. Some people just want to go to the physicians office, get their antibiotic/arthritis analgesic cream/or whatever and be done with it. For them, a MD for a primary care practioner may be more appropriate. THIS IS NOT TO SAY that the MD will not be empathetic towards the patient who is suffering from a bacterial infection/arthritis attack/or whatever, but rather that the surrounding issues may not be addressed, and this may be to the patient's liking.

    The disparity and percieved "stigma" of DO's as compared to MD's is decreasing with time. DO'S hold professorships, are Chief of Medical Staff, and yes, they even participate in RESEARCH!

    Part of the decrease in perceived "quality" disparity between the two philosophies is due to the education efforts of students like myself who take every opportunity possible to educate people about my intended profession. It seems that each time I tell an acquaintance that I have been accepted to Osteopathic Medical School, I am given a nice antecdote about a positive experience they or a family member had with a DO. This kind of positive feedback makes me even more proud of the profession I am about to prepare for. I also have a line of friends, family, and co-workers who can't wait until I can perform OMM! The presence of three DO schools on the US News and World Report "Top Medical Schools" report says something too- that some MD schools are ranked lower than some DO schools. That doesn't sound like less prestige to me!


    I can also say that between MD's and DO's, neither are BETTER, just DIFFERENT.

    I do feel sad that I will have classmates who are looking at DO acceptance as 'second rate.' I believe that anyone who REALLY wants to get into MD school CAN, if they do what is necessary to get in, and SHOULD do whatever necessary to get in to a MD school (retaking the MCAT, getting a MS degree, etc.) so that more seats will be left open for students who are entering the Osteopathic medical schools because the practice philosophy matches their personal practice philosophy. Enough about the grade debate too, I am sure that there are many MD students who had lower undergraduate GPA's than some of their DO med student peers. The GPA ranges are't THAT different.


    Osteopathic medicine is my choice. If I wanted to be an allopath, I would have been. But I don't. So, why don't we all just agree that people enter the type of school they enter for any number of reasons (as stated above), and that the perceptions of the differences ARE IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER!

    This MD vs DO thing is so INCREDIBLY subjective.

    OsteoDOC- one question, if OMM and holistic practice do not define a DO then what does?

    Thanks for your time
    Jen

    [This message has been edited by MOXIEJEN DO 2003 (edited April 11, 1999).]

    [This message has been edited by MOXIEJEN DO 2003 (edited April 11, 1999).]
     
  16. OldManDave

    OldManDave Fossil Bouncer Emeritus
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    Whoa! Whoa! Everyone hold on a second and chill!!! I may be wrong; but things appear to be getting just a smidgen emotional charged. I asked in the original post that everyone keep their emotions in check and not attack individuals...feel free to CONSTRUCTIVELY critique postings, but leave the people out, please.

    That said, many valuable things have been said above. One of my goals was to have you guys point out the variety of reasons why INDIVIDUAL students and patients select DO vs MD. As can easily surmised, there is no right answer...some from ignorance, some as a back-up plan and many by choice.

    Once again, I want to stress, many studies have shown that a med students Ugrad GPAs have very very poor predictive power related to their success/failure as a med student. Also, just because you [email protected]$$ as a med student, doesn't guarantee you'll be worth your salt as a Doc. I used to work with a Peds-ICU attending who was the validictorian of his med school class. He had the personality of a dried-up turd and was a terrifying clinician!! I personally watched him do a great deal of damage to his patients. He is the only clinician I ever had to refuse to implement his orders.

    I have worked with a ton of Docs in my 9+ yrs as a resp therapist. Of the ones I have gotten to know well enough to ask them about how they got into school, most of them fell into the 'average' range, GPA 3.5~3.75 MCATs circa 30. The overwhelming majority of them, DO and MD alike, are great [compassionate, empathetic and damned smart] at what they do.

    As for a preference of the bastard over the kindly...I doubt you've been there and had to see the torment of having to tell a parent there's nothing more that can be done, your child is dying. This is an extreme example; but one that occurs many times a day. Bed-side manner is crucial to being an effective physician! One day in your very own practice, you will charged with telling many people some very pleasant and some very very unpleasant things...at that point, your patients couldn't give a damned if you were the janitor...it will be all in how you handle it.

    They will not care about your school, GPAs, USMLE/COMLEX scores, residencies...But, they will be deeply affected by the empathy and compassion you show them. Since you are a Doc, they assume you have what it takes upstairs...and if you have gotten to that point in your career, you most likely do have it going on upstairs. The difference is being able to establish an open, honest friendship with them...they need to feel connected to you. I know this may seem corny or excessive; but it's what sets the really good Docs apart from the truly great ones.

    Why do you think our profession leads most professions in substance abuse, suicide and divorce? It's not the scholastics...hell, we've all been dealing with that stress since kindegarten. NO, it's the emotional component. You're constantly helping people cope in their finest and their darkest times. Being a medical professional is like riding an emotional roller-coaster...at times, it's an incredible high!! At times, you will feel deep sadness and pain. That's why the emotional part is sooo important!

    Your thoughts please....

    ------------------
    'Old Man Dave'
    Senior, Neurosciences
    Univ of Texas at Dallas
    Class of 1999
     
  17. OsteoDOC

    OsteoDOC Member
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    Ponyboy,

    I never did say you couldn't be brilliant and compassionate. But, you seem to be equating brilliance and competence with very high GPA's and MCAT scores. Most of those scores are from standardized tests that are multiple choice. So does that mean that someone who does not do well on standardised exams is NOT brilliant or competent? That is my point. I will NEVER feel that "numbers" in any way, shape or form dictate how "competent or brilliant" a physician will be. My undergrad GPA and MCAT scores were not very impressive but I seem to have gotten through all the medical school bookwork and clerships with very little problem. As for how I will do later in life, only time will tell. I do know this, I have never had a patient ask what my GPA was.

    MoxieJen,

    Good question. The answer will vary depending on who you ask. If you look at the main 4 principles set out by A. T. Still, they include things like (these are not exact quotes..I don't have the book in front of me), "The body systems are all interdependent" and "the body has an innate way of healing itself" and "structure is related to function and proper alignment of the musculoskeletal system is needed to obtain optimum health". If you believe all of these, then it set you apart from allopathically trained physicians. The AOA Directory has the "Official" definition of a D.O. but at the moment, I don't have it in front of me. I think (this is ONLY my opinion) the definition of ALL physicians is how they practice. How's that for an answer (smile).

    Comments are welcome.

    Brandon A, MS4
    Western University/COMP
     
  18. 2003

    2003 Senior Member
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    I've got some questions that maybe someone can answer.

    (1) If a PhD and a DPhil are both offered in the same subject (chemistry for example) and would lead to the exact same type of career in research and teaching would there be an argument over which degree was better? I
    don't think so.

    (2) Canadian and American institutions (major universities) are considered to be on par with each other. So, if you happen to be one who considers that higher GPA and MCAT as pre-meds make better physicians do you agree
    that Canadian-trained MD's are better than US-trained MD's? I don't. FYI, to get into medical school in Canada (an average across all schools) you need approx. GPA=3.8 and an MCAT of 31.

    (3) More about GPA's. There is a movement in the social sciences now to talk about real differences (ie., p<.05) only if the effect size or strength of effect is meaningful (they argue about how much is meaningful and the greek letters for this can be lower case sigma, delta, or omega-squared depending on the presumptions made re: variance etc.). To
    illustrate what I mean I will use the example of decreasing IQ with increasing (later) birth order. There is a real difference (p<.01) however the actual difference is approximately one IQ point. Researchers now
    generally agree that this is meaningless (a real but meaningless difference). Next, do the following with accepted MD students and accepted DO students GPA's (by this I mean the school they end up attending b/c many
    are accepted at both). Take the bell-curve for each and overlap them and have a look at there effect size delta (which would be used here). I wish I could show it to you graphically b/c I did it. Of course, this presumes a normal distribution around the mean (mean=median) for both MD and DO matriculants. The curves overlap very much... but this means that only 68%
    of MD matriculants are actually higher than DO matriculants (if my assumptions and numbers are correct). Almost 1/3 of DO's do better than your avg. accepted MD student. By the way, delta in this case is approx.
    0.5 and considered small (a real but small difference). Is the difference meaningful? In my opinion, it is not. FYI, dichotomous distrubutions have a delta=4.0.

    (4) Everybody says they want a smarter physician but what they say is: "I'd rather have a Yale Grad working on me than a LECOM grad." Is pre-med GPA a valid and reliable indicator of intelligence. I know many people who did terrible in school at first and then, when they had a priority change --
    did very well. In fact, I know one student on this site that is a Mensa member and... oh my goodness, this person's going to be a DO (I'm not mentioning who b/c of the attacks this person might get or people who wouldn't believe... by the way, if you don't believe this, I don't care... just read everything else I am saying). If you are going to say you'd prefer a Yale grad say it's because you want a physician who was an excellent student.

    (5) I've heard things like "GPA & MCAT numbers must be good predictors of who will be good physicians otherwise schools wouldn't use them." This is cirular reasoning my friends -- completely erroneous. For example, God exists. How do I know? Because he helped write the Bible. Well how do I
    know the Bible is true... b/c God exists. The is illogical and erroneous reasoning (the conclusions may or may not be true [ie. the bible may be true and God may exit] however, the statements do nothing to prove or show
    this. Anyway, why do schools use GPA and MCAT scores to determine who will be physicians? Because they are good predictors of who will make good physicians. Well how do we know they are good predictors of who will make good physicians? Because schools use them. See the pattern. FYI, the
    only thing that has been shown is that GPA and MCAT scores correlate with performance in the first two years of medical school.

    (6) Did you know that if you took a different stat... such as hours worked in a health field and compared DO and MD matrics the DO's would win out. I'm not saying this means anything but this may be a good predictor of who will be a good physician too (no one knows).

    I have more but this is an extremely long msg... anybody have some intelligent and logical questions/comments?
     
  19. OsteoDOC

    OsteoDOC Member
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    2003,

    I like your post. I just wish had done better in my statistical class when an undergrad in 1987 because I don't remember a darn thing..<laughing>.

    I think you are coming to the same conclusion as I am, that "numbers" don't determine how "good" a physician will be. Now, I made a comment relating that the typical physician was an "Einstein-thinking, library-living, rat-playing geek with a 3.8 GPA and a MCAt over 30. This is, of course, a generalization regarding "many of not most" allopathic medical schools. Their argument in using those "criteria" is to make sure that the student is "brilliant" enough to get through the first two years of medical school. The problem is, just about ANYONE can get through medical school if they work hard enough at it. When I applied to medical school, I had a GPA of 3.1 and a MCAT of 24. Not "impressive" numbers. But, I got in, and passed everything, did well on my board exam, have gotten "A's" on all of my clerkships and have obtain a residency at UCSF/University Medical Center-Fresno. So what does all that mean. NOTHING! Except, that in 6 weeks, I will have graduated medical school and will start a residency.

    I hate to inform all the pre-meds out there but GPA, MCAT'S, medical school (osteopathic or allopathic), and residency program do NOT determine how "brilliant" or "competent" or "compassionate" a physician you are going to be . YOU are the only one who determines that.

    I wish there was someway that medical schools could use other "criteria" for their admissions. As we all know, allopathic medical schools look at numbers. Osteopathic medical schools also look at numbers but are "generally" more forgiving if there are reasons for a lower GPA/MCAT (hence the lower GPA's seen in osteopathic medical schools). Osteopathic medical schools look at "life experiences" or "medical experiences" more than allopathic medical schools but times are changing. It seems that osteopathic medical schools are looking a little more carefully at numbers and allopathic medical schools are looking at "other" criteria more closely. Which is the better approach, well that is up to one's own opinion. I think you can tell which I prefer.

    Brandon A, MS4
    Western University/COMP
     
  20. There seems to be a little chip on the shoulders of many DO students because their MCAT and GPA's are a bit lower on average than MD students. As a result I always here that grades and standardized test scores are not a predictor of the quality of physician one becomes. I absolutely agree, however the simple fact is that there is NO data that indicates that an individual who has high MCAT's and GPA will become a LESS competent physician. Everyone here seems to agree that the best physician will be one who possesses both a strong academic foundation and strong interpersonal skill. Therefore, with so many applicants to medical school it is only fair and correct to primarily admit those students with the highest numbers. This is something DO schools are also doing and I think they should do more because like it or not it does lend credibility to the profession.

    I know people will say that when you get down to the patient he/she doesn't care where you went to school and that may or may not be true, however if people perceive osteopathic medical students to be academically inferior to allopathic students there is bound to be some discrimination, especially be other physicians.
     
  21. MOXIEJEN DO 2003

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    How many people think DO students are 'academically inferior' to MD students?

    And, creditibility will be 'leant' to our profession when the schools continue to develop practicing physicians who will make caring, competent medical professionals, not when the DO schools begin accepting people 'by the numbers' as MD schools do.

    To assume that the GPA's are lower is incorrect. It has been stated on this thread twice before that some DO students have higher GPA's than MD students. I don't see the "chip" as present as some others may.
     
  22. OsteoDOC

    OsteoDOC Member
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    Old Man Dave,

    I was hoping that this thread could, as you wished, go on without personal attacks or the demeaning of people. Unfortuntely, I don't think it can.

    Although I could be wrong, there are people (person) stating that maybe some DO students (i.e. myself) have a "chip"on their shoulder. I don't see how I have come across with one, but someone obviously has perceived it as such. So be it. They have a right to their opinions.

    It has been said, that there is NO data suggesting that a student with high GPA's and MCAT scores will be a LESS competent physician. I agree 100%. I have never stated otherwise. May I add that there is NO data suggesting that a student with lower GPA and MCAT scores will be a LESS competent physician either.

    It has also been said that it is fair and correct to admit only the students with the highest numbers. Something about credibility (I guess I have decreased the credibility at Western University/COMP...sorry about that WU). I will always believe, as I have stated, that everyone has a right to their opinion. But, I do disagree with this opinion. I do however understand how this was ingrained into many pre-meds. We have all gone to college where every advisor and their brother has stated "you have to get A's if you want to go to medical school." I wish this wasn't so, but it is. I personally applaud osteopathic medical school for being more willing to look beyond the numbers. Now, if that leads to less credibility by my other "colleagues", then so be it. I personally didn't go to medical school to impress anyone. I could care less if a "colleague" felt my school wasn't as credible as his because they took me with my lower numbers. What I do care about is being credible with my patients and giving them my best. And when I treat them appropriately with compassion, I will gain their credibility. Just my opinion.

    Brandon A, MS4
    Western University, COMP
     
  23. mevannorden

    mevannorden Member
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    It is true that intelligence and compassion are not mutually exclusive qualities. It is also true that a person's intelligence can not always be judged by their grades or test scores. Many "intelligent" people fail to apply themselves fully, and thus score lower than others who may have less "intelligence" but work harder. So, having a 4.0 gpa and 13's on the MCAT doesn't necessarily make one smarter than somebody with a 3.5gpa and 9's on the mcat. I would say that it is often true, although certainly not always, that those with the highest grades often have poorer social skills. These social skills are vital to being able to relate to patients. Now please do not misunderstand me. Many, many people make excellent grades, get excellent mcat scores, and have excellent social skills. I do not deny this. I am only saying that many top-achievers have lousy social skills. My point is this: by looking primarily at grades and test scores, many schools miss candidates who would make excellent physicians, while admitting quite a few who will make lousy physicians (in spite of their academic prowess). A physician's value is not measured soley by his/her ability to diagnose, although this is vital. A good physician must also be able to relate to people on their level, to explain things in terms they can understand, to emphathize with those that are hurting, etc. etc. etc. It is true, unfortunately, that many of the best academically performing pre-meds I knew simply did not possess these qualities. They were prideful, arrogant, and "in it for the money." They'll probably make it through medical school, but will they be quality physicians? I have my doubts.
     
  24. Duke

    Duke Member
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    Is it ever going to stop?!?
    I don't see why we have to argue and attack each other.I must admit at first it was nice to see all the discussion, but now it's getting really old. I frequent this website because I like talking/ interacting with others and obtaining information.However,this discussion about DO's vs. MD is really going nowhere. I think it's really lame to belittle each other over the Internet because I know most of you who do would think twice before doing so in person. As for people who take it personal, RELAX.. It's most likely the person making the attack doesn't know you.. So why does it matter? It maybe true that the one attacking you takes pleasure while you defend yourself to a forum who doesn't even know you.
    Can't we talk about something else? [​IMG]
    By the way, Old Man Dave, did you get into KCOM? I hope you do.. Email me when you get the chance.
     
  25. cliff

    cliff Senior Member
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    I will keep my response simple and organized.

    Grades- One wise man once said to me a GPA will get you a job, not let you keep it. The reality is that your undergrad GPA and MCAT does determine who gets interviewed. This is the rate limiting step on the doctor pathway. My grades suck but I was the 1st person in my college's history to complete my major and honors minor together. This hurt my chances of being interviewed. Touro rejected me because I did not meet their "minimum GPA" requirements. DO AND MD SCHOOLS are the same in this aspect.

    MD or DO- I was not willing to leave California to become an MD but I will happily leave here to become a DO. The difference is what the individual makes of it, and how he markets himself/herself as a doc. With a DO you can be a manipulator and never write a perscription or you can be a surgeon. Your options with a DO are more than with an MD.

    Differences (3)(My opinion)
    1. Older candidates become DO. This is why I think more become primary care docs. If you start at 28 + 4 (school) + 3 (intern and res) =35 years old and doing what you want to.

    2.Less emphasis on research and more on anatomy. Many med schools require a rotation through a lab and emphasize lab skills more than DOs. I would hope that more DO will become involved but there has to be more funding and places of publication.

    3. Different type of personality. I dislike most of my peers that are going to prestigous med schools. I have been unable to find a DO like this. This is totally subjective and hard to articulate, but I suspect most people feel this in some way.

    Being a physician-
    It is easy to get into PhD programs and become a doctor. It is purposely hard to become a physician. I am actively chosing to become the 1st DO in a family of MDs. I want to keep this tradition alive in my family but in a way that is more in sync with my personal philosophy on health.

    Time and experience will provide each of us with the answers that each of us need to hear to stay up the many long nights ahead studying, working, stressing, partying and practicing. Personally, I think I will either become a surgeon or a manipulator.

    I also like this line-

    Many people talk abour osteopathic medicine with very little understanding but with a lot of respect. As I exchange this respect with my limited understanding I know that this is the right path for me. I hope it is for you. If you ain't as sure, walk away now.


    ------------------
     
  26. I was in NO WAY AT ALL referring to you Brandon! NOT AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can't help it if you feel like I was. I don't think at all that there were any attacks on an individual. This has been an interesting discussion and hopefully it an others can continue.
     
  27. OK I am just making a point here. When I say "chip" I don't mean you are walking around bitter and cynical about not attending an MD school so take it as you may. I just don't see how people can say that they see many of their peers attending MD school and they have their doubts about how competent a physician they will become. To me that comes across in a manner that future DO's dislike when MD students are ignorant of the osteopathic profession. Many MD students as has been said are 22-23 years old when they enter school and therefore lack the maturity and life experience that many older DO students have. As they live life through medical school I am quite sure most of them will mature, become more empathetic, compassionate people, especially after going through medical school. I think will all agree that the quality of medical care in the US is the best in the world and it wouldn't be that way if there weren't intellctual and compassionate physicians, most of whom are MD's. I am defending MD's not because I will be one, I will most likely be attending DO school, but because people here want attacks to stop and respect each degree which is all I am trying to do.

    My other point was made by DUKE who said his grades in college sucked and he will be going to DO school. Again this is only my opinion but I feel many of these individuals would be attending MD school if their grades were better and then they say things like DO schools are better at admitting the right students because they look beyond the numbers. If you truly have always wanted to be a DO great. If you are going to be a DO because your grades were not strong enough for MD school great! If you are going to be a strong physician then you will be a benefit to the osteopathic profession.
     
  28. OldManDave

    OldManDave Fossil Bouncer Emeritus
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    DOGBOY,

    I'm not necessarily singling you out; but you have hung on to the premise of DO=low GPA & MCAT vs our MD bretheren in many spots.

    Once again, I state from personal experience [read that as I am not surmising from some article or just 'inferring' cause it appears to make sense], high GPAs and MCAT do NOT, repeat DO NOT, ensure success in anything...let alone as a physician. My first years as a Ugrad I sucked...GPA < 2.0, academic probation--->dropped out to avoid expulsion for grades. By that point, parental had ceased necessitated I work FT and go to school.

    Once the funding began to come from ole' Dave's pocket...the attitude changed, drastically. I will graduate magna cum laude in May with a BS in neuroscience...far from a easy major. My MCATs are solid, not stellar.

    My current stats, were I to be one of those baby-faced 23 year olds would have gotten me multiple interviews and acceptances...but mix in the ****ty old stuff and I become Quasi-modo [complete with 3rd arm thrusting from my forehead] to many of the allopathic programs. Do my past transgressions restrict my to inevitable failure as a physician? HELL NO!! But, my numbers averaged altogether are far less than impressive...but I can guarantee you, I will be an excellent physician.

    Numbers don't mean a hill of beans when your talking to a patient or their family. I think the key point you and many others are missing is that the modern patients expectations have changed to DEMAND that a Doc not only be technically excellent; but that they have sound bedside manners as well.
    This is quite evident in that all programs, MD and DO, are adopting curricula that are progressively more and more patient centered. At the root of it all...we're not caring for critters in a petri dish. Our patients are people...someone's child, parent, grand-parent...above all else, they are people with personal needs. They want Docs who have the capacity to connect on a personal level, not just crunch thier numbers and regurgitate a Dx and prognosis.

    Lastly, please please please avoid becoming personal...this is not the attack string!






    ------------------
    'Old Man Dave'
    Senior, Neurosciences
    Univ of Texas at Dallas
    Class of 1999
     
  29. Duke

    Duke Member
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    Even if a MD student is smarter than me, I know my friend in MD school might be, what difference does that make? I know that my friend respects me and what I am doing. To me that's what matters.There will always be someone out there smarter than you. But that doesn't say anything about how they'll do in med school. Some of us will burnout and just try and stay above water in med school. Where does undergrad GPA and MCAT scores play into that mix? At the next level, it's a whole new ball game.For example, people who used to work full time and go to school full time will make sacrifices for their future and will devote more time to their studies.As an undergrad, they may not have fared as well but it's obvious they'll do a lot better in med school.
    Does it really matter who is smarter?
    I chose DO school because I like it. Why does that make me inferior? C'mon give me a break..
    Have a nice day anyways,
    Duke [​IMG]
    Duke

    [This message has been edited by Duke (edited April 12, 1999).]
     
  30. MOXIEJEN DO 2003

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    Old man Dave--I am going to reference names here, not to single anyone out, but rather to reference the most recent post for that person. So don't be mad at me! [​IMG]

    Mevannorden-I SECOND THAT!

    Cliff- you bring up a very good point about marketing. DO's will need to market themselves, just as MD's do, but we luckily have the 'something else' to offer- OMM.

    and regarding research, as we know a greater percentage of DO's go into clinical practice rather than research, we have our MD counterparts to THANK for making great strides in developing treatments, procedures and drugs to help our patients.

    DOGBOY-Yes, Duke's grades may have "sucked", but DO schools tend to look beyond grades to see what may have affected them.

    Also, I don't remember any post saying that "they doubt the competence of their peers attending DO schools."

    EVERYONE-What is the purpose of this thread? I was under the impression that we were discussing the differences between MD's and DO's not "who's better".

    Old Man Dave-(How old are you anyways that you call yourself old? I'm 29, can you beat that?) What your perseverance showed is that you are able to get back on the horse after you have fallen off! What I would like to propose here is that an MD student with wonderful grades who breezed through undergrad may become more emotionally distressed when academic difficulties arise than some DO students with our (not-much)-lower GPA's who have experienced failures and are able to get back on and ride again. I failed an Organic Chemistry test once, but my resilience is what kept me going. It was an emotional set back, but I kept on trying. This can even be extrapolated to clinical practice. I would certainly appreciate a physician who would keep faith and fight on my behalf even if I suffered a relapse.

    and finally, Duke- no it doesn't make you inferior! Intelligence is more than book smarts. You need to look at your emotional intelligence as well, which I suspect in you is quite high.

    Have a good day everyone.
    jen

    [This message has been edited by MOXIEJEN DO 2003 (edited April 12, 1999).]
     
  31. sean

    sean Senior Member
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    To all who are participating in this thread. I regularly visit this site but usually don't have a lot of input as I have another three years before I can even apply to med-school. However I have to interject into this string. Grades are relative. They not only depend on how "smart" you are but also on the school you go to, the instructor you take, how many hours you work e.t.c... I am a 33 year old returning student and I expect to find a lot of resistence to my entering the medical profession as a physician. I have not decided yet which path to follow, M.D. or D.O. and so these discussions are very interesting to read. However they very quickly get stuck in a loop. To be admitted into either profession you must have proved yourself academically. What is being fought over her is a few percentage points. If we were discussing whether somebody with a 2.5 gpa average should be admitted to school before a 3.8 student then I would have to say no. However, 3.3 v's 3.6, it's so variable dependent thats it makes no sense to argue. As an older student I realize that I will need a 3.8+ to stand a good chance of getting in and so far I have managed to do this, but it says nothing about the kind of docter I will become. Anybody who thinks that someone with has a 3.3 gpa is not smart enough to be a doctor should reconsider what they believe the nature of a physician is. Gaining entrance to medical school requires a certain amount of tunnel vision, selfishness, as well as selflessness. Let us try to keep things in perspective, I doubt if there would be quite such heated debates about gpa if there were not such a surplus of applicants over medical school places available. what people are really saying is " I deserve to the opportunity to become a docor because I have proved myself, either by grades or other means," and they are all correct. I have never met a pre-med who I thought was not smart enough to become a competent doctor. I have however met many who I would not choose as my personal physician, and brains had nothing to do with it. G.P.A HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH COMPASSION. and anyone who believes that it does should be required to take a course in logic. If you want to argue that you deserve a place above someone else because you worked harder or are smarter, then that is a different arguement and you should be out in the open with it. Ultimatly the job you do as a practicing physician will either vindicate you personally or not and that is all that matters in the end is it not. Stop concentrating on other peoples grades and focus on what you believe is important, only then will you really perform. I would like to read more about the specifics of M.D and D.O. perhaps using real clinical situations. I think I will start a new string and see what happens. Sean.
     
  32. First I meant Cliff not Duke in regards to grades "suck" and I only mentioned that based on what HE said in his posting. Next this is my last post becasue most of you people don't refuse to really have an open mind. It really is amazing to hear how people bend my words to hear what they want and they obviously want something to be pissed off about. How many times do I have to say that I agree that grades are not indicative of the quality of physician one will become? How many? Because every time I say it you guys attack like vultures. All I said is that there are so many applicants with good grades that will make excellent physicians that those are the ones who should be accepted. How can you deny someone with a 3.8 and high MCATS with volunteer experience, research and strong letters over an applicant who has a 3.1 and 25-26 MCAT who also has strong letters and clinical experience and research? You can't and expecially if the lower numbers person is older. That is what occurs in medical school admissions like it or not. I know everyone who has worked hard deserves the chance to become a physician and I know older applicants have much more life experience and a bedside manner probably stronger than a 22-25 year old. That doesn't mean they will be a better doctor and that is what I am hearing. NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO , NO I am NOT saying people with lower numbers won't be good physicians just that it should be more difficult for them to gain admission to medical school.

    Sean I honestly wish you luck with medical school but it will be hard as hell to get into an MD school at 36 years old, especially if you had a poor academic record earlier. You may very well be accepted but be well aware just because you have a 4.0 now and strong MCATS and good life experiences doesn't guarantee that you will be accepted.

    Finally I hope the rest of you pirrhanas learn to allow others to voice their opinions and listen or read their opinion while keeping an open mind. Tell me if I am wrong but you just may have to listen to patients as a physician. I may have been sarcastic at times on this thread but I have been posting some legitimate comments recently and all you guys do is read it with an evil eye and burn me at the stake. Farewell!
     
  33. OsteoDOC

    OsteoDOC Member
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    DOGBOY,

    First, if you did mean the "chip" comment to be directed to me, then no problem. That is solved and dropped.

    Secondly, you mentioned that you have made comments on this thread that were sarcastic. I think we all have. But you need to realize that part of understanding sarcasm is actually hearing the person saying it. The tone of one's voice goes a long way. Obviously, reading something on a thread doesn't always allow the reader to understand whether you are serious, sacrastic, genuine, etc. So, try and see that point..whether or not you agree with it.

    As I have stated, we don't agree on everything. You have your opinion and I have mine. Now, if many people here disagree with your opinion, you don't need to get all upset about it. Voicing an opposing opinion does not make one a pirrhana. I do feel that if someone is attacking you personally, i.e. namecalling, then I would be upset with them because it is wrong.

    Like Old Man Dave, I am a little older medical student. I too bombed out during my early college years (my first 4 semesters GPA's were: 1.44, 2.0, 1.66, 2.3) and had to dig myself out of one VERY big hole. I studied harder, volunteered, worked as an EMT for 3 years, then worked as a paramedic for almost 10 years (I have worked throughout medical school because I have a wife and child). Osteopathic medical schools were more open to my application and hence accepted me and I will be forever greatful for that. My point is, everyone has reason's why they didn't get 3.8 GPA's and high MCAT scores. Like Dave, I had to work and provide for my family. You might have obtained higher numbers because you had help from your parents, you didn't work full-time as I had to and you didn't have a family. I don't know. But, because I had lower numbers, should it have been harder to get into medical school? You said yes, I disagree. You are right in that most allopathic medical schools agree with you and that is the way it is. All I can say is thank GOD for osteopathic medical schools who are willing to look beyond the numbers and see someone who can still becaome a good physician. I don't plan on letting them down.

    Brandon A,, MS4
    Western Univeristy/COMP
     
  34. VM

    VM Senior Member
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    Many of you assume DO students stats stink. I can tell that mine do not. I have also interviewed at a few allopathic programs such as St. Louis University, and Ohio State University. I am wait-listed at SLU. If I am not accepted to Ohio State (it is my state school and the tuition is very cheap) or maybe even if I am accepted there, I will attend one of the osteopathic medical schools I am accepted to. What is the problem you may ask. I can only believe it is because I am 29 years old and I was in a non-medical career. I have always gotten the questions about age and my previous career at the MD programs. The DO programs did not ask me about them in a critical way, but seemed to believe they were assets. This, in my opinion, is a big difference between the two medical branches. Since, many students are older, and may have changed careers, this may add to the lower GPAs and MCATs. Many of these older students may have not taken college seriously when they were younger. But, what matters is how they have done since they decided to pursue medicine.
    I believe the two degrees are equal with nearly equal opportunities. I certainly don't want to apply again. Lets quit squabbling about GPAs and MCATs and talk about the REAL differences between DOs and MDs. For instance, DOs must do the one year rotating internship in certain states in order to be licensed. If you went into certain specialties (like ACGME ones) this would be an additional year on top of the time to complete these specialties. This requirement in those states needs to be eliminated. What do you guys think about this or other REAL issues affecting DOs. Aren't there still a few ACGME specialties that shut out DOs? What about the geographical distribution of DOs? Aren't most of them still concentrated in the states where there are DO medical schools and hospitals. DOs seem to do great here in Ohio. The public here seems to know what a DO is and that the DO degree is equivalent to an MD with a few differences. Any comments are welcome.

    [This message has been edited by VM (edited April 12, 1999).]

    [This message has been edited by VM (edited April 12, 1999).]
     
  35. cliff

    cliff Senior Member
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    Oh yeah.

    Once you are IN, your grades and boards mean nothing. Right?

    What matters is how you do in med school and...

    Nighty night everyone.

    ------------------
     
  36. DJ

    DJ Member
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    This is just my 2 cents on patients' perception of the difference between M.D. and D.O. physician.
    Most of the patients that I have encountered while interning at a D.O. office could care less if their physician's name has a M.D. or D.O. after it. They are sick or in pain, and they just want to be treated. Most of the patients are HMO patients and they are assigned to whichever FP that are in their medical group. A lot of patients don't even know the doctor is a D.O. I guess it makes no difference to them as long as their pains are alleviated and their cold symptoms are cleared up.

    DJ
     
  37. Duke

    Duke Member
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    I wanted to write back because Dogboy seems a little disappointed with this discussion. I don't blame him, but people only hear what they want to hear sometimes. When I made my remarks, I wasn't referring to Dogboy. I just didn't didn't like the way the discussion was going. With all the writing going on, it's hard for a guy like me to keep track of what everyone is saying. I just don't have the time.
    Duke
     
  38. DOPhD student

    DOPhD student Senior Member
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    OsteoDoc, I suggest that you refrain from debating with a premed. Knowledge can be acquired only through exprience, and frankly, premeds have a lot of maturing to do. From my point of view, it's not only ironic that MD-wanna-be's at DOs schools will have to shoulder the imagined stigma of being DOs, but it's also ironic that Yale and Harvard grads work their asses off to finally get the inevitable privilege of working side by side with DO grads. Go figure. Save your energy. Save your breath and DO well in your FP residency.

    Oh by the way, just FYI, I'm involved with molecular research in NK cell field, and perhaps one day, Harvard students may reap the fruit of my labor. Ironic.
     
  39. OsteoDOC

    OsteoDOC Member
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    I need to clarify my last post. The first sentence directed at DOGBOY should have read, "if you did NOT mean the "chip" comment to be directed at me...

    DOPhD,

    To me honest with you, I didn't feel I was debating with DOGBOY but I can certainly see how it appeared to be. Just stateing one's opinions. Hopefully we can agree to disagree. I will say this regarding pre-med students. You really don't know what it is like to go through medical school until you actually do it. You can say I have "heard" that and "heard" this but everyone has their own views on it. Hell, even medical students differ in their perspectives on medical school especially when it comes to residency and opportunities. I suggest that if you talk to medical students, get their different opinions and then contemplate them but don't take them as gospel.

    My opinion and advice to premeds...stop worrying about DO v MS issues, stop worrying residencies, stop worrying about practicing in other countries and start worrying about getting INTO medical school and concentrate on getting through the first two years of didactic work. the rest will come.

    Brandon A, MS4
    Western University/COMP
     
  40. MOXIEJEN DO 2003

    10+ Year Member

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    This has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, but I am so excited I have to share this with all of you! My sister in law delivered my first niece this morning at 6:22 a.m. Pacific time, and I was present for the delivery. The baby came so fast the resident on duty had to deliver her because the OB didn't make it on time. Is anyone thinking of OB as a specialty? In those few moments I realized how many things can go wrong!

    I think Dogboy basically just wanted to say that he thinks people with the highest grades should get into medical school.

    Sean, although Dogboy feels that at 36 you will have a difficult time entering an MD school, if you are open to the DO philosophy, I'm sure with the proper credentials and experience they will be open to you.

    VM-Regarding the geographical distributions of DO's..I do think you are correct that the greatest number is where the DO schools are, but I think as sheer numbers of DO's increase, so will the migration to other states. I'm from California, but I will be attending MSU, and I'm not sure where I will wind up practicing...maybe Pacific Northwest..

    DJ-Regarding patients not caring if the physician is an MD or DO, you are true in cases of acute illness, but I know a few people who have been trying to seek out DO's for their primary care physicians so that they will have the added option of manipulative therapy.

    DoPhd- depending upon your gender-
    You go girl or You go boy! I am sorry if I did not pay enough respect towards the DO's in research areas.

    Osteodoc- AMEN on your statement "Thank God for DO schools looking beyond the numbers." (and to be honest, we must admit that they really don't look totally beyond the numbers, because a REALLY compassionate person with a 2.0 GPA would not be attending ANY medical school.)

    Maybe we could discuss how we think we as DO students should promote our profession and educate the public about how it is different from allopathic medicine. Anyone?

    Have a good day
    Jen
     
  41. OldManDave

    OldManDave Fossil Bouncer Emeritus
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    Brandon,

    In the heat of debate, I neglected to congratulate you on your FP residency...GOOD FOR YOU!! Now, go out there and do your best, as I know you will...most of all, do it for what dwells inside you, not because of the alphabet soup behind your name.

    Jen,

    AWESOME!! I have attended many deliveries, both section and vaginal...it's the MOST AMAZING PROCESS!!!!!

    To all of you who participated in this venture, thanks for trying to avoid getting emotional and/or personal. Despite my efforts, the controversy continues and will probably will do so for years to come. I don't know if there are merits to continuing the debate...but, if we chose to do so, let's start another thread, this one is getting WAY TOO LONG!!

    ------------------
    'Old Man Dave'
    Senior, Neurosciences
    Univ of Texas at Dallas
    Class of 1999
     

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