Ireland 2002 (again)

[waggon]

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i'm trying to continue that older thread because i'm applying to RCSI also. i studied in denmark my junior year and took some classes in a hospital, and i found the doctors to have a much more humanistic approach towards their patients. it's probably because they don't have to worry about malpractice litigation, so they make a diagnosis and can focus on the patient instead of worrying what they haven't ruled out. i know that socialized medicine has its faults, but it is so much more organized and fair than american health care. anyway that's why i want to live and study over in europe, and the types of inner-city clinic residencies that i'll probably be looking for won't be as competitive as surgery, radiology, etc.
but has anyone talked with american/canadian rcsi students and seen how they like it?

 

[jimjones]

Somebody I spoke with seemed pretty pleased, but the curriculum is somewhat different, makes studying for the boards, etc that much harder.

 

[leorl]

Hi,

as I've said before, I studied abroad for my junior year in Ireland and met many Americans and Canadian medical students there. One was even a Canadian gold medalist who put his athletic career aside to study medicine there (he'd discovered his desire to do medicine while at a training camp in South Africa, I'm not exactly sure how that came about). I met students from both RCSI and Trinity, and not one of them had a bad word to say. Everyone's very happy at these two colleges. Reasons why they came - a generalized view of what waggon said, more time in clinical training, life in Europe - people seeking a more humanistic/philanthropic approach. European system seems more encompassing, while in the US it seems very single track - there's more freedom over there, and it's definitely more cultural.

So, if you apply to Ireland and are the type that belongs there (waggon, you obviously are, since you've already ventured abroad), I'm sure you will be very happy. There is a lot found wanting in Irish healthcare (one problem is under-funding, not enough say...beds for patients, or lack of competency in the furthest outreaches of the counties) but not quite the same issues in the US, so let's you critique other forms of medical care and see how they apply back to the US system, or other European countries' systems. Anyways, each country has it's own host of healthcare problems.

As for studying for boards being harder. I don't think that's the case. There is extra studying to be done, since the Irish curriculum doesn't really cater to taking the USMLE and other steps. But my friends who took the USMLE did just fine, and as the Atlantic Bridge program stated, there's a 97% pass rate (I'm assuming of the whole boards in general) and a 100% match rate. Can't be that much harder 🙂 . And, the curriculum isn't all that different - they still learn the exact same things US med students do - I haven't done a matchup, but the US and Canadian students aren't lacking for any material when taking the boards exams.

 

[mika]

Does anyone know how easy/hard it is to get clinical rotations in the states if you're enrolled in an Ireland school?

Also, when applying for residency in the states which is more important: your board scores or where you did your degree? Do you think it's easier for a FMG to get in with lower board scores but attended a more reputable institution or vice versa? I realize residency is probably not based on these two factors alone but I just wanted to get a general idea....

 

[jimjones]

Somebody at UCD told me that you can do rotations in the US, but they don't count for his degree (ie he would have to do them over the summer)

Don't know about the other quest.

 

[waggon]

from what i just heard from a 1997 RCSI graduate who is now at harvard, RCSI seems to have a good network of connections internationally as far as residencies are concerned, a lot of alumni scattered around, so grads get matched up pretty well. and he also said that he had plenty of time to play sports and even direct plays while he was there, which was pretty cool.
but i actually have no idea what counts most in getting a residency -- might be better to ask a med student in the allopathic forum.

 

[jimjones]

Is there a match list anywhere on the internet of grads from Irish schools in US residencies?

 

[jimjones]

And I'm curious: did any of you guys apply to osteopathic schools in the US? Why/why not, thanks.

 

[leorl]

Hmm, I think there are match rates somewhere...try looking on the ERAS site. As far as obtaining rotations in the US, I'm not sure about the counting-towards-degree thing, but I'll ask. I know at Trinity, you're allowed to do electives elsewhere, and they really encourage people to do it at a 3rd world country (indigenous Australia, africa, etc) but after that I think you can do them anywhere else. Lemme ask my friends there.

From everything I've gathered from FMG resources, no...it's not good enough that you went to a reputable school...I think your board scores matter more. It's pretty much known that you must do well on boards to have a shot at competitive residencies and at competing with US-trained students. With everything, do it to the best of your abilities. Just because people went to Harvard doesn't mean they can slack off on boards. With foreign students, the cut off might be even higher. THere is also a cut off rate somewhere for board scores....check ERAS, it might be on that site.

 

[deleted4401]

Waggon,

I think you were in my DIS class, ... It's Simul Parikh ... So, you're thinking about RCSI? I was considering Aussie and Irish schools, but I ended up here at Tulane.

I know what you mean about the humanistic side of medicine over there. The doctors in Denmark "keep it real" ... When I went in to see the doc, he explained everything to me so clearly, made me feel comfortable, let me see what he was writing down. Shoot, they dress down so much, he was wearing a denim shirt and some khakis, and no white coat! It was just very comfortable, not stressful. I think they have a stronger biopsychosocial focus instead of the more disease-based focus here. A case can be made that it is more of a cultural difference than anything else ...

I miss DK like crazy ... I am working on getting a summer elective/internship over there this summer... That would be way cool.

Anyway, good luck with everything, and if you end up having interest in Tulane Med (a great place!) just holla: [email protected]

Simul
Tulane Med '05

 

[roo]

Some comments for Ireland, to answer some of the above, and some things not in, that might be helpful to you:

I would say from a student perspective, the healthcare system is good in Ireland. On the patient side though waiting lists are longer than they should be, and there is a public/private split which is a bit against the grain if a socialist medicine advocate.

Incidentally, a Trinity med student did go to Africa a few years back for elective and got sick there and passed--very tragic. Electives are laid out in advance with the schools' partners abroad. I can't think of UCD's off the bat right now--Kansas? Kentucky? and I believe Pennsylvania. These are usually done in the summer. Most folks make their own electives abroad, either at a place they want to work, a specialty center, or they have a relative in America in that city. The preclinical years have healthy summer breaks so there is plenty of time for abroad, research, etc in there to round out your training.

Here is the timeline of what you will be doing:
Year 1/2 (Combined)->Work very hard as doing 1st&2nd years together
Year 3->Reasonable workload
Year 4->Reasonable/light workload
Year 5->Res year: light: all have to do is watch/do and learn.
Year 6->Hard: final year: not much time as doing rotations and your interviews for residency.

In the summer before you come, I'd recommend getting a Moore's anatomy and at least glancing it through while you enjoy your summer. Irish medicine is medicine and surgery, so anatomy has a heavy time weighting since surgery is heavily time weighted in the clinical years.

Housing prices in Dublin have started the turn. The economy, due to the tech, is very strong, but it will eventually follow Silicon Valley's slide in housing costs.

If internet savvy enough to be on this board, internet savvy enough to track down some Irish grads and see where they went. Try some advanced altavista queries with 'MB BCh BAO' and some filters to find some where you live, to talk with. This is the Irish triple degree: medicine/surgery/obstetrics.

For licensing exams, the odd one didn't get through either not studying for the exam, or got an exam that was weighted very heavy on one subject that they were weak on. 1 or 2 are still waiting, but seems its going to end up about 90-95% of North Americans got through on first crack, some high results, some low, with the average seemed to average a bit higher than the overall mean for that test. Canadians will be writing theirs next year. There is no licensing exam equivalent in Ireland--tested orally at the end of each term to assess skill.

Last year there were 5 americans in the class. All matched. 2 had offers beforehand and turned them down.

I'd recommend coming to Ireland personally for a tour of the city, the university, and the hospital you are thinking of attending. Airfare is low currently and worthwhile to make an informed decision before spending 5 years of your life somewhere.

Best wishes, roo

 

[leorl]

Roo,

are you a Trinity student now? Would you happen to know Jane Jarecsni (6th year), Darren Barber (I think 5th year), or Leann Bell (4th year)? I know a bunch of 2nd years too 🙂 .

To add, great that housing prices are coming down. When I went, it was in the height of the housing shortage but I managed to be lucky enough to find housing in a couple days, for not too expensive. It started coming down when I left, though.

Thanks for clearing up residency elective options. Would you say that Trinity and the other schools are just as respected as RSCI in the US medical community? While Trinity has a great reputation worldwide for things like English, Drama which has expanded to other subjects (some sciences or engineering), how does their med school hold up? I know that the standards are high there and graduates are good, but does everyone else?