IRR Question

[goodstuff33]

I have been talking with an army recruiter who showed me an obligation chart showing that IRR time is counted while in residency. In other words, a four year scholarship and 3 year residency in IM (for example) would break down as 7 years active duty and one year IRR. If residency was four years, then 8 years active duty and 0 years IRR. I ask this question because I have read online that residency does not count for IRR. Maybe this has changed, but any comments would be helpful.

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[DogFaceMedic]

I have been talking with an army recruiter who showed me an obligation chart showing that IRR time is counted while in residency. In other words, a four year scholarship and 3 year residency in IM (for example) would break down as 7 years active duty and one year IRR. If residency was four years, then 8 years active duty and 0 years IRR. I ask this question because I have read online that residency does not count for IRR. Maybe this has changed, but any comments would be helpful.

Residency counts as IRR. When you sign you have a 8 yr statutory obligation from the day you raise your hand. Basically you are on the books whether active, reserve, nat'l guard. It is explained in the contract in detailed legaleze. Military residency counts for HPSP payback but you get a new obligation for the military residency. If civilian residency, your active duty obligation is delayed.

Ask the recruiter to look at a contract.

 

[Perrotfish]

I have been talking with an army recruiter who showed me an obligation chart showing that IRR time is counted while in residency. In other words, a four year scholarship and 3 year residency in IM (for example) would break down as 7 years active duty and one year IRR. If residency was four years, then 8 years active duty and 0 years IRR. I ask this question because I have read online that residency does not count for IRR. Maybe this has changed, but any comments would be helpful.

As long as you do a military residency, yes. Civilian deferment doesn't count.

 

[DogFaceMedic]

As long as you do a military residency, yes. Civilian deferment doesn't count.

Doesn't count for active obligation; it does count for stat obligation. But, whichever is the truth, read the contract yourself. Advice on anonymous forum has limited utility.

 

[met19]

Doesn't count for active obligation; it does count for stat obligation. But, whichever is the truth, read the contract yourself. Advice on anonymous forum has limited utility.

not sure what stat is. But it does count for time in service. I will enter the navy as an o-3 with 4 years in service (counts towards pay and promotions).

 

[DogFaceMedic]

not sure what stat is. But it does count for time in service. I will enter the navy as an o-3 with 4 years in service (counts towards pay and promotions).

Sorry: Stat is statutory obligation. It is the 8yrs every swingin **** is on the books from when they first raise their hand, no matter how they initially signed up.

 

[Perrotfish]

Sorry: Stat is statutory obligation. It is the 8yrs every swingin **** is on the books from when they first raise their hand, no matter how they initially signed up.

In that case I think you're incorrect, I don't think a civilian deferment residency counts towards that obligation, only military residencies do. Am I wrong about this?

 

[colbgw02]

In that case I think you're incorrect, I don't think a civilian deferment residency counts towards that obligation, only military residencies do. Am I wrong about this?

I think DFM is correct.

 

[i want out]

I think DFM is correct.

You all need to dig out the contract and read it if you have already signed, and if you haven't, you need to read it very carefully before signing.

IRR time doesn't start until you are done with school, so even though you raise your hand and swear in as an O1 reserve status while in school, they specifically wrote the contract to eliminate that reserve time as counting toward your 8 years.

Its been a while since I read the contract, so I am not going to guess how that applies to deferred vs military residency, but I would be willing to bet, that they are going to make every effort to keep you on the hook after your initial obligation is up.

for example, if you fail to resign your commission after your IRR obligation is done, then you will remain on the books as IRR indefinitely.

i want out (of IRR)

 

[BomberDoc]

I heard a nasty rumor (and I hope that's all it is) that the Army and Navy are getting ready to call back people on IRR. Not sure if that includes docs yet. Can anybody verify? I know that the Marines are doing another recall of IRR for possible activation in early 2008.
http://www.usmc.mil/maradmins/marad...c827446f5fc28a63852571d300775651?OpenDocument
Of course this particular activation doesn't mention medics, but these are scary times to be sitting in the IRR praying that the military doesn't see fit to sodomize you again.

 

[met19]

You;re correct. In regards to civ residency deferrment: it does not count towards IRR time. Only towards time towards pay/promotion. E.g. why I will start as an O-3 with 4 years rather than just an O-3.

You all need to dig out the contract and read it if you have already signed, and if you haven't, you need to read it very carefully before signing.

IRR time doesn't start until you are done with school, so even though you raise your hand and swear in as an O1 reserve status while in school, they specifically wrote the contract to eliminate that reserve time as counting toward your 8 years.

Its been a while since I read the contract, so I am not going to guess how that applies to deferred vs military residency, but I would be willing to bet, that they are going to make every effort to keep you on the hook after your initial obligation is up.

for example, if you fail to resign your commission after your IRR obligation is done, then you will remain on the books as IRR indefinitely.

i want out (of IRR)

 

[NavyFP]

I heard a nasty rumor (and I hope that's all it is) that the Army and Navy are getting ready to call back people on IRR. Not sure if that includes docs yet. Can anybody verify? I know that the Marines are doing another recall of IRR for possible activation in early 2008.
http://www.usmc.mil/maradmins/marad...c827446f5fc28a63852571d300775651?OpenDocument
Of course this particular activation doesn't mention medics, but these are scary times to be sitting in the IRR praying that the military doesn't see fit to sodomize you again.

I think that rumor holds no water. I have heard no rumblings that the IRR for the Navy would be utilized. Army has been doing it for several years, just not in medical.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

You all need to dig out the contract and read it if you have already signed, and if you haven't, you need to read it very carefully before signing.

IRR time doesn't start until you are done with school, so even though you raise your hand and swear in as an O1 reserve status while in school, they specifically wrote the contract to eliminate that reserve time as counting toward your 8 years.

Its been a while since I read the contract, so I am not going to guess how that applies to deferred vs military residency, but I would be willing to bet, that they are going to make every effort to keep you on the hook after your initial obligation is up.

for example, if you fail to resign your commission after your IRR obligation is done, then you will remain on the books as IRR indefinitely.

i want out (of IRR)

True, but as long as you are keeping up with your contact information with the Reserve command--those folks who send you a letter once a year or so confirming your address and asking whether you know any new foreign languages--you will be asked whether you want to resign once your IRR obligation is complete.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

I never received a letter from the IRR asking if I want to resign once my obligation was up. That really doesn't matter since I took the HSCP afterwards, but they never approached me with the offer of resigning.

What was your status at that time?

If you were still on active duty, obviously they wouldn't be sending you a letter. If you were on active reserve status, same thing. The offers come if you are on IRR-S2 status and are not within your initial eight year obligation. All the letter asks is whether you want to resign your commission or not. If you resign, they issue you the wall certificate for honorable discharge.

 

[sethco]

I heard a nasty rumor (and I hope that's all it is) that the Army and Navy are getting ready to call back people on IRR. Not sure if that includes docs yet. Can anybody verify? I know that the Marines are doing another recall of IRR for possible activation in early 2008.
http://www.usmc.mil/maradmins/marad...c827446f5fc28a63852571d300775651?OpenDocument
Of course this particular activation doesn't mention medics, but these are scary times to be sitting in the IRR praying that the military doesn't see fit to sodomize you again.

Here is some good reference material (Maybe we can sticky this or something?)...

http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/123513p.pdf

and

http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/121518p.pdf

For those of us that this applies (i.e. GMOs that are going into residency after finishing their ADSC or going into a fellowship/another residency after their ADSC)...

6.4. Hardships and Delays
6.4.1. Hardships. Individuals with orders to involuntary AD that shall result in
extreme community or personal hardship, on their request, may be transferred to the
Standby Reserve, the Retired Reserve, or may be discharged, in accordance with DoD
Directive 1200.7 (reference (g)).
6.4.2. Delays. Individuals involuntarily ordered to AD or ADT under this
section, may be authorized a delay, according to the rules set by the Secretary concerned.
6.5. Exceptions. Members of the Ready Reserve that are unable to participate for
any of the following reasons shall be processed, as indicated:


6.5.6. Individuals Enrolled in Health Professions Graduate Study. Individuals
enrolled in a course of graduate study in one of the health professions shall be screened,
in accordance with DoD Directive 6000.12 (reference (j)).

 

[sethco]

My only question though is does internship year (if was civilian based), count towards the 8 year Minimum Service Obligation (MSO)?

(i.e. 1 year civilian internship + 4 years AD, leaving only 3 years of IRR?)

 

[BomberDoc]

Bravo, sethco! Thanks for the info. Also good question regarding civ internship counting against IRR. Somehow I doubt it, but will see if anybody knows...

 

[NavyFP]

My only question though is does internship year (if was civilian based), count towards the 8 year Minimum Service Obligation (MSO)?

(i.e. 1 year civilian internship + 4 years AD, leaving only 3 years of IRR?)

That is a point of active debate. Current opinion is that your IRR clock starts when you start active duty. Others feel it starts with graduation from med school. It will depend on who is making the decision when you submit your resignation.

 

[BomberDoc]

Has anybody tried to resign their commission at the end of active duty? Do they officially refuse your resignation or just ignore you? Am I still subject to the UCMJ while I'm stuck on IRR? Can I publicly support a political candidate? Can I run for office? Can I go to Amsterdam and get high? Can they pee test me? Just thinking of ways to start a legal battle...

 

[i want out]

Has anybody tried to resign their commission at the end of active duty? Do they officially refuse your resignation or just ignore you? Am I still subject to the UCMJ while I'm stuck on IRR? Can I publicly support a political candidate? Can I run for office? Can I go to Amsterdam and get high? Can they pee test me? Just thinking of ways to start a legal battle...

you can try to resign at the end of your active duty obligation, but what you will get is a contingent approval.

Your resignation is effective only if you accept an appointment to the IRR.

There is even language in there about your CO being responsible for stopping out processing and keeping you around if you don't sign the IRR appointment

I WANT OUT (of IRR)

 

[179466]

Does a military PGY-1 year (ie. transitional internship) count against your 4 yrs of IRR?

 

[alpha62]

I did a total of 16 years in IRR. It kinda just happened along the way, I just never bothered to do the paperwork.

You better call St. Louis. I also suggest you record every conversation, save every email, and send EVERYTHING registered mail.

I've got a set of orders that simply say " You have no military status " That's it. no parade, no thank you, no appeal to stay in. It's a freaken lovely piece of artwork and I laminated it, keep it in my drawer, just in case.

You wouldn't believe what I had to do to get that discharge either. Nobody is going to tell you how to resign.

When I d/c from AD, I drove 25 miles down the road, stopped, faxed them the REFRAD orders... Then I called them q2d and bugged the hell out of them.

Got the resigniation in about 6 weeks. You gotta let them know that if they try and pull you back, they'll choke on you.

Remember, the assclowns that work the IRR system are just like any other POS REMF you've met along the way. They just want you off their back, their desk clear by 4 pm, and off to happy hour.

Most of the time, they're incontient with fear they're number is going to come up and they'll be deployed. Use that fear of putting the light on them to your advantage. A REMF doesn't want any kind of attention brought on them.

I've been banned on this site 1/2 dozen times, but I've worked with these clowns for 23 years. One thing I learned, in hell, it's not the heat that is tormenting... it's the a$$holes you're down there with.

Looks like the current suicide rates bear that out.

 

[NavyFP]

Does a military PGY-1 year (ie. transitional internship) count against your 4 yrs of IRR?

If done on Active Duty: yes.
If not. No.

 

[sethco]

If done on Active Duty: yes.
If not. No.

Where did you find this? Is it in the original HPSP contract that we signed or is it a memorandum?

 

[NavyFP]

Military residency counts for HPSP payback but you get a new obligation for the military residency.

No, but payback is concurrent, so it is effecitively the same.

 

[NavyFP]

Where did you find this? Is it in the original HPSP contract that we signed or is it a memorandum?

No, it is an interpretation of Title 10. Unfortunately there is no instruction that regulates the many of the nuances that affect us in the Medical Corps. Much of it is based on a form of "case law" (and I use that term generously, there are no court type rulings on this) that is left to the interpretation of the Manpower shop at BUMED and BUPERS. It can change with the person doing the interpretation. The current interpretation is that the IRR clock starts the day you report to your first duty station.

 

[DogFaceMedic]

No, it is an interpretation of Title 10. Unfortunately there is no instruction that regulates the many of the nuances that affect us in the Medical Corps. Much of it is based on a form of "case law" (and I use that term generously, there are no court type rulings on this) that is left to the interpretation of the Manpower shop at BUMED and BUPERS. It can change with the person doing the interpretation. The current interpretation is that the IRR clock starts the day you report to your first duty station.

It is in my Army contract. The first day of active duty FYGME, not USAR in ADT status. If in doubt, contact the OTSG or the Navy/USAF equivelant. And never take legal advice from a recruiting office or a barracks.

 

[alpha62]

It is in my Army contract. The first day of active duty FYGME, not USAR in ADT status. If in doubt, contact the OTSG or the Navy/USAF equivelant. And never take legal advice from a recruiting office or a barracks.

I don't even think I'd take legal advice from TDS or JAG either. they're in the same boat, a bunch of pissed off people marking time to get out.

I'd take the contract to a civilian lawyer.

 

[NavyFP]

It is in my Army contract. The first day of active duty FYGME, not USAR in ADT status. If in doubt, contact the OTSG or the Navy/USAF equivelant. And never take legal advice from a recruiting office or a barracks.

True, any time spent in HPSP is not counted and that is in the contract, but it gets stickier when you supercede to O-3. You become a different entity because you start acruing time towards pay and promotion.

 

[trail doc]

No, it is an interpretation of Title 10. .... The current interpretation is that the IRR clock starts the day you report to your first duty station.

What is this Title 10 of which you speak, and where do I find it? From what you're saying, it sounds that if we did a military internship, that's one year off our IRR obligation.

 

[usnavdoc]

What is this Title 10 of which you speak, and where do I find it? From what you're saying, it sounds that if we did a military internship, that's one year off our IRR obligation.

Everyone is making this more confusing than it needs to be. When you joined HPSP you incurred an 8 year obligation which started the day you presented for your first AD assignment. Part of it is AD part is IRR. Dont think of them as separate obligations.

So for me I had a 4 year HPSP program but served 5 years on AD counting internship therefore I owe 3 years to IRR. Now down to 16 months!

If you do your residency in the military you will likely(depending on residency choice and the need for GMO time) be on AD longer than 8 years so you will have NO IRR obligation.

 

[alpha62]

it's designed to be confusing on purpose.

Lots of wiggle room to interpet the contract however they want.

Get a civlian lawyer that's been doing contract law for 25 years, not some poor JAG hack fresh out of school, really doesn't give one **** about your case, and you just took up some of his valuble time crusing porn in an internet cafe out in the ville.

Your local JAG officer is probably pissed off because he was promised a soft job doing pot smoking GIs in the barracks cases. Instead, he's getting deployed to a unit selecting targets and taking the blame when things go wrong.

This whole system is built on one hater hating on the other guy and if he's gotta go... well, he figures you gotta go too.

If you're that freakin worried about this, get a second opinion. Isn't that what you tell your pts ?

 

[NavyFP]

What is this Title 10 of which you speak, and where do I find it? From what you're saying, it sounds that if we did a military internship, that's one year off our IRR obligation.

That would be correct.

 

[MaximusD]

I don't even think I'd take legal advice from TDS or JAG either. they're in the same boat, a bunch of pissed off people marking time to get out.

I'd take the contract to a civilian lawyer.

This is bull****. I know a JAG who is extremely successful within the military and on the outside.

What the hell do you know about law anyway? What an unfair generalization to make. I am sure that there are ****ty physicians in teh military. Would it be fair to generalize them all that way, though? Hell no.

I know a JAG who is now extremely high in the military in terms of rank... and didn't just bide his time 'til his obligation was up... I understand that for every person like this there are others who arent, but your generalization is irritating, nonetheless.

 

[alpha62]

This is bull****. I know a JAG who is extremely successful within the military and on the outside.

What the hell do you know about law anyway? What an unfair generalization to make. I am sure that there are ****ty physicians in teh military. Would it be fair to generalize them all that way, though? Hell no.

I know a JAG who is now extremely high in the military in terms of rank... and didn't just bide his time 'til his obligation was up... I understand that for every person like this there are others who arent, but your generalization is irritating, nonetheless.

Good for you then. I know a JAG that was shaking down mammasans in the ville in Korea for free blowjobs and I was regularly awakened by a slamming BOQ door every sunday morning by a freaken whacked out lower enlisted barracks troll doing the walk of shame.

You actually are in the military , right ?