Is American attending life as cushy as the salary makes it seem?

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electiveresearch2

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Hi all,

I am a junior doctor based in the UK and was recently comparing salaries of doctors.

American attendings by far get paid the most. I know they leave medical school with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and need to repay it, but after that, are attendings swimming in gold? Or do all the expenses go on things like children's education (which I hear can be up to $50,000 per year in some instances) and malpractice insurance etc?

Looking forward to some replies 🙂
 
Youll prolly get responses of attendings telling you that medicine sucks and to not go into it and insurance is crappy and not what it used to be but they are probably just the old sour ones that are burnt out and negative. Overall being an American physician kicks ass. Amazing job security great pay (pretty much guaranteed $230,000+ per year if you dont care where you practice. Some neurosurgeons/plastic surgeons can make multiple millions per yr. Its a great profession here. Sure youre in debt when you come out but you pay it off
 
Hi all,

I am a junior doctor based in the UK and was recently comparing salaries of doctors.

American attendings by far get paid the most. I know they leave medical school with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and need to repay it, but after that, are attendings swimming in gold? Or do all the expenses go on things like children's education (which I hear can be up to $50,000 per year in some instances) and malpractice insurance etc?

Looking forward to some replies 🙂
I'm just curious but how much were the salaries that were listed?
 
Probably depends how old they are and what their debt situation is. I know a lot of older docs that enjoy life and are always traveling all over the world. Others that aren’t because they got divorced 3 times and their paychecks go to alimony. I’m sure even younger docs are enjoying their life a lot, especially if they’re single.
 
Hi all,

I am a junior doctor based in the UK and was recently comparing salaries of doctors.

American attendings by far get paid the most. I know they leave medical school with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and need to repay it, but after that, are attendings swimming in gold? Or do all the expenses go on things like children's education (which I hear can be up to $50,000 per year in some instances) and malpractice insurance etc?

Looking forward to some replies 🙂

I doubt many people around the country are paying 50k for children's education. We do have the socialist institution known as tax payer funded public education in this country but quality definitely varies. A typical private high school in the US would cost around 10-15k per year. In general, if you can live in an area with a good tax base and well educated demographic the public schools will be more than adequate to prepare children for college.

In general, being a physician in America - more than any other profession that a reasonable individual can hope to be a part of - allows a level of earning that offers an opportunity for financial freedom and independence for those who are good stewards of their money. Even in the lowest reimbursing specialties, your floor currently for full-time work is probably around 200k.
 
I doubt many people around the country are paying 50k for children's education. We do have the socialist institution known as tax payer funded public education in this country but quality definitely varies. A typical private high school in the US would cost around 10-15k per year. In general, if you can live in an area with a good tax base and well educated demographic the public schools will be more than adequate to prepare children for college.

In general, being a physician in America - more than any other profession that a reasonable individual can hope to be a part of - allows a level of earning that offers an opportunity for financial freedom and independence for those who are good stewards of their money. Even in the lowest reimbursing specialties, your floor currently for full-time work is probably around 200k.

I’m guessing he meant college when he said $50k.
 
I’m guessing he meant college when he said $50k.

I'll expand on that then. An American physician who saves and invests early toward their children's education should have no difficulty funding even the most expensive private university assuming they have an average number of kids. That's not even considering the possibility of scholarships, financial aid packages, or less costly public schools which can be every bit as high quality.
 
Depends a LOT on specialty, for both lifestyle and effective hourly $$$.

It remains true that for a bright young student in America, there is nothing that can compete with the competitive lifestyle-oriented medical specialties in terms of guaranteed top 1% income, high stability/security, and reasonable hours. People like to say the grass is greener over in finance or consulting or law, but really they're just looking at the fringe outliers, and ignoring that their attrition rate up the ladder is very high and their lifestyles suck along the way too. And even if you aren't a top med student with Derm on the table, there's plenty of less competitive options (like psych, PM&R, rads, path, anesthesia) that can still have incomes and lifestyles that the average American JDs and PhDs and consultants would envy.
 
It’s good for sure, but not swimming in gold .

I expect to have my debt paid off around 40. Then I have to save up retirement on top of it. My kids won’t get need based financial aid, so I will shell out a lot for their schooling. Houses can be very expensive. There are lots of things to eat that salary down.

Physicians are wealthy enough to not have to think about money, live comfortably, afford to retire early, and travel. All huge privileges compared to the average American, but you’re not going to have a crazy excessive amount of wealth. I will also only have that wealth 22 years after graduating high school and working my butt off. That debt knocks out a lot of money

ouch man, 40 is a long time.

this is the answer to your question op. The downside to a high income is having a negative net worth for around half of your life
 
Hi all,

I am a junior doctor based in the UK and was recently comparing salaries of doctors.

American attendings by far get paid the most. I know they leave medical school with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and need to repay it, but after that, are attendings swimming in gold? Or do all the expenses go on things like children's education (which I hear can be up to $50,000 per year in some instances) and malpractice insurance etc?

Looking forward to some replies 🙂
Here is the answer to your question:

American attendings are rich (not wealthy) despite what you see in SDN.
 
Pay as an attending physician provides for a comfortable life. What that allows you to buy and how it allows you to live depends on where you want to practice (urban versus rural). The option to work more or offer more lucrative services is always there. However, after a certain level of income, I think quality of life becomes much more important than maximizing income.
 
ouch man, 40 is a long time.

this is the answer to your question op. The downside to a high income is having a negative net worth for around half of your life

You might have to wait until your 40 to reach financial independence (debt free with a nice retirement/saving account). However, starting as early as age 29 (any 3 year residency) you can be making a decent income, be on track to reach a great place by age 40 while being able to spend more than the average person who is your same age.

The average person making well under 80k a year might have a little more saved up and even be debt free (not counting mortgage) at the age of 30, however, they save at a slower pace and have less money to spend/enjoy in their 30’s.

this became evident to me when a nurse who is 10 years older than me had a flood in her basement costing her a huge chunk of her savings to fix. Only two years out from my training such a problem wouldn’t set me back as much. So, while I’ll be in debt for the next 3 years paying off my loans, I’m not living poorly until I’m 40.
 
Youll prolly get responses of attendings telling you that medicine sucks and to not go into it and insurance is crappy and not what it used to be but they are probably just the old sour ones that are burnt out and negative. Overall being an American physician kicks ass. Amazing job security great pay (pretty much guaranteed $230,000+ per year if you dont care where you practice. Some neurosurgeons/plastic surgeons can make multiple millions per yr. Its a great profession here. Sure youre in debt when you come out but you pay it off
You're a student. Post on here ten years later pls
 
American physicians work all the time. They don't shut off the clock at 500 and go home. Lots of documentation, cya care for malpractice, eye on bad outcomes, as the US is sue happy. License can be lost by med board. Very stressed to practice in us.

Although American physicians likely work the longest hours among their colleagues worldwide I don't think medicine is a clock-in/clock-out profession in many places. I can't cite sources but I feel like I've read about physicians in the UK and Germany getting squeezed pretty bad as far as hours go recently.

I'd be interested to know if there is a disparity in documentation requirements between the US system and those in other western countries. I know systems like Canada's have significantly less overhead. If anyone has had experience in other systems feel free to chime in regarding litigation or documentation requirements. Those are definitely some of the major downsides to our system from the provider end of things.
 
You're a student. Post on here ten years later pls
Thats literally the response i get everytime i talk to a physician. I dont need to be a physician to make a statement about a personal experience that I hear all too frequently. Im also free to voice my opinion as well doesnt mean you have to agree with it. Sounds like youre one of the salty ones buddy
 
American physicians work all the time. They don't shut off the clock at 500 and go home. Lots of documentation, cya care for malpractice, eye on bad outcomes, as the US is sue happy. License can be lost by med board. Very stressed to practice in us.
This really depends on the specialty. Compare NS and OB to Allergy or PMR in regards to malpractice and hours AI and PMR can very well clock out by 5 and as far as getting sued not even close to NS or OB stress in that regard. meanwhile all 4 make over 250K per year easily and the latter 2 working pretty much school day hours if they so please. Sure everyone has paper work but if you weren't doing paperwork as a physician youd be doing it in an office cubicle somewhere else making a lot less money statistically
 
Hi all,

I am a junior doctor based in the UK and was recently comparing salaries of doctors.

American attendings by far get paid the most. I know they leave medical school with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and need to repay it, but after that, are attendings swimming in gold? Or do all the expenses go on things like children's education (which I hear can be up to $50,000 per year in some instances) and malpractice insurance etc?

Looking forward to some replies 🙂
US physicians graduate with an average of $190,000 from public and $210,000 from private school, Seems that the median residency length is 4 yrs but I imagine so many more people go into the shorter length ones that the weighted average would be more towards 3 years. At 7 yrs of compounding interest that makes for nearly a quarter of a million dollars in debt upon residency completion, if you go the short residency route. Average salary is about $300,000 across all physicians (with the floor being near $230,000). SO, most people come out of residency with an annual salary that about matches their debt.

All of this was to lead to this question @electiveresearch2 , how does that compare to physicians in the UK?
 
I doubt many people around the country are paying 50k for children's education. We do have the socialist institution known as tax payer funded public education in this country but quality definitely varies. A typical private high school in the US would cost around 10-15k per year. In general, if you can live in an area with a good tax base and well educated demographic the public schools will be more than adequate to prepare children for college.

In general, being a physician in America - more than any other profession that a reasonable individual can hope to be a part of - allows a level of earning that offers an opportunity for financial freedom and independence for those who are good stewards of their money. Even in the lowest reimbursing specialties, your floor currently for full-time work is probably around 200k.
It’s good for sure, but not swimming in gold .

I expect to have my debt paid off around 40. Then I have to save up retirement on top of it. My kids won’t get need based financial aid, so I will shell out a lot for their schooling. Houses can be very expensive. There are lots of things to eat that salary down.

Physicians are wealthy enough to not have to think about money, live comfortably, afford to retire early, and travel. All huge privileges compared to the average American, but you’re not going to have a crazy excessive amount of wealth. I will also only have that wealth 22 years after graduating high school and working my butt off. That debt knocks out a lot of money
Pay is great. Life is not cushy. We work pretty hard on average.

Depends a LOT on specialty, for both lifestyle and effective hourly $$$.

It remains true that for a bright young student in America, there is nothing that can compete with the competitive lifestyle-oriented medical specialties in terms of guaranteed top 1% income, high stability/security, and reasonable hours. People like to say the grass is greener over in finance or consulting or law, but really they're just looking at the fringe outliers, and ignoring that their attrition rate up the ladder is very high and their lifestyles suck along the way too. And even if you aren't a top med student with Derm on the table, there's plenty of less competitive options (like psych, PM&R, rads, path, anesthesia) that can still have incomes and lifestyles that the average American JDs and PhDs and consultants would envy.
Pay as an attending physician provides for a comfortable life. What that allows you to buy and how it allows you to live depends on where you want to practice (urban versus rural). The option to work more or offer more lucrative services is always there. However, after a certain level of income, I think quality of life becomes much more important than maximizing income.
It's nice...it's not crazy though. I don't feel rich.

My lifestyle didn't really change after residency but I no longer have to save up for things and my investments grow faster.
You might have to wait until your 40 to reach financial independence (debt free with a nice retirement/saving account). However, starting as early as age 29 (any 3 year residency) you can be making a decent income, be on track to reach a great place by age 40 while being able to spend more than the average person who is your same age.

The average person making well under 80k a year might have a little more saved up and even be debt free (not counting mortgage) at the age of 30, however, they save at a slower pace and have less money to spend/enjoy in their 30’s.

this became evident to me when a nurse who is 10 years older than me had a flood in her basement costing her a huge chunk of her savings to fix. Only two years out from my training such a problem wouldn’t set me back as much. So, while I’ll be in debt for the next 3 years paying off my loans, I’m not living poorly until I’m 40.
As long as you don't blow all of your 200K+ salary in the first year or so after earning it, you'll be fine. Someone I went to school went had to ask her dad for rent money during her first few years out of residency due to barely making it.

Thanks for everyone's replies so far, has been enjoyable to read your responses.

Two follow-up questions:

1) I'm guessing that the consensus is therefore that being mired in so much debt and "losing" your youthful years studying and then working up to 80-hour weeks as residents was worth it?

2) How much paid leave do attendings get in the US? As little as 2 weeks, or more?

Although American physicians likely work the longest hours among their colleagues worldwide I don't think medicine is a clock-in/clock-out profession in many places. I can't cite sources but I feel like I've read about physicians in the UK and Germany getting squeezed pretty bad as far as hours go recently.

I'd be interested to know if there is a disparity in documentation requirements between the US system and those in other western countries. I know systems like Canada's have significantly less overhead. If anyone has had experience in other systems feel free to chime in regarding litigation or documentation requirements. Those are definitely some of the major downsides to our system from the provider end of things.

In the UK you are not "required" to document as much as the US, as far as I understand. However, we are strongly encouraged to diligently document everything since patients here are very slowly shifting to becoming more sue-happy, and it's not uncommon to see defensive medicine being practiced just to rule out the worst in case it comes back to bite you in a few years.

US physicians graduate with an average of $190,000 from public and $210,000 from private school, Seems that the median residency length is 4 yrs but I imagine so many more people go into the shorter length ones that the weighted average would be more towards 3 years. At 7 yrs of compounding interest that makes for nearly a quarter of a million dollars in debt upon residency completion, if you go the short residency route. Average salary is about $300,000 across all physicians (with the floor being near $230,000). SO, most people come out of residency with an annual salary that about matches their debt.

All of this was to lead to this question @electiveresearch2 , how does that compare to physicians in the UK?

Physician pay in the UK is not as much as the US at the highest level.

Registrars (residents) get paid variable amounts depending on banding (on-call commitments) and which region of the UK they are working in, but a good guide is approx £40,000 for junior registrars (approx 3 years duration) and £50,000 for senior registrars (approx 4 years duration).

Consultants (attendings) start at approx £80,000 and the more years they work, the greater increments they receive to their salary, which can lead to approx £100,000. If they are in specialties with good opportunities for private practice, this can be increased quite considerably at the expense of extra work in the evenings/weekends. The extent of extra remuneration I'm not quite sure - it's not a question I ask my bosses!

However we do not leave university with so much debt due to reduced university fees (was £3000/year at my time, now £9000/year). So it's very possible indeed to graduate debt-free, and there's no requirement for an undergraduate degree before pursuing medicine.
 
Physician pay in the UK is not as much as the US at the highest level.

Registrars (residents) get paid variable amounts depending on banding (on-call commitments) and which region of the UK they are working in, but a good guide is approx £40,000 for junior registrars (approx 3 years duration) and £50,000 for senior registrars (approx 4 years duration).

Consultants (attendings) start at approx £80,000 and the more years they work, the greater increments they receive to their salary, which can lead to approx £100,000. If they are in specialties with good opportunities for private practice, this can be increased quite considerably at the expense of extra work in the evenings/weekends. The extent of extra remuneration I'm not quite sure - it's not a question I ask my bosses!

However we do not leave university with so much debt due to reduced university fees (was £3000/year at my time, now £9000/year). So it's very possible indeed to graduate debt-free, and there's no requirement for an undergraduate degree before pursuing medicine.
Interestingly, the resident/registrar pay seems somewhat comparable. though £50,000 is certainly on the highest-end. More realistically is mid-40's to high 50's in USD.
 
Consultants (attendings) start at approx £80,000 and the more years they work, the greater increments they receive to their salary, which can lead to approx £100,000. If they are in specialties with good opportunities for private practice, this can be increased quite considerably at the expense of extra work in the evenings/weekends. The extent of extra remuneration I'm not quite sure - it's not a question I ask my bosses!

I feel bad for Attendings making 80-100K. Graduating without debt sounds nice but that doesn't justify such low salaries. Realistically US physicians can be debt free in 2 or 3 years
 
There’s no place in the world where doctors get paid as much as the United States. It’s not uncommon for doctors to drive Ferraris and Astons in the US. I’m not sure where else in the world where this is true.
 
I just finished residency in June, so I feel comfortable discussing this. For the record, my gross salary is around $300k - probably a bit more - and I graduated with roughly $140k of education debt.

My wife and I have more than enough to live quite comfortably. No, I'm not living a life of luxury - part of that is an intentional decision to continue "living like a resident" so that I can focus on paying down debt - but my wife and I live a more than comfortable life. We do not have to worry about basic needs and even somewhat extravagant wants. Dropping $10k to go on a trip on a whim isn't a problem. I'm able to fairly easily meet annual limits for tax-deferred retirement contributions and still save an additional 10% each month in my brokerage account. I'm paying $8k/month to pay off student loans and expect to have those paid off in 18 months or less.

Am I swimming in gold? No, I don't think so. Having achieved the precipice that is being an attending, frankly my day-to-day material life hasn't really changed much at all - but that's because I'm trying to be smarter about my money rather than pissing it away on stupid crap. I could go out and buy a $100k car today if I wanted to. I could spend my money on a bunch of other pointless luxuries if I wanted to (and I sort of do, just not to a crazy degree). Instead, though, I'm focusing on paying off my debt so that in 15-20 years I can be in a good position and not have to work if I don't want to.

You will are unlikely become uber rich as a physician - and certainly not by simply becoming a physician (the people you hear about making 7-figure salaries work their asses off - that kind of salary doesn't just arrive at your doorstep). However, assuming you have some ability to engage in long-term planning and somewhat reasonable impulse control, you will not want for anything and will have more than enough money to satisfy your needs and most of your wants.
 
Thanks for everyone's replies so far, has been enjoyable to read your responses.

2) How much paid leave do attendings get in the US? As little as 2 weeks, or more?

Residents generally get 3-4 weeks per year of paid vacation. From what I've seen, as an attending, its extremely dependent on field, personality and practice set-up. A crazy trauma surgeon may take q2 call and hardly take a vacation in his entire career (this is a real thing). On the flip side, certain hospital based fields where you don't follow patients longitudinally or have to pay an office staff (rads, anesthesia, em) you may be able to take 2-3 months off. Hospitalists often work a 7-on, 7-off schedule. Long days while you are working but considerable number of days off per year.

Consultants (attendings) start at approx £80,000 and the more years they work, the greater increments they receive to their salary, which can lead to approx £100,000. If they are in specialties with good opportunities for private practice, this can be increased quite considerably at the expense of extra work in the evenings/weekends. The extent of extra remuneration I'm not quite sure - it's not a question I ask my bosses!

Stuff like this is probably why I've heard rumors of UK docs moving to greener pastures in Australia. Now, in general, American professionals of all disciplines are better paid than their British counterparts from what I've heard. I know plenty of engineers and computer scientists making equal or greater than the equivalent of 80,000 pounds just 3-5 years out of university. We actually have a 2-year masters degree program called a Physician Assistant that holds a market value of $100,000 or more fresh out. It is a travesty to me that the NHS is paying mid-career and senior consultants at the same level.
 
From a med student perspective I will say that the debt sucks and can be soul-crushing to look at...although sometimes it's a damn good study motivator to check your loan statements. It also raises the stakes of your education that much more, and essentially keeps a minority of people each year from dropping out because they feel trapped.
 
I just finished residency in June, so I feel comfortable discussing this. For the record, my gross salary is around $300k - probably a bit more - and I graduated with roughly $140k of education debt.

My wife and I have more than enough to live quite comfortably. No, I'm not living a life of luxury - part of that is an intentional decision to continue "living like a resident" so that I can focus on paying down debt - but my wife and I live a more than comfortable life. We do not have to worry about basic needs and even somewhat extravagant wants. Dropping $10k to go on a trip on a whim isn't a problem. I'm able to fairly easily meet annual limits for tax-deferred retirement contributions and still save an additional 10% each month in my brokerage account. I'm paying $8k/month to pay off student loans and expect to have those paid off in 18 months or less.

Am I swimming in gold? No, I don't think so. Having achieved the precipice that is being an attending, frankly my day-to-day material life hasn't really changed much at all - but that's because I'm trying to be smarter about my money rather than pissing it away on stupid crap. I could go out and buy a $100k car today if I wanted to. I could spend my money on a bunch of other pointless luxuries if I wanted to (and I sort of do, just not to a crazy degree). Instead, though, I'm focusing on paying off my debt so that in 15-20 years I can be in a good position and not have to work if I don't want to.

You will are unlikely become uber rich as a physician - and certainly not by simply becoming a physician (the people you hear about making 7-figure salaries work their asses off - that kind of salary doesn't just arrive at your doorstep). However, assuming you have some ability to engage in long-term planning and somewhat reasonable impulse control, you will not want for anything and will have more than enough money to satisfy your needs and most of your wants.

this has been my experience as well.

with a physician’s income you’ll either have lots of money OR have lots of fancy things. the smart ones find a balance somewhere and live a nice life while still being responsible.
 
I just finished residency in June, so I feel comfortable discussing this. For the record, my gross salary is around $300k - probably a bit more - and I graduated with roughly $140k of education debt.

My wife and I have more than enough to live quite comfortably. No, I'm not living a life of luxury - part of that is an intentional decision to continue "living like a resident" so that I can focus on paying down debt - but my wife and I live a more than comfortable life. We do not have to worry about basic needs and even somewhat extravagant wants. Dropping $10k to go on a trip on a whim isn't a problem. I'm able to fairly easily meet annual limits for tax-deferred retirement contributions and still save an additional 10% each month in my brokerage account. I'm paying $8k/month to pay off student loans and expect to have those paid off in 18 months or less.

Am I swimming in gold? No, I don't think so. Having achieved the precipice that is being an attending, frankly my day-to-day material life hasn't really changed much at all - but that's because I'm trying to be smarter about my money rather than pissing it away on stupid crap. I could go out and buy a $100k car today if I wanted to. I could spend my money on a bunch of other pointless luxuries if I wanted to (and I sort of do, just not to a crazy degree). Instead, though, I'm focusing on paying off my debt so that in 15-20 years I can be in a good position and not have to work if I don't want to.

You will are unlikely become uber rich as a physician - and certainly not by simply becoming a physician (the people you hear about making 7-figure salaries work their asses off - that kind of salary doesn't just arrive at your doorstep). However, assuming you have some ability to engage in long-term planning and somewhat reasonable impulse control, you will not want for anything and will have more than enough money to satisfy your needs and most of your wants.
Sounds solid. How did you come out ~$60k under average debt? What is your specialty?
 
Hi all,

I am a junior doctor based in the UK and was recently comparing salaries of doctors.

American attendings by far get paid the most. I know they leave medical school with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and need to repay it, but after that, are attendings swimming in gold? Or do all the expenses go on things like children's education (which I hear can be up to $50,000 per year in some instances) and malpractice insurance etc?

Looking forward to some replies 🙂
How many hours a week do you work as a junior doctor in the UK? And in what specialty do you work?

Genuinely curious about the lifestyle differences. Seems like the residency hours are very different based on my conversations I've had with people doing residency here who did school in the UK. Wondering if that translates to attending level as well. That whole "working up to 80 hours per week" thing you mention above is perhaps not as adhered to here as closely as you are envisioning, depending on the specialty and program.

That being said, what's getting me through residency isn't the promise of wealth and luxury on the other side. I genuinely like my job and I get a lot of satisfaction from it. I'll be 41 when I finish residency because this is a second career for me and I'll be way above the average debt due to several reasons, so I'll probably be paying it off until I retire unless our PSLF program continues to exist.
 
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Attending life can be tough depending on the specialty, there are some lifestyle fields like derm and allergy which are primarily outpatient but in most fields especially procedure heavy fields the attendings are easily working 60 hours/week (double the time considered to be full time in other jobs). Even the fields that have primarily outpatient clinic they are seeing A LOT of patients a day often in 15 minute time slots non-stop from 8 am to 5pm which can be draining. OB attendings regularly take in-hospital call overnight and then have to go back into clinic next morning regardless of how busy it was overnight. Similar lifestyles with cardiology and surgeons. These fields make you work hard for their salaries. There can be a lot of call and we don't get paid overtime unlike other healthcare professionals like physician assistants or nurses. Most doctors have high volume of patients in addition to a lot of paperwork. If you calculate hourly pay rate of a doctor it would not be much higher than most above average paying jobs.

Salary seems like a lot but those are gross salaries, net salaries after taxes are significantly less. And what you see on internet is not always accurate unless doing private practice which most doctors are not doing anymore (just recently for first time in history in the US there are now more hospital employed doctors than private practice).

Academic hospitals also tend to pay significantly less than the numbers often quoted online. There are cardiologists at brand-name academic institutions that are getting paid $160,000 gross pay, significantly less than the numbers reported online.

We also start our careers much later because after high school we have to do 4 years of pre-med (undergraduate degree) and then 4 additional years of medical school (doctorate degree). US has the highest tuitions in the world ($40,000-$70,000 per year) so 8 years of tuition can easily add up to several hundred thousands of dollars. It is so competitive to get into medical school in the US that students often have to take gap years after undergraduate years where they will do additional research or volunteer to strengthen their resume/CV which can add additional years. Most people also can't afford to pay back their loans while on a resident salary ($50,000-$63,0000 gross salary a year, ends up being closer to $35,000-$45,000 post-taxes) so they'll defer to do income based payments which often results in the loan doubling before it is actually paid off. Residency ranges from 3 years to 8 years, fellowships range from 1-3 years additional depending on specialty, some fields like pathology and radiology need additional fellowships (often 2 additional fellowships after residency) to even get a job. By the time you have a legitimate salary you are already in your mid to late 30s.

There isn't a doctor shortage instead a severe distribution problem with significant number of doctors working in or near big cities so the job market in those areas is often saturated. There are fields such as rad onc where trainees are disgruntled because they worry about finding a decent job as an attending.

As a whole, doctors do not have much political power here in the US, the pharma industry, insurance industry, hospital administration, nursing and mid level lobbying are all significantly stronger. Nursing and physician assistants are gaining a significant amount of power and autonomy which will eventually affect doctor salaries and job markets.

There is also a lot of malpractice in the US so there are a lot consults for every minor medical issue to help spread the liability among other providers leading to higher costs and more defensive medicine.

Doctors also have to routinely taking board exams (cften cost $2,000 each) to demonstrate that they are up to date with current medical knowledge.

In procedure heavy fields, every mistake, bad outcome, and/or patient death gets scrutinized by hospital committees even if it is not your fault.


Doctors in the US work very hard, are held to very high academic standards from undergrad to until their practicing, and sacrifice A LOT of time, effort and money. Overall doctors in the US are comfortable but not necessarily "rich."
 
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Youll prolly get responses of attendings telling you that medicine sucks and to not go into it and insurance is crappy and not what it used to be but they are probably just the old sour ones that are burnt out and negative. Overall being an American physician kicks ass. Amazing job security great pay (pretty much guaranteed $230,000+ per year if you dont care where you practice. Some neurosurgeons/plastic surgeons can make multiple millions per yr. Its a great profession here. Sure youre in debt when you come out but you pay it off

Dude, you're an MS-2
 
As long as you don't blow all of your 200K+ salary in the first year or so after earning it, you'll be fine. Someone I went to school went had to ask her dad for rent money during her first few years out of residency due to barely making it.
He should have laughed at her
 
Thats literally the response i get everytime i talk to a physician. I dont need to be a physician to make a statement about a personal experience that I hear all too frequently. Im also free to voice my opinion as well doesnt mean you have to agree with it. Sounds like youre one of the salty ones buddy
Great you have an opinion...you’re still in preclinical and haven’t even seen the wards yet. You have no greater data than literally anyone else with the internet.
Once you at least experience actual medical life it carries more weight. Don’t chirp about things you don’t know directly or it comes off bad

I know you were a chiro. It isn’t the same and it doesn’t change my response.
 
I just finished residency in June, so I feel comfortable discussing this. For the record, my gross salary is around $300k - probably a bit more - and I graduated with roughly $140k of education debt.

My wife and I have more than enough to live quite comfortably. No, I'm not living a life of luxury - part of that is an intentional decision to continue "living like a resident" so that I can focus on paying down debt - but my wife and I live a more than comfortable life. We do not have to worry about basic needs and even somewhat extravagant wants. Dropping $10k to go on a trip on a whim isn't a problem. I'm able to fairly easily meet annual limits for tax-deferred retirement contributions and still save an additional 10% each month in my brokerage account. I'm paying $8k/month to pay off student loans and expect to have those paid off in 18 months or less.

Am I swimming in gold? No, I don't think so. Having achieved the precipice that is being an attending, frankly my day-to-day material life hasn't really changed much at all - but that's because I'm trying to be smarter about my money rather than pissing it away on stupid crap. I could go out and buy a $100k car today if I wanted to. I could spend my money on a bunch of other pointless luxuries if I wanted to (and I sort of do, just not to a crazy degree). Instead, though, I'm focusing on paying off my debt so that in 15-20 years I can be in a good position and not have to work if I don't want to.

You will are unlikely become uber rich as a physician - and certainly not by simply becoming a physician (the people you hear about making 7-figure salaries work their asses off - that kind of salary doesn't just arrive at your doorstep). However, assuming you have some ability to engage in long-term planning and somewhat reasonable impulse control, you will not want for anything and will have more than enough money to satisfy your needs and most of your wants.
Damn you're an attending now. Time flies.
 
Sounds solid. How did you come out ~$60k under average debt? What is your specialty?

I graduated from college with $7k in debt (had a nearly full scholarship so I had little loans) and had a full scholarship to med school, so my only loans there were living expenses (which were still $30k/year). I’m in psychiatry and work at an academic center.
 
I graduated from college with $7k in debt (had a nearly full scholarship so I had little loans) and had a full scholarship to med school, so my only loans there were living expenses (which were still $30k/year). I’m in psychiatry and work at an academic center.

I wish all academic centers paid 300K.
 
Great you have an opinion...you’re still in preclinical and haven’t even seen the wards yet. You have no greater data than literally anyone else with the internet.
Once you at least experience actual medical life it carries more weight. Don’t chirp about things you don’t know directly or it comes off bad

I know you were a chiro. It isn’t the same and it doesn’t change my response.
Lmao whatever man
 
As long as you don't blow all of your 200K+ salary in the first year or so after earning it, you'll be fine. Someone I went to school went had to ask her dad for rent money during her first few years out of residency due to barely making it.

200k after taxes is not exactly 200k... On top of that you have student loans you will be spending monthly a good portion of your sallary... and housing, and cars... and family...etc... You can live comfortably but not to the level where you can say that you are rich.
 
You're a student. Post on here ten years later pls
Thats literally the response i get everytime i talk to a physician. I dont need to be a physician to make a statement about a personal experience that I hear all too frequently. Im also free to voice my opinion as well doesnt mean you have to agree with it. Sounds like youre one of the salty ones buddy


This is a medical student forum after all. Medical students are free to post their opinions and perceptions here. More experienced people can too.
 
Never understood the whole "come back when you're actually a doctor" thing. We're expected to understand these aspects enough to choose a specialty, but then can't comment on it on SDN? Makes no sense. Any first year med student can tell you that American ROAD physicians are killing it out there compared to most white-collar career alternatives, and don't have to be PGY4+ to be correct about that.

Disclaimer - also a MS3 so anything I say is worthless, apparently.
 
Residents generally get 3-4 weeks per year of paid vacation. From what I've seen, as an attending, its extremely dependent on field, personality and practice set-up. A crazy trauma surgeon may take q2 call and hardly take a vacation in his entire career (this is a real thing). On the flip side, certain hospital based fields where you don't follow patients longitudinally or have to pay an office staff (rads, anesthesia, em) you may be able to take 2-3 months off. Hospitalists often work a 7-on, 7-off schedule. Long days while you are working but considerable number of days off per year.



Stuff like this is probably why I've heard rumors of UK docs moving to greener pastures in Australia. Now, in general, American professionals of all disciplines are better paid than their British counterparts from what I've heard. I know plenty of engineers and computer scientists making equal or greater than the equivalent of 80,000 pounds just 3-5 years out of university. We actually have a 2-year masters degree program called a Physician Assistant that holds a market value of $100,000 or more fresh out. It is a travesty to me that the NHS is paying mid-career and senior consultants at the same level.

While it is true that the absolute number puts you at the equivalent of a PA or CS major/PhD at a decent company here, looking at actual percentile of earners in the UK, £80,000 puts them well into the top 5% of UK earners. In the US, the top 5% of earners makes the average physician salary of $300,000.

I think the fairer comparison to make here would be what ~275k is by percentile in America against what ~100k is by percentile in Britain. I bet we just have higher and lower extremes, and a UK physician making 80-100k is probably still top few percent.

This is the thing. As far as percentile for earners, they're essentially equivalent. While physicians absolute amount is certainly more, they also have to pay a lot more for many things and get less average time off.

Physicians live comfortably here, but they also live comfortably in the UK. In terms of additional fees US physicians pay, debt and associated interest is certainly a big one. Cost of a lot of the best private universities for their kids is actually approaching $60k/yr, and physicians would not be eligible for need-based financial aid and often at that level merit-based doesn't exist. Malpractice insurance is another cost, but for many its covered by their employer, although employers will pay closer to the median or slightly below it compared to PP. Vacation/PTO time is less, even if you're getting 8 wks (I would guess that most physicians are in the 6 wks/yr range here). This completely ignores things like parental leave that are guaranteed in the UK. To give some perspective here, the US guarantees 12 wks of unpaid leave for the mother only and most good companies may offer 6-8 wks of paid leave. In the UK, the parents (either) get to share 50 wks of leave total and 37 of those wks are paid leave.

Healthcare costs are pretty high here. Unlike a lot of people in the US that might go bankrupt in the setting of a major illness, physicians likely won't. An emergency with my daughter for example cost us ~$4k last year for a day's worth of medical care despite having very good insurance and my wife probably spent multiple hours on the phone with the insurance company and healthcare system to have the bills billed correctly and covered as they should be. The $4k was manageable, even as a resident, albeit it meant much less spending for a period of about 6 mos. By the way, we've also gotten new bills for that encounter as recently as 8 mos later.

Basically, I think all this adds up to physicians in the US making about as much as or slightly more than physicians in the UK. No, it is nowhere close to "swimming in gold" for most (although it might be for the top earners), but it is comfortable enough not to have to worry about things most Americans worry about, but to be fair many of those things are things many in the UK don't worry about.
 
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