is columbia really that good?

[bcDDS]

Ok, I can't believe that I've read every single post on this thread, but it's like a train wreck happening before you...a bit disturbing to watch, but nevertheless, your eyes remain glued to it. Since I've gone through the whole Columbia experience and can comment on life during school and after graduation, here it is..
You can't fit everything into four years of dental school, no matter where you choose to attend. It's just way too much information. Some schools are 'great' clinically, while others seem to 'suck'. At least that's what most people on these boards seem to argue. Columbia is super intense the first two years, b/c the biomedical curriculum demands it. That's always been Columbia's emphasis. That leaves a bit less time and energy spent doing 200+ typodont class 2 preps, but the hours spent in the preclinic are still pretty demanding.
When you do get to the clinic during the 3rd year, what I can honestly say is that what you learn is really up to you. Columbia's clinical requirements probably aren't as stiff as other schools, but you really do get as much out of the experience as you put in. Realistically, I didn't do that much in terms of clinical work by the time I graduated, but the resources are definitely there. Columbia gave me a really solid foundation in which to build on, and my learning curve took off during my year in GPR. Although the quality of GPR programs vary drastically, I think everybody can benefit a great deal by doing a GPR. Like I said before, you can't fit nearly enough into 4 years of a dental education. That fifth year wouldn't be wasted on anybody, no matter how prepared they felt coming out of school. . Our #1 student (no class rank, but everybody knew he was the top dog - NBDE I and II 98), a true dental prodigy had a father with a really high end midtown manhattan practice. He still did a year of GPR before joining the practice. People from Columbia don't do a year of GPR because they HAVE to. They do it because they believe in it. So yes, you can come out of Columbia and be a proficient GP.
As far as the specialty topic goes, some things really need to be clarified. As far as my graduating class is concerned, about %40 went straight into specialty. We had 8 ortho, 10+ OMS, and the rest I don't remember. Some didn't match, some didn't even apply, some didn't know what they wanted to do, but after a year of GPR the numbers that went on to specialize were far greater than that. From what I can estimate, roughly 60-75% of my class ended up specializing. I'm not exaggerating. Pretty much everybody that decided to apply got what they wanted, myself included. Maybe my class is an exception, but I highly doubt it varies that much from year to year. So for those that want to say it makes LITTLE difference on where you go to dental school, think again. As has been mentioned before, you can go to any school and still specialize, but I have say that certain schools give you an edge when applying to PG programs. Schools like Harvard, Columbia, UConn, UCLA don't have class rank, so maybe that's the edge. Who knows? But it definitely makes a difference.
So anybody that wants to challenge me on my comments can do so, but it'll probably fall upon deaf ears because the facts I've stated aren't speculation. Those are my personal experiences. Peace....

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[Woodsy]

beautiful....bcDDS, I hate you and love you at the same time.

I hate you because now you're making me gear towards Columbia over U of T even though I haven't fully decided.

I love you because you're telling me how good Columbia is.

Of course that is platonic love...like for one's comrade and brother..seeing how I may be going to Columbia...no funny "backdoor" shenanigans here.

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

Ok, I can't believe that I've read every single post on this thread, but it's like a train wreck happening before you...a bit disturbing to watch, but nevertheless, your eyes remain glued to it. Since I've gone through the whole Columbia experience and can comment on life during school and after graduation, here it is..
You can't fit everything into four years of dental school, no matter where you choose to attend. It's just way too much information. Some schools are 'great' clinically, while others seem to 'suck'. At least that's what most people on these boards seem to argue. Columbia is super intense the first two years, b/c the biomedical curriculum demands it. That's always been Columbia's emphasis. That leaves a bit less time and energy spent doing 200+ typodont class 2 preps, but the hours spent in the preclinic are still pretty demanding.
When you do get to the clinic during the 3rd year, what I can honestly say is that what you learn is really up to you. Columbia's clinical requirements probably aren't as stiff as other schools, but you really do get as much out of the experience as you put in. Realistically, I didn't do that much in terms of clinical work by the time I graduated, but the resources are definitely there. Columbia gave me a really solid foundation in which to build on, and my learning curve took off during my year in GPR. Although the quality of GPR programs vary drastically, I think everybody can benefit a great deal by doing a GPR. Like I said before, you can't fit nearly enough into 4 years of a dental education. That fifth year wouldn't be wasted on anybody, no matter how prepared they felt coming out of school. . Our #1 student (no class rank, but everybody knew he was the top dog - NBDE I and II 98), a true dental prodigy had a father with a really high end midtown manhattan practice. He still did a year of GPR before joining the practice. People from Columbia don't do a year of GPR because they HAVE to. They do it because they believe in it. So yes, you can come out of Columbia and be a proficient GP.
As far as the specialty topic goes, some things really need to be clarified. As far as my graduating class is concerned, about %40 went straight into specialty. We had 8 ortho, 10+ OMS, and the rest I don't remember. Some didn't match, some didn't even apply, some didn't know what they wanted to do, but after a year of GPR the numbers that went on to specialize were far greater than that. From what I can estimate, roughly 60-75% of my class ended up specializing. I'm not exaggerating. Pretty much everybody that decided to apply got what they wanted, myself included. Maybe my class is an exception, but I highly doubt it varies that much from year to year. So for those that want to say it makes LITTLE difference on where you go to dental school, think again. As has been mentioned before, you can go to any school and still specialize, but I have say that certain schools give you an edge when applying to PG programs. Schools like Harvard, Columbia, UConn, UCLA don't have class rank, so maybe that's the edge. Who knows? But it definitely makes a difference.
So anybody that wants to challenge me on my comments can do so, but it'll probably fall upon deaf ears because the facts I've stated aren't speculation. Those are my personal experiences. Peace....

Great post, and I hate to bring up again, but no Columbian has addressed my fact:

Why does the ADA claim that 70% of students go into private practice, yet only 2% (due to family connections) of Columbians last year went into private practice and 35% specialized, leaving 63% to do something else. Why didnt this 63% do what the high majority of dental graduates in the US do after graduation.....go into private practice?

ANd I never stated this, but UBTom has said that once you are in the GPR and then applying for a specialty, the school you came from plays no role anymore. So if this is true, although 60% of your class ended up specializing after their GPR, this is nothing unique to Columbia because anyone could do it after doing a GPR.

Sorry, but for bringing up again, but I thought those were fair rebuttals and points that I raised earlier that always seem to be left out.

 

[bcDDS]

Great post, and I hate to bring up again, but no Columbian has addressed my fact:

Why does the ADA claim that 70% of students go into private practice, yet only 2% (due to family connections) of Columbians last year went into private practice and 35% specialized, leaving 63% to do something else. Why didnt this 63% do what the high majority of dental graduates in the US do after graduation.....go into private practice?

ANd I never stated this, but UBTom has said that once you are in the GPR and then applying for a specialty, the school you came from plays no role anymore. So if this is true, although 60% of your class ended up specializing after their GPR, this is nothing unique to Columbia because anyone could do it after doing a GPR.

Sorry, but for bringing up again, but I thought those were fair rebuttals and points that I raised earlier that always seem to be left out.

Avin,
The '63%' that you are referring to went on and did a GPR. The few that I know of that went straight into practice were either advanced standing with a dental degree from another international school, or a bit obsessed with getting out there and making $$. Of the 4 that I recall that had 'family connections', 2 did a GPR, and 2 went on to 3 year prostho programs to become 'super gps', prior to joining their dad's restorative practices. Very few Columbia grads go straight into practice b/c they WANT to do a GPR. GPR is considered post grad education, but I'm not lumping those into the specialization category. And as far as the belief that the school you come from makes no difference in specialty acceptances once you do a GPR, I don't know where that statement came from. That seems more like speculation than anything. Maybe it doesn't, maybe it does, but since when can anybody state one way or the other with any degree of certainty? Since you like statistics, I just decided to give you my unofficial and unpublished set. I'm not going to try to 'win' any arguments here, but when I look at my class and see that everybody that wanted to specialize got the chance, that seems like pretty compelling evidence that Columbia is a pretty solid choice if you want to specialize and that it does make a substantial difference.
One more thing. A good high school friend of mine graduated from Temple a few years back. He got great clinical exposure, but still decided to do a GPR. He feels it was the best decision he ever made. Learned things that would have otherwise taken years and years to achieve. He's really prospering now in private practice. So my point remains that those that choose to go straight into private practice make it a personal decision, as do those that choose a to pursue a GPR.

...and Woodsy...If you have a chance to pay relatively nothing to attend dental school, U of T might be a pretty good choice. Columbia may help you with your specialty aspirations, but if you have enough confidence in your abilities to rank high in your class, the difference in tuition might not be worth it. Again, this is a personal decision you'll have to make, but if it were me, I might just go to U of T and study my ass off. No regrets about Columbia, but the difference in tuition is like night and day. If and when you do decide to specialize, you may have to add a couple more years of tuition on top of your undergrad dental. Just some food for thought. Hope this helps.

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

I never once stated that doing a GPR is a waste of time....but as a predent, Im still shocked on how ALL Columbia students seem to do the GPR route, whereas 70% of other grads do not. This just seems strange to me. There must be a reason of why Columbia grads WANT to do a GPR whereas other grads do not. Do Columbia grads know some sort of secret that 70% of other grads do not? Do you honestly think that those 63% who WANTED to do a GPR were actually capable of entering private practice? Please be honest.

ANd Im glad that there is a Columbia student that admitted that all of Columbia grads who didnt match went into a GPR.....this is what Ive been saying all along, yet people seemed to think my statements were false.

So in one sense, Columbia should be thought of as a 5 year program then. Doesnt mean Columbia grads are worse dentists, just would take them an extra year.....this has been my point since Post #1.

I do thank you bcDDS for your honest rebuttals though.

 

[SillyRabbit]

Just wanted to say that many dentists in Dentaltown looking back say that one of the things they would have done differently would be to do a residency.

(this thread was THIS close to dying out though)

 

[busdriver]

I never once stated that doing a GPR is a waste of time.....

you goto Columbia to become a specialist or waste a year through a GPR......

i'm not taking sides but i had to point this out cuz i thought the second quote was your main point for a long time...

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

i'm not taking sides but i had to point this out cuz i thought the second quote was your main point for a long time...

HAHAHHA.....nice one.....but if you read later on, I did clarify that I did not mean that a GPR is a waste because one doesnt learn anything....I only said it was a waste to some, because a graduate in a clinically orientated school most likely wont go into a GPR, as statistics show. THus, a GPR would be a waste of a year if you had a choice to go into a clinical school and if you wanted to be a GP rather than a school lacking clinical education.......as freddy once said, its only an extra year.....not a big deal.....and its your choice, just wanted to point out that it WILL be an extra year......thats all....blah blah blah blah......I hate repeating myself...this thread is closed

 

[freedyx3]

HAHAHHA.....nice one.....but if you read later on, I did clarify that I did not mean that a GPR is a waste because one doesnt learn anything....I only said it was a waste to some, because a graduate in a clinically orientated school most likely wont go into a GPR, as statistics show. THus, a GPR would be a waste of a year if you had a choice to go into a clinical school and if you wanted to be a GP rather than a school lacking clinical education.......as freddy once said, its only an extra year.....not a big deal.....and its your choice, just wanted to point out that it WILL be an extra year......thats all....blah blah blah blah......I hate repeating myself...this thread is closed

Haha Avin,

Dude give it up man, you're just making yourself look worse and worse. Your posts are FULL of contradictions as busdriver has already pointed out. I just look at that and laughed my ass off. Good work busdriver.

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

Haha Avin,

Dude give it up man, you're just making yourself look worse and worse. Your posts are FULL of contradictions as busdriver has already pointed out. I just look at that and laughed my ass off. Good work busdriver.

Its strange to get this advice from someone whose incompetence has been displayed quite well during this thread, but thanks for the advice Freddy.....although I never contradicted myself (only a poor choice of words which got misinterpreted), Ill just let people read the 10 pages of posts on this thread, and they can see whether Im full of contradictions or not and form their own opinion.....cheers.

 

[freedyx3]

Its strange to get this advice from someone whose incompetence has been displayed quite well during this thread, but thanks for the advice Freddy.....although I never contradicted myself (only a poor choice of words which got misinterpreted), Ill just let people read the 10 pages of posts on this thread, and they can see whether Im full of contradictions or not and form their own opinion.....cheers.

Nice Avin, call me incompetent, you know you should have used ******* instead, it sounds alittle better.

 

[aileen]

Is it true that NERB will demand one year of residency in near future?

 

[freedyx3]

OOK so its agreed then, goto Temple if your goal is to specialize and goto Columbia if your goal is to do GP......waaaait a sec or was it the other way around.

Seriously though, I think most dental student should do a year of GPR nomatter where you went to school. 4 years is just not enough time to learn all the biomed fundamentals and get enough practice in all the different procedures. Some schools prefer to spend alittle less time in the biomed fundamentals and alittle more time in practice, and vice versa for other schools. You may think one extra year is pontless, but I think it will give you a running start and will more than pay for itself once you get into practice in terms of production.

 

[gryffindor]

Is it true that NERB will demand one year of residency in near future?

NERB is just an organization that administers a test. They have nothing to do with whether or not you get a license. Neither does your dental school have anything to do with whether or not you get a license to practice dentistry; they are only involved in awarding the dental degree. The individual states decide which test you have to pass and which forms you have to fill out before you can get a license. That said, I already posted the following paragraph earlier in this thread and I think it answers your question.

"...many of my clinically talented and confident classmates are signing up for a GPR b/c they do not want to put up with taking the NERB examination (a horrendous, biased, subjective, expensive exam). New York is now waiving the NERB exam and will grant a NY license to any student in the USA in the classes of 2004 & 2005 & 2006 if the student completes an ADA accredited GPR/AEGD. Starting with the class of 2007, don't even bother coming to New York state to practice unless you do a GPR/AEGD b/c New York will not give you a license unless you do a minimum of 1 year post-grad - this applies to ALL graduates of all USA/Canadian dental schools who want to practice in NY."

So yes, New York is "demanding" (your word, not mine) a year of GPR before giving a license to practice here, starting with the class of 2007 and all subsequent classes. The results of the NERB exam will be worthless if you want to practice in New York unless you have completed a GPR/AEGD come Jan. 1, 2007.

 

[Jack Worthing]

OOoohh.. no wonder why I hear about so many dental students going into GPR right after dental school - and only one or two going into business. I had thought it was a somehow very widespread desire for advanced education.

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

So NY is demanding students to take 5 years of dental school? Why arent other states doing this? Are you 100% positive that NY doesnt give someone the choice to either pass the NERB or do a GPR to get a license? If not, I dont know if this is wise, because with so many GPR's in the country, I can be positive that they are not even, and some GPRs are probably terrible compared to others. I really think all dentists should be tested to ensure their skills are adequate before treating their own patients. WOuldnt you guys agree?

For the other states part of NERB, you just need to pass the exam to get a license, and the NERB is a clinical test, so if you plan to go right into practice, that is why clinical exposure is key. For example, at Tufts in 2003, 86% of students passed the NERB on their first try, and in 2004, 84% passed on their first try. Seems like Tufts students are having no problems with the NERB. So although griffin claims that the NERB is "a horrendous, biased, subjective, expensive exam", it really shows you how far a good clinical education will take you.

 

[aileen]

 

[gryffindor]

So NY is demanding students to take 5 years of dental school? Why arent other states doing this? Are you 100% positive that NY doesnt give someone the choice to either pass the NERB or do a GPR to get a license? If not, I dont know if this is wise, because with so many GPR's in the country, I can be positive that they are not even, and some GPRs are probably terrible compared to others. I really think all dentists should be tested to ensure their skills are adequate before treating their own patients. WOuldnt you guys agree?

Other states are doing this. This law is called "PGY-1" for short. It's already in place in Minnesota, and Connecticut is currently working out the legislation for it as we speak. All GPR/AEGDs are not even, but one this is certain in a GPR - you will get clinical experience regardless of where you will go. Some places may be more trauma intense, some maybe more esthetic based, but there will be clinical dentistry. Yes, I am 100% certain the option of NERB or GPR will not be available after January 1, 2007. You will have to do a GPR if you want to practice in NY state after January 1, 2007. Read this statement from the ADA
PGY-1 Option

For the other states part of NERB, you just need to pass the exam to get a license, and the NERB is a clinical test, so if you plan to go right into practice, that is why clinical exposure is key. For example, at Tufts in 2003, 86% of students passed the NERB on their first try, and in 2004, 84% passed on their first try. Seems like Tufts students are having no problems with the NERB. So although griffin claims that the NERB is "a horrendous, biased, subjective, expensive exam", it really shows you how far a good clinical education will take you.

This paragraph is wrong on so many levels. I'll overlook it b/c you're a pre-dent and seriously don't know any better. Clinical exposure has NOTHING to do with passing the NERB. That's the problem with the exam and why NY is smart and doing away with it. Tell us how wonderful and fair you think the NERB is in May 2008 when you are looking for the perfect perio patient with the right number of teeth and surfaces of calculus and pocket depths in the right places who will show up so you don't fail the exam. The NERB pass rate has nothing to do with the quality of the school. The other upperclassmen and practicing dentists here will back me up on this one.

avingupta, quit while you're ahead. Join ASDA so you get a clue before you go spouting out NERB passing rates trying to show why Tufts & Temple are excellent clinical schools and Columbia may or may not be.

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

Other states are doing this. This law is called "PGY-1" for short. It's already in place in Minnesota, and Connecticut is currently working out the legislation for it as we speak. All GPR/AEGDs are not even, but one this is certain in a GPR - you will get clinical experience regardless of where you will go. Some places may be more trauma intense, some maybe more esthetic based, but there will be clinical dentistry. Yes, I am 100% certain the option of NERB or GPR will not be available after January 1, 2007. You will have to do a GPR if you want to practice in NY state after January 1, 2007. Read this statement from the ADA
PGY-1 Option

In that link that you posted, it says nothing about completely doing away with the NERB.....it only states that one can either do the NERB or a GPR to get licensed. How are you 100% sure that the NERB will be not be an option for the Class of 2007? This is the first Ive heard of this. Enlighten me oh wise 4th year dental student.

This paragraph is wrong on so many levels. I'll overlook it b/c you're a pre-dent and seriously don't know any better. Clinical exposure has NOTHING to do with passing the NERB. That's the problem with the exam and why NY is smart and doing away with it. Tell us how wonderful and fair you think the NERB is in May 2008 when you are looking for the perfect perio patient with the right number of teeth and surfaces of calculus and pocket depths in the right places who will show up so you don't fail the exam. The NERB pass rate has nothing to do with the quality of the school. The other upperclassmen and practicing dentists here will back me up on this one.

avingupta, quit while you're ahead. Join ASDA so you get a clue before you go spouting out NERB passing rates trying to show why Tufts & Temple are excellent clinical schools and Columbia may or may not be.

I recall from reading on DentalTown that examinations like the NERB are going to incorporate mannequins throughout the whole test, to avoid the need to search for the "perfect" patients for the restorative or periodontal clinical examinations. At Temple (I dont know about Tufts or NYU), its large patient pool enables students to easily have these "perfect" patients and with the NERB administered right at the school, makes it extremely easier (dont have to fly patients in, etc.)......this is perhaps unfair, which is why the use of mannequins would be useful for all graduates, but I still dont understand how the NERB is not a clinical exam. According to the NERB manual (http://www.nerb.org/pdf/Dental Manual 2004 with index.pdf):

The NERB Clinical Examinations in Dentistry consists of four individual, skill-specific, clinical examinations: two simulated patient clinical examinations and two clinical examinations performed on patients. The two simulated patient clinical examinations are the computer-based Dental Simulated Clinical Examination (DSCE) and the Simulated Patient Treatment (Manikin)
Clinical Examination (SPTCE). The two clinical examinations performed on patients are the Restorative Clinical Examination and the Periodontal Clinical Examination. Candidates taking the clinical examinations in Dentistry administered by the NERB do so voluntarily and agree to accept the provisions and to follow the rules established by the NERB for the examinations as detailed in this manual.

Seems like the word "clinical" is mentioned quite a bit in the above statement, so PLEASE explain to me how the NERB is not a clinical exam cause Im nothing but a stupid predent.

 

[gryffindor]

Here is the website that deals with what exactly I'm talking about. It is the website for the NY State Education Department, the people in Albany who regulate this PGY-1 business. Residency Option Pathway for Licensure

The date listed on the website is December 31, 2005. Although the rest of the document doesn't say it, what is happening after December 31, 2005 is that a year of GPR/AEGD or successful completion of specialty will be mandatory before being issued a NY state license. I don't have a website that shows this, but this is what we have been told at our school. Also, you can e-mail Mr. Roy Lasky, Executive Director of the New York State Dental Association and he will tell you why he backs this move 100% and what the legislation will be starting with Jan. 1, 2006.

Roy Lasky Contact Info

Also, read this on PGY-1, an article from New York when PGY-1 was first introduced. NYSDA-initiated PGY1 Legislation Becomes Law


The reason I said to "Join ASDA, get a clue" is b/c our ASDA leaders are in communication with the people involved in this legislation (like Mr. Lasky) and the date has now been changed to December 31, 2006. ASDA is fighting to try and grandfather in the classes of 2006 & 2007 from having an option of residency or NERB to get licensed in New York. ASDA still maintains that dental students should have the option, but New York believes that PGY-1 is the way to go and to do away with taking the NERB.

I have heard bits about the NERB switching to mannequin, but those discussions started after I bowed out of the national ASDA picture so I don't know where it stands right now.

The NERB is more complicated than you think. Some schools have now implemented the option where you take different sections of the NERB throughout your senior year, so you can remediate any section you fail either during senior year or soon after. Some schools are still doing it the traditional way, where you take the entire exam over a 2 day period and then wait a few weeks after graduation to find out if you passed or not. I've heard that pass rates are now higher with the broken-up way of taking the exam.

It is "clinical" in that you do irreversible procedures on your patients to try and demonstrate your "competence." It is subjective b/c they can fail you for whatever they want and you won't know why. Several clinical superstars (like these people were REALLY REALLY good clinicians and kicked butt in academics) from our school have failed in the past for reasons unknown, the least of which is their clinical incompetency. How does doing a two-surface amalgam under very artificial conditions on a morning in May show your clinical competence? You can fail the exam b/c you forgot to put your napkin "absorbent side down." Also, even with the best patient pool, you still fail your exam if your patient doesn't show - Temple University or not, no excuses allowed on this one. Many people pay their patients to ensure they'll come - the going rates I've heard are around $50 in Buffalo upto hundreds of dollars at other east coast schools. How about doing your typodont (mannequin) procedures and then shipping the typodonts hundreds of miles to Washington DC where they are graded weeks after you do the excercise? During this time, the material properties shift and you can fail b/c what you did was perfect in May, but broke b/c they don't grade it till the sweltering heat of Washington DC in June. Sound fair? I don't think so.

...cause Im nothing but a stupid predent

You said it. There is a high probability many of the dental students and practitioners on this thread may tend to agree.

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

Although you still havent shown any proof that this legislation has passed, I still dont understand how this is the correct direction to take. I can completely see how the ASDA is opposed to this. From many 4th year students at Temple and Tufts that I have talked to, they all say that they are confident that they can go into practice now with no problems....to force them to take a GPR does not make sense. And the fact that 70% of dental students go right into private practice indicates that (a) they've passed a test like the NERB (b) they are clinically confident to enter private practice.

Of course I agree with you that perhaps the testing is not fair, but to totally do away with it is not the answer. First, switching fully to mannequins would be a first step in fixing the problems and then like you said, breaking up the exam is proving better results.

Like the DAT, I believe a mandatory test should be required for all dental graduates that tests them on their clinical skills. We all know that there are worthless liberal arts colleges out there where you breathe and get 4.0, whereas at schools like UCLA a 4.0 is an achievement of a lot of hard work. However, writing the DAT puts everyone on the same playing field. Same thing with a GPR....with so many more of them than dental student participants, some GPRs would be much more intensive than others, and without a test putting everyone on an equal playing field, how can one be sure that they are clinically competent.

What if a student who graduated from a school, who didnt prioritize clinical education, and then this student went into a GPR which was lesser known and gave him only marginal clinical experience.....Should this person be automatically licensed?? Where is the regulation in this?

To make students do a 4 year bachelors degree, then 5 years more of dental education seems a bit much, especially when in every other region in the world such as Europe, India, Mexico, etc, they go into dentistry right after high school and their programs are 5-6 years. European dentists seem competent to me.

You said it. There is a high probability many of the dental students and practitioners on this thread may tend to agree.

Cheers Griffin. You are so wise. We all know that once someone claims they are a dental student, they must know all. Doggie really proved that one. As a 2nd year Columbia student, he didnt even know what an associateship was.

-Avin Gupta
Stupid Pre-Dental Student

 

[Doggie]

Cheers Griffin. You are so wise. We all know that once someone claims they are a dental student, they must know all. Doggie really proved that one. As a 2nd year Columbia student, he didnt even know what an associateship was.

hahaha........yes yes.....apparently, i dont know what an associateship is. I also didnt know that columbia makes their students take a 5th year in the form of a GPR. I also dont know that a predent like yourself is more wise than a 2nd year like myself. I also dont know that I somehow became a 2nd year dental student again.

As a predent, you've proved that you are the know-it-all. I'm very glad temple has you as a student. They will surely prosper from a very knowledgeable student such as yourself.......eh?

Word of advice: quit while you are ahead.......you really arent representing your future dental school too well.......and frankly, you are making all dentist look like idiots.

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

I also dont know that I somehow became a 2nd year dental student again.

Geez...after your comment about associateships on a previous page of this thread, I became to wonder the same thing.

 

[gryffindor]

The legislation allowing substitution of an accredited residency in place of taking the NERB is already in place. The legislation making a residency mandatory after Jan. 1, 2007 is still in the works. There may not be an internet source to "prove" my point. Why don't you e-mail Mr. Lasky and get the facts straight from the source? For me, it doesn't matter what New York does b/c I am taking the NERB and doing a GPR and completing both way before 2006, so I really don't care which way New York goes afterwards.

What if a student who graduated from a school, who didnt prioritize clinical education, and then this student went into a GPR which was lesser known and gave him only marginal clinical experience.....Should this person be automatically licensed?? Where is the regulation in this?

All schools must be accredited by CODA in order to be operating. That is the regulation. Also, there are no "lesser" known GPRs where you get "marginal clinical experience." They ALL give you clinical experience. A GPR is a job where they pay you and the hospital gets lots of $$$$$ for having you there. So they will work you like a dog and get every penny's worth of dentistry out of you. There is no way you can sign up for a GPR and walk away without more experience than when you started.

The NERB testing agency is not a "regulatory" agency. They offer an exam that tests clinical competence on placing 1 ideal amalgam, 1 resin, and cleaning 6 teeth on real patients. Then you do a bridge and endo on a mannequin - these mannequin excercises (especially the endo) are so far removed from what you would do clinically on a real patient. Any denal student can probably pass the NERB after second year; you will have the basic skills you need after finishing all your pre-clinical operative, fixed, endo. You can't compare the NERB to the DAT like in your analogy. A student from a school that doesn't prioritize clinical education can pass the NERB and get a license; it's not a difficult exam. The problem with passing the NERB is the subjectivity of it, not the actual dentistry part.

The NERB tests nothing on clinical competence on removable prosthodontics (dentures), oral surgery, pediatric dentistry, or orthodontics. NOTHING. You can pass the NERB knowing nothing about 4 major clinical disciplines in dentistry. Even if ortho and pedo are mainly referral disciplines, there isn't a GPR in the USA where you can get away without making dentures or pulling teeth. But you could potentially get away without doing those things in dental school (I used to pawn off pulling teeth to everyone else and no one ever stopped me) and still get a license.

The NERB will also not test whether you know how to place a foundation (core-buildup) restoration, if you know how to manage a medically compromised patient (b/c you screen the medically complicated ones out and only use the healthy ones for the exam), if you can do other aspects of operative and fixed, perio surgery, implants, and I can go on with this. So its results are meaningless. Everyone knows this; the NERB is basically another piece of red tape to go through before being allowed to practice. Go ask the practicing dentists on dentaltown and they will all tell you what a worthless exam the NERB is.

Cheers Griffin. You are so wise. We all know that once someone claims they are a dental student, they must know all.

Yes, that's how it works. Dental students know more about dentistry than pre-dents. Fourth year dental students tend to know more about their clinical skills and level of competence and post-grad objectives than pre-dents speculating on going straight to practice or specializing without ever setting foot in a dental school.

 

[gryffindor]

One other thing....

The only opinion I am offering is that the NERB is a worthless exam. Your dental training is the responsibility of the school, not the NERB testing agency. I am not saying you should have to do a GPR. That is a decision that the graduate must make.

The point of New York heading in the direction of doing a GPR is not because they believe there are incompetent practitioners getting licensed each year. They are looking more at the fact that the NERB is a potentially unethical exam. If you "fail" - who's supposed to take care of the patient after your exam with the "failing" restoration in their mouth and make it clinically acceptable? It's not going to be you b/c you've already graduated and left dental school. And it's not the dental school b/c even if the school offers the exam at its facilities, the school takes no responsibility for the exam or the patients who are treated during the exam.

Also, there are a lot of people at the ADA and especially ASDA pushing for more freedom of movement of dentists after graduation. In medicine, when you pass USMLE III and do a residency, you can practice in anywhere in the USA. Right now, there is severe restriction on freedom of movement in dentistry. Many states are starting to recognize each others exams, but not everyone. New York is hoping that by moving in the PGY-1 direction, maybe other states will take notice and make it easier for dentists to move around the country. If I have to move to Texas or California or Oregon next month for some reason, I have to take yet another exam even though I will be licensed in New York (when I pass the NERB...) Is a class II amalgam restoration really that different between the East coast versus the West coast? Majority of dentists would say no, hence the big debate on clinical exams for licensure.

I'll say it again, join ASDA, get a clue.

 

[shabu2]

I am a student who goes to Columbia, and I love it there. For you predents who think you know all about Dentistry, wait til you do your first class II on a maxillary molar! You might rethink your career options. Although people say that our pre clinical experience is weak, it is the most you make of it. At the best clinical schools in the nation, you will have the bottom 20% struggle through dental school just the same as our beloved ivy league school. At times our biomedical studies suck, but not everyone can say that they attended classes lectured by nobel laureates in one of the world's finest medical schools. I came here for the whole learning experience in one of the most interesting cities in the nation. Enough of this Columbia bashing, and think of your arduous upcoming year. No matter what school you attend, you will see no daylight for two years, and focus on being the best dentist for your future patients. Good luck Temple predents, and Columbians - Primus Inter Pares!

SDOS 2007

 

[KrebsPsycho]

Hey guys,

You may call me stupid or whatever, but I never knew Columbia is an Ivy League school nor where it is until I found this SDN. My dentist friend doesn't know it, either. And many people don't. How you say this or that school is well known, you base on what? When talking about Ivy League, Harvard or Yale rule. Harvard is well known for its law, business, and medical programs and for graduating many "well-known" politicians (good and bad ones). But Columbia...not so sure. But who cares, right? Like someone here already said, you go where you're happiest. Stop this "Avin vs Columbians" thing. Btw, great posts, UBTom

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

I am a student who goes to Columbia, and I love it there. For you predents who think you know all about Dentistry, wait til you do your first class II on a maxillary molar! You might rethink your career options. Although people say that our pre clinical experience is weak, it is the most you make of it. At the best clinical schools in the nation, you will have the bottom 20% struggle through dental school just the same as our beloved ivy league school. At times our biomedical studies suck, but not everyone can say that they attended classes lectured by nobel laureates in one of the world's finest medical schools. I came here for the whole learning experience in one of the most interesting cities in the nation. Enough of this Columbia bashing, and think of your arduous upcoming year. No matter what school you attend, you will see no daylight for two years, and focus on being the best dentist for your future patients. Good luck Temple predents, and Columbians - Primus Inter Pares!

Bah...I went to the University of Toronto and was taught by high profile professors and Nobel laureates as well, and if you think about it, its actually a disadvantage, because either (a) they are so smart in only their field of expertise, yet cannot teach or (b) they are so focused on their research, that they dont care for their students, and only teach as part of their contract with the university....its really not a big deal unless you go into research with them, but unless you're Will Hunting, thats not gonna happen...

 

[aileen]

I don't know who to believe. Should I believe someone who's attending Columbia or the one who went to University of Toronto when we're talking about Columbia.

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

I don't know who to believe. Should I believe someone who's attending Columbia or the one who went to University of Toronto when we're talking about Columbia.

Huh? That doesnt make sense? Why are all of my comments always taken out of context? When was I referring to specifically Columbia? I was referring to the guy claiming that its good to be taught by nobel prize winners, and Im just rebutting it....it was just a general comment not targeted against a specific university....geez, just relax aileen and instead of bashing me go and learn more about that Part II exam!

 

[aileen]

Did you read the title of the thread before you posted?

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

Did you read the title of the thread before you posted?

Yah, but I was still referring to Nobel Prize teachers in general...I never knew it was against the law to not talk about Columbia for one post on a Columbia thread.....OOOOPS!

 

[aileen]

I'm not gonna start arguing with you, avin. I don't have any time to waste since I have to prepare for that part 2.

 

[freedyx3]

I'm not gonna start arguing with you, avin. I don't have any time to waste since I have to prepare for that part 2.

He's from temple....wait a sec who else was from temple.....oh yeah avingupta

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

He's from temple....wait a sec who else was from temple.....oh yeah avingupta

Wow Freddy, you're such a genius! What gave it away? The fact that I kept the same signature, location and phrase under my avatar?? Or was it when I told everyone that avingupta is now Dr.BadVibes?

 

[freedyx3]

Wow Freddy, you're such a genius! What gave it away? The fact that I kept the same signature, location and phrase under my avatar?? Or was it when I told everyone that avingupta is now Dr.BadVibes?

Yay I'm a genius!

 

[shabu2]

Bah...I went to the University of Toronto and was taught by high profile professors and Nobel laureates as well, and if you think about it, its actually a disadvantage, because either (a) they are so smart in only their field of expertise, yet cannot teach or (b) they are so focused on their research, that they dont care for their students, and only teach as part of their contract with the university....its really not a big deal unless you go into research with them, but unless you're Will Hunting, thats not gonna happen...

I guess you would of had to come to Columbia to know that the Nobel Laureates here Can teach and are very accessible, but that wasn't my point. I was trying to give a small picture to those who had decided on Columbia as their educational choice for the next four years, and I never was bashing on any other schools, but if you want to make yourself feel better go right ahead. There are many proud Columbians, and there will be many more, so give it a rest Dr. B! Go find a thread with people excited about attending Temple and let eveyone else be. Cool?

 

[Halitosis]

i suggest going through this thread for ppl accepted @ columbia. very informative and entertaining!

 

[MrBenny]

Gone thru it already. It is mainly Dr. BadVibes taking on the entire Columbia SDN population. Some information, but alot of bashing. Filter out what you can.
Go to the Columbia 2008 thread. that might have more relevant info for those who have recently gotten admitted, such as housing, financial aid, etc.

 

[v&andy_yankee]

^^^i got to page 5 until i got too bored reading the thread. we should retitle it as "BadVibe's Monologue."

i wonder why that dude is so bitter an angry over columbia? even today, and he's already well into his first year at temple--isn't it about time to move on?

 

[MrBenny]

Post #174 (?), Page 9, a post by nycdds. most objective assessment of Columbia's program. read that. everything else is just verbal brawling.

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

^^^i got to page 5 until i got too bored reading the thread. we should retitle it as "BadVibe's Monologue."

i wonder why that dude is so bitter an angry over columbia? even today, and he's already well into his first year at temple--isn't it about time to move on?

Oh the memories!

Im not bitter towards Columbia for anything....I just dont appreciate how schools like Columbia mislead their students during the interview. At my interview there, I heard so much BS, that even the bigwig Spin doctors in Washington couldnt match.

I still believe everything I wrote in this thread. People can read it and get out of it what they want.

 

[Profchaos]

Oh the memories!

Im not bitter towards Columbia for anything....I just dont appreciate how schools like Columbia mislead their students during the interview. At my interview there, I heard so much BS, that even the bigwig Spin doctors in Washington couldnt match.

I still believe everything I wrote in this thread. People can read it and get out of it what they want.

Columbia, a big brand name. Just like Harvard. Other than that, I don't know, bt I don't like research so I probably won't go, plus I'm an undergraduate, they probably will waitlist me until I graduate.

 

[SuperTrooper]

bump