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Is D.O. a cop-out?

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - MD' started by GoodDog, Dec 22, 2005.

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  1. GoodDog

    GoodDog Junior Member
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    Some of my friends have decided to go to D.O. schools...only b/c they did not do so hot on their aug. mcats

    would you consider this as a cop-out....a way to just "be a doctor" to most likely make a lot of money?
    rather than re-take in april & apply again?

    they never had any interest in D.O. until they got their scores

    do you think D.O. schools recognize this? that they start interning at a D.O. office at the same time they are applying to D.O.
     
  2. MarzMD

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    A DO bashing/what are my chances thread all in one. This will go over well.
     
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  3. silas2642

    silas2642 silas2642
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    I know. I can smell the sh#@ hitting the fan already.
     
  4. gogo110182

    gogo110182 Senior Member
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    exactly........
     
  5. EctopicFetus

    EctopicFetus Keeping it funky enough
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    This should be fun. I will sit back and watch
     
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  6. gogo110182

    gogo110182 Senior Member
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    18 on the mcat??? International is the way to go..........
     
  7. MollyMalone

    MollyMalone I'm a Score Quadruplet
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    [​IMG]
     
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  8. MarzMD

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    The Mods should make it a mandatory week(or more) before any new user can start their own thread. Is that possible? I think it will really make their jobs a lot easier if the NEW THREAD button was disabled for a week for new users. They can still "post reply" though. Just a thought.
     
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  9. exmike

    exmike NOR * CAL
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    not even sure about that
     
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  10. Napoleon4000

    Napoleon4000 Senior Member
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    The short answer is yes they (the DO schools) do know if applicants are just applying because they didn't get into an allopathic. My answer comes from the US News 2006 Best Graduate Schools. There is an article on "the other degree." It is stated in the article, that admissions for these schools looks for demonstrated knowledge and experience of the DO philosophy. I would suggest reading it. DO is not a "cop-out." It is a legitimate degree with legitimate training and licensure. We will probably be working with peers who have a variety of experiences and training. My advice is to be concientious of that fact.
     
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  11. Napoleon4000

    Napoleon4000 Senior Member
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  12. jon stewart

    jon stewart Senior Member
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    even better, lets bring in the carib schools.
     
  13. QuantumMechanic

    QuantumMechanic Avatar=One of the Greats
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    its currently a legitimate degree that may be compromised by the uncontrolled opening of many DO schools that may happen in the next decade which has the potential to cheapen the degree just as would opening up many more MD schools would. see my post under the alaska thread that's floating around...
     
  14. abceasyas123

    abceasyas123 Junior Member
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    Is M.D. a cop-out?


    Some of my friends have decided to go to M.D. schools...only b/c they did not make it in hollywood.

    would you consider this as a cop-out....a way to just make lots of money?
    rather than audition for a big blockbuster film again?

    they never had any interest in M.D. until they got rejected by steven spielberg.

    what are the chances of getting in anywhere (M.D.) with a MCAT score of 45 and a GPA of 4.0?
     
  15. Napoleon4000

    Napoleon4000 Senior Member
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    I'm not sure if there are any REAL differences exept by the elitism which is part of both MD (who think they are better trained out of tradition) and DO (who think they are more holistic) but here we go:

    1. The average GPA and MCAT scores for osteopathic matriculants in 2002 were 3.4 and 25, respectively, as compared to 3.45 and 30 at allopathic schools.

    2. Allopathic training will give you the option to practice in any of the medical specialties, and, unlike the D.O. (Doctorate of Osteopathic Medicine), the M.D. is universally recognized as a medical degree. If you are interested in practicing overseas, the M.D. is far easier to negotiate with than is the D.O.

    3. D.O. programs concentrate more effort on primary care, training strong, general physicians before specialists. They emphasize preventative care and a holistic approach to patient care, treating the whole person, not just symptoms;


    4. D.O. programs focus extra attention on musculo-skeletal health and train students in Osteopathic Manipulative Treatment, a unique, hands-on approach to diagnosis and treatment;


    5. M.D.s do their clinical rotations in a teaching hospital affiliated with their medical school while D.O.s do their clinical rotations in community hospitals and local doctor's offices;

    6. D.O.s must pass the COMLEX board exam to be licensed; in some cases, D.O.s also take the USMLE board exam if they choose to compete for some allopathic residency program;

    7. D.O.s have the option of pursuing an osteopathic residency program or applying for a residency through the National Residency Match Program ("The Match") used by allopathic physicians.

    One final factor to consider is that, while most D.O.s feel that their training is as strong as, if not superior to, M.D. training, prospective D.O.s should be prepared to be a part of the minority in the medical community. Because they comprise only 6 percent of American doctors, osteopathic physicians must often explain—and sometimes defend—their educational background. When considering the weight of this issue, it may also be useful to consider where you plan to practice. In states such as Pennsylvania and Michigan, osteopathic doctors comprise about 10 percent of all practicing physicians, whereas in many Southern and Southwesters states like Arizona and Arkansas, they make up less than 1 percent of the physician population. If you are not comfortable being part of a misunderstood or minority group, osteopathy may not be a good fit for you.

    Whether you chose to become an M.D. or a D.O., medical school is a long and challenging journey that will require stamina, commitment, and a lot of hard work. You will be most successful—not to mention happiest—in a program that fits with your personal philosophy and career goals. Before you apply to any medical school, allopathic or osteopathic, you should carefully consider where you can get the education you need to do the work you want to do.

    The best way to decide which path is right for you is to spend time with both M.D.s and D.O.s, and to talk with them about the differences in their practices.


    Disclaimer all this info is from www.princetonreview.com
    __________________
     
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  16. tigershark

    tigershark Senior Member
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    A program director at a radiology interview explained why they didnt take DOs in their program:

    He said he had gone to see a new DO school that had just opened. It was in a shopping center and you could still see where the "Cloth World" letters had been taken down over the front door.

    He went on to say that DOs will never have the credibility of an MD degree because there is no standard accrediting body like the LCGME for DO schools.
     
  17. QuantumMechanic

    QuantumMechanic Avatar=One of the Greats
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    an 18 probably indicates that (if you have taken the required premed classes) your ability to read english/to comprehend the most basic science required to learn medicine is at such a level that you should reconsider your future career goals. as a doctor once told me, "i use those college science classes everyday, not having a good base knowledge in them would be like driving a car without wheels".
     
  18. DarkFark

    DarkFark Senior Member
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    how much longer till the pre-osteo board finds out about this and comes marching with torches and pitchforks?
     
  19. abceasyas123

    abceasyas123 Junior Member
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    So as docs, we have to use Markonikov's rule and all? I thought only pharmacists need to know that. And the parts of a grasshopper?
     
  20. Doctor Bagel

    Doctor Bagel so cheap and juicy
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    :thumbdown: mods, can we lock this before it gets nastier?

    yes, cop out degrees usually require four years of post-graduate study, the passage of a three-step licensing exam and a 3+ year residency. :rolleyes:
     
  21. medhacker

    medhacker We can end world poverty!
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    what kind of doctor was this? all doctors I know (have worked with) gladly claim they use nada from the 1st two years of med school much less undergrad

    :confused:
     
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  22. Turkeyman

    Turkeyman Trickster Poultry
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    *munch munch* Oh, why thank you very much DarkSide *munch*
     
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  23. abceasyas123

    abceasyas123 Junior Member
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    agreed.
     
  24. Doctor Bagel

    Doctor Bagel so cheap and juicy
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    yes, it's very rational to judge an applicant for a position based on the exterior of their school instead of looking at relevant, objective factors like lor's, board scores, grades, etc. :rolleyes:
     
  25. QuantumMechanic

    QuantumMechanic Avatar=One of the Greats
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    an ob/gyn. anyone trying to deny that basic science knowledge is required to learn medicine is denying the validity of modern medicine: it is a discipline grounded in biology, chemistry, and physics.
     
  26. QuantumMechanic

    QuantumMechanic Avatar=One of the Greats
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    yeah, if I were on the adcom of a med school I'd rather take the guy who didn't learn any bio or orgo :rolleyes:
     
  27. mtDNA

    mtDNA Senior Member
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    Im going to D.O. school in the fall (MSUCOM), here are my stats: 4.0 Gpa, 33 MCAT. There is more to it than not being good enough for M.D. schools. As for your friend...18 is pretty low, he should retake, I doubt D.O. schools will take him/her.
     
  28. Punisher

    Punisher Senior Member
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    Why should this thread be locked? It isn't nasty at all... infact, I think Napoleon4000 had a great, insightful response to the OP's question.
     
  29. abceasyas123

    abceasyas123 Junior Member
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    Of course science relates to EVERYTHING. But does an ob/gyn explains the kinematic equations to his/her co-workers, patients? By the time you get through your first year in med school, basic sciences is like knowing your abc's. Who learns the abc's--kindergartners, not 2nd graders.
     
  30. masterMood

    masterMood Membership Revoked
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    What's the name of the D.O. school that is in a shopping mall. And if that DO school did exist, that would be the exception and not the norm.
     
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  31. QuantumMechanic

    QuantumMechanic Avatar=One of the Greats
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    and the abc's are necessary to read and to write and to analyze and ultimately to learn higher things thats why the basic sciences are important, not as some clinically huge thing, but as a the building blocks for future doctors to learn and understand medicine, get it?
     
  32. raspberry swirl

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    yeah, im curious as to which school that is. because i think i've seen all of them except the georgia and vegas ones, and im 99% none of them were in a strip mall, and im also pretty sure the two newest schools were built as new buildings . . . care to back that up, tigershark? (and if you can't, then you never should have posted it . . . unless of course it was a blatant flame that i accidentally took seriously.). are you sure that radiologist wasn't confusing osteopathy with naturopathy? :smuggrin:
     
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  33. Doctor Bagel

    Doctor Bagel so cheap and juicy
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    my guess is that it's a very dated reference to western u/comp. the school is in what used to be a strip mall. however, it's been totally redone and has really nice facilities on the inside. admittedly, the outside looks a little weird, but that doesn't say anything about the quality of education there.
     
  34. abceasyas123

    abceasyas123 Junior Member
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    People recover. That's the point I'm trying to make. You can't down someone for not making A++ in the basics. I know people who didn't do that well in basics but were LUCKY to have been given A CHANCE to go to MD school, and they ended up at the top of their class in med school. I know this may be hearsay to you, but to me, that proves that people do not have to be know-it-all-all-the-time to succeed.
     
  35. Doctor Bagel

    Doctor Bagel so cheap and juicy
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    perhaps, but i wasn't referring to napoleon's post. also, i believe he's posted that in several threads now, so it's not like this thread is serving a useful public purpose.
     
  36. QuantumMechanic

    QuantumMechanic Avatar=One of the Greats
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    exactly a reason why the mcat is used. it gives those who didn't do so hot in the premed classes a chance to show that they can learn material when pressured to perform well on a test.
     
  37. AFSmiley

    AFSmiley Member
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    Here's the deal. Most PreMeders starting their freshman year of college envision themselves two years down the road happily applying for Medical School with a 3.9 Science GPA, and a 37 on the MCAT. Everybody knows this is a pretty competitive process we're all going through, and so people just want to have confidence that they're going to get accepted where they want to go. When reality erodes away fantasy, and that 3.9 and 37 are actually a 3.1 and a 23, people start to question how much confidence they have going through the AAMCAS process, and they start to look for options that match their numbers a little better. Osteopathic schools might be the first route they turn to, but there's also options like Dentistry, Pharmacy, Podiatry, etc etc etc. I would encourage those who truly want that MD to take a step back and realize that not every path has to be a straight shot. There are Post-Bac. programs, master's degrees, volunteering, etc that can strengthen their application tremendously. Also, number's aren't everything. Below is a link from my University that lists the Sci GPA's and MCAT's of people accepted to schools in state. You'll notice there are a handful who have well below a 25 going and/or a low GPA accepted to ALLOPATHIC schools.

    http://honors.tamu.edu/opsa/pdf_files/medchart04.pdf

    Keep it at, and you'll get where you want to go eventually.

    Merry Christmas,
    JMPeffer
     
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  38. abceasyas123

    abceasyas123 Junior Member
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    Come on, the MCAT is there to serve its duty. It's necc, it's required, blah blah. But that test is messed up in the head. Again, hearsay, a lawyer guy had no background in basic sciences, just the few classes required to take during his undergrad years, took the MCAT, scored a 35. He is known to be an excellent test taker. People not only have to know science, they have to figure out the MCAT's tricks, and be cunning when it comes to taking that dang test. Hey, I took that $1000 princeton review courses, the teachers always mentions what tricks the MCAT likes to use. I made a 21 on the test, have a gpa of 3.5, and got into to med school a year ago. I can honestly say I'm wasn't the brightest in undergrad, but I made all A's my first year in Med school. That is my biggest shock. Did I work harder? No. I worked as had as I worked undergrad. I struggled with my basics. But now that my first year is over and I'm in my 2nd, basic sciences is something that you just learn or encounter on the way as you study the harder stuff. When you study the hard stuff, basics is like your ABC's. It's just there. You know it, everyone knows it, but its not important...what's important is the actually stuff you have to retain for an exam. Oh, how did I get into med school with that GPA? I did extracurriculars, and believe it or not, I do have a good personality. I maybe sarcastic at times, read the posts, you'll see, but I get along with everyone i meet. I don't suck up or try not to be annoying, but I like to make people feel comfortable and when I talk to strangers, I speak to them as they are my friend. So I think my interview had A LOT to do with me getting into school--not my grades/score
     
  39. OP,

    This topic has been discussed ad-nauseum. Please, I do beg you, perform a 'search' before starting any threads. Although this is a pre-allo forum, I can tell you now that this thread will probably not be well received. Still, if a trolling debate complete with flames is what you're looking for - go right ahead a post this in the pre-osteo forum and see what you get!

    Personally, I am only a pre-med. As it stands ANY D.O. and M.D. has completed almost twice the amount of schooling than I have and probably life experiences as well. So it doesn't make a difference to me which letters a physician has following their name. Right now, they are STILL better than and further along than me in the path of medicine. Who am I to say which is better / harder / easier / prestigious / copout / etc..?
     
  40. Will Ferrell

    Will Ferrell Senior Member
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    :thumbup: good post
     
  41. QuantumMechanic

    QuantumMechanic Avatar=One of the Greats
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    easy to say the test is messed up when you don't do as well you like, and easy to say the test is a good indicator of performance when you do better than you hoped. This all begs a question, which you may know the answer to, how could the selection process be better? Obviously in your case the mcat wasnt a good predictor of future performance, but what else can you change in the admission process to objectively judge the applicant? Everyone does EC's (some are better than others though) and lots of people can interview well and fake out a truly despicable personality while replacing it with a friendly disposition. The mcat already has been tinkered with in the past and will be in the future, but in the end some people will do poorly on it that will make the better doctors. As I see it, the current system does its best using the resources it has with academic (gpa and mcat) and nonacademic (ECs LORs, research, etc) factors to make the best decision. Fortunately, for you, you demonstrated your desire to become a physician and you got in. Unfortunately for others, they do not succeed like you and do not get in either because they don't understand how to play the system or they don't actually have the amount of desire needed to show a med school that they want to be a physician. In the end the big picture, academic and nonacademic is what matters.
     
  42. GoodDog

    GoodDog Junior Member
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    people, people, people......I am going to give all of you one word of advice that about 1 million people have said to you all: RELAX!

    this is just a forum!
    I didn't mean for this to get crazy....read from start to end, it goes off-topic so much...that's where the argument comes from...its like arguing evolution and intelligent design! the argument starts when everyone gets off-topic

    all I was saying was that I know people who did not do well, and all of a sudden decided to do D.O......as opposed to MD, when MD was what they wanted to do all along.

    There probably are people out there who want to become DO...fine! congrats buddy!
    BUT...there are people who want to be a "Dr......, MD or DO or etc" just for the prestige perhaps? or whatever else that floats their boats

    I was just sharing my experience!
    relax...no need to start flames!
     
  43. Taus

    Taus .
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    its stayed civil so far...but I'm still getting some popcorn for this one...
     
  44. EctopicFetus

    EctopicFetus Keeping it funky enough
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    It is amazing how this topic no matter how many times a yr it comes up catches fire. I assure you no other post today has gotten 30+ posts in it..

    LOL..

    The reality is that once residency starts I dont think there is any difference. Now most DOs will tell you there is a difference in getting interviews but once you are in everyone is the same.
     
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  45. dilated

    dilated Fought Law; Law Won
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    That doesn't seem right. The numbers I've heard for allo are more like 3.6/30. Which is a pretty significant difference from 3.4/25, considering the MCAT is on a normal distribution.
     
  46. EctopicFetus

    EctopicFetus Keeping it funky enough
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    I cant speak for osteo but there is NO WAY the Med school GPA average is 3.45.. When I applied in 2002 it was like 3.58 or so..
     
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  47. GoodDog

    GoodDog Junior Member
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    lol....it must be a good post then huh?
    basically, I was just wondering people's opinions about it, but people are taking it to heart...lol

    waiting for updates from med schools is getting boring!
     
  48. kimmcauliffe

    kimmcauliffe Surfer Chum
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    You are funnnnnny!
     
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  49. kimmcauliffe

    kimmcauliffe Surfer Chum
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    Agreed... well said from someone who probably doesn't stress about getting an A- in class. Some people on here should look to this post for a voice of reason.
     
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  50. EctopicFetus

    EctopicFetus Keeping it funky enough
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    This should lead to an interesting discussion..

    Call it adding fuel to the fire?

    http://www.washington.edu/students/ugrad/advising/gpamcat.pdf
    This is from 2002
    Some highlights..
    The lowest US Med School average GPA (MCPHahnemann) was 3.43, NYMC 3.4, Mercer 3.3,

    These were the only 3 schools I could find on that list with GPAs less than 3.45

    Of course I only did a quick scan. They are laid out by state..

    There are also some DOs schools...

    Should be fun!
     
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