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Did you read anything I posted earlier? If they get their data from "EMPLOYERS" that would make sense. Most anesthesiologists do surgeries at multiple hospitals and surgical centers. Collections from multiple places. Therefore collections from would underestimate the salary of an employee such as an anesthesiologist.


Seems to line up almost exactly with physicians that I personally know. You are entitled to believe whatever you want, but that won't change reality at all.
I apologize; I had assumed you ended up actually READING (I'm starting to notice a trend here) what is listed on the page I linked at some point. The data collected from employers is NOT annual wages but amount paid out PER HOUR. The Median wage (which is what you seem fixated on) is calculated by taking the $/hr * 40 * 52. In other words, it doesn't matter if they collect their income from 231489154289159 different sources because the data was collected with that in mind.
 

Panis et Circenses

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I apologize; I had assumed you ended up actually READING (I'm starting to notice a trend here) what is listed on the page I linked at some point. The data collected from employers is NOT annual wages but amount paid out PER HOUR. The Median wage (which is what you seem fixated on) is calculated by taking the $/hr * 40 * 52. In other words, it doesn't matter if they collect their income from 231489154289159 different sources because the data was collected with that in mind.
There are two different numbers from two different sources (although ironically the bls quotes mgma). One of them is more accurate than the other. The methods of reporting a numeric value of salary have no bearing on what the truth is. I know with about 99% certainty which of those is more accurate. You can believe whatever you want, whatever fancies your agenda. Have a nice day.
 
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There are two different numbers from two different sources. One of them is more accurate than the other. The methods of reporting a numeric value of salary have no bearing on what the truth is. I know with about 99% certainty which of those is more accurate. I'll allow you to believe whatever you want, whatever fancies your agenda. Have a nice day.
Except one source comes from the federal government with over 29,000 respondents for ONE medical specialty from nearly every source of employment across the entire country while the source you support to doesn't even have 20,000 TOTAL respondents across the ENTIRE FIELD OF MEDICINE.

Its absolutely stunning that you believe that employers from around the country are a part of a 52 state-wide conspiracy to under represent the income of Anesthesiologists.
 
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Panis et Circenses

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Except one source comes from the federal government with over 29,000 respondents for ONE medical specialty from nearly every source of employment across the entire country while the source you support to doesn't even have 20,000 TOTAL respondents across the ENTIRE FIELD OF MEDICINE.

Its absolutely stunning that you believe that employers from around the country are a part of a 52 state-wide conspiracy to under represent the income of Anesthesiologists.
... the number is wrong, take a hike buddy. Keep believing it though, if that's what helps you sleep better at night.

By the way, there are only 50 states..
 
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I think once you hit that 400 grand level you really need to consider HPSP. Or at the very least try to get into state school or a cheap private school. 400k of non-dischargable debt is certainly gonna be a headache in the long run.
 
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... the number is wrong, take a hike buddy. Keep believing it though, if that's what helps you sleep better at night.
Let's be real. You were never here to have an actual discussion. You never actually considered the fact that you might be wrong nor did you spend a few moments of your time to read anything I linked you (as shown by the multiple times I had to correct you). You are here to drive home your opinion as a fact. You are so desperate to believe that figure that you just proceeded to invalidate our entire federal government and further continued on to claim hospitals, public health centers, etc.. unanimously agree to hold a 52 state wide conference once every 3 years to discuss how to defraud the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

It scares the **** out of me that someone like you could potentially become a physician / dentist.
 

Panis et Circenses

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Let's be real. You were never here to have an actual discussion. You never actually considered the fact that you might be wrong nor did you spend a few moments of your time to read anything I linked you (as shown by the multiple times I had to correct you). You are here to drive home your opinion as a fact. You are so desperate to believe that figure that you just proceeded to invalidate our entire federal government and further continued on to claim hospitals, public health centers, etc.. unanimously agree to hold a 52 state wide conference once every 3 years to discuss how to defraud the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

It scares the **** out of me that someone like you could potentially become a physician / dentist.
Just so you know, there are only 50 states, lol. I tried to give this up but you insisted on pushing it. I'm against misinformation. The FBL doesn't have the correct numbers, but you keep insisting they do.. Based on what? Your agenda? You are the one coming here, bringing nothing but your agenda to the table.

I know physicians and I'm trying to be helpful by informing people what they actually make. That's the last time I do that. And if that scares you, then anything in health care is going to be too scary for you (wait till you see blood!) and you should probably reconsider your career goals.

Peace. :thumbup:
 
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Just so you know, there are 50 states. I tried to give this up but you insisted on pushing it. I'm against misinformation. The FBL doesn't have the correct numbers, but you keep insisting they do.. Based on what? Your agenda? You are the one coming here, bringing nothing but your agenda to the table.

I know physicians and I'm trying to be helpful by informing people what they actually make. That's the last time I do that. And if that scares you, then anything in health care is going to be too scary for you and you should probably reconsider your career goals.

Peace. :thumbup:
I'll make sure to type out '50 states, the District of Columbia, and Puerto Rico' next time instead of simplifying it to 52 because some people need that to be specified. Sorry.

The irony of the bolded is incredible. You realize you're doing that exact same thing, right? Do you understand the implications of your argument? How is there such widespread inaccuracies in every single state? Magic? Voodoo? Just cuz? No seriously, if you ignore every else, just explain this to me because 29,000 accounts for almost the ENTIRE anesthesiology work force in the entirety of the US. Other than calling A LOT of people liars or grossly incompetent, I'm not sure how you've come to believe that data is inaccurate or false.

I'm glad that sample size of your uncle, dad, and accountant 'friend' qualifies you to inform people about what physician's gross income is. You should inform the hundreds of thousands of employees you just deemed incompetent about what you know so the BLS and all of the administrative employees in charge of our countries healthcare records understand what you know. I would also suggest you put that on your resume when you apply to medical / dental school. Its not often that someone is able to correctly identify major flaw in national data records. ;)

Also, to suggest that 'anything in healthcare' is as scary as some dude who genuinely believes that he knows something that none of the 10k+ highly educated individuals that work with the BLS know AND that 100k+ administrators are lying cheats, who collectively all agree to lie to the federal government is a tall order my friend.
 
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deleted547631

I'll make sure to type out '50 states, the district of Columbia, and Puerto Rico' next time instead of simplifying it to 52 because some people need that to be specified. Sorry.

The irony of the bolded is incredible. You realize you're doing that exact same thing, right? Except my version is a lot less crazy than yours in that I think MGMA is inflated and the BLS is deflated as it only assume a 40 hr work week.

I'm glad that sample size of your uncle, dad, and accountant 'friend' qualifies you to inform people about what physician's gross income is. You should inform the hundreds of thousands of employees you just deemed incompetent about what you know so the BLS and all of the administrative employees in charge of our countries healthcare records understand what you know. I would also suggest you put that on your resume when you apply to medical / dental school. Its not often that someone is able to correctly identify major flaw in national data records. ;)

Also, to suggest that 'anything in healthcare' is as scary as some dude who genuinely believes that he knows something that none of the 10k+ highly educated individuals that work with the BLS know AND that 100k+ administrators are lying cheats, who collectively all agree to lie to the federal government is a tall order my friend.
BLS numbers are low for true private practice doctors. Everyone knows that.
 
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BLS numbers are low for true private practice doctors. Everyone knows that.
No disagreements here but I'm sure that you and I can agree that PP physicians no longer represent the majority of currently employed physicians. I'm sure that there are plenty of physicians in PP who make well above the displayed income on the BLS but the argument is about the average / median income. Not to mention that the BLS averages assume a 40hr work week which is inaccurate for a good portion of the medical community (I would assume, anyways) but to invalidate all of that data is a pretty insane argument to make.
 
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Cello

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Arguing average salaries between dentists and doctors is probably a waste of time.

Starting salaries in ortho can vary by as much as $200,000 to $250,000. Even in dentistry, a professor at our school said that graduates last year started between ~$100,000 up to $270,000 (dude worked weekends apparently). That is a huge variance.

Surgeons may have an income guarantee of $200,000 with a $50,000 starting bonus at one practice and a $500,000 starting salary with a $50,000 starting bonus at another practice somewhere else. How do averages help you with that? Even knowing one or two physicians' salaries really doesn't paint an accurate picture. I know of surgeons making $200,000 to do the same job as others making $600,000. It is largely a matter of where you work and your negotiating skills.

Even looking at job sites for surgeons is unhelpful, as are the recruiting flyers they mail out incessantly. Those jobs are advertising insanely high salaries because they are trying to recruit surgeons to rural areas. Ads which promise "$700,000 guaranteed in a beautiful and scenic town only 9 hours from anywhere else!" might lead you to believe that ortho surgeons make a lot more money than they typically do. But of course now we know that there is one ortho surgeon located 9 hours from anywhere else who is making a killing. Job sites typically share salary info for jobs which desperately need people are are willing to dish out a lot more money to attract top talent to the area.

There are simply too many variables for averages to be helpful.

  • Private practice?
  • Do you have an income guarantee?
  • Do you earn a percentage of production?
  • What is your clinic's overhead?
  • Hospital employed?
  • Is your pay based on RVUs?
  • Does your hospital bundle payments?
  • Are you joining a group practice?
  • Is it a multispecialty group or single specialty? (You may have to share higher overhead and lower production with GPs and internists)
  • Can you buy in?
  • Will you have ancillary income?
  • What is the ROI?
  • What is the bonus structure if there is one?
 
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deleted547631

No disagreements here but I'm sure that you and I can agree that PP physicians no longer represent the majority of currently employed physicians. I'm sure that there are plenty of physicians in PP who make well above the displayed income on the BLS but the argument is about the average / median income. Not to mention that the BLS averages assume a 40hr work week which is inaccurate for a good portion of the medical community (I would assume, anyways) but to invalidate all of that data is a pretty insane argument to make.
Indeed. Doctors generally work more hours, essentially demand is so high for doctors that there is virtually unlimited work available.

Yes, the shift toward employment has been quite palpable for the last eight years in medicine. I foresee dentistry, in general, following suit with all the corporate dental offices popping up on every block in my city. Heartland Dental Corporation bought out my 70+ year old dentist's practice last Spring for nearly $800K. I've chosen to find a true private practice dentist for my family's needs and will expect to pay cash-only for that privilege because I find cash-only dentists to be the most superb in ethical standards and care. My now retired dentist had many dentist suitors (graduated before 2006) interested in his practice but none of them could come close to beating out the corporation's offer. The office is now staffed by two recent dental graduates earning about $120K in salary, both recently graduated from Tufts and saddled with student loans and mortgages. This is the new reality for dentistry in this country.

Elite outliers will always exist (i.e. spine surgeons, cash pay psychiatrists, concierge doctors, established cosmetic dentists, busy hospitalists and EM doctors, etc). They will adapt and thrive. See posts from @Cold Front and @charlestweed - these guys are examples of successful entrepreneur dentists to emulate, debt be damned.
 
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EasTexan

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We're screwed when the student loan bubble bursts.
From what I've read and from my basic understanding of the housing bubble, there's not really any mechanism or avenue for a true student loan "bubble" or burst. Just a long drawn out drag on the economy as students can no long afford houses, cars, saving, investing, retiring because of the monkey on their back.
 
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schmoob

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From what I've read and from my basic understanding of the housing bubble, there's not really any mechanism or avenue for a true student loan "bubble" or burst. Just a long drawn out drag on the economy as students can no long afford houses, cars, saving, investing, retiring because of the monkey on their back.
We'll said.

Maybe the next generation of kids will think twice before they decide to major in 17th Century Russian Literature, or Underwater Basket-weaving. Then they're surprised they can't find a "real job." Then blame "Corporate America." Then they decide to focus on income inequality, point out the issues in this country and how it's everyone else's fault they can't find a job.
Personally, if I'm going to take out $50K in student debt, I'm going to be sure to get something that I can use out of it to make myself marketable. Or even to pay it back! Otherwise I'm not taking on a $50K student loan for something thats more of a hobby.

Sorry for the rant. I'm so tired....:dead:
 

Panis et Circenses

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In 5-10 years.

600-700k debt is totally manageable on a 100k salary
-Very naïve Dental school student
At that point, there are so many better things you could do with that much money, like buying a duplex, opening a restaurant franchise, starting some other type of business.. hopefully people aren't stupid enough to go to dental school at that cost and the market will correct itself before it gets to that point.
 
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EasTexan

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At that point, there are so many better things you could do with that much money, like buying a duplex, opening a restaurant franchise, starting some other type of business.. hopefully people aren't stupid enough to go to dental school at that cost and the market will correct itself before it gets to that point.
Well, if you're not a dental student you probably don't have $600-700k. :D

And yes, I know his comment wasn't really serious.
 
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schmoob

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At that point, there are so many better things you could do with that much money, like buying a duplex, opening a restaurant franchise, starting some other type of business.. hopefully people aren't stupid enough to go to dental school at that cost and the market will correct itself before it gets to that point.
In theory, yes you can do those things. But again there are variables involved beyond your control.
What if your duplex becomes a money pit? Or the market value? Real Estate is usually a good investment, but it's not foolproof.
Restaurant franchise is good. But which one? And what's the guarantee that you will get your ROI?
As a dentist, you're investing in yourself. You're investing in the OPPORTUNITY to make a significant income if you choose to.
Not earning enough? Go rural. You can make plenty of money there. Wherever you go your DDS/DMD (yes, and your debt) goes with you. You have the opportunity to practice where you want in whatever setting you want to.
I am aware you can claim bankruptcy on a failed business but not on a federal student loan. But if you file for bankruptcy and wipe out that debt from a potentially failed business, what's next? What do you do?

Not challenging you or anything, it's just that for people to say that ANYONE who spends that much on their education is stupid is very general and covers a good range of the dental school population.
 

Panis et Circenses

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In theory, yes you can do those things. But again there are variables involved beyond your control.
What if your duplex becomes a money pit? Or the market value? Real Estate is usually a good investment, but it's not foolproof.
Restaurant franchise is good. But which one? And what's the guarantee that you will get your ROI?
As a dentist, you're investing in yourself. You're investing in the OPPORTUNITY to make a significant income if you choose to.
Not earning enough? Go rural. You can make plenty of money there. Wherever you go your DDS/DMD (yes, and your debt) goes with you. You have the opportunity to practice where you want in whatever setting you want to.
I am aware you can claim bankruptcy on a failed business but not on a federal student loan. But if you file for bankruptcy and wipe out that debt from a potentially failed business, what's next? What do you do?

Not challenging you or anything, it's just that for people to say that ANYONE who spends that much on their education is stupid is very general and covers a good range of the dental school population.
No one is spending 600-700k yet :laugh: Except maybe for some specialists who went to private schools. But specialists usually make more anyway.

All i'm saying is that with 700k you could probably open restaurant franchise(s) and make hundreds of thousands in passive income. If the business fails, try again with a new one. No risk, no reward, eh? :D
 

schmoob

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No one is spending 600-700k yet :laugh: Except maybe for some specialists who went to private schools. But specialists usually make more anyway.

All i'm saying is that with 700k you could probably open restaurant franchise(s) and make hundreds of thousands in passive income. If the business fails, try again with a new one. No risk, no reward, eh? :D
No risk, no reward is right.
The question I posed is, if a business fails, what do you do next? In theory, trying again with a new one is great. But with a bankruptcy due to a failed business, how likely is it that you would receive another business loan? If your previous lender lost money with you, it is unlikely to receive another loan for a business.
Unless you royally screw up as a dentist, you are able to BE a dentist indefinitely. You still have the knowledge and skills regardless of outcome.
 

Panis et Circenses

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No risk, no reward is right.
The question I posed is, if a business fails, what do you do next? In theory, trying again with a new one is great. But with a bankruptcy due to a failed business, how likely is it that you would receive another business loan? If your previous lender lost money with you, it is unlikely to receive another loan for a business.
Unless you royally screw up as a dentist, you are able to BE a dentist indefinitely. You still have the knowledge and skills regardless of outcome.
Provided you do market research on the demographics, you can have a fairly good chance of making it. I've never heard of a McDonald's or Jimmy John's go out of business. To play devil's advocate, I definitely have heard of dental practices failing. Remember hearing about the Phoenix area fiasco not too long ago?
 
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schmoob

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Provided you do market research on the demographics, you can have a fairly good chance of making it. I've never heard of a McDonald's or Jimmy John's go out of business. To play devil's advocate, I definitely have heard of dental practices failing. Remember hearing about the Phoenix area fiasco not too long ago?
Yes, but it's a little more complicated than that. The reason you don't see them going out of business is because franchises have certain requirements. For example, AFAIK McDonald's requires franchise buyers to have a certain amount of completely liquid assets. I don't really feel like digging through it, but any Joe Schmo can't just open a franchise. Also, you cannot open one where you want. The corporation gets involved and does the market analysis and ultimately chooses location. That's just one example. Another example is Chick-fil-A: you will not collect a passive income because they have requirements that owners be involved in the operation of the restaurant. You cannot go opening them all over the state. I think they may even have a limit on how many franchises you can open. That's why when you walk in to one, it's common to see a picture of who owns that location because you will see them there.

Honestly, it's apples and oranges when comparing student loans to opening up businesses. It is not easy. Especially the restaurant business.
Not trying to call you out but if its so easy to just open a business, why haven't you done it yet? Why finish school if you can just run your own operation? In fact, if you expect a passive income you can just finish school once the business is up and running.
There's alot to it and it takes a considerable amount of effort, involvement, and risk.
 

Panis et Circenses

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Yes, but it's a little more complicated than that. The reason you don't see them going out of business is because franchises have certain requirements. For example, AFAIK McDonald's requires franchise buyers to have a certain amount of completely liquid assets. I don't really feel like digging through it, but any Joe Schmo can't just open a franchise. Also, you cannot open one where you want. The corporation gets involved and does the market analysis and ultimately chooses location. That's just one example. Another example is Chick-fil-A: you will not collect a passive income because they have requirements that owners be involved in the operation of the restaurant. You cannot go opening them all over the state. I think they may even have a limit on how many franchises you can open. That's why when you walk in to one, it's common to see a picture of who owns that location because you will see them there.

Honestly, it's apples and oranges when comparing student loans to opening up businesses. It is not easy. Especially the restaurant business.
Not trying to call you out but if its so easy to just open a business, why haven't you done it yet? Why finish school if you can just run your own operation? In fact, if you expect a passive income you can just finish school once the business is up and running.
There's alot to it and it takes a considerable amount of effort, involvement, and risk.
Yeah I understand what you're talking about. But, my original point is that if it gets bad enough that student loans are 700k, you should really consider other options. Because there are a LOT of things you could do with that money. Many of them being potentially a lot more lucrative than dentistry.
 

Cold Front

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Some interesting high paying careers out there, which are in high demand. Particularly based on services that I have used.

1. Painter: Can charge $500-1k a day, not including materials. Almost zero overhead.

2. A roofer repair technician: $500-$2k a day depending on the extent of the problem.

3. Plumber: $100 an hour. They can charge this amount for just coming out.

4. A realtor: The real estate market is hot now, so assuming you work in upper middle class markets, they can make 6 figures easy. Still a lot of effort and experience goes into it.

5. Tiles and flooring: $500-1,000 a day. Kitchen backsplash, shower tiles, you name it... these guys can make a killing at the right markets.

6. Franchisees: I already mentioned this, after the investment requirements are met, it can roll in good 6 figures plus income.

7. A locksmith: Don't get me started. These guys should be ashamed of themselves of what they charge when they help you to get back into your house.

The point is, all of the above professions don't go through the stress and sweat of school like we did/do, and they certainly don't carry huge student loans debts, and more importantly... a huge junk of those guys get paid in cash, and pay much less taxes that they should.

Dentists carry $500k in loans, dental insurances not keeping up with inflation, working for corporations, it's all adding up to a bad investment for many future doctors.
 
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Some interesting high paying careers out there, which are in high demand. Particularly based on services that I have used.

1. Painter: Can charge $500-1k a day, not including materials. Almost zero overhead.

2. A roofer repair technician: $500-$2k a day depending on the extent of the problem.

3. Plumber: $100 an hour. They can charge this amount for just coming out.

4. A realtor: The real estate market is hot now, so assuming you work in upper middle class markets, they can make 6 figures easy. Still a lot of effort and experience goes into it.

5. Tiles and flooring: $500-1,000 a day. Kitchen backsplash, shower tiles, you name it... these guys can make a killing at the right markets.

6. Franchisees: I already mentioned this, after the investment requirements are met, it can roll in good 6 figures plus income.

7. A locksmith: Don't get me started. These guys should be ashamed of themselves of what they charge when they help you to get back into your house.

The point is, all of the above professions don't go through the stress and sweat of school like we did/do, and they certainly don't carry huge student loans debts, and more importantly... a huge junk of those guys get paid in cash, and pay much less taxes that they should.

Dentists carry $500k in loans, dental insurances not keeping up with inflation, working for corporations, it's all adding up to a bad investment for many future doctors.
I think the biggest issue is that none of those things are very reliable (with the exception of franchising). Roofers, painters, plumbers, tilers, locksmiths charge a lot for a single day and it *looks* like they make a good income but you have to consider that its nigh impossible for them to actually land a paying gig every single working day for their entire career which drastically cuts their income. Furthermore, to get the major $ (or to have the base profits you quoted) you'd have to own the business which takes a metric [email protected]#! ton of time, effort, and $ to establish. Not to mention that none of them are guaranteed success (hell, even franchises fail), either. The second the economy takes a down turn half of those jobs would likely see a huge decrease in income which dentistry is more sheltered against. All the while Dentists are usually making at minimum over 6 figures. Sure, student loans suck and the concept of being a 'rich' doctor / dentist seems to be fleeting but its still (IMO) one of the most reliable ways to ensure a certain level of financial status.
 
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Panis et Circenses

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I think the biggest issue is that none of those things are very reliable (with the exception of franchising). Roofers, painters, plumbers, tilers, locksmiths charge a lot for a single day and it *looks* like they make a good income but you have to consider that its nigh impossible for them to actually land a paying gig every single working day for their entire career which drastically cuts their income. Furthermore, to get the major $ (or to have the base profits you quoted) you'd have to own the business which takes a metric [email protected]#! ton of time, effort, and $ to establish. Not to mention that none of them are guaranteed success (hell, even franchises fail), either. The second the economy takes a down turn half of those jobs would likely see a huge decrease in income which dentistry is more sheltered against. All the while Dentists are usually making at minimum over 6 figures. Sure, student loans suck and the concept of being a 'rich' doctor / dentist seems to be fleeting but its still (IMO) one of the most reliable ways to ensure a certain level of financial status.
Dental practices can fail, or can get pretty close to failing.

I wouldn't say dentistry is recession proof either. Still a necessity but people can put off checkups, and cleanings. Cosmetic dentistry is probably also very much affected by recessions.

Just playing Devil's advocate. Other than tuution costs, I have nothing against dentistry.
 
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Dental practices can fail, or can get pretty close to failing.

I wouldn't say dentistry is recession proof either. Still a necessity but people can put off checkups, and cleanings. Cosmetic dentistry is probably also very much affected by recessions.

Just playing Devil's advocate. Other than tuution costs, I have nothing against dentistry.
Agreed. They can and do fail but you don't have to own a practice to make a 6 figure income. Also, I said they were more protected not immune. Nothing is immune to poor economic conditions.
 
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Cold Front

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I think the biggest issue is that none of those things are very reliable (with the exception of franchising). Roofers, painters, plumbers, tilers, locksmiths charge a lot for a single day and it *looks* like they make a good income but you have to consider that its nigh impossible for them to actually land a paying gig every single working day for their entire career which drastically cuts their income. Furthermore, to get the major $ (or to have the base profits you quoted) you'd have to own the business which takes a metric [email protected]#! ton of time, effort, and $ to establish. Not to mention that none of them are guaranteed success (hell, even franchises fail), either. The second the economy takes a down turn half of those jobs would likely see a huge decrease in income which dentistry is more sheltered against. All the while Dentists are usually making at minimum over 6 figures. Sure, student loans suck and the concept of being a 'rich' doctor / dentist seems to be fleeting but its still (IMO) one of the most reliable ways to ensure a certain level of financial status.
Not sure about all the reasons you used. But when I call a plumber in my town, the good ones I have used before or similar, they can't get to me within 48-72 hours. Those guys are really busy. Not that I have a plumbing issues at my offices - I just listed my house to move into a bigger home, and there was a small shower leak in the master bathroom, thanks to my wife's long hair - the shower drains can clog horribly if unchecked for sometime. But back to the plumbers, give your local plumbers a call if you live in a medium sized city, those guys are doing well for themselves.

If housing market is doing well, then painters are doing well. All those new homes or homes that are about to be listed need painters. New businesses opening shops need painters. Heck, seasonal home improvements need painters. Look at how many Sherwin-Williams Paint shops are opening up around the country, someone has to help many of those customers paint their homes. Yes, commercials on TV make us think we can do it ourselves... but that's if you know what you are doing. So check, painters is a good gig too.

Locksmiths, those are hit and miss. But they are in the opportunist markets (emergencies), just like tow-trucks.

Franchisees are all about location, location, location. That's it. The rest will fall in place.

With the advent of technology like Zillow (read the Zillow book), realtors work have evolved from what use to be 90-120 days process to matter of days to sell a property. My younger brother sold his condo, and he closed in 10 days. 20 years or so ago, before cell phones and emails, buyer realtors use to run down to the local county office to look up property owner documents and confirm tons of information in person over 2-5 days process, then run to a phone booth, call the seller's agent about an offer, wait couple of weeks for a response, mail in a contract (2-3 days), have an attorney review it (a week), attorney then mails the buyer (another week), then buyer mails back to buyer agent, and so on. Could you imagine if that happened today? Now all is done in matter of hours; emails (group emails), e-sign documents, county auditor'a have everything online, closing can be done remotely too. So realtors saved so much time, as a result their income went up quite a bit. The profession is still evolving and has a good prospect and income.
 
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Cello

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Not sure about all the reasons you used. But when I call a plumber in my town, the good ones I have used before or similar, they can't get to me within 48-72 hours. Those guys are really busy. Not that I have a plumbing issues at my offices - I just listed my house to move into a bigger home, and there was a small shower leak in the master bathroom, thanks to my wife's long hair - the shower drains can clog horribly if unchecked for sometime. But back to the plumbers, give your local plumbers a call if you live in a medium sized city, those guys are doing well for themselves.

If housing market is doing well, then painters are doing well. All those new homes or homes that are about to be listed need painters. New businesses opening shops need painters. Heck, seasonal home improvements need painters. Look at how many Sherwin-Williams Paint shops are opening up around the country, someone has to help many of those customers paint their homes. Yes, commercials on TV make us think we can do it ourselves... but that's if you know what you are doing. So check, painters is a good gig too.

Locksmiths, those are hit and miss. But they are in the opportunist markets (emergencies), just like tow-trucks.

Franchisees are all about location, location, location. That's it. The rest will fall in place.

With the advent of technology like Zillow (read the Zillow book), realtors work have evolved from what use to be 90-120 days process to matter of days to sell a property. My younger brother sold his condo, and he closed in 10 days. 20 years or so ago, before cell phones and emails, buyer realtors use to run down to the local county office to look up property owner documents and confirm tons of information in person over 2-5 days process, then run to a phone booth, call the seller's agent about an offer, wait couple of weeks for a response, mail in a contract (2-3 days), have an attorney review it (a week), attorney then mails the buyer (another week), then buyer mails back to buyer agent, and so on. Could you imagine if that happened today? Now all is done in matter of hours; emails (group emails), e-sign documents, county auditor'a have everything online, closing can be done remotely too. So realtors saved so much time, as a result their income went up quite a bit. The profession is still evolving and has a good prospect and income.
All true, but I will point out that any one of those jobs has experienced fluctuating markets over the last two or three decades. Eight years ago we wouldn't be talking about how great realtors have it! You mentioned opportunistic markets with locksmiths and tow-trucks, but fluctuations afflict plumbers and realtors. Right now seems like the time everyone wants to get into real estate which likely means that 10 years from now there will be a glut of realtors competing for work. HVAC is a great market right now, but HVAC training programs are opening at every tech school across the United States. The same is true for diesel mechanics. So many people want to be diesel mechanics right now because the money is good.

I met a guy in my microbio class who owned his own painting company at 26. I was like, 'dude, why are you here?' He was making great money and was doing really well for himself, had picked up some big clients and employed several guys full-time. Of course he couldn't keep up with the course material and dropped out halfway through, but painting sounds like a great gig at the moment. Problem is, as he pointed out, the barrier for entry is low and that means huge fluctuations in the job market and great competition from new arrivals. His dad was buried the last time there was a glut of painters, but the market collapsed (Chicago area) and now my friend is making a killing in the aftermath.

Maybe the next generation of kids will think twice before they decide to major in Underwater Basket-weaving.
This is offered somewhere? Damn, I missed my calling!
 
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IOI

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400k, it is definitely overpriced degree. But you probably get what you pay for, a high quality education. But your starting salary will most likely be lower than average (because you do not do extractions and implants during dental school) in your community. It will take 7-8 years to pay off this loan while living as a student. So I think one should really like this job to be satisfied with this kind of investment. Based on my experience in dental school, I can assure you that undergrad, dat, and shadowing will not give you the real picture. You will know whether you like this job or not once you get exposed to the clinics and the laboratory during second year (or whatever that year is at your school). From my experience, it is a difficult career. Like in the clinics, you will be asking yourself, can I put on a smile even during bad days to be on the good side of the supervising dentist and the patient. In the laboratory, what happens when I feel challenged, do I ask my demonstrator or colleagues? Does this problem have a solution?
GL!
 
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oralcare123

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Seriously inflated numbers.
Maybe there are a lot of illegals in CA, but
1. To pant a room starts at 80$, huge house exterior 2500$
2. Realtors don't have it easy at all
3. To tile a floor quotes start at 1$ per sq ft, average at $4
Some interesting high paying careers out there, which are in high demand. Particularly based on services that I have used.

1. Painter: Can charge $500-1k a day, not including materials. Almost zero overhead.

2. A roofer repair technician: $500-$2k a day depending on the extent of the problem.

3. Plumber: $100 an hour. They can charge this amount for just coming out.

4. A realtor: The real estate market is hot now, so assuming you work in upper middle class markets, they can make 6 figures easy. Still a lot of effort and experience goes into it.

5. Tiles and flooring: $500-1,000 a day. Kitchen backsplash, shower tiles, you name it... these guys can make a killing at the right markets.

6. Franchisees: I already mentioned this, after the investment requirements are met, it can roll in good 6 figures plus income.

7. A locksmith: Don't get me started. These guys should be ashamed of themselves of what they charge when they help you to get back into your house.

The point is, all of the above professions don't go through the stress and sweat of school like we did/do, and they certainly don't carry huge student loans debts, and more importantly... a huge junk of those guys get paid in cash, and pay much less taxes that they should.

Dentists carry $500k in loans, dental insurances not keeping up with inflation, working for corporations, it's all adding up to a bad investment for many future doctors.
 
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Its been worth it to us. I think the key is coming up with and following through with a plan to how you are going to manage repayment. There are several different strategies including income based repayment. We are paying ours off on our own. We are living like students for a few more years and got into a practice in the midwest (cost of living is cheap, lots of patients). We wrote out our story here http://www.redtwogreen.com/our-student-loan-debt-story/ and our plan to get out of debt here http://www.redtwogreen.com/rethinking-our-repayment-plan/
 

Cold Front

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Really? Looking to do a post bacc(Not SMP). Is it easy to get loans?
Yes, it is easy. There are limits on how much you borrow, but to actually qualify for the loans is relatively very easy - just get into the program, the loans will happen by default. No collateral needed, and in most cases a blank check policy by the government.
 
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You know it just hit me, I know debt sucks. Say you do end up with 400k plus interest after all. Is it a big deal to just make payments across 10-15 or even 20 years? I mean making 120k is very reasonable as a dentist, so what is the big deal making payments small enough to disperse across a decade or a decade and a half (besides being in "debt" for that long). I never really thought about it from this point of view. In my head, I was planning on paying 80,000$ a year towards my debt leaving VERY little for myself. My parents didn't buy their house with cash, and I am sure yours did not either. People take 30 year mortgages all the time, and in the city I live in, a 400k mortgage wouldn't even be out of the ordinary. Interest will accrue significantly as opposed to paying it in 7-8 years, I know this. But is it really worth living like a dog for 7-8 years while you can *moderately* enjoy life with a low amount of stress by having longer, smaller loan payments?
 

Cold Front

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You know it just hit me, I know debt sucks. Say you do end up with 400k plus interest after all. Is it a big deal to just make payments across 10-15 or even 20 years? I mean making 120k is very reasonable as a dentist, so what is the big deal making payments small enough to disperse across a decade or a decade and a half (besides being in "debt" for that long). I never really thought about it from this point of view. In my head, I was planning on paying 80,000$ a year towards my debt leaving VERY little for myself. My parents didn't buy their house with cash, and I am sure yours did not either. People take 30 year mortgages all the time, and in the city I live in, a 400k mortgage wouldn't even be out of the ordinary. Interest will accrue significantly as opposed to paying it in 7-8 years, I know this. But is it really worth living like a dog for 7-8 years while you can *moderately* enjoy life with a low amount of stress by having longer, smaller loan payments?
Couple of interesting facts to help you understand your dilemma better:

1. The % of your monthly post tax income (say $8k a month initially) to student loans (for $400k debt - assuming not other loans and interest) will be about 35-40% (or about $2,500 a month) using the 25 years graduate repayment plan option. Yes, you will make more income some day and reduce that % down to maybe 20% in 5 years. By then, life changed on you; you could be married with kids, or still single and have a more expensive lifestyle than when you graduated. So you could still be stretched out thin from paycheck to paycheck. Consider not getting into $400k debt to begin with.

2. Yes, people take 30 years mortgage all the time, but did you know most people don't live in the same house for 30 years? Specially for most doctors, the national average is about 5 years (according to my mortgage lender). So you can always sell that home with 30 years mortgage anytime and pay off the debt, but you can never sell you dental diploma and pay off your student loans. Consider not getting into $400k to begin with.

3. "Is it really worth living like a dog for 7-8 years?". It depends on how serious you are about the potential headaches of $400k debt. Apply to cheaper school, and cut that 7-8 years to maybe 2-3 years of living like a student to pay off your debt. It can be done.
 
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Incis0r

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3. "Is it really worth living like a dog for 7-8 years?". It depends on how serious you are about the potential headaches of $400k debt. Apply to cheaper school, and cut that 7-8 years to maybe 2-3 years of living like a student to pay off your debt. It can be done.
How much debt do you think can be paid off in 2-3 yrs of living like a student?
 

Cold Front

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How much debt do you think can be paid off in 2-3 yrs of living like a student?
I would say if you are in about $200k in debt. You could live with your parents or family member to save a lot of personal expenses and live on $3-4K of your post tax income a month (which is what Medical residents get paid), and pay $5-6k a month towards your student loans for 3 years. That's 36 payments of $5-6k, a total of $180-216k. It's not easy, but doable for the most serious person.
 

Incis0r

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I would say if you are in about $200k in debt. You could live with your parents or family member to save a lot of personal expenses and live on $3-4K of your post tax income a month (which is what Medical residents get paid), and pay $5-6k a month towards your student loans for 3 years. That's 36 payments of $5-6k, a total of $180-216k. It's not easy, but doable for the most serious person.
Can a new dentist really make $10K/month ($120K/yr) after taxes? That's like $150-160K/yr pre-tax.
 
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Couple of interesting facts to help you understand your dilemma better:

1. The % of your monthly post tax income (say $8k a month initially) to student loans (for $400k debt - assuming not other loans and interest) will be about 35-40% (or about $2,500 a month) using the 25 years graduate repayment plan option. Yes, you will make more income some day and reduce that % down to maybe 20% in 5 years. By then, life changed on you; you could be married with kids, or still single and have a more expensive lifestyle than when you graduated. So you could still be stretched out thin from paycheck to paycheck. Consider not getting into $400k debt to begin with.

2. Yes, people take 30 years mortgage all the time, but did you know most people don't live in the same house for 30 years? Specially for most doctors, the national average is about 5 years (according to my mortgage lender). So you can always sell that home with 30 years mortgage anytime and pay off the debt, but you can never sell you dental diploma and pay off your student loans. Consider not getting into $400k to begin with.

3. "Is it really worth living like a dog for 7-8 years?". It depends on how serious you are about the potential headaches of $400k debt. Apply to cheaper school, and cut that 7-8 years to maybe 2-3 years of living like a student to pay off your debt. It can be done.
Woah that is so true! I never factored in having a wife or kids, hell what about the payments on my brand new M6 (sarcasm, I want a used one ;)).

For point 2, they DO end up moving somewhere else though, so that payment will always be there, whether it is smaller or larger.

For point 3, I don't know if I will be able to get into my state school at this point. All the schools I have looked at are around 100k a year after living. HOWEVER, I do live *nearby* a school so I would just need to pay for tuition and fees, instead of living expenses. Do you think a 40 minute commute is doable for dental school?
 

schmoob

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Woah that is so true! I never factored in having a wife or kids, hell what about the payments on my brand new M6 (sarcasm, I want a used one ;)).

For point 2, they DO end up moving somewhere else though, so that payment will always be there, whether it is smaller or larger.

For point 3, I don't know if I will be able to get into my state school at this point. All the schools I have looked at are around 100k a year after living. HOWEVER, I do live *nearby* a school so I would just need to pay for tuition and fees, instead of living expenses. Do you think a 40 minute commute is doable for dental school?
Yes, especially when you aren't paying for living expenses.
 
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Cold Front

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Woah that is so true! I never factored in having a wife or kids, hell what about the payments on my brand new M6 (sarcasm, I want a used one ;)).

For point 2, they DO end up moving somewhere else though, so that payment will always be there, whether it is smaller or larger.

For point 3, I don't know if I will be able to get into my state school at this point. All the schools I have looked at are around 100k a year after living. HOWEVER, I do live *nearby* a school so I would just need to pay for tuition and fees, instead of living expenses. Do you think a 40 minute commute is doable for dental school?
Yes. Commute.
 
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Can a new dentist really make $10K/month ($120K/yr) after taxes? That's like $150-160K/yr pre-tax.
For sure! But obviously it depends on several variables such as, are you willing to live in an underserved area but where people are still willing to visit the dentist? The midwest is great for dentists, but its not everyone's cup of tea to live here. Also depends on what kind of job you take-- corporate, associate, etc. Also depends on how quickly you can perform and getting patients to say yes to procedures they need and what % you are earning.
 
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Incis0r

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For sure! But obviously it depends on several variables such as, are you willing to live in an underserved area but where people are still willing to visit the dentist? The midwest is great for dentists, but its not everyone's cup of tea to live here. Also depends on what kind of job you take-- corporate, associate, etc. Also depends on how quickly you can perform and getting patients to say yes to procedures they need and what % you are earning.
Thank you for replying to my question.
You seem like nice and helpful people - What's the web address for your blog? I'd like to become a regular reader.
 

MBOMFS

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Woah that is so true! I never factored in having a wife or kids, hell what about the payments on my brand new M6 (sarcasm, I want a used one ;)).

For point 2, they DO end up moving somewhere else though, so that payment will always be there, whether it is smaller or larger.

For point 3, I don't know if I will be able to get into my state school at this point. All the schools I have looked at are around 100k a year after living. HOWEVER, I do live *nearby* a school so I would just need to pay for tuition and fees, instead of living expenses. Do you think a 40 minute commute is doable for dental school?
40 minute commute is definitely doable. I have an hour and a half commute to dental school and it has not been a problem.
 
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40 minute commute is definitely doable. I have an hour and a half commute to dental school and it has not been a problem.
Insane!! What school do you go to, and how exhausted do you find yourself after long days of studying or lab stuff after commuting?
 
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