Is DO really equal????NOT

[dmuoruhs]

Ok I'm pissed. I just called the U. of Iowa Hospitals and Clinics to find out if they'd let me do my elective rotations here when I went to DO school...guess what...NO. Apparently rotations here are only for LCME approved programs, even though they have about 6 DOs in their IM fellowship program. The lady in fact copped out an attitude when she found out I was a DO student...If this happens in a state where Ostopathy is supposedly very popular, I'd shudder to think what happens elsewhere...I guess we aren't equal yet...

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[Teufelhunden]

Okay, I'll bite. How many of these posts do we have to go through? Again, the ONLY people who care about this damned M.D. vs. D.O. debate are premeds, MS-1's and 2's. But, as far as rotation opportunities go, there are a handful of D.O. students here at the Mayo Clinic doing a wide array of rotations. The same goes for residents. A friend of mine here went on Neuro rounds with residents and said there were 2 or 3 D.O.'s in the group. So listen, aspiring D.O.'s, don't let all these negative posts get you down. We will all *ultimately* be judged on our clinical abilities, compassion towards patients, communication skills, etc...not on which letters come after our names.

------------------
"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

 

[dmuoruhs]

Ok...I don't get your post at all...you talk about how programs treat DO students the same and I have just gotten done telling you how I was just told I couldn't rotate because I was not an MD student...therefore the venting and anger. Please read what is written before you shoot your mouth off...I am a future DO student and not trying to put the profession down, just sharing my opinion after all the talk I had heard about the equality of the two to health care professionals and administrators

 

[UHS2002]

Well, I just can tell you that you went the wrong way about it. For one, you probably talked to some secretary that doesn't know her a-- from a hole in the ground. When you set up your electives, you get the approval of the dept. you are going to be rotating through, and each dept. has a different policy about accepting MS3s or MS4s, requiring certain rotations as pre-recs and so forth. As a MS3, I get mail every day from allopathic programs about both their elective rotations and their residency programs. I haven't solicited this info myself. I have a truly terrific surgical elective coming up at an allopathic program and I found out about this particular opportunity only because they sent me their brochure in the mail.

 

[dmuoruhs]

I understand what you are saying UHS2002, but I actually spoke with the clerkship coordiantor from the dean's office. While I agree many allopathic programs accept potential D.O.s with open arms, this lady specifically mentioned that there was no way I could do it...she did mention that I could go to their affiliated hospital (allopathic) in Des Moines, just not at the UIHC. As one of the largest teaching hospitals in the country, I just think that they have a very crappy attitude toward DOs...only accept LCME students

 

[Leotigers]

Originally posted by Teufelhunden:
Okay, I'll bite. How many of these posts do we have to go through? Again, the ONLY people who care about this damned M.D. vs. D.O. debate are premeds, MS-1's and 2's. But, as far as rotation opportunities go, there are a handful of D.O. students here at the Mayo Clinic doing a wide array of rotations. The same goes for residents. A friend of mine here went on Neuro rounds with residents and said there were 2 or 3 D.O.'s in the group. So listen, aspiring D.O.'s, don't let all these negative posts get you down. We will all *ultimately* be judged on our clinical abilities, compassion towards patients, communication skills, etc...not on which letters come after our names.

dmuoruhs,

What was wrong with this post? Why were you so upset at his comments? I would add that we will also be judged by professionalism as well. He was just trying to help. If you called me up with that attitude, I probably wouldn't let you rotate through the hospital either.

 

[dmuoruhs]

Leotigers, I'm not trying to start an arguement, but just for your pleasure, read this statement from Teufelhunden:

"Okay, I'll bite. How many of these posts do we have to go through? Again, the ONLY people who care about this damned M.D. vs. D.O. debate are premeds, MS-1's and 2's."

My only beef was that while I was trying to factually report an instance where institutionalized discriminatory attitude existed, I was being told that only MS-1's and 2's care about the MD vs. DO thing...that's just what I disproved...and that is the standard spiel I've heard from everyone on these forums...discrimination does exist my friend, whether you want to accept it or hide in a make-believe bubble of equality...

As for my attitude, I don't think I did anything wrong, and I'm hoping there aren't more people like you judging attitude by what's written in two messages on an internet forum...that doesen't really speak volumes for your ability to realistically analyze issues. You have no clue how I dealt with the lady on the phone.I have received a Ph.D. from this University, and I know the college of medicine administrators and staff pretty well...trust me, if they had a problem with my attitude, I would not have been offered a spot here. If I may have come off as angry, well I probably am at the snotty behavior of this University's MD program (that I incidentally rejected the offer from), but other than that I am frustrated with the ability of people to understatnd that not ALL, but SOME programs DO DISCRIMINATE between MD and DO students. Other than that, I hope you have nice day and refrain from making character judgements based on this forum...doing so is insulting to my intelligence and yours. Peace out.

 

[dmuoruhs]

I would like to reiterate that this was not intended to be a slam on DOs or anyone in particular...only the facts...so please use your analytical skill that MD or DO school are going to utilize and comprehend that fact. I have not slammed anyone's ideas, so don't slam mine...other than that, I am hoping all of you enjoy being in the hospital as much as I have and be the best physicians you can be, be it MD or DO. For all you future DO colleagues of mine, lets remember the DO philosopy as we live out our professional lives and make more people aware of its soundness...so one day no one can post about being treated differently for having an osteopathic education. Peace and Good Tidings to you...

 

[Test Boy]

I have a similar story. Actually, a classmate of mine wanted to set up an elective at Cornell. But when the secretary found out she was a DO student, she also copped an attitude and said they don't accept DO students. I can understand why dmuoruhs was frustrated.

 

[Teufelhunden]

dmuoruhs,
You're right, my opening sentence was a bit hostile, and for that I apoligize. You were just making an observation of fact.
You have to admit though, at times it just gets frustrating seeing these 'Is DO really equal????NOT'-type threads every day.

 

[cjw0918]

I just wanted to point out that both of the incidents mentioned concerning DO students being denied clinical opportunities concern secretaries. Secretaries, for the most part, are not the most highly educated people. Often times, they merely reflect something they have heard somewhere but don't really know what it means. I would suggest to any DO getting static from a secretary about doing a clinical, ask to speak to someone else. At the very least, get an e-mail address of someone a little more in the know. Let the director himself tell you that they don't accept DO's. Don't listen to the secretary- they don't necessarily know all. But everyone has to feel important you know, and sometimes (unfortunately) that includes devaluing others to make yourself feel better. Just my take...

 

[dmuoruhs]

Actually, th U. of Iowa does have a no DO rotation policy...I work with a gyn-oncologist and he checked with his department head...only LCME approved students. Sad thing is that I could be in an absolutely crappy MD program and still rotate through there.

Teufelhunden...no problem whatsoever

...like you mentioned, I only wanted to present some facts and situations that will affect me, and maybe some others...but at least in the case of the University of Iowa, it is a cold hard fact...Peace and cheers.

 

[tiffsatt]

Just felt like adding my two cents also. Being from Michigan, it doesn't matter what letters you have behind your name because DO's are welcome with open arms usually. However, while doing my undergrad, my advisors were adamant about the fact that if I decided to live somewhere else in the country, that my DO instead of MD initials may hold me back. Whether this is true or not, I suppose I will find out because I will be attending an osteopathic medical school this fall. I am completely satisfied with my decision, and I think the negativity towards DO's comes from a misconception about our education. Although, I do agree that there are people who look down there noses at DO's, I think that tends to be the exception rather than the rule! Bottom line, in my opinion, you're as good as what you put in, so don't let a secretary or anyone else for that matter let you feel any different!

TJ

 

[muonwhiz]

Originally posted by UHS2002:
Well, I just can tell you that you went the wrong way about it. For one, you probably talked to some secretary that doesn't know her a-- from a hole in the ground. When you set up your electives, you get the approval of the dept. you are going to be rotating through, and each dept. has a different policy about accepting MS3s or MS4s, requiring certain rotations as pre-recs and so forth. As a MS3, I get mail every day from allopathic programs about both their elective rotations and their residency programs. I haven't solicited this info myself. I have a truly terrific surgical elective coming up at an allopathic program and I found out about this particular opportunity only because they sent me their brochure in the mail.

---------------------------------------------
How did you get all of this valuable info about rotation and residency info? Did your classmates get this info also without having to in some way register? I want to be sure that I'm in on the info, so fill me in!

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[hankhill]

You are asking some good questions dmuoruhs. I would like to help with the DMU or UHS question. I had the EXACT same dilemma last year. I chose DMU, and it was a mistake. I can't vouch for the quality of education at UHS because I didn't attend school there, but I can vouch for the lack of quality at DMU. If you want my opinion on equivalence of DO's and MD's as far as trainging, it is in this order. State supported DO programs are more equivalent to allopathic programs than private DO programs like DMU. There ARE exceptions, but as a whole I believe that if you go DO you have better chances of getting a good education from a state supported program. DMU's motto on education is "its what you make of it". Great excuse for a poor product. If you can't get accepted anywhere else, then come to DMU and make the best of it. If you get accepted elsewhere, I highly recommend going there.

This does not really answer your question about the rotation, but I hope you find the information valuable.


hankhill

 

[muonwhiz]

hankill--
please give me more info about what makes you have dissatisfaction with DMU. I need specific details of the school's weaknesses, as I may have to make a decision about it soon. You can email me at [email protected]
Thanks for any info, as I need to have a balanced approach with this.

 

[hankhill]

Check out my post at http://www.studentdoctor.net/bbs/Forum5/HTML/001242-2.html

If you want to know more, I will be glad to talk with you after next week, but until then I will be unable to speak with you.

hankhill

 

[kidterrific]

Most state supported schools want you to stay there and practice rural medicine with a golden retriever. If you want to work in the boonies, then go there and be happy.

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KidT
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by kidterrific (edited 03-04-2001).]

 

[Freeeedom!]

Now, do they give you the golden retriever for free or do you have to go to a puppy mill and find your own?

 

[kidterrific]

Nah - pooches like that never die. You get them from the doctor whose practice you buy. Along with all the polaroids of babies delivered in the back office.

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--
KidT
[email protected]

 

[jdaasbo]

Hi there,

try this. Ask for this secretary at Iowa or wherever to send you to you a written statement indicating that they do not accept DO students. Send this to the AOA. I have heard of a few cases where this happened and the AOA actually took the institution to court for discrimination. The AOA gets a lot of criticism, but legal issues and fighting for practice/opportunity rights for DOs is one area in which they are superb. Send it to John Crosby himself if you want.

What have you got to loose? If this person at Iowa asks you why you want this letter, then tell her exactly.

Don't get mad, get even.

Johan
CCOM class of 2002.

PS- i have never had any program cop any attitude when inquiring applying for an ACGME residency as a DO. I have seen many places a lot more prestigious than Iowa U. go out of their way to include in their catalogs info about how DOs can apply.

 

[turtleboard]

So the original poster gets the letter, has the AOA sue, and then goes to Iowa hoping to get a good letter of recommendation? While the advancement of the profession is not in question, the student's progress is. I wouldn't suggest anyone in medicine to make a martyr of himself.

One thing I've learned about medicine is that when you make enemies, you make them for life.


W.

 

[ewagner]

Ya know...Indiana University has the same policy...but guess what, I'm going there in september. I simply filled out my application and sent the necessary forms.
They then emailed me stating that September should not be a problem.
So just apply and let them deny you an externship AFTER you have sent your forms...but they won't anyway.

 

[hankhill]

Posted by kidt:Most state supported schools want you to stay there and practice rural
medicine with a golden retriever. If you want to work in the boonies, then go there
and be happy.

Reply: Yeah, they want you to stay there and practice rural, primary care medicine, but they do not and can not require you to do so (unless you are an out of state applicant and you sign a contract requiring you to practice in a rural area for a specified amount of time). If you are a state resident, why not go to the state school
and get a higher quality education (compared to DMU) and then choose to practice
whereever you want? This is just a hypothetical question kidt. I could really care less where you get your education. This is just for the sake of argueing and defending my previous post.

Posted by Freedom:Now, do they give you the golden retriever for free or do you have to go to a puppy mill and find your own?

Reply:At DMU, we are given our retriever in the 2nd year. We do all sorts of interesting
things with them too. We cut their nipples off and sew them back on, give them lethal
injections of drugs, start and stop their hearts, play a little more with them and then give them a final, fatal dose of drugs. We get these dogs from the Des Moines city pound, not a puppy mill. According to kidt, ?pooches like that never die?. Well, I have to say that through some ground breaking research here at DMU, we have come up with a way to demonstrate that pooches like that can and will always die. Year after year after year after year we kill em?.

hankhill

 

[muonwhiz]

I have heard that those students who are morally opposed to participating in dog labs can do a computer simulated exercise instead. True or false?

 

[hankhill]

We were told that there is an alternative, but I cannot confirm if it is computerized or not. For a detailed debate of the dog labs, you can go to the following link:

http://www.studentdoctor.net/bbs/Forum3/HTML/001621.html

 

[rkal]

I'm a 4th year osteopathic student, graduating in 2 months and 9 days (Wahoo!). I recently experienced "DO descrimination" with regard to residency selection committees.

I e-mailed a friend of a friend who is the chief resident at a program I ranked #2. I asked him what he thought of my chances of getting in there, and he said, "Well, it comes down to their algorithm. They take American MDs first, then DOs with high board scores, then FMGs with high board scores. In that order." So there you have it. This guy has friends on the selection committee, so he has insider scoop. I don't know how many programs use an algorithm like this one, but we know at least one does!

The good news is, I got a call from this program a few weeks ago, and they told me that they ranked me at the top of their list, so if I don't get my 1st choice, at least I know I'll be happy there. I'll find out in 13 days...Match Day is March 22nd.

And by the way, I think the issue of MDs getting preference in residency selection has more to do with fear of the unknown than anything else. I think once these programs get a few EXCELLENT DO residents, things will change. Hope so anyway.

 

[sidebentleft]

KidTerrific-
you have got you data wrong re: primary care. Most state schools have much lower percentages of their grads entering primary care than do most of your private DO schools.

 

[muonwhiz]

Thanks for providing the info re dog labs, hankhill. I agree with you. have two dobes and there is no way I will ever participate in one of those labs.

 

[kidterrific]

Of the two state schools I looked up, I have different data regarding the whole primary care thing. MSU-COM is such a push in primary care, that they rank 8th in the nation, and OSU-COM (Tulsa, OK) got upset when I told them I wanted to return to Detroit after my fourth year. I was posting an opinion that hankhill had regarding the whole 'go to state school' argument. The only problem is, if you don't live in a state with a state DO school, then what can you do? Your chances are hurt from the get-go.

And, hank, on a personal note - let me just tell you that your vendetta against DMU doesn't go unnoticed. If you continue to bad mouth DMU constantly in EVERY post you put up, people will stop taking you seriously, consider this a personal thing, and never get your point. You should seriously try to just make your point, and then end it. I was honestly considering what you had to say way back in October, but since you seem to constatnly gripe about the same old ballyhoo, your complaints are losing their validity.



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--
KidT
[email protected]

 

[rtk]

Hank;

I've avoided replying to your posts in the past, but since your posts bashing DMU are all-over this site, I had to respond. What is your agenda? Are you trying to impart change at DMU? (your technique of bashing your school to a bunch of pre-med and medical students isn't going to change anything). Or are you taking a paternal role and trying to bestow some of your worldly knowledge (as a MS-1 or MS-2) upon the less informed younger generation of physicians...?

I'm an alumni of DMU (formally UOMHS). I can't imagine thing's have changed dramatically in 4 years. Hank, there were a few people in my class that had an attitude similar to yours. They made a lot of noise, but didn't do much to change things (maybe you're trying, but this isn't the way to go about it). I had another classmate who took a different approach. He started the 'phon-a-thon' campaign. There was little to no alumni financial support for DMU prior to this being established and now there's several million established for scholarship and fisical stability. He also established a curriculum review committee to address several of the issues you're griping about (it worked well for our class...). My point is, there are ways to address adversity and your technique won't work. In fact, your technique of bashing your school to impressionable pre-medical students couldn't possibly improve your lot and could, quite possibly, make things worse at DMU.

Take personal responsability for your education. You'll find you're given all the tools you need at DMU to do well. Believe it or not, DMU takes a more hands-on approach to medical education than many other institutions, but you're still not going to be spoon fed. You'll learn that medical education is an on-going process and you must learn that it is your initiative that's gonna make you stay up-to-date with medical literature when your training in medical school and residency is long past... Have you taken Step I yet? If you've done well in your courses, you'll find Step I a breeze. Your preparation for the boards is excellent at DMU and you'll find the systems curriculum is great part of your board preparation (FYI: DMU was one of the first med schools in the country to adopt the systems curiculum and now several others have followed suit, including the U of I). More importantly, you'll find your knowledge base is as strong or stronger than other med students when you go out on rotations. And I'd say the ultimate test of your training at DMU will be residency. I can only speak from personal experience, but I was as well prepared as any resident in our program. Maybe that's why I'm now chief resident and I'll be going onto Cardiology Fellowship next year.

As an aside, there are several less-than-desirable difficulites facing the students and residents here and at every institution I've rotated through or known through friends in other programs. (i.e: adversity is everywhere...)

Hank, there aren't many certainties in life, but the inevitable adversity is one of them. I'll guarantee you'll see greater adversity than what you have now (and you haven't even been out on rotations yet, let alone internship/residency). Believe me, how you learn to deal with difficulties now will have an impact on your future success.

 

[MTY]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by rkal:


And by the way, I think the issue of MDs getting preference in residency selection has more to do with fear of the unknown than anything else. I think once these programs get a few EXCELLENT DO residents, things will change. Hope so anyway.


•

THERE YOU GO RKAL!! THAT'S THE ATTITUDE WE SHOULD HAVE AS DO DOCTORS. I WAS ACCEPTED TO BOTH ALL AND OSTEO, BUT I CHOSE THE DO PATHWAY. I AM READY TO SHOW THEM OUR CAPABILITY AND COMPETENCE OF BEING A DO. TIME TO CHANGE THAT WRONGFUL PERCEPTION OF DO. ARE YOU ALL WITH ME?!!

 

[Piyo]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by MTY:

THERE YOU GO RKAL!! THAT'S THE ATTITUDE WE SHOULD HAVE AS DO DOCTORS. I WAS ACCEPTED TO BOTH ALL AND OSTEO, BUT I CHOSE THE DO PATHWAY. I AM READY TO SHOW THEM OUR CAPABILITY AND COMPETENCE OF BEING A DO. TIME TO CHANGE THAT WRONGFUL PERCEPTION OF DO. ARE YOU ALL WITH ME?!!•

MTY, I have several friends from UC Berkeley and Stanford that have decided to go to TUCOM rather than to an out-of-state Allopathic School. Which school did you decide to attend?

I think what Rkal says is true. In CA, there is not a lot of exposure to Osteopathic Medicine. I think TUCOM helped to change the perception just by giving others exposure to DOs. TUCOM has a good reputation in the Bay Area because many students have rotated through our hospitals. One of the Cardiology professors at Stanford(D.O.) also teaches Cardiology at TUCOM. Good luck.

Piyo

 

[MTY]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by Piyo:
MTY, I have several friends from UC Berkeley and Stanford that have decided to go to TUCOM rather than to an out-of-state Allopathic School. Which school did you decide to attend?

I think what Rkal says is true. In CA, there is not a lot of exposure to Osteopathic Medicine. I think TUCOM helped to change the perception just by giving others exposure to DOs. TUCOM has a good reputation in the Bay Area because many students have rotated through our hospitals. One of the Cardiology professors at Stanford(D.O.) also teaches Cardiology at TUCOM. Good luck.

Piyo

•

Hey piyo,
i interviewed at chicago med, loma linda, tucom and western. i got accepted to chicago med, tucom, and western. i have not heard anything from loma linda. i assume it was because of my pork-bun breath which i got from chinatown plus my morning coffee which slimmed my chance of becoming a pious 7th day adventist. j/k
enough jubblish, i chose tucom cuz i feel i will be happy here. being close to my family in the bay area, living in a diversified community plus the school's great potential in the future, i know i'm making the right decision.
piyo, are you also from the bay area? are u applying this year?



[This message has been edited by MTY (edited 03-12-2001).]

 

[Piyo]

MTY, why did you re-post my message?

 

[MTY]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by Piyo:
MTY, why did you re-post my message?

•

hehe, call me a computer illiterate. i clicked on the wrong button. oops.

 

[Piyo]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by MTY:
Hey piyo,
i interviewed at chicago med, loma linda, tucom and western. i got accepted to chicago med, tucom, and western. i have not heard anything from loma linda. i assume it was because of my pork-bun breath which i got from chinatown plus my morning coffee which slimmed my chance of becoming a pious 7th day adventist. j/k
enough jubblish, i chose tucom cuz i feel i will be happy here. being close to my family in the bay area, living in a diversified community plus the school's great potential in the future, i know i'm making the right decision.
piyo, are you also from the bay area? are u applying this year? •

I already applied. I've been accepted to MD/JD/DO schools. I'm leaning towards getting a MD/JD because there are combined programs that eliminate one year. I would have no hesitation going to a DO school. The only one I applied to was TUCOM. I would prefer to be in the Bay Area rather than Pomona. Plus, I think the academic envirnoment up here is better than in Pomona. If I didn't do a MD/JD, I would go UC due to tuition costs. I wouldn't leave California just for medical school, especially since TUCOM is in the Bay Area. The MD/JD programs are outside of CA. Some allow for in-state tuition and pretty much allow me to go for free if I teach.

I haven't decided for sure yet. I have a lot of things to think about over the next month. I still haven't heard from one of the combined programs either. BTW, I didn't apply to Loma Linda. I wouldn't feel comfortable attending a school whose philosophy was so different from my own.

Pork bun and coffee, eh? That's funny, sounds like my breakfast this morning. I have these amusing images in my mind of you Loma Linda interview. Perhaps you are on the wait-list because you were interviewed by a Vegan.

Let me know if you are interested in roommates. I have some friends from Berkeley and Stanford who are attending TUCOM next year. Sorry, all guys. J/K.

 

[MTY]

Piyo,
what can i offer to convince you to stay in cali and attend tucom? how about a box of pork buns and tapioca, nah, bad combo. what about stinky tofu? and i mean really 'stinky' tofu.

i think it will be great if you can attend tucom, because i know you can contribute to our class and bring a better success to tucom.

in terms of living arrangement, i was wondering if i can camp out on mare island for the first two years, then moved back to s.f. for my clinical rotation, that should really save me some money. actually, i will start a post on 'roomates wanted' for tucom.
p.s. ever had the super hot pot in palo alto or mountain view?

[This message has been edited by MTY (edited 03-12-2001).]

 

[muonwhiz]

Thanks for the info about DMU, rtk! There are too many initials in that sentence! I interviewed there and the people seemed to be especially friendly. The admissions office people were totally outstanding. Most admissions offices treat applicants rudely and with little better than contempt, but the DMU office is a complete reversal from that. Oh well, I only got wait listed there so it's questionable as to whether I'll ever be an alum, but your message was appreciated.

 

[Piyo]

MTY

How did you know I was Taiwanese? I'm not really that fond of Chou Dofu. I prefer Bi-Ko but I do like the Tapioca drink. Most of my friends are not Taiwanese so I haven't really been to Mountain View for the Hot Pot.

Regarding TUCOM, if you can make me one year younger, I'm there.

The joint MD/JD program is six years. It does sound attractive to stay in Northern California. I'm sure we'll bump into each other because I know people attending next year. Have fun.

Piyo Piyo

 

[jsdmu]

I am a student at DMU and because I really don't want to stay in Iowa... I have started visiting programs to do my 3rd and 4th year. D.O. fiendly sites: U of Arizona, U of Nebraska, and U of Colorado. At all three, I have found D.O.'s in every area of specialty that are willing to take me on. When looking for a site, find their D.O.'s... contact them first and they will give you the right information to circumvent (sp?) any problems that you may have. Medicine and politics go hand in hand, learn that lesson now and learn how to play the game... it will make for a much more enjoyable life. The three programs I listed are also growing very fast, so they consistently have problems finding qualified students to support them and are happy to have more people around to help them out.