Is getting a 32+ as hard as they say?

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passionformed

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Some people on SDN say that they know people with 3.8+ who cannot break 32. Why is this? Is it truly a test of intelligence or is very possible to break 32 with adequate preparation (using the right books, studying for 3 months using the SDN guide, etc.)?

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Some people on SDN say that they know people with 3.8+ who cannot break 32. Why is this? Is it truly a test of intelligence or is very possible to break 32 with adequate preparation (using the right books, studying for 3 months using the SDN guide, etc.)?

It is not a matter of intelligence. It is a matter of understanding the test and is very doable. Just because someone has 3.8+ doesn't mean they understand what is required to excel on this test. It is not your college-class test. This requires integration of what you know with what is presented on the test. Sometimes it can hurt you to know more than you do and what is given on the test.

Just do well on your classes and practice practice practice - same logic as any other test - just a different kind of test - no magic needed

Good Luck!
 
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Only ~15% of test-takers get a 32 or better. That would indicate to me that it is difficult for the majority of test-takers.

Whether or not it will be hard for you is a completely different subject.
 
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Some people on SDN say that they know people with 3.8+ who cannot break 32. Why is this? Is it truly a test of intelligence or is very possible to break 32 with adequate preparation (using the right books, studying for 3 months using the SDN guide, etc.)?

Also we don't really know where all these dudes go to school....

for instance a 3.8 at a community college and can't break 32 is understandable as opposed to a 3.8 at a top 25 school who can't break 32.

If you go to a top college and can get a 3.8, you can definitely crush the MCAT (most of my friends have 3.6-3.8 and they all have gotten scores in the 32-39 range quite easily just because my school prepares us well and they studied ball out for their MCAT)

so yeah, it's a true test of intelligence but then again intelligence can be gained through hard work, so adequately prepare (work hard) and you will be smarter (from working hard) and you'll do well (because you worked hard).... there is no such thing as intelligence, it's all gained through hard work (sure there are some super geniuses who study very little for tests and crush them, but I can assure you they worked their butt off at some point in their life to get to that level of intelligence....)
 
Also we don't really know where all these dudes go to school....

for instance a 3.8 at a community college and can't break 32 is understandable as opposed to a 3.8 at a top 25 school who can't break 32.

If you go to a top college and can get a 3.8, you can definitely crush the MCAT (most of my friends have 3.6-3.8 and they all have gotten scores in the 32-39 range quite easily just because my school prepares us well and they studied ball out for their MCAT)

so yeah, it's a true test of intelligence but then again intelligence can be gained through hard work, so adequately prepare (work hard) and you will be smarter (from working hard) and you'll do well (because you worked hard).... there is no such thing as intelligence, it's all gained through hard work (sure there are some super geniuses who study very little for tests and crush them, but I can assure you they worked their butt off at some point in their life to get to that level of intelligence....)

1) 32-39 is a HUGE range.
2) I don't think you know what "intelligence" means.


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yeah 32-39 is a fairly big range, I consider 36+ all the same though ( 1-2 question difference in each section once you hit 12+).

Except that the most likely questions missed are the difficult ones, so attributing every point difference there to luck just seems like a cop out to me. So there's only a couple questions difference between two scores, does that mean those questions don't reflect a difference in the ability of the scorers? Of course not, why wouldn't they? Someone who scores a 43 is clearly outperforming someone who scores a 36, I don't care how few questions it took them to get those extra 7 points. Those hard questions are significant because they're hard.


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imo...Subjective crap threads like this just clogs up SDN and derails people from answering more important MCAT related questions.
 
Except that the most likely questions missed are the difficult ones, so attributing every point difference there to luck just seems like a cop out to me. So there's only a couple questions difference between two scores, does that mean those questions don't reflect a difference in the ability of the scorers? Of course not, why wouldn't they? Someone who scores a 43 is clearly outperforming someone who scores a 36, I don't care how few questions it took them to get those extra 7 points. Those hard questions are significant because they're hard.


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I see where your coming from, but I think it also comes down to some luck (i.e. strength of topics in certain subjects) after a certain point...yes there are people who are experts on all topics that can nail a 40+ but there aren't very many out there that can do that. For example I can get a test where I am tested on all of my "weaker" topics in physics whereas you can get a test where you have PS topics you feel super comfortable with. Also VR is a super flawed section that is way to sensitive too scoring, so guessing those 2-3 questions correctly or completely flopping passage makes a huge difference.
 
1) 32-39 is a HUGE range.
2) I don't think you know what "intelligence" means.


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1. 3.6-3.9 is a HUGE range too so I suppose 32-39 is quite appropriate (well at my school it is at least. And by friends, I mean 20-30 people I know who have disclosed both their mcat sore and gpa as well as the fact that they are currently in med school...lol

2. I think your idea of intelligence is based off the concept that intelligence is something you're born with and can't gain. I took a neuroscience course on learning and memory, and we read plenty of literature that proves quite the opposite. Intelligence is not definite, you can definitely gain "intelligence" through hard work.
 
I see where your coming from, but I think it also comes down to some luck (i.e. strength of topics in certain subjects) after a certain point...yes there are people who are experts on all topics that can nail a 40+ but there aren't very many out there that can do that. For example I can get a test where I am tested on all of my "weaker" topics in physics whereas you can get a test where you have PS topics you feel super comfortable with. Also VR is a super flawed section that is way to sensitive too scoring, so guessing those 2-3 questions correctly or completely flopping passage makes a huge difference.

I will 100% agree that luck plays a role in that people absolutely do get passages that happen to play to their particular strengths or weaknesses. At the same time, I've seen people quite often try to extrapolate this to "it's all luck based on the passages you get so anything above a 35/38/whatever arbitrary cutoff is just luck" implying that scoring higher isn't reflective of skill just because they themselves couldn't do it. I think that a load of crap because people fail to prepare properly and know ALL of the material to the extent that they should.

I even disagree about verbal, there are people who can consistently score 14-15 on VR. It's not some horribly flawed section, it's just hard AND on top of that like you said it's only 40 questions.


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1. 3.6-3.9 is a HUGE range too so I suppose 32-39 is quite appropriate (well at my school it is at least. And by friends, I mean 20-30 people I know who have disclosed both their mcat sore and gpa as well as the fact that they are currently in med school...lol

2. I think your idea of intelligence is based off the concept that intelligence is something you're born with and can't gain. I took a neuroscience course on learning and memory, and we read plenty of literature that proves quite the opposite. Intelligence is not definite, you can definitely gain "intelligence" through hard work.

You're using the word "intelligence" as if it has a fixed definition... Also literature doesn't prove anything, and you tried to argue earlier that "geniuses" had to have worked very hard at some point to gain their "intelligence" leading me to believe you have no idea either what you are talking about or how to express it.


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I will 100% agree that luck plays a role in that people absolutely do get passages that happen to play to their particular strengths or weaknesses. At the same time, I've seen people quite often try to extrapolate this to "it's all luck based on the passages you get so anything above a 35/38/whatever arbitrary cutoff is just luck" implying that scoring higher isn't reflective of skill just because they themselves couldn't do it. I think that a load of crap because people fail to prepare properly and know ALL of the material to the extent that they should.

I even disagree about verbal, there are people who can consistently score 14-15 on VR. It's not some horribly flawed section, it's just hard AND on top of that like you said it's only 40 questions.


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VR to me is interesting, and I don't really have an explanation for the makings of that section haha.

Yeah I do agree with you that all content must be hit thoroughly, really hard to micro-analyze as I'm sure it differs case by case.
 
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You're using the word "intelligence" as if it has a fixed definition... Also literature doesn't prove anything, and you tried to argue earlier that "geniuses" had to have worked very hard at some point to gain their "intelligence" leading me to believe you have no idea either what you are talking about or how to express it.


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I don't know how to express it. But I appreciate your analysis of my "intelligence" :laugh:

Also, love your avatar, "is mayonnaise an instrument"
 
Intelligence is multifactorial and defined in a number of ways. Psychometrics generally defines intelligence as abstract thought, reasoning and problem solving, however, the field also recognizes that experience plays a role.

For example, in standardized tests of intelligence or IQ (ie, WISC, WAIS, WAIS-R, Stanford Binet, Raven's etc.), examinees can be penalized if they have different cultural experiences than what the test is designed to measure. A former question on the WISC (which I took as a child and remember quite clearly), asked one to discuss the various definitions of the word orange. If one had never seen the fruit, they would be penalized. That would be about as fair as showing me a picture of a cherimoya and asking me to describe what it tastes like.

More recent exams have started to include measures of visual processing, reaction times, spatial ability, fluid intelligence and even musical, kinesthetic or social intelligence. These are popular because it allows for a broader definition of intelligence than the original psychometric measures allowed for and to show that different talents can be measured and fit within our definition of "intelligence". Are Yo Yo Ma, Itzhak Perlman or Michael Phelps intelligent? Perhaps not on standardized tests but certainly their talents reach levels that many of us could never hope to obtain. Practice? Yes, but there is innate talent and physical attributes (in Phelps' case) that are paramount.

So while it is true that some intelligence can be gained through experience and life, "geniuses" are not defined as such because of that but rather because of some innate quality that is well recognized, well tested and can accurately predict achievement and performance. It is clear that these individuals are born this way.
 
I will 100% agree that luck plays a role in that people absolutely do get passages that happen to play to their particular strengths or weaknesses. At the same time, I've seen people quite often try to extrapolate this to "it's all luck based on the passages you get so anything above a 35/38/whatever arbitrary cutoff is just luck" implying that scoring higher isn't reflective of skill just because they themselves couldn't do it. I think that a load of crap because people fail to prepare properly and know ALL of the material to the extent that they should.

I even disagree about verbal, there are people who can consistently score 14-15 on VR. It's not some horribly flawed section, it's just hard AND on top of that like you said it's only 40 questions.


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You can not be serious...This is like getting 39-40 out of 40 taking the test at least 5 times.
 
I think it's impossible for someone to take 5 VR EK 101 and get 39+ in all five.

It's interesting that you pick "five," but Jonathan Orsay claims to have gotten a 15 on his actual MCAT VR and then a 14 when he took an EK 101 test after the book was written (he didn't write it).

In any case I don't see how it's logical to err on the side of impossibility. Just statistically, you're fighting the odds there.
 
I will 100% agree that luck plays a role in that people absolutely do get passages that happen to play to their particular strengths or weaknesses. At the same time, I've seen people quite often try to extrapolate this to "it's all luck based on the passages you get so anything above a 35/38/whatever arbitrary cutoff is just luck" implying that scoring higher isn't reflective of skill just because they themselves couldn't do it. I think that a load of crap because people fail to prepare properly and know ALL of the material to the extent that they should.

I even disagree about verbal, there are people who can consistently score 14-15 on VR. It's not some horribly flawed section, it's just hard AND on top of that like you said it's only 40 questions.


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Truth. Not to be cocky (or pretentious), but I know people who have NEVER scored under 13 on VR. VR is my fav section; a well-seasoned reader can do very well. Same reasoning applies to other 2 sections
 
It's interesting that you pick "five," but Jonathan Orsay claims to have gotten a 15 on his actual MCAT VR and then a 14 when he took an EK 101 test after the book was written (he didn't write it).

In any case I don't see how it's logical to err on the side of impossibility. Just statistically, you're fighting the odds there.

I would agree you if you said 13-14 consistently....
 
imo...Subjective crap threads like this just clogs up SDN and derails people from answering more important MCAT related questions.

Are there any witnesses here who saw this lady's/gentleman's arm being twisted to come here, pay attention to this thread, and post?

And since the thread topic said most of what was being discussed on this thread, why are you even paying attention to anything other than what you are here for on this forum?
 
Truth. Not to be cocky (or pretentious), but I know people who have NEVER scored under 13 on VR. VR is my fav section; a well-seasoned reader can do very well. Same reasoning applies to other 2 sections

LOL. The science sections came naturally to me ~13 on most tests on both of them but the verbal was my nightmare - English being by 10th language :). The 8 I got on my actual test was actually my highest score :D

Even now, I get questions wrong because I thought they were asking for something else as I didn't fully understand the question - sad.
 
LOL. The science sections came naturally to me ~13 on most tests on both of them but the verbal was my nightmare - English being by 10th language :). The 8 I got on my actual test was actually my highest score :D

Even now, I get questions wrong because I thought they were asking for something else as I didn't fully understand the question - sad.

Yeah, I could imagine it sucking for a ESL (ETL, in your case, haha) student.
 
LOL. The science sections came naturally to me ~13 on most tests on both of them but the verbal was my nightmare - English being by 10th language :). The 8 I got on my actual test was actually my highest score :D

Even now, I get questions wrong because I thought they were asking for something else as I didn't fully understand the question - sad.
:eek:

Are you fluent in the other 9?
 
:eek:

Are you fluent in the other 9?

Just exaggerating my friend :D. I would say, English is about 5th or 6th language. Fluent in all of them - spoken only in all. Forgotten one of them now, which I am not counting. Can't write or read 2 of those either. But it's all good. Since I have been here, now forgetting my native language as well since everyone wants to speak in English when I call LOL
 
LOL. The science sections came naturally to me ~13 on most tests on both of them but the verbal was my nightmare - English being by 10th language :). The 8 I got on my actual test was actually my highest score :D

Even now, I get questions wrong because I thought they were asking for something else as I didn't fully understand the question - sad.

Now you are a resident....Verbal is not a paramount to be successful in med school like most on SDN claim.
 
Yeah, I could imagine it sucking for a ESL (ETL, in your case, haha) student.

It's just the way brain is programmed for language from early on I have been told. If that language is not the primary language - spoken or written then the brain wires itself in a way that will make it very difficult for a person to be better at these tests. There is nothing I can do about it :D

- This is what I have been told and has nothing to do with my laziness - and I am sticking to it LOL
 
Now you are a resident....Verbal is not a paramount to be successful in med school like most on SDN claim.

No the verbal score never hindered me from acing my tests including ABIM - because the questions after MCAT are more about understanding rather than the way verbal questions are. Don't get me wrong, the questions are still ambiguous but you get better at it as the information presented is more relevant. e.g. if a pt is coming in with DKA and you have the labs, the intitial treatment and workup is going to be the same regardless of the way question is worded - Never can understand the sociology, literature kind of verbal questions.

Done with residency sir/ma'am!
 
Now you are a resident....Verbal is not a paramount to be successful in med school like most on SDN claim.

I think that comes from a paper that I saw long time ago, which showed correlation between MCAT verbal score and med school success. I would say bollocks to that. Maybe it will help you read faster that I will but in the end I will get the same information - maybe 30 seconds later.

Don't read too much into that. The only thing/one that can predict your success in medical school is YOU.

Good Luck!
 
No the verbal score never hindered me from acing my tests including ABIM - because the questions after MCAT are more about understanding rather than the way verbal questions are. Don't get me wrong, the questions are still ambiguous but you get better at it as the information presented is more relevant. e.g. if a pt is coming in with DKA and you have the labs, the intitial treatment and workup is going to be the same regardless of the way question is worded - Never can understand the sociology, literature kind of verbal questions.

Done with residency sir/ma'am!

You status said resident...You should change it to attending. Congrats...
 
I don't think it's luck that people can score highly on Verbal (or any section), but I think it's a crap section. Having seen the "justification" for many of the answers in the practice test, I'm not impressed. It basically requires you to make a series of (sometimes vague or arbitrary) assumptions that match those that the test-makers feel are most appropriate. This is exacerbated by how sensitive that section is to misses since it has so few questions and a brutal scale.

I think it's very easy to be consistent on the other two sections (PS & BS). They're very straightforward and logical.
 
I don't think it's luck that people can score highly on Verbal (or any section), but I think it's a crap section. Having seen the "justification" for many of the answers in the practice test, I'm not impressed. It basically requires you to make a series of (sometimes vague or arbitrary) assumptions that match those that the test-makers feel are most appropriate. This is exacerbated by how sensitive that section is to misses since it has so few questions and a brutal scale.

I think it's very easy to be consistent on the other two sections (PS & BS). They're very straightforward and logical.

This.
 
LOL. The science sections came naturally to me ~13 on most tests on both of them but the verbal was my nightmare - English being by 10th language :). The 8 I got on my actual test was actually my highest score :D

Even now, I get questions wrong because I thought they were asking for something else as I didn't fully understand the question - sad.

We are the same. ESL here. verbal totally owned me. As an undergrad, I took the MCAT without any prep and scored 10-11 on sciences easily. I had to retake it to change my miserable verbal score of 5 to an 8. I got in with that score (28Q) in 2006.

I then abandoned medicine and went to grad school for 6 yrs. In my final year I decided to go back to med school, buckled down for two weeks and practiced verbal hard most of that time aiming to score at least an 11, and I actually did some MCAT science practice for the 1st time by looking at two of the AAMC published tests (highly recommended). I also reviewed EK since I forgot some of the college science.

On the real thing I scored 12's in sciences (lower than I expected, but still good), but only got a 9 on the verbal. MCAT verbal is one thing I can say I am not good at--for sure. That section is very hard--it's even harder than LSAT verbal. I frankly don't know how people get 12-15s on MCAT VR. I got a few 10's and 11's on practice though, if that counts. Well I'm in medical school and none of the above matters anymore except Step I. I am happy I never have to look at another crap verbal test in my life.

So to those struggling, just try your best and get it over with.

PS: I own GRE verbal (97th percentile when I took it).
 
1. 3.6-3.9 is a HUGE range too so I suppose 32-39 is quite appropriate (well at my school it is at least. And by friends, I mean 20-30 people I know who have disclosed both their mcat sore and gpa as well as the fact that they are currently in med school...lol

2. I think your idea of intelligence is based off the concept that intelligence is something you're born with and can't gain. I took a neuroscience course on learning and memory, and we read plenty of literature that proves quite the opposite. Intelligence is not definite, you can definitely gain "intelligence" through hard work.

Check out this article:

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/more-proof-that-intelligence-is-85134.aspx
 
We are the same. ESL here. verbal totally owned me. As an undergrad, I took the MCAT without any prep and scored 10-11 on sciences easily. I had to retake it to change my miserable verbal score of 5 to an 8. I got in with that score (28Q) in 2006.

I then abandoned medicine and went to grad school for 6 yrs. In my final year I decided to go back to med school, buckled down for two weeks and practiced verbal hard most of that time aiming to score at least an 11, and I actually did some MCAT science practice for the 1st time by looking at two of the AAMC published tests (highly recommended). I also reviewed EK since I forgot some of the college science.

On the real thing I scored 12's in sciences (lower than I expected, but still good), but only got a 9 on the verbal. MCAT verbal is one thing I can say I am not good at--for sure. That section is very hard--it's even harder than LSAT verbal. I frankly don't know how people get 12-15s on MCAT VR. I got a few 10's and 11's on practice though, if that counts. Well I'm in medical school and none of the above matters anymore except Step I. I am happy I never have to look at another crap verbal test in my life.

So to those struggling, just try your best and get it over with.

PS: I own GRE verbal (97th percentile when I took it).

Agreed, MCAT verbal is easily one of the most "unstudiable" standardized tests I have ever seen.
 
Agreed, MCAT verbal is easily one of the most "unstudiable" standardized tests I have ever seen.

...what? Sure, it might require more critical thinking skills (which are perhaps less objective than basic knowledge mastery), but I wouldn't say it's "unstudiable." If you know the material and do practice exams to get a feel for the exam, you will be prepared. Sure, maybe it's not possible for everyone to get 39+, but everyone is capable of at least getting into the low to mid 30s.
 
...what? Sure, it might require more critical thinking skills (which are perhaps less objective than basic knowledge mastery), but I wouldn't say it's "unstudiable." If you know the material and do practice exams to get a feel for the exam, you will be prepared. Sure, maybe it's not possible for everyone to get 39+, but everyone is capable of at least getting into the low to mid 30s.

I'm not saying it's completely "unstudiable", however I feel like there is only a small amount of things you can do besides practice the questions. I don't think there is any magic strategy you can learn to help you on verbal, what EK says is basically just "read for main idea, try to answer questions while limiting re-reading". A lot of it is just testing your natural reasoning ability and reading skills, which imo is a skill that can't really be vastly developed in the couple of months you study for the test. In contrast, a section like SAT verbal has vocabulary words that can be reviewed and the questions are presented in a more predictable format (in chronological order, you can figure out how to read the passage incrementally and answer the questions as you go, leaving the main idea questions for last). MCAT verbal has less rigid structure associated with it (just my opinion though), and a lot of questions involve "application and incorporation" (as AAMC puts it). But maybe I'm missing something. My scores increased slightly once I familiarized myself with the timing and style of the questions/passages but since then I've somewhat plateaued.
 
It is so hard to score a 32, that around 85% of those trying fail. ;)

A bulk of that 85% percent includes people that are only 1/10th as motivated as the people on this forum and also people who take prep classes and believe taking a class = 30+. The MCAT takes discipline to master
 
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