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Is getting accepted to any osteopathic or allopathic med school as impossible as people make it out to be or is it possible? Allopathic answer separately and osteopathic answer separately.
Allopathic:
Yea, its pretty damned hard. The challenge is twofold in that you need to be academically successful (good GPA and MCAT) and also have great ECs/experiences that fit together to weave a coherent story. What gets so many people is that even if (and thats quite an if) the numbers all line up, you could still get rejected if your story isn't compelling enough. Then there's a huge role of luck in MD admissions thanks to mission driven schools and state schools. I (and many others) would probably have not been accepted anywhere if not for mission driven and state schools. People in states like Kentucky or West Virginia just need to be a resident and have an good shot at MD. Then there are superstars in California who get rejected despite an immaculate application.
TL;DR: Its really hard and luck is a huge factor
Osteopathic:
Challenging, but much more reasonable. They offer grade replacement, accept lower MCATS, and only a few have strong instate preferences. You still need a coherent app with no major red flags though to have a good shot, and this is by no means an easy thing to accomplish. Also, you need to be able to answer additional questions for Osteo schools (Like why DO), which make it a bit tougher. Additionally, most Osteo schools are private, so they tend to be a little pricier (there are certainly some exceptions to this rule)
Caribbean:
If you have the ability to locate and utilize a checkbook effectively you are nearly guaranteed admission
It's not easy. You have to be dedicated; there is very little room to screw up, especially for MD schools. Financially the process is very burdening if you don't come from money. And it gets pretty demoralizing to see all your friends advance in their careers while you're in limbo - doubly so if you end up being a re-applicant.
Allopathic: Its pretty damn hard especially with the rise of applicants. Honestly though I am a strong believer that the MCAT is the "limiting reactant" for the entire reaction to go to completion. Much much bigger crapshoot than Osteopathic Schools. Way more applicants, and the "low tier" MD schools all have MCAT scores/GPA matriculant averages at the same or slightly higher level as "top tier" DO schools.
Osteopathic: These schools tend to be more forgiving so its not as hard, but its not super easy either. Still, they are much more forgiving of mistakes you might have made for your application. Still, you probably arent going to get into a DO school with a 3.0 and 25 MCAT. You also probably wont get in without some substantial form of clinical experience either. Its still not easy, but considerably easier to get in than an allopathic school.
This is pretty accurate. Also true that if you have competitive stats you're far more likely to receive an interview at DO schools. In general though, while the applicant pool is weaker, the matriculant averages for DO are rapidly rising to MD levels and the days of 3.2/26 applicants getting into med school are basically over.
This is pretty accurate. Also true that if you have competitive stats you're far more likely to receive an interview at DO schools. In general though, while the applicant pool is weaker, the matriculant averages for DO are rapidly rising to MD levels and the days of 3.2/26 applicants getting into med school are basically over.
I would disagree, although they are certainly not going to the schools they used to, the new Do schools are still taking many lower metric applicants
Is getting accepted to any osteopathic or allopathic med school as impossible as people make it out to be or is it possible? Allopathic answer separately and osteopathic answer separately.
I'm assuming this is also accounting for how the average MD applicant applies to at least 20 schools, right?No, overall it's 40% for MD schools. Don't what the numbers are for DO schools, but I'm sure it's on the AOA or AACOM website. Naturally, this will get skewed by what state you live in, the strength of your app, the timing of your app submission, and the school you apply to.
I would disagree, although they are certainly not going to the schools they used to, the new Do schools are still taking many lower metric applicants
I look at it as a simple checklist, although each point on the checklist is independently difficult to achieve. If you get all of them, you'll get in.
I think for-profit DO schools should raise their own red flags for obvious reasons. The established programs are becoming much, much more competitive. Some of them have higher matriculant averages than several low tier MD schools.
As someone who is currently in the cycle, yes, it's really bad and it's only going to get worse.
As another poster mentioned, demographics are very important. An applicant from Michigan and California each have very different experiences.
I have many friends with above average GPAs/MCATs that are getting pre-interview rejections from NYMC, Texas Tech, etc. It's honestly, a crap shoot. Go to the Harvard page here and you will see people with LizzyMs of 68,69,70 getting interview invites who are subsequently being rejected from their state schools. It's a crapshoot. More schools, I predict, will begin using the Casper system of testing ethics in order to add more level to the strainer and be even more selective of students.
Even for DO schools, the older schools have processes that are becoming just as competitive. Some schools are already very vocal and public about not interviewing anyone with a sub 30 MCAT irregardless of GPA (TouroNY, AZCOM, TouroCA etc.). PCOM and CCOM receive more applicants than most MD schools. I mentioned this in another thread but, I predict, in the next 5 years, most of the older DO schools will have "closed doors" at Christmas, where most of the class will be filled by January. Currently, if you are a competitive applicant, applying in December isn't considered late. The concept of DOs becoming a "backup option" won't exist in ~5 years, if not sooner, unless you want to go to the Virginias or Carolinas.
Finally, let's not forget to mention the MCAT, the new MCAT. It's become a killer test that's 7 hours long. The requirements have now included psychology, sociology, biochemistry, genetics, and physiology. This will squeeze out sooo many non-trads and older students, unfortunately, that would add soo much perspective and diversity to medical school classes. If you are an ESL student, like me, prepare for the worst, because this test has become almost insurmountable.
I didn't want to comment too much on it here but, yes, it has become a test where if you're wealthy enough to hire a tutor, you'll do fine irregardless of your aptitude or reasoning skills. Not to mention that it is now only offered in a few select months in the year and costs $300. Yes, $300.Yea, SDN likes to remain optimistic about the MCAT situation. That test almost ruined my life. Seriously.
I didn't want to comment too much on it here but, yes, it has become a test where if you're wealthy enough to hire a tutor, you'll do fine irregardless of your aptitude or reasoning skills. Not to mention that it is now only offered in a few select months in the year and costs $300. Yes, $300.
No, overall it's 40% for MD schools. Don't what the numbers are for DO schools, but I'm sure it's on the AOA or AACOM website. Naturally, this will get skewed by what state you live in, the strength of your app, the timing of your app submission, and the school you apply to.
Another rule of thumb: MD schools want high MCAT+ high GPA, while more DO schools will prefer one over the other. it's more of a gradation than a stricter cut-off for the MD schools.
MD median stats: 3.7 and 31 MCAT
DO median stats: ~ 3.3-3.4 and ~27 (but my notion is that it appears that these are rising at a faster rate than are for MD)
Data for MD taken from AACOM.
I'm assuming this is also accounting for how the average MD applicant applies to at least 20 schools, right?
Finally, let's not forget to mention the MCAT, the new MCAT. It's become a killer test that's 7 hours long. The requirements have now included psychology, sociology, biochemistry, genetics, and physiology. This will squeeze out sooo many non-trads and older students, unfortunately, that would add soo much perspective and diversity to medical school classes. If you are an ESL student, like me, prepare for the worst, because this test has become almost insurmountable.
I really, really doubt that.
The reasoning behind why I said that was, in part, because most post-bac programs are now transitioning from 2 year programs to 3 year programs to cover the additional requirements. My own undergraduate school has already done so. I believe this will squeeze out older students who don't want to invest another 4 years to, potentially, get into medical school.I really, really doubt that.
No, overall it's 40% for MD schools. Don't what the numbers are for DO schools, but I'm sure it's on the AOA or AACOM website. Naturally, this will get skewed by what state you live in, the strength of your app, the timing of your app submission, and the school you apply to.
Another rule of thumb: MD schools want high MCAT+ high GPA, while more DO schools will prefer one over the other. it's more of a gradation than a stricter cut-off for the MD schools.
MD median stats: 3.7 and 31 MCAT
DO median stats: ~ 3.3-3.4 and ~27 (but my notion is that it appears that these are rising at a faster rate than are for MD)
Data for MD taken from AACOM.
I'm assuming this is also accounting for how the average MD applicant applies to at least 20 schools, right?
The bolded is not true at all. That implies that there is a guarantee in admissions. There is no guarantee. There are many applicants with great applications that do not get in every year. Its a crapshoot for a reason.
Another rule of thumb: MD schools want high MCAT+ high GPA, while more DO schools will prefer one over the other. it's more of a gradation than a stricter cut-off for the MD schools.
Allopathic: Its pretty damn hard especially with the rise of applicants. Honestly though I am a strong believer that the MCAT is the "limiting reactant" for the entire reaction to go to completion. Much much bigger crapshoot than Osteopathic Schools. Way more applicants, and the "low tier" MD schools all have MCAT scores/GPA matriculant averages at the same or slightly higher level as "top tier" DO schools. Edit: Also other people on here may not want to admit to it but your MCAT literally comprises about 80 percent of determining whether or not you have a shot between Harvard, or some random "low tier" MD. If you arent good at standardized testing, then dont expect too much from an allopathic cycle.
If MD schools are so keen in acquiring students with high GPA and high MCAT, why are applicants with a 3.9/39+ with strong ECs screened out and promptly rejected by lower-tier MD and possibly mid-tier MD schools? Why does the concept of "yield protection" exist for MD schools if they want high stats?
Because those schools know that those people will get into better schools and go to them. If anything this reinforces how much MD schools go after stats.
I didn't want to comment too much on it here but, yes, it has become a test where if you're wealthy enough to hire a tutor, you'll do fine irregardless of your aptitude or reasoning skills. Not to mention that it is now only offered in a few select months in the year and costs $300. Yes, $300.
Even despite their essays clearly addressing the school's mission?
It may not always be totally fair, but if no one with 3.9/39 has matriculated to your school in like a decade, why waste resources on interviewing them?
Then most MD schools aren't hungry for high GPA and high MCAT. Simple as that.
How many people do you really think do not get in assuming they had high GPA, high MCAT, plenty of clinical and volunteer experience, and apply to a broad range of appropriate schools? I think the only "crapshoot" part is that you have to be a decent writer and you have to be personable, which may not be quite learnable (especially the latter). You also have to genuinely want it and know what you are getting yourself into, but that isn't really based on chance alone either.
If MD schools are so keen in acquiring students with high GPA and high MCAT, why are applicants with a 3.9/39+ with strong ECs screened out and promptly rejected by lower-tier MD and possibly mid-tier MD schools? Why does the concept of "yield protection" exist for MD schools if they want high stats?
Because those schools know that those people will get into better schools and go to them. If anything this reinforces how much MD schools go after stats.
I wish I could hook up with a supermodel, but I can't, so I go for the cute girl at the local bar.
Chris Mack has answered your question the same way I would have @Lawper
The idea is simple. Goro and Gandyy are emphasizing that having good stats is key to getting into MD schools. This means that applicants with strong stats will receive interviews at any MD school of interest assuming their essays adequately address their mission statement (why apply otherwise?). The concept of yield protection won't exist if the applicant is serious to apply there.
Since yield protection exists and since most MD schools do reject applicants with strong stats due to irrational fears of being rejected for something better, it is inaccurate to say that most MD schools are stat hungry. Save that for the top tiers and stat ***** schools.
Come try Canadian MD school applications
No thats not at all what we are saying. It takes years of effort to get even the "average matriculant MD" application. I'm talking about even getting an "average matriculant MD" application together is very tough. A 31 MCAT is not what I would consider "high". It is a good MCAT score that is tough to attain for most people. You cant just have good stats. You need everything else as well, and a good story/reason for wanting to go into medicine. Just like I said above, MCAT is the limiting reagent for most people.
GPA building is too variable and often very easy to build compared to the MCAT. Exams given by the most university professors are just not as hard as the MCAT. Most pre-med pre req exams require regurgitation and some critical thinking. The MCAT is a behemoth of a test compared to most University exams. Many college pre-meds are not used to this kind of test.
I didn't want to comment too much on it here but, yes, it has become a test where if you're wealthy enough to hire a tutor, you'll do fine irregardless of your aptitude or reasoning skills. Not to mention that it is now only offered in a few select months in the year and costs $300. Yes, $300.
I understand all that, and I know it is difficult to get into MD school. No one is denying that. However, it is wrong to say that most MD schools are stat hungry when yield protection applies. And this is a serious problem for those stuck in an average/low GPA with very high MCAT scores no matter how small this group is.
Guy I work with graduated with a 4.0 from Harvard, no interviews all across Canada.I've heard about the terrors of Canadian Medical school admissions. No thank you.
Ok, but one of the other major undlerying points in all of my posts here is that MD schools are much more "stat hungry" than osteopathic schools. There is no denying that. I understand what you are saying about yield protection.
Guy I work with graduated with a 4.0 from Harvard, no interviews all across Canada.
How do I get a green card people?
I wouldn't say it's much more stat hungry, but having more stricter standards. Even then, I'm still frustrated with the rationale of the lower tier MD schools. They screen out applicants who aren't "good enough" for them (which is elitist in a way) and reject applicants who are "too good for them". Those stuck with a low GPA/high MCAT are effectively screwed either way, and it is upsetting.