Is it advisable to make a career shift at this point?

[comp_manif]

Hello everybody.

I am currently a quantitative researcher at a major prop trading firm in NYC, before this I was working as a machine learning research scientist at one of the 4 major software companies. I completed my undergraduate degree at the University of Toronto in Canada (I am a Canadian citizen, not a US citizen) and MASt and PhD at the University of Cambridge.

I am considering a career shift into medicine, but I am having some doubts which I mention below. I was considering this while completing my undergraduate studies, and as such I completed the prerequisite courses. My undergraduate field of study was maths and computer science. My undergraduate GPA was 3.8 and my MCAT score was 44.

The three things I am most worried about are:

-Spending 9 years swamped with workload, and perhaps having a similarly difficult lifestyle even afterwards. My fiance and I are getting married this December, and we are planning on starting a family soon. My current work environment is perfectly suited for me, working 50-60 hours each week. But if the workload throughout medical school and residency is 80+ hours a week, then it is probably unsustainable. I am not sure if that is true.

-Earning around 50000 over those 9 years (approximately), which may mean I am making a terribly idiotic decision from a financial perspective as I currently have a salary of 220000 along with a varying bonus of around 600000 per annum. Though I know several practicing surgeons who earn around 1 to 1.5 million from their private practice, but this involves working around 14 hours a week and 2 of them are also named professors at some place. So I am assuming that is very rare and probably unheard of for anyone working say 50 hours a week.

-Is my low undergraduate GPA (including one D+ and 2 Bs in one semester) and apparent noncommitment to medicine enough to prevent me from being admitted to a good medical school in the US as an international student?

If someone here who has gone through the process of medical school and residency can shed some light on the workload and lifestyle throughout it, it would be greatly appreciated.

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[crazymedguy123]

You have to retake MCAT since the old one isn't taken any more by any schools
You have to commit time to physician shadowing (especially primary care), clinical experiences (working with patients), and nonclinical volunteering.
Don't do medicine for the money. If you want to make a ton of money, continue working your job making 800+K a year. You are actually wrong about making 50k for 9 years. 4 years of that you will pay 400k, and residency (3-5 years) you'll be paid 50-60k a year. You will lose money in the first 9 years.
Not speaking from experience, but residencies vary by specialty in terms of workload. Some I'm sure will be 80 hours or more, some may not be. Med school can be similar, especially near exams, but you have more control of your schedule since most of this is studying on your own.
Your GPA is fine, the D and 2 B's shouldn't matter to most schools

 

[gyngyn]

You can count on at least a couple of years putting together an application.
Most schools that consider internationals matriculate 0 to 2.
The 80 hour work week restriction doesn't start until residency!

 

[comp_manif]

You can count on at least a couple of years putting together an application.
Most schools that consider internationals matriculate 0 to 2.
The 80 hour work week restriction doesn't start until residency!

What would I need to do apart from take the new MCAT that would take a couple of years? I am fine on the work, clinical, research (I have a very strong publishing record, my team and I have published in ICLR, JMLR, ICML, NIPS, etc, though of course it is far away from the life sciences) and volunteering experience front along with shadowing.

 

[curbsideconsult]

Just a lowly 3rd year here, but I can shed a little light on at least the app process and the first couple of med school years.

-Spending 9 years swamped with workload, and perhaps having a similarly difficult lifestyle even afterwards. My fiance and I are getting married this December, and we are planning on starting a family soon. My current work environment is perfectly suited for me, working 50-60 hours each week. But if the workload throughout medical school and residency is 80+ hours a week, then it is probably unsustainable. I am not sure if that is true.

Where are you getting this number 9? Do you have a residency in mind? Are you considering taking more undergrad classes? It looks like you already did the prereqs, so all you would have to do is take the MCAT again, get some clinical and volunteering experience, and apply next year. Buy the MSAR to make sure you have your prereqs covered.

Med school in the states is 4 years and then a minimum of 3 years of residency. Though some schools do offer 3 year med school programs.

If you start having kids shortly after getting married, then you have about a year with your kid before you start medical school which should give you some quality time with the tot. If you want more quality time with your kid (soak it up before those raging teen years) then look at schools that don't have mandatory lecture attendance. Many med students study at their own pace at home with the recorded lectures and show up only for exams and other mandatory sessions.

-Is my low undergraduate GPA (including one D+ and 2 Bs in one semester) and apparent noncommitment to medicine enough to prevent me from being admitted to a good medical school in the US as an international student?

As mentioned above, your overall stats make up for these low grades. Your commitment will be evident to adcoms through your clinical and volunteer work which needs to start right now. You might be able to get 2-in-1 if you can find decent clinical volunteer work. Something like hospice care usually fits the bill.

 

[JeSuisUnDoc]

What would I need to do apart from take the new MCAT that would take a couple of years? I am fine on the work, clinical, research (I have a very strong publishing record, my team and I have published in ICLR, JMLR, ICML, NIPS, etc, though of course it is far away from the life sciences) and volunteering experience front along with shadowing.

How many hours of clinical, non clinical volunteering and shadowing do you have?


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[gyngyn]

What would I need to do apart from take the new MCAT that would take a couple of years? I am fine on the work, clinical, research (I have a very strong publishing record, my team and I have published in ICLR, JMLR, ICML, NIPS, etc, though of course it is far away from the life sciences) and volunteering experience front along with shadowing.

Accomplishments in your field are not a substitute for validated evidence of the core competencies.
There are only 68 US MD schools that consider Canadians. Most of them matriculate 0 to 2...
It is already September so we are talking two cycles at the earliest. This one is done.

 

[comp_manif]

How many hours of clinical, non clinical volunteering and shadowing do you have?

Around 800 hours in clinical experience if my "stint" as a EMT counts, close to 400 hours of volunteering (tutoring and some pro bono consulting for an NGO), and around 100 hours of shadowing.

 

[Goro]

Around 800 hours in clinical experience if my "stint" as a EMT counts, close to 400 hours of volunteering (tutoring and some pro bono consulting for an NGO), and around 100 hours of shadowing.

Great numbers...an MCAT retake will be needed.

Your 3.8 GPA is NOT low!

 

[JeSuisUnDoc]

Around 800 hours in clinical experience if my "stint" as a EMT counts, close to 400 hours of volunteering (tutoring and some pro bono consulting for an NGO), and around 100 hours of shadowing.

Those are great numbers. You really only need the MCAT now to apply and apply broadly cuz you know... internationals even as a Canadian, it’s hard.

For the MCAT, it’s different. It’s longer and has more subjects in them. They’re heavy on biochem now and they include psychology and sociology.

Also, research more cuz from those 9 years you mentioned, it showed you need to understand this long process more and weigh on the cost and the benefits.


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[mw18]

Great numbers...an MCAT retake will be needed.

Your 3.8 GPA is NOT low!

Is this GPA on a 4 point scale? I seem to remember that some Canadians calculate GPA differently.

 

[Goro]

Is this GPA on a 4 point scale? I seem to remember that some Canadians calculate GPA differently.

Yes.

 

[yyll]

I have no doubt that you will get into a medical school somewhere with your stats and educational background. The only question I have is why you want to do this. Right off the bat, you should know that in your case med school makes almost no financial sense given your current level of income. From what I understand, you are making about 800K/yr. Not many doctors can pull that kind of income, and the few that do work their asses off in med school and residency. Even then there is zero guarantee that you will match into the uber competitive specialties such as neurosurgery/orthopedic surgery that provide access to incomes > 800K. There is a good chance that you will never make up the lost earning potential and opportunity cost by giving up your finance job and becoming a doctor. In terms of lifestyle, it obviously varies hugely based on specialty and practice setup, but it is common for attending physicians to work > 60 hrs per week and I'm not even talking about the surgical specialties.

Do the math, and please think long and hard before making this transition. However, if you really can't see yourself doing anything other than medicine, you should definitely go for it and the rest will probably work out.

 

[dl2dp2]

As someone who has a similar research background but started out in medicine, I can tell you that you won’t enjoy medicine very much. You are not going to make more money, and the way with which your brain works is not really the way medicine works. Medicine IS fun and rewarding in many ways, but it’s not really a good way to solve your mid-life issues.

First of all, it’s very possible that you’ll need to MOVE. This is already a big problem if you have a wife and children. Second, your lifestyle will very dramatically change. While this is easy to do when you are single, it’s not feasible when you have children and definitely not in New York, unless your net worth is in the 10M plus range—which I gather it is not currently.

What I suggest is to think about this in a different way. It’s best if you continue in your current career and aim for financial independence, and start getting involved in work that appropriately leverages your existing expertise in healthcare and other ways which might be charitable and rewarding. The day to day practice of medicine is not at all what you think it is, unless you have already had substantial shadowing experience, and the vast majority of physicians make less money than you do and work longer hours. If need be, you can work out with a therapist about what it is about your job that’s not rewarding enough.

People in finance DO transition in medicine, but this typically happens a lot earlier (i.e. in the late 20s).

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

Did I read that right? You have a 600K bonus??
Dude. Stay in your job. I would!


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[mistafab]

Nowhere in your post did you explain what you don’t like about what you currently do, and what you do like about medicine.

I know you probably know these but typically it helps if people share this in their posts. Lots of times when people elaborate on the WHY, it is apparent that many of them are running away from something and not really running toward medicine.

This is also a question that you will probably get asked in interviews. Up to you if you want to share.

 

[comp_manif]

Just a lowly 3rd year here, but I can shed a little light on at least the app process and the first couple of med school years.


Where are you getting this number 9? Do you have a residency in mind? Are you considering taking more undergrad classes? It looks like you already did the prereqs, so all you would have to do is take the MCAT again, get some clinical and volunteering experience, and apply next year. Buy the MSAR to make sure you have your prereqs covered.

Med school in the states is 4 years and then a minimum of 3 years of residency. Though some schools do offer 3 year med school programs.

If you start having kids shortly after getting married, then you have about a year with your kid before you start medical school which should give you some quality time with the tot. If you want more quality time with your kid (soak it up before those raging teen years) then look at schools that don't have mandatory lecture attendance. Many med students study at their own pace at home with the recorded lectures and show up only for exams and other mandatory sessions.


As mentioned above, your overall stats make up for these low grades. Your commitment will be evident to adcoms through your clinical and volunteer work which needs to start right now. You might be able to get 2-in-1 if you can find decent clinical volunteer work. Something like hospice care usually fits the bill.

I don't have anything particular in mind, I just know that orthopedics (which is what my mother does, but she wasn't educated here so I can't really ask her about the process) is typically 5 years and neurosurgery 7 years so I took 5 as an approximate. I'm not too concerned about the length of commitment, but more about my life during it. Would you say that your schedule is so that you're mostly occupied for say 80 hours each week?

As someone who has a similar research background but started out in medicine, I can tell you that you won’t enjoy medicine very much. You are not going to make more money, and the way with which your brain works is not really the way medicine works. Medicine IS fun and rewarding in many ways, but it’s not really a good way to solve your mid-life issues.

First of all, it’s very possible that you’ll need to MOVE. This is already a big problem if you have a wife and children. Second, your lifestyle will very dramatically change. While this is easy to do when you are single, it’s not feasible when you have children and definitely not in New York, unless your net worth is in the 10M plus range—which I gather it is not currently.

What I suggest is to think about this in a different way. It’s best if you continue in your current career and aim for financial independence, and start getting involved in work that appropriately leverages your existing expertise in healthcare and other ways which might be charitable and rewarding. The day to day practice of medicine is not at all what you think it is, unless you have already had substantial shadowing experience, and the vast majority of physicians make less money than you do and work longer hours. If need be, you can work out with a therapist about what it is about your job that’s not rewarding enough.

People in finance DO transition in medicine, but this typically happens a lot earlier (i.e. in the late 20s).

Thanks, I'll have to think about that, especially the first point. I am in my late 20s though.

Did I read that right? You have a 600K bonus??
Dude. Stay in your job. I would!

Yes, typically in my field salaries stay constant after a point while the bonuses vary.

 

[curbsideconsult]

Would you say that your schedule is so that you're mostly occupied for say 80 hours each week?

The first two years I probably spent 40-60 hours a week in class/listening to online lectures and studying. If you're an efficient studier, you could easily treat med school like a 9-5 job. A couple people in my class are very focused and were able to do that more or less except during exam weeks. Third year just kind of depends on rotations. Some rotations are very chill where it's like a 9-5 except it's more like 6-3. Other rotations you're there from about 6-6 or longer. And then there's the studying afterward. But, like with most things in life, that grueling schedule doesn't last forever. You should still get 1 day off a week at a minimum. Med schools are under a lot tighter regulations than they used to be so it's much harder for residents and attendings to keep you at the hospital the way they used to.

You'll be earning a great salary and bonuses for the next two years so if I were you I'd stockpile some cash money so that I could hire a nanny for when things get really tough. Or make sure your partner is very ok with staying at home to be the primary caretaker and is very ok with you being gone 14 hours a day at times.

It seems like your biggest issue will be not having a greencard, unless you're trying for med school in Canada. Considering your background and academic record, it seems like everything else will be a piece of cake.

 

[753698]

If you are making 800k+ a year, just stay with your job haha. I'm guessing 90%+ doctors never hit that income in their entire lifetime. Not to mention all the wasted time spent in school+ residency.

Unless you are one of those "medicine is my calling" dudes, I don't know why you would switch. Especially because you might not even end up doing any specialty you like. You could end up in primary care. Who knows

 

[Tenk]

Don’t do it.

 

[Cheenghee Koh]

I am more concerned that you will have to tell a story, why medicine, and why right now. I am also coming from another profession at older age. That is the Top1 question I always need to answer. Because I am from a human service field, I do have some advantages and some special issues to work on before I can transfer into medicine. How about you? Given your career trajectory over the past few years, why you see you have a good fit in medicine, and medicine is a right career choice for you?

 

[atomi]

How old are you?

Most people go into medicine for money followed by some combination of prestige/respect and desire to help/do something meaningful.

You most likely won’t make more money than you do now, and it will be a decade before you can do that.

So you need to make sure something else is driving you.

You could be financially insdepemdent and contemplating early retirement by the time you would have completed residency if you don’t switch.

Most people say to college students don’t do this for the money (even though nearly all of us did to some degree). In your case it is especially true.

 

[atomi]

You are actually wrong about making 50k for 9 years. 4 years of that you will pay 400k

Umm, what?

I realize there are some expensive schools out there, but this is outrageous.

50k tuition for 4 years is only half that. 50k per year living expenses is excessive. State schools can have tuition half that or less.

OP should be able to save and not have to borrow and pay interest on loans.

Regardless, opportunity cost is the big issue for the OP here.

 

[crazymedguy123]

Umm, what?

I realize there are some expensive schools out there, but this is outrageous.

50k tuition for 4 years is only half that. 50k per year living expenses is excessive. State schools can have tuition half that or less.

OP should be able to save and not have to borrow and pay interest on loans.

Regardless, opportunity cost is the big issue for the OP here.

OP is international so they aren't in state for any school. He is living with his fiancee so they have combined living expenses. Sure some schools are 50k but many are 60-80k as well. 400k is really not that absurd if living costs are around 20-30k (for two people, assuming two cars, more food, etc.)

 

[thegreengreatdragon]

Is going to medical school in the US a must? I feel like it would be both easier to get into and cheaper to attend school in Canada.
Also, without wanting to be too invasive, I noticed that you're working the U.S. If you're a green card holder, I'm pretty sure you would count as a domestic student (please correct me if I'm wrong here). If you're here on some kind of work visa, then I'm not sure what the situation is, although I think you'd probably be considered an international student.

 

[futureDocDD]

You're making great money right now while the stock market is sky-high... just wait 1-2 years until the market crashes and see if you still think of med school...lol

 

[murse88]

I just want to quickly chime in. I'm 30 years old, and in doing the career shift into medicine as of now (I'm currently an RN).

If you don't like what you are doing, and you are passionate about pursuing medicine then do it.

In all honesty, it's not about the money. You have to want to do it and you have to be passionate about it. It's not for chumps. There is something insanely rewarding about devoting your life to a skill set and becoming an expert in that area. Oh, and guess what, you get to help people in the process.

So, asking a forum, should I do this or, is this the right choice, all boils down to you. How badly do you want it? Depending on that answer will determine if it is the right choice, no matter the circumstances.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I don't have anything particular in mind, I just know that orthopedics (which is what my mother does, but she wasn't educated here so I can't really ask her about the process) is typically 5 years and neurosurgery 7 years so I took 5 as an approximate. I'm not too concerned about the length of commitment, but more about my life during it. Would you say that your schedule is so that you're mostly occupied for say 80 hours each week?



Thanks, I'll have to think about that, especially the first point. I am in my late 20s though.



Yes, typically in my field salaries stay constant after a point while the bonuses vary.

This! I think you should be counseling us on how to get into your field!

 

[comp_manif]

I just want to quickly chime in. I'm 30 years old, and in doing the career shift into medicine as of now (I'm currently an RN).

If you don't like what you are doing, and you are passionate about pursuing medicine then do it.

In all honesty, it's not about the money. You have to want to do it and you have to be passionate about it. It's not for chumps. There is something insanely rewarding about devoting your life to a skill set and becoming an expert in that area. Oh, and guess what, you get to help people in the process.

So, asking a forum, should I do this or, is this the right choice, all boils down to you. How badly do you want it? Depending on that answer will determine if it is the right choice, no matter the circumstances.

You're right, and I've already justified in my mind why I want to make the change. It isn't that I dislike my job (in fact I love it, maths is what I've done all my life) but I am quite attracted to this field (and have a good idea of what it is actually like, as 6 of my parents/grandparents/uncles and my brother are doctors).

Like I mentioned in the OP, the 2 things I'm concerned about are 1) if it is very unlikely for me to reach my current income (I understand that it is very competitive to get into those certain specialties, but that's pretty much been my life with IMO, IPhO, ACM ICPC, Putnam, etc - I was spending 7 hours each night in high school reading Rudin and Dummit and Foote so I'm not really concerned about the studying commitment). I know I'd be losing a couple mn as far as opportunity cost goes, and I'm fine with that, but still concerned about what happens after.

And 2) if the workload during medical school and residency (and afterward) is too overwhelming.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

You're right, and I've already justified in my mind why I want to make the change. It isn't that I dislike my job (in fact I love it, maths is what I've done all my life) but I am quite attracted to this field (and have a good idea of what it is actually like, as 6 of my parents/grandparents/uncles and my brother are doctors).

Like I mentioned in the OP, the 2 things I'm concerned about are 1) if it is very unlikely for me to reach my current income (I understand that it is very competitive to get into those certain specialties, but that's pretty much been my life with IMO, IPhO, ACM ICPC, Putnam, etc - I was spending 7 hours each night in high school reading Rudin and Dummit and Foote so I'm not really concerned about the studying commitment). I know I'd be losing a couple mn as far as opportunity cost goes, and I'm fine with that, but still concerned about what happens after.

And 2) if the workload during medical school and residency (and afterward) is too overwhelming.

Ok. You have clearly done your homework, and the math for med school, min 250 k for med school and expenses, min of 7 yrs lost income, totaling over 5 million , and min chance of entering us med school according to other posters. Apply to Canadian schools and then try to train in America for residency. I personally would stay in my job and try to make a difference in the world in other ways. But, you know what's in your heart, so with all the information offered by other posters fresh in your mind... follow your heart. Good luck and best wishes