Is it Always Good to be Poor?

[kypdurron5]

Ok, well obviously not...but I'm talking about medical school applications here. What I'm getting at is this...medical schools supposedly love a disadvantaged applicant, whether for economic, socioeconomic, or other reasons. That's all fine and good for primary care and rural medicine-oriented schools...but what about big research institutions? Surely they'd be more interested in an advantaged student than a disadvantaged student, no? Otherwise there's no such thing as an "advantaged" student... Obviously medicine is different than other professional/graduate schools...but I would think (especially) research-oriented schools would be more interested in spectacularly advantaged applicants from wealthy backgrounds, as they could be more likely to shoot for a high paying career/specialty which in turn could come back to the school through donations, scholarships, etc. All schools pay lip service to diversity of all kinds, but really, how many students could they possibly give special consideration to for economic or URM status before the class is full (of only disadvantaged students)?

I'm just concerned that if I talk about my extremely meager background I might end up hurting myself, and actually be worse off than if I continued to masquerade as an every day middle/upper-middle class applicant. I've applied two years in a row, highlighting in my personal statement why I want to be a doctor, what lead to my decision, and the clinical experiences I've had. I've never really approached the topic of economics...I guess I've always assumed my academic performance and EC's should say everything about me that's worth being said. I'm not looking for special consideration either....it's just that my economic background explains several key things including 1) my fundamental desire to help others and my appreciation for the uninsured, 2) my choice of undergraduate school and 3) why I had to put a greater focus on compensation based employment vs. volunteering, etc. Don't get me wrong, I don't feel disadvantaged enough to actually declare myself a disadvantaged applicant, but I do have some key things I'm considering talking about this year that I think would really change the way I'm being perceived. The question is- would I be going from bad to worse?

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[blues91776]

Ok, well obviously not...but I'm talking about medical school applications here. What I'm getting at is this...medical schools supposedly love a disadvantaged applicant, whether for economic, socioeconomic, or other reasons. That's all fine and good for primary care and rural medicine-oriented schools...but what about big research institutions? Surely they'd be more interested in an advantaged student than a disadvantaged student, no? Otherwise there's no such thing as an "advantaged" student... Obviously medicine is different than other professional/graduate schools...but I would think (especially) research-oriented schools would be more interested in spectacularly advantaged applicants from wealthy backgrounds, as they could be more likely to shoot for a high paying career/specialty which in turn could come back to the school through donations, scholarships, etc. All schools pay lip service to diversity of all kinds, but really, how many students could they possibly give special consideration to for economic or URM status before the class is full (of only disadvantaged students)?

Your answer: No.

I wonder if there's a lot more to your question. Your post can come off the wrong way, btw. But I think...I know what you're trying to say.

 

[pyrois]

The purpose of URM status and advantages for economically disadvantaged students is simple.

Person A:

Took a Princeton course + 60 hours of private one on one tutoring over the summer before taking the MCAT.

MCAT - 32

Person B:

Borrowed a Kaplan book from the library and did practice problems over the summer while working a full time job during weekdays and catering over the weekends. After the 8 hour MCAT exam, he immediately takes the bus to his next catering gig.

MCAT - 32



Person A:

Went to private elem, middle, high school, college. When he's in trouble in class, he gets a personal counselor to help motivate him. Parents pay for all expenses:

GPA - 3.7

Person B:

Worked 40 hours/week while taking classes. When he's having in trouble in class, his boss calls him in to work overtime or he loses his job that he needs to continue attending school. All of his money goes to his parents to take care of his 2 younger brothers.

GPA - 3.7



Person A:

Decides to go abroad one summer and volunteer in Africa. His parents give him $5000 for a plane ticket, supplies, and general spending money when he arrives to make sure he isn't too uncomfortable in the third world country.

EC - Clinical Volunteer work in Africa

Person B:

Decides to go abroad one summer and volunteer in Africa. He calls and emails family and friends from previous organizations he has helped with for donations. On top of his job and academic responsibilities, he does bake sales every Friday on campus to scrounge for extra cash. He has just enough money for the plane ticket and goes to Africa with new organization that is cheap because they have not yet established much infrastructure.

EC - Clinical Volunteer work in Africa.




So, to answer your question, no it's not good to be poor. But if you ARE poor, and somehow you still managed to survive the rigors of college and work and still come out on top, then yes that will ALWAYS be good in the eyes of someone interviewing you for grad school.

They know that, compared to another person who may look identical on paper, you achieved your accomplishments under even more extreme situations. As a result, in the future "Person B" will easily outperform "Person A" if the financial restraints are removed.

You mentioned that a person from a wealthy background may aim for higher paying/more prestigious jobs. This is actually the opposite of what actually occurs. Many wealthy children don't care about how much their future jobs pay because they've got millions of dollars waiting for them in a trust fund that will ensure their future survival.

A person having lived a life of poverty, and whose family may have mortgaged their house to send him through college, will aim for the highest paying/most prestigious job possible in order to pay back their parents and make all of that sacrifice "worth it."

 

[AmoryBlaine]

To the OP:

If working during undergrad caused you to get lower grades just mention something about it in your PS.

I'm not at all sure that being from a lower SES lends any more credibility to your desire to help people. I'm not trying to be nasty by saying that, but one of the most caring and giving people in my class is old school rich. Not like "daddy is a doctor" rich but like "where do you summer?" rich.

I guess what I'm saying is that maybe your application has some other problems that are not coming through in your OP...

 

[public5656]

I agree with most everything you said. I recently quit a job because it was too much for me to handle when taking 15 credits (didn't have enough time to study and do homework). I just don't know how people who are getting a Biology or some other science degree can work full-time and still do great (unless they are not full-time students).

I started out college at an community college because I didn't have the stats to get into a four year university (no need to bash me for this..if you do then you are just a prick who needs a slap in the face) and had to work 20 hours a week to have money to eat and pay for gas and pay for my car loan (how else could I drive around in a rural community). I didn't do great in my first two years of college, but I still had a B- GPA average.

I then transferred to a four year university with a sophomore status. I got a work study job but was not able to work another 10 hour a week job because nobody would hire me (for jobs that are worth working at) because I could only work two days a week because of my class schedule. So I have had a really hard time making ends meet finically. So I took out a 20,000 dollar private loan so I could get through school finically as long as I could. I paid for my room and board for my first year at the university with that loan and paid off my car loan and paid some bills for my fiancé as well. So that 20,000 dollars lasted me 14 months. Now I'm back to nothing. I refused to take out another big loan this school year and I was able to make it threw somehow. Well, I actually do know how I made it through. Three weeks into the school year (junior year...or you can say this school year) my checking account was down to 15 dollars. That is all of the money I had. So I was getting really desperate and was looking into purchasing a credit card just so I could live. You can't live if you don't have any money for food.

So a couple of more weeks go by, doing good in my classes at the semester start, but then I fished really poor in my classes. So 5 weeks into the fall semester my checking account went into the negative category because a check I wrote out 3 months ago had just gone through. So now I was -100 dollars with my checking account. I didn't have any money to drive to find a job. So a miracle happened two days later after my checking account went into the negatives. I was offered a Smart Grant for 2,000 dollars. I cried at my dorm room so hard because I was so happy (I did have a work study job that helped me get through with purchasing milk and shampoo).

Since I had no money in the bank to drive, I had to walk 6 miles to get my bank to cash the check. Unfortunately I had finance charges to pay because my checking account was in the negatives. So that 2,000 dollar grant was little less then 2,000 dollars.

Now that I had enough money to pay the rest of my 500 dollars I still had left in tuition cost after finical aide went through, I was able to pay that off. Well, by this time the semester was half way done and my grades took a hard hit at the middle of the semester because I could not concentrate on school when my checking account was in the negatives and I had no way of getting a job without people driving me around to put apply for jobs. So I was able to make it through the fall semester and was able to make it back home for Christmas. By the time Christmas was done and it was time to get back to school for the spring semester, I had a total of 75 dollars left in my checking account. I made over 300 dollars from Christmas to the start of the spring semester by doing odd crap around the community (shoveling snow, moving furniture for old people, etc.).

So I finished the fall semester with a C in botany, a C in Organic Chemistry, A B in genetics, and an A in Medical Ethics. With as much stress as I had to go through in that fall semester I consider it a success for how good I did. Do you all know what it feels like having to eat spaghetti every meal for a week straight?

So after I got that 2,000 grant in the spring semester I went to look for a job. So I got a lab tech job at a factory working 26 hours a week and pulled in 1,000 dollars in a month. Even though I made a lot of money during that one month time period, I didn't have enough time to study and do homework (I'm a person that needs a lot of study time to do good in school).

So I quit that job and have 1,000 dollars in my checking account at this time. So last week I was offered a full-time position at my work study job for the summer. So I'm really happy that I have a full-time job this summer with flexible hours.

You might be asking yourself why I couldn't just get a job during the night. Well, I volunteer three nights a week at a crisis center and I also volunteer 6 hours a week at a hospital right down the street from my college (no jobs at the hospital fit my hours of availability, dang it).

So this spring semester should be my best semester yet in college to this date. I should finish with a C in Organic Chemistry 2, A in Embryology, A/B in Abnormal Psychology, A in independent study project, and A in Biotechnology.

My roommates are the opposite of me. One of my roommates use to live in Los Angelas until his family moved to the city where he goes to college with me. His parents gave him 5,000 dollars to just spend on whatever he wants to. This **** head spent the 5,000 dollars in two months!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I flat out told him how much of an idiot he is because that is just plain stupid and it shows that you don't know how to spend money wisely. Now three weeks ago from yesterday his parents bought him a 15,000 dollar car. So you can see that the parents are part of the problem here.

I told my parents about me being in the negatives in my checking account and just told me to find a way to dig myself out. They didn't give me a single dollar.

So at least I have a work study job where I work 10 hours a week.

I'm really happy about having the chance to have a full-time job this summer so I can afford applications for next year.

 

[beauregard]

It kind of sounds like you might have your priorities messed up. (and no, my parents don't pay for everything. I have 2 jobs and work about 30 hours a week most weeks)

Maybe you should take the time where you're volunteering and work at a paying job so you won't be so stressed out that you can't study.

This is to the poster above me and not the OP

 

[public5656]

The volunteer work is for my career. So I do have my priorities correct.

 

[Tired Pigeon]

Ok, well obviously not...but I'm talking about medical school applications here. What I'm getting at is this...medical schools supposedly love a disadvantaged applicant, whether for economic, socioeconomic, or other reasons. That's all fine and good for primary care and rural medicine-oriented schools...but what about big research institutions? Surely they'd be more interested in an advantaged student than a disadvantaged student, no? Otherwise there's no such thing as an "advantaged" student... Obviously medicine is different than other professional/graduate schools...but I would think (especially) research-oriented schools would be more interested in spectacularly advantaged applicants from wealthy backgrounds, as they could be more likely to shoot for a high paying career/specialty which in turn could come back to the school through donations, scholarships, etc. All schools pay lip service to diversity of all kinds, but really, how many students could they possibly give special consideration to for economic or URM status before the class is full (of only disadvantaged students)?

I'm just concerned that if I talk about my extremely meager background I might end up hurting myself, and actually be worse off than if I continued to masquerade as an every day middle/upper-middle class applicant. I've applied two years in a row, highlighting in my personal statement why I want to be a doctor, what lead to my decision, and the clinical experiences I've had. I've never really approached the topic of economics...I guess I've always assumed my academic performance and EC's should say everything about me that's worth being said. I'm not looking for special consideration either....it's just that my economic background explains several key things including 1) my fundamental desire to help others and my appreciation for the uninsured, 2) my choice of undergraduate school and 3) why I had to put a greater focus on compensation based employment vs. volunteering, etc. Don't get me wrong, I don't feel disadvantaged enough to actually declare myself a disadvantaged applicant, but I do have some key things I'm considering talking about this year that I think would really change the way I'm being perceived. The question is- would I be going from bad to worse?

Most of the time, how would a school even know if an applicant is from a wealthy backgroung (if they wanted to give those people priority, which I don't think they do)? AMCAS does ask about 'disadvantaged' status, but beyond that nobody's asking if you're average middle-class or completely loaded.

I think talking about challenges you overcame (as outlined above) makes a much more appealing story anyway. You will not be perceived as 'less than' because you weren't born with the proverbial silver spoon in your mouth; in fact, I think those silver-spoon applicants would do well to downplay their privileges and advantages so it doesn't appear that they 'had it too easy' and aren't prepared for the hard work of med school.

Bottom line is that stereotypes are poor predictors of individual strengths, weaknesses, and characteristics. That's why they want to meet YOU, in an interview - it's your individuality they're interested in, not your socioeconomic status.

 

[omegaxx]

Bottom line is that stereotypes are poor predictors of individual strengths, weaknesses, and characteristics. That's why they want to meet YOU, in an interview - it's your individuality they're interested in, not your socioeconomic status.

Douche. Being poor is also a subjective term unless you are talking about extremes. I'm thinking of immigrant families in particular, who can miraculously get 2 dollar's worth for every dollar they spend.

 

[Tired Pigeon]

Douche. Being poor is also a subjective term unless you are talking about extremes. I'm thinking of immigrant families in particular, who can miraculously get 2 dollar's worth for every dollar they spend.

Why are you calling me a douche?

 

[paki20]

Also adcoms often ask you what your parents do for a living at the interview..so there is a way they can tell..obviously someone whose parents work as a clerk at a gas station will be at a disadvantage than someone whose father is the CEO of Proctor and Gamble (the son of the CEO of P&G goes to my school thats why i use that example)..if you don't feel truly disadvantaged then i would just SUBTLELY mention it during your interview if they ever ask you what your parents do for a living or what your biggest challenge was (i.e. working full-time to support family while taking classes and trying maintain a 3.6+ GPA)

 

[shevie]

so are you kindof put at a disadvantage if you come from money then? I mean what if ur parents didnt spend thousands of dollars on corrections counselors, you graduated first in your hs class (sorry all-private school), did fine in throughout college sans tutors (one for orgo but it was a friend and free), didnt go on goodwill missions to africa with ten grand to spend, but just are blessed to know that your parents will be financing your medical education so in state vs out of state isnt an issue for you...shoud you be penalized for that? Will medical schools look down on the fact that YOURE not worried about taking out loans and paying them back? Am I better off lying and telling them that IM paying for it, not my parents, so they dont think I have everything coming to me? I DONT-my parents didnt raise us like that - my dad still prefers to drive a taurus to work over his more expensive sports car because he doesnt want to show off (pays off big when i come home on break and thats the only car in the garage!!!!!!) --but education has always been important to my parents and theyve always told my siblings and me that they will finance it all the way through. Am I screwed?

 

[Dr.Inviz]

Ok, well obviously not...but I'm talking about medical school applications here. What I'm getting at is this...medical schools supposedly love a disadvantaged applicant, whether for economic, socioeconomic, or other reasons. That's all fine and good for primary care and rural medicine-oriented schools...but what about big research institutions? Surely they'd be more interested in an advantaged student than a disadvantaged student, no? Otherwise there's no such thing as an "advantaged" student... Obviously medicine is different than other professional/graduate schools...but I would think (especially) research-oriented schools would be more interested in spectacularly advantaged applicants from wealthy backgrounds, as they could be more likely to shoot for a high paying career/specialty which in turn could come back to the school through donations, scholarships, etc. All schools pay lip service to diversity of all kinds, but really, how many students could they possibly give special consideration to for economic or URM status before the class is full (of only disadvantaged students)?

I'm just concerned that if I talk about my extremely meager background I might end up hurting myself, and actually be worse off than if I continued to masquerade as an every day middle/upper-middle class applicant. I've applied two years in a row, highlighting in my personal statement why I want to be a doctor, what lead to my decision, and the clinical experiences I've had. I've never really approached the topic of economics...I guess I've always assumed my academic performance and EC's should say everything about me that's worth being said. I'm not looking for special consideration either....it's just that my economic background explains several key things including 1) my fundamental desire to help others and my appreciation for the uninsured, 2) my choice of undergraduate school and 3) why I had to put a greater focus on compensation based employment vs. volunteering, etc. Don't get me wrong, I don't feel disadvantaged enough to actually declare myself a disadvantaged applicant, but I do have some key things I'm considering talking about this year that I think would really change the way I'm being perceived. The question is- would I be going from bad to worse?

And ... you are an advisor??

I guess the only real requirement to be an advisor/moderator is to be a paid member and pretend like you're not a tool. G'ah, embarrassing.

 

[pcguy2]

And ... you are an advisor??

I guess the only real requirement to be an advisor/moderator is to be a paid member and pretend like you're not a tool. G'ah, embarrassing.

OH SNAP!

that was a burn if i ever saw one

 

[kypdurron5]

so are you kindof put at a disadvantage if you come from money then? I mean what if ur parents didnt spend thousands of dollars on corrections counselors, you graduated first in your hs class (sorry all-private school), did fine in throughout college sans tutors (one for orgo but it was a friend and free), didnt go on goodwill missions to africa with ten grand to spend, but just are blessed to know that your parents will be financing your medical education so in state vs out of state isnt an issue for you...shoud you be penalized for that? Will medical schools look down on the fact that YOURE not worried about taking out loans and paying them back? Am I better off lying and telling them that IM paying for it, not my parents, so they dont think I have everything coming to me? I DONT-my parents didnt raise us like that - my dad still prefers to drive a taurus to work over his more expensive sports car because he doesnt want to show off (pays off big when i come home on break and thats the only car in the garage!!!!!!) --but education has always been important to my parents and theyve always told my siblings and me that they will finance it all the way through. Am I screwed?

There's never a good reason to lie, although there's also no reason that you can't just leave some of that off your application. I've mentioned paying for undergrad, but that's the only reason the subject came up during my interviews. You might be asked about your background, but it's completely up to you how much you share with them...and if you're uncomfortable talking about something specific (like a followup question) you can say so. If you do talk about this stuff, I think it's a good idea to repeatedly use phrases that show you recognize your privilege and appreciate it.

 

[baylormed]

If you guys don't like your lives of privilege because you think it might hurt your chances, a lot of us are willing to trade with you anytime. Let me know when you'll be moving in so that I can make my plans and let my parents know, 'kay?

 

[Dr.Inviz]

If you guys don't like your lives of privilege because you think it might hurt your chances, a lot of us are willing to trade with you anytime. Let me know when you'll be moving in so that I can make my plans and let my parents know, 'kay?

I second that.

OMG I'm so rich, I can't get into med school -- I have to compete with females, URMs, and now poor people .. gosh, I hate my gender, my race ... and now my wealth!

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I second that.

OMG I'm so rich, I can't get into med school -- I have to compete with females, URMs, and now poor people .. gosh, I hate my gender, my race ... and now my wealth!

Really, I'm crying over here. It's the saddest story I ever heard. Why do they make it so hard on the rich folks?

 

[baylormed]

Really, I'm crying over here. It's the saddest story I ever heard. Why do they make it so hard on the rich folks?

I know, this is the lamest complaint I've ever heard on SDN!

"I'm so rich that it might hurt my chances of getting into medical school! Oh, whatever will I do?!?"

Cry me a river.

 

[Dr.Inviz]

I know, this is the lamest complaint I've ever heard on SDN!

"I'm so rich that it might hurt my chances of getting into medical school! Oh, whatever will I do?!?"

Cry me a river.

Down right pathetic.

Dumb rich kid: "I can't believe I got turned down because I'm too damned rich!!"

Response: "No stupid, you were turned down for your grades, or lack of them."

 

[jeniffer lopez]

Also adcoms often ask you what your parents do for a living at the interview..so there is a way they can tell..obviously someone whose parents work as a clerk at a gas station will be at a disadvantage than someone whose father is the CEO of Proctor and Gamble (the son of the CEO of P&G goes to my school thats why i use that example)..if you don't feel truly disadvantaged then i would just SUBTLELY mention it during your interview if they ever ask you what your parents do for a living or what your biggest challenge was (i.e. working full-time to support family while taking classes and trying maintain a 3.6+ GPA)

My dad is a clerk at a gas station. My mom is also a clerk. I did fine during the application process, but boy before that (getting into college, paying for college, paying for applications) was a real nightmare, so I think it evens out at the end. Other people did not have to suffer as much as I did, but they did not do as well at the end. So, in other words, count your challenges as blessings if you can overcome them. Schools really respect that.

 

[bigDee]

Explain how spending $5k on junk in two months is stupid.

 

[Nasrudin]

I think the op's position is actually interesting. There is likely no greater predictor as to your chances for financial success in life than the degree of wealth of your parents. Now, medicine might be the liberalized exception, but nevertheless, it does not operate in a vacuum.

I think having to work your way through school full-time puts you at a huge disadvantage, personally. Volunteering, studying abroad, research, and all the the various trappings of EC's are all the result of resources in excess. Even young URM's at my school get exclusive offers on a variety of NIH funded projects so even if they are disadvantaged resources are granted to them.

For just an average working guy you have only the chance to say. "I had to work." Not a very a exciting statement. I can't tell you about the countless hours spent in Dr. so-n-so's lab or studying abroad or saving the world from oppression or what have you. I can tell you about the smell of hot tar on a roof in 105 degree heat or pain in my back from lifting obese people out of wheel chairs, etc. It's a one trick pony for the working guy. You only have the option of counting on the working guy who went before you for understanding the limitations of your application. The other pricks likely don't care.

 

[Dookter]

I think the op's position is actually interesting. There is likely no greater predictor as to your chances for financial success in life than the degree of wealth of your parents. Now, medicine might be the liberalized exception, but nevertheless, it does not operate in a vacuum.

I think having to work your way through school full-time puts you at a huge disadvantage, personally. Volunteering, studying abroad, research, and all the the various trappings of EC's are all the result of resources in excess. Even young URM's at my school get exclusive offers on a variety of NIH funded projects so even if they are disadvantaged resources are granted to them.

For just an average working guy you have only the chance to say. "I had to work." Not a very a exciting statement. I can't tell you about the countless hours spent in Dr. so-n-so's lab or studying abroad or saving the world from oppression or what have you. I can tell you about the smell of hot tar on a roof in 105 degree heat or pain in my back from lifting obese people out of wheel chairs, etc. It's a one trick pony for the working guy. You only have the option of counting on the working guy who went before you for understanding the limitations of your application. The other pricks likely don't care.

Yep, I agree with this. Being poor is never good--for anything. Being wealthy is universally better [unless we're talking finaid here...but that is a whole different discussion].

OP, just be who you are and tell people about it in your applications and in your interviews. There is no point in trying to analyze the system. All people are different. If you grew up in a working class environment and get an interviewer that never had that experience, you will not understand each other fully. If you grew up in a wealthy environment and get an interviewer that didn't, you won't fully understand each other either. In the end all you can do is be yourself.

 

[PunjabiCurry]

It is good to be a poor URM in some ways: Easy admissions and free money for applications and MCAT

However, I would rather grow up a rich kid than to grow up in a neighborhood with much drugs floating around...

 

[chickenlittle84]

I think you should be honest about your experiences and how they have made you into the person/future doctor that you are today. I don't think anyone will look down on the fact that you have worked your way through school - it is something to be admired and respected. I heard one dean of a top 10 med school speak and he said they ask about parental occupation specifically because they want to know about the people who had to work their way through school, etc, and they want to make sure that is taken into account in the admissions process if these individuals have had less research, less community service, etc.