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Is it because I'm black?

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TheFamilyDoc

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So many SDNers with suspicion towards URM admissions when there are hardly any of them in the path to medicine to begin with. I mean, how many AAs have you interviewed with? They are stealing your spots...right? :rolleyes:
 

beBrave

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You could not be more wrong.

I wish you were right but there's simply no magical moment where people stop noticing race.

In a very ugly way; it matters more professionally than a lot of people would ever care to admit.

Who cares, it doesn't matter how you get in, it only matters that you get in and what you do once you get in.
 

MedicalAuthor

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Who cares, it doesn't matter how you get in, it only matters that you get in and what you do once you get in.

Unless you kidnapped the Dean of Admissions and persuaded him/her through torture.

If you did that, I'd have to strongly question if you should be there.
 

iave9963

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So many SDNers with suspicion towards URM admissions when there are hardly any of them in the path to medicine to begin with. I mean, how many AAs have you interviewed with? They are stealing your spots...right? :rolleyes:

Shhhh, Santa is real, tooth fairies leave money under pillows, humans only Use 10% of their brains, Michael Jackson is white and URMs steal spots.
 

Chuchunezumis

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Shhhh, Santa is real, tooth fairies leave money under pillows, humans only Use 10% of their brains, Michael Jackson is white and URMs steal spots.

Being black is worth probably 8+ MCAT points relative to being Asian. The fact that few blacks are able to get into medical school despite a large advantage doesn't make the policy less racist, nor does it imply people who think the policy is unfair believe Santa is real.
 

iave9963

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Being black is worth probably 8+ MCAT points relative to being Asian. The fact that few blacks are able to get into medical school despite a large advantage doesn't make the policy less racist, nor does it imply people who think the policy is unfair believe Santa is real.

:thumbup: I was just referring to people's belief that URMs are stealing spots. so......
 

Espadaleader

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It looks like I have to get into attack mode. Blacks have the lowest acceptance rates for MD schools. Trust me, no one gets a freebie in medicine because they must at a minimum past boards. Please ORMs, blame yourselves from taking your own spots.
 

Espadaleader

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Shame on URMs that disparage affirmative action, the same program you're benefiting from.
 
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deleted480308

It looks like I have to get into attack mode. Blacks have the lowest acceptance rates for MD schools. Trust me, no one gets a freebie in medicine because they must at a minimum past boards. Please ORMs, blame yourselves from taking your own spots.

There has been a lot of bitterness in the med school hopefuls about urm policies and it has caused people to say some dumb things. Things that are hurtful to people and I get you are upset. But if you feel "attack mode" is necessary be a little more relevant with your stats. If you take 4 applicants with identical scores (1 asian, 1 hispanic, 1 black, and 1 white) and they all apply to the exact same schools....the black student is more likely to get in. There are a number of arguments for why that is ok, and they have varying degrees of logic to them depending on your viewpoint but that is a very relevant statistical point that supporters of urm policies need to come to grips with...
 

BLACKMD

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Well, looks like ill be claiming my URM status then.
 
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deleted480308

Well, looks like ill be claiming my URM status then.

If you have an edge you should use it while it exists. By all means, try to vote it out or end it if you think it's unfair...but we would all "cash that check" if it was being written to us. Don't let anyone fool you into thinking we wouldn't.
 

MedicalAuthor

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There has been a lot of bitterness in the med school hopefuls about urm policies and it has caused people to say some dumb things. Things that are hurtful to people and I get you are upset. But if you feel "attack mode" is necessary be a little more relevant with your stats. If you take 4 applicants with identical scores (1 asian, 1 hispanic, 1 black, and 1 white) and they all apply to the exact same schools....the black student is more likely to get in. There are a number of arguments for why that is ok, and they have varying degrees of logic to them depending on your viewpoint but that is a very relevant statistical point that supporters of urm policies need to come to grips with...

I'd argue, though, that if you take 100 candidates of each race and all the black people have higher everything, and they are all competing for the same 100 spots, the amount of black people in the class will still end up being what schools usually shoot for. I.E., I think schools try to get a minimum, which can also hurt AA applicants if a school already has as many black people as it wants to be 'diverse'.

I'd also argue that if you take 1 asian, 1 hispanic, 1 black, and 1 white person born in identical neighborhoods, the black person will NOT be the most likely to end up in med school.

I realize all my statements are not factually based, just fanning the flames.

Also...WTF is ORM? Over-Represented Minority? Haha.
 
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iave9963

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If you have an edge you should use it while it exists. By all means, try to vote it out or end it if you think it's unfair...but we would all "cash that check" if it was being written to us. Don't let anyone fool you into thinking we wouldn't.

:thumbup: Finally someone being honest. All of my ORM friends say that if the tables were turned they would apply with AA or any other advantage and not feel anyway about it.
 
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:thumbup: Finally someone being honest. All of my ORM friends say that if the tables were turned they would apply with AA or any other advantage and not feel anyway about it.

Without question.....for instance I think a URM advantage is as silly as a non-trad with kids advantage being created (that non-trad thing is imaginary by the way). I would vote against it, but I would check that box without flinching
 

Chuchunezumis

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I'd also argue that if you take 1 asian, 1 hispanic, 1 black, and 1 white person born in identical neighborhoods, the black person will NOT be the most likely to end up in med school.

I agree with this, and I'd also argue that the black person is most likely to end up being a great athlete. That doesn't mean schools should have policies which discriminate against black athletes because they're over represented in sports. Even if a study showed a few Asian athletes would encourage Asians to play more sports and be more active, that wouldn't justify racist policies IMO.
 

MedicalAuthor

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Athletes don't save lives. One of the reasons for the push to get more URM is the UR part. Though black people make up a relatively large percentage of chronic-care patients, the physician numbers don't near match-up. It SHOULDN'T matter if the physician who takes care of you looks like you/can relate to you, but it does.

I'm not going to not go to a basketball game cus I can't relate to Jeremy Lin.

So the question is, what makes a good physician? If you can point to research that says black physicians have worse outcomes than other races in the same field, please point me there. Otherwise it seems that the push to actively take URMs isn't negatively affecting physician quality even if the standards are different. Thought it does contribute to diversity in physicians for a diverse patient population.

So I kindly reject your comparison to the NBA. I can see your point, but I don't think having a diverse NBA is as important about a diverse physician pool.

Also, Mount Sinai should do away with its HuMed program. Those kids don't even take the MCAT! Worse.Physicians.Ever!
 

TheFamilyDoc

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I'd argue, though, that if you take 100 candidates of each race and all the black people have higher everything, and they are all competing for the same 100 spots, the amount of black people in the class will still end up being what schools usually shoot for. I.E., I think schools try to get a minimum, which can also hurt AA applicants if a school already has as many black people as it wants to be 'diverse'.

I'd also argue that if you take 1 asian, 1 hispanic, 1 black, and 1 white person born in identical neighborhoods, the black person will NOT be the most likely to end up in med school.

I realize all my statements are not factually based, just fanning the flames.

Also...WTF is ORM? Over-Represented Minority? Haha.

Overrepresented majority ;)
 

Espadaleader

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There has been a lot of bitterness in the med school hopefuls about urm policies and it has caused people to say some dumb things. Things that are hurtful to people and I get you are upset. But if you feel "attack mode" is necessary be a little more relevant with your stats. If you take 4 applicants with identical scores (1 asian, 1 hispanic, 1 black, and 1 white) and they all apply to the exact same schools....the black student is more likely to get in. There are a number of arguments for why that is ok, and they have varying degrees of logic to them depending on your viewpoint but that is a very relevant statistical point that supporters of urm policies need to come to grips with...

The problem with your logic is that there is not enough black applicants with qualified stats to get in. That's why blacks still have the lowest acceptance rate of all groups.

Listen, blacks are not taking seats. Okay, lets do an analysis from AAMC Table 25.

In three years only 456 black applicants had average GPA (3.6) and MCAT (30) or above, which averages about 152 students per year with a 90% acceptance rate at least.

In the same three years 9150 asian applicants applied with the same metrics and the acceptance rates went as low as 69%.

The reason why black students are NOT taking seats from ORMs is because most black applicants just dont have stats good enough to pass USMLE.

In three years 21692 of 29346 asians were 30+ on MCAT (73% of all asian applicants)

In the same three years 1127 of 10746 blacks were 30+ (10% of all black applicants)

asians overall acceptance rate is 44.5%

blacks overall acceptance rate is 39.4%

roughly 9782 asians apply every year to medical school vs. roughly 3582 yearly for blacks.

Remember blacks only make up 3% of the nations physicians. 3%! Have any of you ever seen a medical school class? I dont see blacks taking over anytime soon.

Yes, black students with 3.5+ and 30+ MCAT are highly sought after but because 90% of black students have MCAT scores under 30, it is difficult to fill the spots with qualified students.

This is the reason even WITH AFFIRMATIVE ACTION and all of the minority centered programs blacks only make up 6% of the nations physicians!!! 6%!!! Why is it such a big deal?

Final points: one only qualified applicants matriculate into medical school. Everyone accepted is qualified.

Whites and Asians are the highest acceptances rates, which is contrary to the belief of many.

The majority of black applicants are not competitive enough complete medical school.

Chances are you're safe, if you do not agree please visit AAMC Table 25.

By the way roughly 26,791 white applicants apply every year.

Its crazy that Whites and Asians (the two groups the make up 75% of all applicants) consistently blame blacks for taking their spots when chances are you lost your seat to another white or asian is beyond me.

The reason why I support affirmative action is because is helps students and TRUST ME its not treading in your way. Like for real, how much lower of a percentage can blacks be of the nations physicians? Combined blacks, latinos, native americans only make up 12% of the nations physicians when they make up 30% of the country. Whites and Asians make up 87% of the nations physicians.

If affirmative action went away that would be overkill. URMs would just disappear lol.

There are a lot of societal issues effecting URM groups that are keeping them out of schools. Trust me, when numbers hit parity I will be the first one to phase out these programs. Until then stop all of the hate on the forum.

We are the leaders of tomorrow and the best and brightest. All of you will be my peers in medicine. No need for hatred or resentment. Right?
Kudos to those on the forum that are in support.
 

beBrave

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The problem with your logic is that there is not enough black applicants with qualified stats to get in. That's why blacks still have the lowest acceptance rate of all groups.

Listen, blacks are not taking seats. Okay, lets do an analysis from AAMC Table 25.

In three years only 456 black applicants had average GPA (3.6) and MCAT (30) or above, which averages about 152 students per year with a 90% acceptance rate at least.

In the same three years 9150 asian applicants applied with the same metrics and the acceptance rates went as low as 69%.

The reason why black students are NOT taking seats from ORMs is because most black applicants just dont have stats good enough to pass USMLE.

In three years 21692 of 29346 asians were 30+ on MCAT (73% of all asian applicants)

In the same three years 1127 of 10746 blacks were 30+ (10% of all black applicants)

asians overall acceptance rate is 44.5%

blacks overall acceptance rate is 39.4%

roughly 9782 asians apply every year to medical school vs. roughly 3582 yearly for blacks.

Remember blacks only make up 3% of the nations physicians. 3%! Have any of you ever seen a medical school class? I dont see blacks taking over anytime soon.

Yes, black students with 3.5+ and 30+ MCAT are highly sought after but because 90% of black students have MCAT scores under 30, it is difficult to fill the spots with qualified students.

This is the reason even WITH AFFIRMATIVE ACTION and all of the minority centered programs blacks only make up 6% of the nations physicians!!! 6%!!! Why is it such a big deal?

Final points: one only qualified applicants matriculate into medical school. Everyone accepted is qualified.

Whites and Asians are the highest acceptances rates, which is contrary to the belief of many.

The majority of black applicants are not competitive enough complete medical school.

Chances are you're safe, if you do not agree please visit AAMC Table 25.

By the way roughly 26,791 white applicants apply every year.

Its crazy that Whites and Asians (the two groups the make up 75% of all applicants) consistently blame blacks for taking their spots when chances are you lost your seat to another white or asian is beyond me.

The reason why I support affirmative action is because is helps students and TRUST ME its not treading in your way. Like for real, how much lower of a percentage can blacks be of the nations physicians? Combined blacks, latinos, native americans only make up 12% of the nations physicians when they make up 30% of the country. Whites and Asians make up 87% of the nations physicians.

If affirmative action went away that would be overkill. URMs would just disappear lol.

There are a lot of societal issues effecting URM groups that are keeping them out of schools. Trust me, when numbers hit parity I will be the first one to phase out these programs. Until then stop all of the hate on the forum.

We are the leaders of tomorrow and the best and brightest. All of you will be my peers in medicine. No need for hatred or resentment. Right?
Kudos to those on the forum that are in support.

The truth is that based on these stats, a good number of blacks simply don't apply. When you quantify the number of blacks that actually get accepted to their white counterparts, the actual number of acceptances may not be significantly different. The truth is, many blacks simply do not consider applying to Medical school. Forget about the grades, its one thing applying and another thing attending and based on the numbers, it looks like many don't even try.
 
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KnuxNole

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The thing is..most whites and asians who fail to get an acceptance don't actually blame URMs for the reason. If someone honestly does this...well they need to look into their own application instead of making excuses...kinda like running away from their own problems :p
 

MedicalAuthor

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I'd post that gif of the rock chewing gum and clapping, but I'm really lazy.
 

beBrave

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The thing is..most whites and asians who fail to get an acceptance don't actually blame URMs for the reason. If someone honestly does this...well they need to look into their own application instead of making excuses...kinda like running away from their own problems :p

I think that the chip on the shoulder mentality limits blacks in this country. Constantly feeling as though they are inadequate when attempting to do something other than play sports. The truth is many Asians, Indian's and Whites will start to consider other options when they don't get accepted; they don't just give up and they don't blame it on their race or inequalities. I don't think many blacks are willing to make the sacrifices necessary for medical school; It's a rough journey for the average person.
 

Caliber

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i wanna first thank most of you in this thread for being such great sports about such touchy topics...i was expecting a bunch of hurt feelings on both ends since i've seen threads like this one play out many times too much i would say.

secondly, as a black woman and rising pre-med sophomore in college, i see that i have much work and sacrificing to do. i am taking all of this information from this thread and website as valuable advice.


good day folks
 

iave9963

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We are the leaders of tomorrow and the best and brightest. All of you will be my peers in medicine. No need for hatred or resentment. Right?
Kudos to those on the forum that are in support.

Exactly, it is a tad bit disconcerting to think that some(hoping a small minority) of my future peers in medicine will assume I'm not adequate enough to practice all based on the color of my skin. Either way, I went on 8 medical school interviews and seen only ONE black male and 6 black females in total. So people relax, we won't be stealing spots anytime soon.
 

TexasSurgeon

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Let me first say, my last name is Black, that's the reason for my screen name.

Hopefully this isn't a repetitive topic, and I didn't want to post it in URM thread as I want everyone's opinion. Yesterday I spoke with an admissions counselor at my state school. I told her my stats are cGPA 3.6
sGPA 3.54
No MCAT yet
Army 7 years
7 years hospital experience both clinical and non (paid)
Free clinic volunteering
Peds/FP shadowing
No research yet
Etc

Anyway, she wasn't digging my stats, and gave me a few pointers. Once she found out I was black (or light brownish hehe) she did a 180 and backtracked telling me some of the things she had just mentioned weren't all that necessary (post bac work, research, gap year) considering I'm a URM. What gives? I'm not saying I'm not grateful for opportunities but I almost feel like I'm cheating the system. I must say, medical school is the only thing in life where being black and poor has been advantageous to me. End rant

Your service in the military is fantastic. Your stats are actually good, just keep a positive trend going. You're absolutely not cheating the system, but I know many Black friends who feel the same as you. Keep it strong! You'll get to your dreams no matter what. Your goal is to maximize your chances of admission, if being a URM helps in that, then I believe you should do it because you will be able to ultimately provide a better living to your patients and possibly yourself/family.
 

Narmerguy

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I think that the chip on the shoulder mentality limits blacks in this country. Constantly feeling as though they are inadequate when attempting to do something other than play sports. The truth is many Asians, Indian's and Whites will start to consider other options when they don't get accepted; they don't just give up and they don't blame it on their race or inequalities. I don't think many blacks are willing to make the sacrifices necessary for medical school; It's a rough journey for the average person.

I'd be interested to see you defend these statements with some kind of actual evidence. Claiming that blacks feel inadequate and give up at everything but sports is a fairly severe claim.
 
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deleted480308

I'd be interested to see you defend these statements with some kind of actual evidence. Claiming that blacks feel inadequate and give up at everything but sports is a fairly severe claim.

I have to agree with narmerguy, in a topic as sensitive and personal as this...both sides should refrain from casting generalities that aren't backed up with actual stats. They don't help along any productive discussion.
 

Guero

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Exactly, it is a tad bit disconcerting to think that some(hoping a small minority) of my future peers in medicine will assume I'm not adequate enough to practice all based on the color of my skin. Either way, I went on 8 medical school interviews and seen only ONE black male and 6 black females in total. So people relax, we won't be stealing spots anytime soon.
I'm very surprised that so many of you encountered so few diverse applicants. I only attended one interview of my six that had 5 other applicants, all white. Granted, I interviewed at a historically black college dedicated to the underserved as one of my six interviews, but by and large, my interviews had several diverse applicants minus Native Americans. Hah, it was awesome seeing the tables turned. I was one of three Caucasian applicants in a group of 40 applicants. Great school, too, just way too expensive and in an inhospitable climate.
I'd be interested to see you defend these statements with some kind of actual evidence. Claiming that blacks feel inadequate and give up at everything but sports is an inane claim.
FTFY :naughty:
The problem with your logic is that there is not enough black applicants with qualified stats to get in. That's why blacks still have the lowest acceptance rate of all groups.

Listen, blacks are not taking seats. Okay, lets do an analysis from AAMC Table 25.

. . .
Thanks for taking the time to contribute a well substantiated post. :thumbup:
 

0kazak1

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I view affirmative action like that joke about running away from a bear.

You just have to run faster (or do better than) who you are grouped with.

Unfortunately, this bar is set at different levels for different groups. (EspadaLeader et al.)
 
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MedicalAuthor

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I'd be interested to see you defend these statements with some kind of actual evidence. Claiming that blacks feel inadequate and give up at everything but sports is a fairly severe claim.

On the contrary, I've given up on quite a few sports.
 

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The notion that all african americans play sports is funny. What cities do you guys live in? Do you have black friends? There are black chess players, music majors, video game nerds, etc. There is obviously a different culture between all races but some of these comments would be similar to saying all white people are bankers and lawyers and should give up on sports or any other generally "non-white" tasks.
 
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beBrave

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I'd be interested to see you defend these statements with some kind of actual evidence. Claiming that blacks feel inadequate and give up at everything but sports is a fairly severe claim.

I'm speaking from the point of social perception. Trying to actually quantify the social perceptions of a specific group would be generalizing that group. I don't in anyway believe that blacks as an entire group believe that sports are their best option at securing a good future. I think diversity in industries such as medicine will happen gradually as social perceptions change. Change takes time but I think we are headed in the right direction; for example a thread like this one a few years ago might have not been possible. :)
 
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Espadaleader

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Kudos to SDN. This is the first time a URM debate has went well. I feel really good right now. Thanks for feedback.
 
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NontradCA

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I think that the chip on the shoulder mentality limits blacks in this country. Constantly feeling as though they are inadequate when attempting to do something other than play sports. The truth is many Asians, Indian's and Whites will start to consider other options when they don't get accepted; they don't just give up and they don't blame it on their race or inequalities. I don't think many blacks are willing to make the sacrifices necessary for medical school; It's a rough journey for the average person.

:confused: What a bunch of bs. Sources? Anecdotes you've seen around San Diego?
 

NontradCA

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I'm speaking from the point of social perception. Trying to actually quantify the social perceptions of a specific group would be generalizing that group. I don't in anyway believe that blacks as an entire group believe that sports are their best option at securing a good future. I think diversity in industries such as medicine will happen gradually as social perceptions change. Change takes time but I think we are headed in the right direction; for example a thread like this one a few years ago might have not been possible. :)

You don't see the irony (and lies) in this post?
 

JunSung

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I think I read somewhere blacks have more chance to get into MD than whites because of the slavery thing where blacks are repaid by the Americans. AND Asians like me will have a hard time getting into MD for some reason because they think we are smart and need the highest GPA and MCAT scores alive. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 

wjs010

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I think I read somewhere blacks have more chance to get into MD than whites because of the slavery thing where blacks are repaid by the Americans. AND Asians like me will have a hard time getting into MD for some reason because they think we are smart and need the highest GPA and MCAT scores alive. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Strong avitar to location to occupation to post content historical validity to post freedom given your location ratio.
 
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