Is it foolhearted to take a loan for a bachelors in psychology?

[Prototype123]

I've set my eyes on a bachelors in psychology next term and would love to take it if money is not an issue, but it is. Here's the problem: I have no idea how to advance the fields I'm interested, which impacts my abilities to become a post doc. I'm interested in personality and biology but don't have any concrete ideas how to further these research topics. There is also the question of being admitted as a post doc which is far from certain.

Would you take a loan for a bachelors in psychology in light of these factors? Does a bachelors degree in and of itself have any value even if I don't become a post doc?

More specifically, should I be certain of my future research methods in advance or will it clarify over time?

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[WisNeuro]

There's always money in the banana stand.

 

[Prototype123]

There's always money in the banana stand.

Post reported.

 

[WisNeuro]

Post reported.

Congrats?

 

[cmkcmk]

Heya! If you do a bachelors degree then you'll need a masters and or a doctoral degree! Many of the doctorate programs are funded but, maybe dont bank on full funding! I think an UG degree in anything is a gamble because if you're not good at it... most likely won't make any money. If psych is your passion then you should go for it! If not, take a gap year and do lots of placements to figure out what interests you more. Many many people take a loan for UG. They just need to be sure it's worth it to them!

 

[Prototype123]

Heya! If you do a bachelors degree then you'll need a masters and or a doctoral degree! Many of the doctorate programs are funded but, maybe dont bank on full funding! I think an UG degree in anything is a gamble because if you're not good at it... most likely won't make any money. If psych is your passion then you should go for it! If not, take a gap year and do lots of placements to figure out what interests you more. Many many people take a loan for UG. They just need to be sure it's worth it to them!

Yeah for a post doc, but what if I realize research is not my thing? Is a bachelors degree in psychology valued for job applications of any kind, compared to no bachelors degree?

 

[WisNeuro]

That bachelors in psychology may be useful in being the manager of a fast food place rather than a fry cook, but that's pretty much it.

 

[deleted343839]

I've set my eyes on a bachelors in psychology next term and would love to take it if money is not an issue, but it is. Here's the problem: I have no idea how to advance the fields I'm interested, which impacts my abilities to become a post doc.

Not knowing how to advance the field is true of 99.9% of people at your level of training. Why would you decide whether you are fit to be a postdoc based on your present lack of knowledge as an undergraduate? Of course you don't know how to advance the field. This knowledge does not come without concerted effort and years of training, and even then not everyone will be able to make a meaningful contribution to the science. Don't get ahead of yourself.

Is a bachelors degree in psychology valued for job applications of any kind, compared to no bachelors degree?

Not specifically. But you could be a research assistant or do some sort of basic data analysis. That's what I did with my bachelor's degree, until I decided I was ready to go to grad school.

 

[Prototype123]

Why would you decide whether you are fit to be a postdoc based on your present lack of knowledge as an undergraduate?

Because I will have to take a loan for the bachelors. That's a gamble given my current state of mind. Can one be admitted as a post doc based on high level analysis and writing or is specialization a prerequisite? Can I seek consultance from instructors to help lead me into the appropriate path? Someone to take me under their wings.

 

[Member6677]

I think I am confused as to the missing steps in between admittance to a bachelor's program and becoming a postdoc. In psychology, you have to go from an undergraduate degree, then get accepted to either a Master's or Ph.d/Psy.D program (or both), THEN match for internship, THEN match for postdoc. There are a lot of things to consider before a postdoc. If you decide during your undergraduate year that psychology is not for you, you can switch your major before graduation. As someone said above, a BA in psychology is all but worthless (IMO), but college requires you to take many core classes which may help you better find your passion if it is not psychology.

As far as a loan for bachelor's goes, I recommend possibly going to a state school or community college which will both be cheaper than a private university. This way, if you take out loans, it will be far less to payback.

Goodluck!

 

[erg923]

Because I will have to take a loan for the bachelors. That's a gamble given my current state of mind. Can one be admitted as a post doc based on high level analysis and writing or is specialization a prerequisite? Can I seek consultance from instructors to help lead me into the appropriate path? Someone to take me under their wings.

post doc, mean after your doctorate. I don't understand the focus on this when you are struggling to even articulate fit for admittance to graduate school.

The loan question is simple though. Always keep debt to a minimum. Do an ROI analysis using available data to determine risk vs benefit.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I've set my eyes on a bachelors in psychology next term and would love to take it if money is not an issue, but it is. Here's the problem: I have no idea how to advance the fields I'm interested, which impacts my abilities to become a post doc. I'm interested in personality and biology but don't have any concrete ideas how to further these research topics. There is also the question of being admitted as a post doc which is far from certain.

Would you take a loan for a bachelors in psychology in light of these factors? Does a bachelors degree in and of itself have any value even if I don't become a post doc?

More specifically, should I be certain of my future research methods in advance or will it clarify over time?

Aren't you in Sweden? Most of us on this board have little or no knowledge of how psychology education and training works in that country.

 

[Mad Jack]

I've set my eyes on a bachelors in psychology next term and would love to take it if money is not an issue, but it is. Here's the problem: I have no idea how to advance the fields I'm interested, which impacts my abilities to become a post doc. I'm interested in personality and biology but don't have any concrete ideas how to further these research topics. There is also the question of being admitted as a post doc which is far from certain.

Would you take a loan for a bachelors in psychology in light of these factors? Does a bachelors degree in and of itself have any value even if I don't become a post doc?

More specifically, should I be certain of my future research methods in advance or will it clarify over time?

I thought you were in Sweden, and already a graduate student in psych... Let me dig up your old posts, because this could be serious...

 

[Mad Jack]

Heya! If you do a bachelors degree then you'll need a masters and or a doctoral degree! Many of the doctorate programs are funded but, maybe dont bank on full funding! I think an UG degree in anything is a gamble because if you're not good at it... most likely won't make any money. If psych is your passion then you should go for it! If not, take a gap year and do lots of placements to figure out what interests you more. Many many people take a loan for UG. They just need to be sure it's worth it to them!

He's in Sweden, basically none of the funding issues apply there. It's a different world.

 

[erg923]

Aren't you in Sweden? Most of us on this board have little or no knowledge of how psychology education and training works in that country.

I had no clue about this. not advisable to ask this from Americans, as thing are, um, different over there.

 

[Prototype123]

post doc, mean after your doctorate. I don't understand the focus on this when you are struggling to even articulate fit for admittance to graduate school.

No use entering a bachelors in psychology if you don't intend on an eventual post doc position.

Aren't you in Sweden? Most of us on this board have little or no knowledge of how psychology education and training works in that country.

The masters programme is international: Psychology - Master of Science Programme (120 credits) | Lund University

 

[singasongofjoy]

I'm pretty sure the very specific way in which the term postdoc is used in the US is different than what you are talking about. Maybe you should clarify by what you mean by postdoc. Do you just mean "life after finishing doctoral program?"

 

[singasongofjoy]

Given some of the posts you've posted elsewhere, I suggest taking time to consider your probable chances of getting into a doctoral program in your country. Sounds like you've had some academic difficulties in undergrad that in the US might make it pretty difficult to get into a doctoral program.

 

[Prototype123]

Given some of the posts you've posted elsewhere, I suggest taking time to consider your probable chances of getting into a doctoral program in your country. Sounds like you've had some academic difficulties in undergrad that in the US might make it pretty difficult to get into a doctoral program.

I've done fine so far. The undergraduate essay is all matters. They don't care about grades overall.

 

[Justanothergrad]

I've done fine so far. The undergraduate essay is all matters. They don't care about grades overall.

I don't understand why you are asking opinions about education given that you already have your facts picked and, more importantly, the educational systems are so different. I'm not sure what feedback would or could be useful.

 

[psych.meout]

I don't understand why all of you are being so critical of Prototype123. He already revealed he knows everything, because he's an "elite autist."

 

[Prototype123]

I don't understand why you are asking opinions about education given that you already have your facts picked and, more importantly, the educational system

I don't have my facts picked up. All I know is that the grade factor has not come into play yet. I'm not clear on if it's a good idea to take a loan for a bachelors in psychology. I found in my philosophy undergrad that no specialization subject was to my interest. In research psychology it's the opposite. There are so many subjects of varying degrees of interest that I don't even know what I don't know (form of expression).

 

[singasongofjoy]

You could consider taking some time away from school (thus putting off the decision of whether to take out a loan) in order to work in a research lab and get some more of that type of experience. That might help you decide if you're keen enough on the idea to continue pursuing psych. I don't know if community college is a thing in your country but if so, then as someone else suggested you might consider that. I'm of the mind that no program/degree is worth going into debt for unless you can't really see yourself being happy doing something else that doesn't require taking the path that requires loans. Additionally why not do some informational interviewing of people in your country who have pursued that path? Set up some meetings with faculty to ask them about what research looks like for them and what path they took to get there. The systems are so different from country to country that I am doubtful you'll be able to get much helpful info here where practically everyone is from the US or Canada.

 

[smalltownpsych]

The masters programme is international: Psychology - Master of Science Programme (120 credits) | Lund University

Each country has it's own educational system and each country has it's own professional standards and practices. I doubt that anyone on this board can provide any advice on Swedish programs even if they are labelled international. I don't even have any idea at all what it would take for me to practice psychology in Sweden if I wanted to move there to live with some of my Swedish relatives, for example.

 

[Prototype123]

You could consider taking some time away from school (thus putting off the decision of whether to take out a loan) in order to work in a research lab and get some more of that type of experience. That might help you decide if you're keen enough on the idea to continue pursuing psych. I don't know if community college is a thing in your country but if so, then as someone else suggested you might consider that. I'm of the mind that no program/degree is worth going into debt for unless you can't really see yourself being happy doing something else that doesn't require taking the path that requires loans. Additionally why not do some informational interviewing of people in your country who have pursued that path? Set up some meetings with faculty to ask them about what research looks like for them and what path they took to get there.

I question the prospect of getting work in a research lab with only 60 credits of freestanding courses in psychology. That is to say not even a bachelors degree.

I've interviewed one of my lecturers and it's not so much the lifestyle but the actual content of psychology that I'm unsure of. Is there a field in which I can conduct productive research in, not just philosophize. Most of my theories (if we can call them that) are embryonic and untestable.

 

[Justanothergrad]

Most of my theories (if we can call them that) are embryonic and untestable.

That's not a good theory then.

 

[sammiesings]

Maybe you should pay for it with all your modeling money.

 

[erg923]

Maybe you should pay for it with all your modeling money.

 

[psych.meout]

I question the prospect of getting work in a research lab with only 60 credits of freestanding courses in psychology. That is to say not even a bachelors degree.

I've interviewed one of my lecturers and it's not so much the lifestyle but the actual content of psychology that I'm unsure of. Is there a field in which I can conduct productive research in, not just philosophize. Most of my theories (if we can call them that) are embryonic and untestable.

Where everyone is a quantum scientist... • r/iamverysmart

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

One thing you could potentially do with a bachelor's in psychology is attend nursing school, work as a nurse for a few years, retire, become a surveyor for JCAHO (Joint Commission), and proceed to pass judgment on mental health treatment plans (goals/objectives/interventions) written by doctoral-level psychologists. No licensure, certification, or actual psychotherapy experience (supervised or otherwise) required.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

I question the prospect of getting work in a research lab with only 60 credits of freestanding courses in psychology. That is to say not even a bachelors degree.

I've interviewed one of my lecturers and it's not so much the lifestyle but the actual content of psychology that I'm unsure of. Is there a field in which I can conduct productive research in, not just philosophize. Most of my theories (if we can call them that) are embryonic and untestable.

A statement that is--in principle--unable to be empirically tested/ falsified is, by definition, a scientifically *meaningless* statement. Philosophy of science 101.

 

[Prototype123]

A statement that is--in principle--unable to be empirically tested/ falsified is, by definition, a scientifically *meaningless* statement. Philosophy of science 101.

I never claimed that it was in principle untestable. There are lots of Freudians in psychology for that matter relying on theories that are untestable. Theories in evolutionary psychology are also largely untestable.

 

[smalltownpsych]

One thing you could potentially do with a bachelor's in psychology is attend nursing school, work as a nurse for a few years, retire, become a surveyor for JCAHO (Joint Commission), and proceed to pass judgment on mental health treatment plans (goals/objectives/interventions) written by doctoral-level psychologists. No licensure, certification, or actual psychotherapy experience (supervised or otherwise) required.

Sounds similar to a problem I was having a few weeks ago. One hospital I worked at had a dedicated "treatment planner" who would write up all of the treatment plans and make sure that all of the goals and objectives met JCAHO criteria. Saved us a lot of headaches.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

I never claimed that it was in principle untestable. There are lots of Freudians in psychology for that matter relying on theories that are untestable.

In that case, good luck to you. I hope that you can translate the theories into testable hypotheses and that you get some cool results.

 

[Prototype123]

In that case, good luck to you. I hope that you can translate the theories into testable hypotheses and that you get some cool results.

Why? I don't need to. Evolutionary psychology extrapolated to humans is unfalsifiable.

 

[WisNeuro]

Yup, this thread is going just about how I thought it would.

 

[pediatric_psydoc]

Yup, this thread is going just about how I thought it would.

Agreed.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

Sounds similar to a problem I was having a few weeks ago. One hospital I worked at had a dedicated "treatment planner" who would write up all of the treatment plans and make sure that all of the goals and objectives met JCAHO criteria. Saved us a lot of headaches.

I find it to be the epitome of foolishness that we work at hospitals that would pay someone to write/translate plans that we pay JCAHO surveyors to 'survey' and also pay for LEAN Six Sigma (efficiency & elimination of waste) trainings. Hopefully there will be a few dollars leftover for actual clinical services.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I find it to be the epitome of foolishness that we work at hospitals that would pay someone to write/translate plans that we pay JCAHO surveyors to 'survey' and also pay for LEAN Six Sigma (efficiency & elimination of waste) trainings. Hopefully there will be a few dollars leftover for actual clinical services.

Maybe we should just hijack this thread to talk about how bureaucracies make our jobs so much better and help our patients so much. We could also talk about how clicking on items in a computer is supposed to lead to better health care quality and whether or not anyone has actually tested this in anyway whatsoever. Some of the integrated healthcare is problematic where I get the local case managers or care advocates at the nearest patient centered medical home or whatever they call it now, calling me to ask about my patients for "collaborative treatment planning". No friggin' way.

 

[erg923]

Maybe we should just hijack this thread to talk about how bureaucracies make our jobs so much better and help our patients so much. We could also talk about how clicking on items in a computer is supposed to lead to better health care quality and whether or not anyone has actually tested this in anyway whatsoever. Some of the integrated healthcare is problematic where I get the local case managers or care advocates at the nearest patient centered medical home or whatever they call it now, calling me to ask about my patients for "collaborative treatment planning". No friggin' way.

How bout the notion that if one writes: "No SI/HI" in EVERY clinical note that this in any way resembles good clinical care, or would even begin to protect you (or the organization) legally in the event of a patient suicide or homicidal act. It most certainly does nothing of the sort. Yet, it's part of my bi-annual practice assessment/audit.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

Maybe we should just hijack this thread to talk about how bureaucracies make our jobs so much better and help our patients so much. We could also talk about how clicking on items in a computer is supposed to lead to better health care quality and whether or not anyone has actually tested this in anyway whatsoever. Some of the integrated healthcare is problematic where I get the local case managers or care advocates at the nearest patient centered medical home or whatever they call it now, calling me to ask about my patients for "collaborative treatment planning". No friggin' way.

I was trying to familiarize myself with examples of what Joint Commission considers to be good 'specific, objective, measurable' treatment goals/objectives/interventions and happened on a PowerPoint presentation of an apparently high-level JC consultant-type.

I stopped reading when I saw that the only example of a mental health objective offered was: "Patient will learn and be able to repeat the names of 2 of his psychotropic medications."

They (along with the 'mock surveyors') at my facility apparently fail to grasp that the 'appropriate' level of specificity of the goals/objectives/interventions are dependent on numerous contextual factors, not the least of which include: (a) what actual theoretical model you're utilizing to do the case formulation and treatment planning; (b) empirically, how specific you need to be to induce positive behavioral change in this specific client; (c) where the client is in terms of motivation (e.g., with reference to the transtheoretical model of behavior change); and (d) what degree of therapeutic structure (agenda setting and following, session-by-session sequenced structure, between-session practice assignment engagement) the client will accept and respond to.

 

[ilovedance1]

While we are on the topics of reddit, PowerPoint, and regional differences... I learned today that an electrical outlet is called a power point in Australia.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I was trying to familiarize myself with examples of what Joint Commission considers to be good 'specific, objective, measurable' treatment goals/objectives/interventions and happened on a PowerPoint presentation of an apparently high-level JC consultant-type.

I stopped reading when I saw that the only example of a mental health objective offered was: "Patient will learn and be able to repeat the names of 2 of his psychotropic medications."

They (along with the 'mock surveyors') at my facility apparently fail to grasp that the 'appropriate' level of specificity of the goals/objectives/interventions are dependent on numerous contextual factors, not the least of which include: (a) what actual theoretical model you're utilizing to do the case formulation and treatment planning; (b) empirically, how specific you need to be to induce positive behavioral change in this specific client; (c) where the client is in terms of motivation (e.g., with reference to the transtheoretical model of behavior change); and (d) what degree of therapeutic structure (agenda setting and following, session-by-session sequenced structure, between-session practice assignment engagement) the client will accept and respond to.

If we spend too much time trying to work on making and tracking goals, we'll never accomplish anything. For many of my patients, making goals can be counterproductive. In fact, by the time I get them to be able to make effective and reasonable goals, they no longer need therapy. I like what you said about where they are at in the change model because many patients come to us so early in that process that the goal is to get them to increase awareness of a need to change something. I don't know about the rest of you but most of my patients are pretty solidly in the first stage of change when I first see them and if I tell them what they have to do to change that first session they won't come back.

 

[Prototype123]

I'm ambivalent at this stage. I wouldn't venture into it if it weren't for the fact that psychologists aren't fit to scrub my shoes. There's virtually no competition for a man of my intelligence. It's not like physics, a field I truly respect and would never stand a chance to get in.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Now you are trying too hard.

 

[psych.meout]

Now you are trying too hard.

Hey guys, stop having such a serious and productive exchange and pay more attention to me!