Is it hard to find a job out of vet medical school?

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tmss011223344

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I work with a 94 year old physician who was devastated today when I told him I was pursuing veterinary medicine instead of human medicine. He then went off to tell me that it was extremely difficult to find a job in small animal practice and that the vast majority end up in a laboratory setting earning little more than a health technician. I then went on to explain that there are many different areas in DVM and that I was interested in wildlife medicine for now.

I understand that his opinions are dated but is there any truth in what he had to say? I need some light shed on this topic.

Thank you.
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Most veterinarians are able to find a job out of school.... as long as they're open to relocating to wherever the jobs are and you are flexible with what sort of job you are willing to accept.

The veterinarians who have a hard time finding a job are typically people who are tied to a particular geographic area and/or have specific goals/preferences in mind about their workplace (for example: not wanting to work for Banfield, not wanting to work in a practice with after-hours on-call duties, not wanting to work in a practice with outdated equipment, needing a high salary to support student loan debt, etc). There are people who manage to find great jobs in a specific geographic area, but being flexible significantly increases your chances.

Wildlife medicine jobs are incredibly hard to come by. Not impossible, but you'll definitely need to network like crazy and have a Plan B in mind.
 
tmss011223344 said:
I work with a 94 year old physician who was devastated today when I told him I was pursuing veterinary medicine instead of human medicine. He then went off to tell me that it was extremely difficult to find a job in small animal practice and that the vast majority end up in a laboratory setting earning little more than a health technician. I then went on to explain that there are many different areas in DVM and that I was interested in wildlife medicine for now.

I understand that his opinions are dated but is there any truth in what he had to say? I need some light shed on this topic.

Thank you.
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That's laughable. I don't think that has EVER been the case in the entire history of the profession.

However, the job market is definitely more difficult than it used to be nowadays, with new school opening and class sizes increasing.

That being said, if you are interested in wildlife med particularly...that is absolutely an area of vet med where finding a job is exceedingly difficult.
 
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tmss011223344 said:
I work with a 94 year old physician who was devastated today when I told him I was pursuing veterinary medicine instead of human medicine. He then went off to tell me that it was extremely difficult to find a job in small animal practice and that the vast majority end up in a laboratory setting earning little more than a health technician. I then went on to explain that there are many different areas in DVM and that I was interested in wildlife medicine for now.

I understand that his opinions are dated but is there any truth in what he had to say? I need some light shed on this topic.

Thank you.
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I feel like any advice you are getting from this person is likely very outdated. I've also experienced some 'advice' or just questions from physicians regarding vet med that shows how completely clueless they can be about the profession. My orthopedic surgeon said "Wow, so you'll be making around $200-300k if you end up in a zoo then!" I don't think I need to provide any other examples after that.

You are more likely to find a job in small animal med than wildlife, whether you pursue board certification or not, that much I can tell you.
WhtsThFrequency said:
What happened this morning?!

eyebrowwiggle.gif~c200
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:rofl:
 
tmss011223344 said:
I work with a 94 year old physician who was devastated today when I told him I was pursuing veterinary medicine instead of human medicine. He then went off to tell me that it was extremely difficult to find a job in small animal practice and that the vast majority end up in a laboratory setting earning little more than a health technician. I then went on to explain that there are many different areas in DVM and that I was interested in wildlife medicine for now.

I understand that his opinions are dated but is there any truth in what he had to say? I need some light shed on this topic.

Thank you.
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I am finding the opposite - it is somewhat difficult to find vets to hire especially as we are not in a cool urban area with pulsing night life for the single vets/new grads. We are "ONLY" an hour west of Washington D.C. and finding people is somewhat difficult.
 
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iamapm said:
I am finding the opposite - it is somewhat difficult to find vets to hire especially as we are not in a cool urban area with pulsing night life for the single vets/new grads. We are "ONLY" an hour west of Washington D.C. and finding people is somewhat difficult.
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Maybe it's not the pulsing night life they want... maybe it's the 24hr ER hospital down the road that keeps them from having on call hours.
 
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iamapm said:
I am finding the opposite - it is somewhat difficult to find vets to hire especially as we are not in a cool urban area with pulsing night life for the single vets/new grads. We are "ONLY" an hour west of Washington D.C. and finding people is somewhat difficult.
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I would ask all of those who have interviewed with you and declined the position WHY they declined. I interviewed at a long list of clinics right out of school and turned them all down for completely different reasons. Location may play a role, but you should be able to overcome that if everything else about your clinic is top-notch. If, on the other hand, you have outdated equipment, outdated medical protocols, a difficult staff, an especially difficult clientele, or management problems, it will be an entirely different story.
 
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iamapm said:
I am finding the opposite - it is somewhat difficult to find vets to hire especially as we are not in a cool urban area with pulsing night life for the single vets/new grads. We are "ONLY" an hour west of Washington D.C. and finding people is somewhat difficult.
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I'm single vet/new grad and don't give a rat's ass about a "pulsing night life". I actually don't know many vets that do care about that. I can just about guarantee it is something else. It may be location, but probably nothing to do with pulsing night life and more to do with.... how far away is the grocery store, target, Walmart, hospital, doctors offices, etc. It also probably has to do with on call schedules or working hours or salary or benefits or staff, or equipment, etc. Those things are way more important than a "pulsing night life".
 
twelvetigers said:
Maybe it's not the pulsing night life they want... maybe it's the 24hr ER hospital down the road that keeps them from having on call hours.
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Or job opportunities for the spouse, school and childcare options for children, or maybe distance to a grocery store that's open after 6 pm. To name a few bumps in the road I've seen in smaller cities or towns.
 
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CalliopeDVM said:
Or job opportunities for the spouse, school and childcare options for children, or maybe distance to a grocery store that's open after 6 pm. To name a few bumps in the road I've seen in smaller cities or towns.
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True. Stilly was a small town, and while I enjoyed it there, I am glad to have more dining options and the ability to never set foot in a Wal-Mart if I don't wanna. It's worth a lot to me, and I would probably need a lot to take me away from that.

Plus, I'm not on call. Haha.
 
chickenlittle said:
I would ask all of those who have interviewed with you and declined the position WHY they declined. I interviewed at a long list of clinics right out of school and turned them all down for completely different reasons. Location may play a role, but you should be able to overcome that if everything else about your clinic is top-notch. If, on the other hand, you have outdated equipment, outdated medical protocols, a difficult staff, an especially difficult clientele, or management problems, it will be an entirely different story.
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Truth.

I have seen a number of GP owners complain on VIN about having difficulty hiring - but they never seem to take the time to ask the applicants they DO have why it is they end up not interested in a job?

Start asking why people aren't interested, and then adapt to better entice people. That's business.

I think a lot of owners don't want to make any changes because it is their clinic and what they have done has always worked well so why should I change?. That's true. But then you can keep doijg it by yourself.
 
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twelvetigers said:
True. Stilly was a small town, and while I enjoyed it there, I am glad to have more dining options and the ability to never set foot in a Wal-Mart if I don't wanna. It's worth a lot to me, and I would probably need a lot to take me away from that.

Plus, I'm not on call. Haha.
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Ha. I, on the other hand, could be interested in a small town gig. But it would have to be in a well-run, reasonably modern (equipped) hospital. And pay enough to support my family.

That probably doesn't even exist.
 
I wouldn't have minded a small town gig. I don't care much for night life and if I can go into the city every now and then for entertainment, that's good enough.

I think it's disingenuous to blame it on night life.

Newer vets do tend to place more value on work/life balance and I don't blame them one bit. Burnout is a thing and we need to be aware.

If it's the emergency hours, is there an E-clinic nearby? Are there other vets in the area you can split it with?

It was important to me personally to have digital rads. Not a deal breaker, but definitely a con to have analog. i never wanted to touch developer again. And reshoot rads after waiting to see if it developed first.
 
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LetItSnow said:
Ha. I, on the other hand, could be interested in a small town gig. But it would have to be in a well-run, reasonably modern (equipped) hospital. And pay enough to support my family.

That probably doesn't even exist.
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My first job was in a small town. And the pay was pretty darn terrible. But they had a clean, modern hospital, relatively up-to-date equipment,a nearby emergency clinic (no on-call), an owner who was interested in keeping current and learning new things (she did acupuncture and chemotherapy), and a kind and welcoming staff. The job didn't work out, for various reasons, but I was perfectly willing to go to a small town because the benefits made up for the drawbacks.

Clinics that I have interviewed at but refused to work for had the following characteristics (each an actual clinic and the actual reason that I declined the offer):
- Incoherent medical records kept on 3x5 cards.
- The comment "of course you'll be expected to do ear crops... how else do you expect to earn that salary?"
- A contract that required me to pay the owner a large sum of money if I left before the end of the 1-year agreement.
- An owner who ran his practice according to the principles of Scientology
- An owner who used ONE surgical pack for all of the day's surgeries. ("I do the cats who are known FeLV/FIV negative first, so the instruments are clean when I do them and there's no chance of transmission.")
 
LetItSnow said:
Ha. I, on the other hand, could be interested in a small town gig. But it would have to be in a well-run, reasonably modern (equipped) hospital. And pay enough to support my family.

That probably doesn't even exist.
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Those clinics are out there. Well, I don't know what they were paying, but I have seen well-run and reasonably equipped hospitals in small towns. In fact, I often see better equipped hospitals in small towns because they can't just refer across town and have to stock and equip themselves for various diagnostics/treatments/emergencies. Some of the worst set up clinics I've seen have been in major cities, because the owners feel they can fall back on referral and emergency hospitals.


The Scientology thing chickenlittle mentioned doesn't surprise me -- they made a real push several years back to court veterinary clinic owners to join their fold. I read that in a 'history of Scientology' book somewhere, but I can't remember which or where.
 
I'm a single vet who moved here fresh out of school. "here" being about an hour west-ish of DC... I'm in a town of about 1000 people, if that. There's more than enough nightlife/restaurants/bars/wineries/breweries in the surrounding areas for my tastes. There's also three ER clinics within 30-40minutes. Within an hour I have specialists in just about every field. And plenty of grocery store/shopping options and other things that my QOL appreciates. My clinic offered plenty of "toys" and the freedoms and qualities I was looking for.
I realize not every place "an hour west of DC" is the same but like others have said, there's a lot more that goes into the decision than just the nightlife...
 
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CalliopeDVM said:
Those clinics are out there. Well, I don't know what they were paying, but I have seen well-run and reasonably equipped hospitals in small towns.
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Hehe. Well, you and chickenlittle BOTH basically posted that they are out there - except maybe the pay. So in other words, like I said, they aren't really out there.

I am aware that many smaller town clinics are / can be well-equipped. I spent my first year in an outstate hospital that dealt with receiving emergencies from many rural clinics. Many of them were very well-equipped and staffed. My comments weren't some sort of slam on the capabilities of rural hospitals in general.

Unfortunately, for me the money is an issue (sole income, family of 5). Until my wife starts rolling in money. Then maybe we can move rural. :)
 
LetItSnow said:
Hehe. Well, you and chickenlittle BOTH basically posted that they are out there - except maybe the pay. So in other words, like I said, they aren't really out there.
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No, I said I don't know what the pay was, not that the pay was bad. As I was working as a relief vet, I had no reason to know what they were paying associates. I was paid well.
 
Pay is usually lower in rural areas, because prices for veterinary services are usually lower in rural areas. The lower cost of living should balance out the lower salaries, but that doesn't help if you're trying to pay off student loans. I didn't have any loans, so I was fine accepting $45k/yr to start because I knew that I could live decently in that area on that salary.
 
LetItSnow said:
Unfortunately, for me the money is an issue (sole income, family of 5). Until my wife starts rolling in money. Then maybe we can move rural. :)
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You can always sell off the kids ;)
 
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chickenlittle said:
Pay is usually lower in rural areas, because prices for veterinary services are usually lower in rural areas. The lower cost of living should balance out the lower salaries, but that doesn't help if you're trying to pay off student loans. I didn't have any loans, so I was fine accepting $45k/yr to start because I knew that I could live decently in that area on that salary.
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Sure, there is definitely an element of lower cost of living. But .... that $45k/yr would be 1/3rd to 1/4th of what I make now, depending on how many shifts I want to work. I don't think the cost of living is THAT different.

I am not knocking rural clinics, which seems to have been the interpretation some people made. It just is what it is. Loans aren't a major consideration for me; the single income family of 5 is. :)

For someone like me the only way I could move rural would likely be ownership. 20 years ago, single and young? I could happily have gone rural on the (likely) lower income. Definitely didn't need a crazy night life like the OP seemed to think was keeping people from applying.
 
LetItSnow said:
Sure, there is definitely an element of lower cost of living. But .... that $45k/yr would be 1/3rd to 1/4th of what I make now, depending on how many shifts I want to work. I don't think the cost of living is THAT different.

I am not knocking rural clinics, which seems to have been the interpretation some people made. It just is what it is. Loans aren't a major consideration for me; the single income family of 5 is. :)

For someone like me the only way I could move rural would likely be ownership. 20 years ago, single and young? I could happily have gone rural on the (likely) lower income. Definitely didn't need a crazy night life like the OP seemed to think was keeping people from applying.
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*ahem* on the ownership ;)
 
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My clinic isn't really rural (30k population, lots military) but my pay is actually slightly better and our office is definitely better equipped than most of the offers I got in my vet school's metro area as a new grad. Combo of so many vets graduating and wanting to stay in the area and having so many available referral options, I think. And my bosses like toys. :p

I just plugged the two cities into a CoL calculator and my clinic's town is about ~10% cheaper, which would make my salary even nicer if I weren't commuting.
 
LetItSnow said:
Sure, there is definitely an element of lower cost of living. But .... that $45k/yr would be 1/3rd to 1/4th of what I make now, depending on how many shifts I want to work. I don't think the cost of living is THAT different.

I am not knocking rural clinics, which seems to have been the interpretation some people made. It just is what it is. Loans aren't a major consideration for me; the single income family of 5 is. :)

For someone like me the only way I could move rural would likely be ownership. 20 years ago, single and young? I could happily have gone rural on the (likely) lower income. Definitely didn't need a crazy night life like the OP seemed to think was keeping people from applying.
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Keeping in mind this was ten years ago...

The town is too small to show up in any cost of living calculator that I can find, but my ex and I rented a very nice 3bd/2ba house within walking distance to downtown with a 1-acre fenced yard for $500/month. Cost of living was definitely low there, although it's true that housing is only one element of COL.
 
chickenlittle said:
Keeping in mind this was ten years ago...

The town is too small to show up in any cost of living calculator that I can find, but my ex and I rented a very nice 3bd/2ba house within walking distance to downtown with a 1-acre fenced yard for $500/month. Cost of living was definitely low there, although it's true that housing is only one element of COL.
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Holy mother of rent. Trailer spaces (just the spaces, no trailer or utilities included) go for $500/mo where I am.

A 3br/2ba with a decent yard (less than 1 acre) is going for $2,500-$3,000 mo. And I'm not in a prime area.

Sigh. Man, it would be nice to own a house someday.

But on the original topic - if you just want ANY job, you'll be fine.

If you get more specific than that you may be looking for a while. A happy workplace with good equipment, decent time off and a reasonably good wage is more of a unicorn than you'd expect.
 
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tmss011223344 said:
I work with a 94 year old physician who was devastated today when I told him I was pursuing veterinary medicine instead of human medicine. He then went off to tell me that it was extremely difficult to find a job in small animal practice and that the vast majority end up in a laboratory setting earning little more than a health technician. I then went on to explain that there are many different areas in DVM and that I was interested in wildlife medicine for now.

I understand that his opinions are dated but is there any truth in what he had to say? I need some light shed on this topic.

Thank you.
Click to expand...
Just look at the AVMA job website. Jobs are available. Be willing to relocate. Have a very good idea of what you want! Know what is more important to you, i.e. the deal breakers and what is livable. I cannot stand the resumes that lack a statement of purpose and interest - there are many! Understand that you need to do the appointment, do a good work up and do your notes in 20-30 minutes (we do 30 minute appointments). Doing this well is your reward, attaboy or attagirls are earned by doing something above and beyond.
 
iamapm said:
Just look at the AVMA job website. Jobs are available. Be willing to relocate. Have a very good idea of what you want! Know what is more important to you, i.e. the deal breakers and what is livable. I cannot stand the resumes that lack a statement of purpose and interest - there are many! Understand that you need to do the appointment, do a good work up and do your notes in 20-30 minutes (we do 30 minute appointments). Doing this well is your reward, attaboy or attagirls are earned by doing something above and beyond.
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I absolutely hate statements of purpose; they're like those meaningless "mission statements" that are all style and no substance. Nothing more than an advertising slogan, in my opinion. Oh well, different strokes…....

There is no single good way to do a good job. However being willing to relocate is very important to having more options.


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CalliopeDVM said:
I absolutely hate statements of purpose; they're like those meaningless "mission statements" that are all style and no substance. Nothing more than an advertising slogan, in my opinion. Oh well, different strokes…....

There is no single good way to do a good job. However being willing to relocate is very important to having more options.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
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Our dean just talked to us about this. He cited a statistic (of course, I can't remember where it was from..) that there are currently more jobs than there are applicants, but fewer new grads are willing to relocate to 'less desirable' areas. Apparently there are jobs posted that aren't receiving any applications at all.
 
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pinkpuppy9 said:
Our dean just talked to us about this. He cited a statistic (of course, I can't remember where it was from..) that there are currently more jobs than there are applicants, but fewer new grads are willing to relocate to 'less desirable' areas. Apparently there are jobs posted that aren't receiving any applications at all.
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Yup; some vets on VIN have talked about that.......I don't suppose it's unusual for new grads to not want to work is more isolated areas, but before there weren't as many applicants, so the more urban jobs with more support didn't have as many applicants.
 
pinkpuppy9 said:
Our dean just talked to us about this. He cited a statistic (of course, I can't remember where it was from..) that there are currently more jobs than there are applicants, but fewer new grads are willing to relocate to 'less desirable' areas. Apparently there are jobs posted that aren't receiving any applications at all.
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Yes. You routinely see vets complain on VIN about having a job but not being able to get applicants. The relatively typical complaint from the owner vet is "they want too much money, don't want to work late/weekends/on-call, don't want to move to our semi-rural location," etc. So I would believe that there are more jobs than applicants (I don't really know one way or another; just saying I'd believe it.)

I think the truth is somewhere more in the middle - I think there are new grads willing to work long hours and on-call - but that the salary that many places can offer just isn't enough for that new vet with $200k debt.

In other words, we're really starting to see the debt:income crunch. Owners can't afford (or don't want) to pay more, and many new grads can't afford to take a $65k/yr job.
 
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LetItSnow said:
Yes. You routinely see vets complain on VIN about having a job but not being able to get applicants. The relatively typical complaint from the owner vet is "they want too much money, don't want to work late/weekends/on-call, don't want to move to our semi-rural location," etc. So I would believe that there are more jobs than applicants (I don't really know one way or another; just saying I'd believe it.)

I think the truth is somewhere more in the middle - I think there are new grads willing to work long hours and on-call - but that the salary that many places can offer just isn't enough for that new vet with $200k debt.

In other words, we're really starting to see the debt:income crunch. Owners can't afford (or don't want) to pay more, and many new grads can't afford to take a $65k/yr job.
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Unfortunately, I worry that this won't be able to change in order to support the grads that have debt loads like that. I doubt things will change on the student's end anytime soon, if ever.
 
well, as an owner, we pay a competitive salary (or try to). And as the business grows, the associate will do better. But in our case, as a new business, it's very difficult to stay afloat and pay appropriately.
 
dyachei said:
well, as an owner, we pay a competitive salary (or try to). And as the business grows, the associate will do better. But in our case, as a new business, it's very difficult to stay afloat and pay appropriately.
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Yup. I'm not saying those owners are being unreasonable - they have to pay what the business can support, and as an owner with more risk exposure they certainly deserve to be compensated appropriately.

There's a disconnect between what (many) new grads legitimately need given their debt, and what typical (especially rural) GPs can pay.
 
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