Is it just me or do tons of pre-meds have no idea what residency is?

[studentp0x]

Or at least know very very little about it.

How do you pursue a career and invest time and money without having at least a basic idea of what the path is like? I understand not everyone comes on SDN and and lurks every thread, reads every article etc etc. But it makes sense to have a general idea at least.

Having talked to pre-meds from 2 other schools and my own, it's almost common for them to not know what residency really is OR they have a strong misconception about it. And I think this is what leads many people to the caribbean/ireland/australia etc.

They assume that as long as you pass a med school that's accredited, then you're good to go. Many think that when you're done, you just come back and get a job. Or something along those lines. The ones who do know often think getting into a residency is basically guaranteed.

Personally I really think any pre-med advisors/clubs/whatevers should educate people about this process and the reality of it.

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[moop]

Or at least know very very little about it.

How do you pursue a career and invest time and money without having at least a basic idea of what the path is like? I understand not everyone comes on SDN and and lurks every thread, reads every article etc etc. But it makes sense to have a general idea at least.

Having talked to pre-meds from 2 other schools and my own, it's almost common for them to not know what residency really is OR they have a strong misconception about it. And I think this is what leads many people to the caribbean/ireland/australia etc.

They assume that as long as you pass a med school that's accredited, then you're good to go. Many think that when you're done, you just come back and get a job. Or something along those lines. The ones who do know often think getting into a residency is basically guaranteed.

Personally I really think any pre-med advisors/clubs/whatevers should educate people about this process and the reality of it.

It depends on where you go to school and the caliber of the students you meet and talk to. The uninformed are like zombies; you think they go away every once in a while, but they'll always come back. There's no cure for stupidity and lack of motivation.

The bolded is…lol. Go ask that to the PGY3 who still doesn't know what Medicare/Medicaid does/covers, etc. Medicine is one of the peculiar fields where many people entering it are so bogged down with details that they lose the full picture of the system in which they're operating. Most can barely keep up with the daily grind, let alone do more to understand the industry they're in. The sorts of people that the profession attracts (gunners, overachievers, those looking for job security, high pay, good work/life balance, etc.) only serves to propagate this trend.

In any case, dumb/uninformed people aren't going anywhere any time soon. Don't lose sleep over this.

 

[Lucca]

This is why clinical experience is so important. This is not a path you want to head into if you are uninformed and even then I feel the filter misses a lot of people anyways. Whenever I tell someone that you have to go to school for four years to get paid 50-60k for ~80hrs/wk + studying with hundreds of thousands in debt and high daily stress they all laugh and say "Why the hell would anyone want to be a doctor." When I tell pre-meds that they suddenly become very concerned.

It's all because of that daily grind. Professional Tunnel Vision. Sisyphus.

 

[geneexpression]

Most pre-meds I meet know very little about the process of getting into med school and becoming a doctor. It's not entirely their fault. Sure, they could and should research it more, but at the same time, as undergrads, they have enough on their plates to deal with. It's a shame there aren't more direct ways for people to get this information. They're just kind of expected to figure it out on their own at some point. Maybe it's kept that way intentionally to keep the numbers of competitive people applying as low as possible.

 

[Spinach Dip]

What's a residency?

 

[La Presse]

I was talking to a friend of mine who thought that to be able to practice as a surgeon, you needed to complete an extra year of medical school.

Then I told him ACGME categorical surgery is 5-7 yrs, he nearly fainted.

"Oh well, I'll just do MD/PhD then derp."

 

[chillaxbro]

What's a residency?

Residency is the act of establishing or maintaining a residence in a given place. Residency is a concept which heavily affects a the legal rights and responsibilities that are available to a person, including eligibility to vote, eligibility to stand for political office, eligibility to access government services, responsibility to pay taxes, and on and so forth.

 

[studentp0x]

Most pre-meds I meet know very little about the process of getting into med school and becoming a doctor. It's not entirely their fault. Sure, they could and should research it more, but at the same time, as undergrads, they have enough on their plates to deal with. It's a shame there aren't more direct ways for people to get this information. They're just kind of expected to figure it out on their own at some point. Maybe it's kept that way intentionally to keep the numbers of competitive people applying as low as possible.

I think the research should be done in high school... No one should be in undergrad to simply explore what they want to do unless they got a general idea or have several interests.

Then again this goes back to our education system (I'm Canadian btw, but Canada = USA in most things so it's no different either side of the border).
We need to put A LOT more emphasis on career/job planning for students throughout high school in a very realistic fashion. Kids need to stop being told that they can achieve anything "they put their mind to." Cause the end result of that is the large number of people getting 0-30% on physics/chemistry/calculus/biology midterms.
These people aren't really meant for such programs in university... and often not for university at all. Time should be better spent learning a trade and pursuing something that's marketable. But instead of teaching kids such things ahead of time, we fuel them with false hope (compounded by their parents) and then set them up for failure.

The better approach would be to teach kids to research and assess different career paths and different job markets.. to learn about supply and demand, market saturation etc.

Anyway I sound like I'm getting off track but I'm really not. My thread title is a product of a poor education system involving both schools and parents. Too many people are being set up for failure. I believe goro said that ~25% of med school applicants "have no business setting foot on a medical school campus." The number grows when you consider the attrition along the way, in fact it multiplies.

 

[sharkbyte]

I totally agree that many pre-meds are not informed about residency; heck, I've come across pre-meds (and I'm talking juniors/seniors, not freshmen in their first semester) who don't know major things about the medical school admissions process, such as the type of letters of rec you're supposed to get, what kind of GPAs/MCATs are considered competitive, etc. Many pre-meds simply don't take out the time to do research and understand the process beforehand.

However, I don't blame them completely because it's a product of the system we're in. The pre-med process is such that we just keep thinking about acceptance, acceptance, acceptance and little beyond that. Because the admissions process is so competitive, we get bogged down in just trying to get IN to medical school without taking the time to understand what is beyond medical school, how residency is like, what being a doctor is actually like, etc. But again, with all these science courses, the need to get good grades, taking the MCAT, doing research/volunteering, etc., it's very easy to focus solely on the immediate gain instead of looking ahead and understanding what life as a physician is really like.

 

[geneexpression]

I think the research should be done in high school... No one should be in undergrad to simply explore what they want to do unless they got a general idea or have several interests.

Then again this goes back to our education system (I'm Canadian btw, but Canada = USA in most things so it's no different either side of the border).
We need to put A LOT more emphasis on career/job planning for students throughout high school in a very realistic fashion. Kids need to stop being told that they can achieve anything "they put their mind to." Cause the end result of that is the large number of people getting 0-30% on physics/chemistry/calculus/biology midterms.
These people aren't really meant for such programs in university... and often not for university at all. Time should be better spent learning a trade and pursuing something that's marketable. But instead of teaching kids such things ahead of time, we fuel them with false hope (compounded by their parents) and then set them up for failure.

The better approach would be to teach kids to research and assess different career paths and different job markets.. to learn about supply and demand, market saturation etc.

Anyway I sound like I'm getting off track but I'm really not. My thread title is a product of a poor education system involving both schools and parents. Too many people are being set up for failure. I believe goro said that ~25% of med school applicants "have no business setting foot on a medical school campus." The number grows when you consider the attrition along the way, in fact it multiplies.

I'm not sure if I agree or disagree lol. On one hand, I think that it's not developmentally possible for a high school age individual to begin making mature, rational decisions about his or her future career. On the other hand, if I could redo high school knowing what I know now about the real world, I would have approached the entire thing differently, and this is coming from someone who was a mostly A student; I didn't screw up high school in the same way that someone who did drugs their entire way through did, but I also wasn't very focused on my future while I was there. I didn't know what I had to do to prepare myself better for my future other than to get good grades. I knew nothing about different careers and "the real world" in general. Part of me wishes I did, but another part of me thinks kids that age should be allowed those years to have fun and be naive of what the real world entails.

 

[orthogenes]

I think the research should be done in high school... No one should be in undergrad to simply explore what they want to do unless they got a general idea or have several interests.

Then again this goes back to our education system (I'm Canadian btw, but Canada = USA in most things so it's no different either side of the border).
We need to put A LOT more emphasis on career/job planning for students throughout high school in a very realistic fashion. Kids need to stop being told that they can achieve anything "they put their mind to." Cause the end result of that is the large number of people getting 0-30% on physics/chemistry/calculus/biology midterms.
These people aren't really meant for such programs in university... and often not for university at all. Time should be better spent learning a trade and pursuing something that's marketable. But instead of teaching kids such things ahead of time, we fuel them with false hope (compounded by their parents) and then set them up for failure.

The better approach would be to teach kids to research and assess different career paths and different job markets.. to learn about supply and demand, market saturation etc.

Anyway I sound like I'm getting off track but I'm really not. My thread title is a product of a poor education system involving both schools and parents. Too many people are being set up for failure. I believe goro said that ~25% of med school applicants "have no business setting foot on a medical school campus." The number grows when you consider the attrition along the way, in fact it multiplies.

off topic but I agree that high school needs to put more emphasis on career planning.

 

[Lucca]

I think the research should be done in high school... No one should be in undergrad to simply explore what they want to do unless they got a general idea or have several interests.

Then again this goes back to our education system (I'm Canadian btw, but Canada = USA in most things so it's no different either side of the border).
We need to put A LOT more emphasis on career/job planning for students throughout high school in a very realistic fashion. Kids need to stop being told that they can achieve anything "they put their mind to." Cause the end result of that is the large number of people getting 0-30% on physics/chemistry/calculus/biology midterms.
These people aren't really meant for such programs in university... and often not for university at all. Time should be better spent learning a trade and pursuing something that's marketable. But instead of teaching kids such things ahead of time, we fuel them with false hope (compounded by their parents) and then set them up for failure.

The better approach would be to teach kids to research and assess different career paths and different job markets.. to learn about supply and demand, market saturation etc.

Anyway I sound like I'm getting off track but I'm really not. My thread title is a product of a poor education system involving both schools and parents. Too many people are being set up for failure. I believe goro said that ~25% of med school applicants "have no business setting foot on a medical school campus." The number grows when you consider the attrition along the way, in fact it multiplies.

Basically I agree with this. The problem is a lot more complex than just the "system" and parents, however. The US is an incredibly diverse country and tackling any large-scale social problem in the nation is like tackling the same problem divided into about 500 different microcosms of race, class, population density, politics, costs, etc. The public education apparatus is severely lacking in the US, don't get me wrong, and there's a lot of work that needs to be done but the problem is absolutely massive and we can't just say "fix this plz". I'm sure you know that, I'm just adding that to avoid a yah! Fix the Schools! For Dem Kids! posts.

 

[DermViser]

However, I don't blame them completely because it's a product of the system we're in. The pre-med process is such that we just keep thinking about acceptance, acceptance, acceptance and little beyond that. Because the admissions process is so competitive, we get bogged down in just trying to get IN to medical school without taking the time to understand what is beyond medical school, how residency is like, what being a doctor is actually like, etc. But again, with all these science courses, the need to get good grades, taking the MCAT, doing research/volunteering, etc., it's very easy to focus solely on the immediate gain instead of looking ahead and understanding what life as a physician is really like.

^^^THIS.

Not surprised when a higher and higher percentage of students are affluent rich kids who have never ever held a REAL job in their lives and have no knowledge of economics and ROI. Med school admissions has become such a checklist that premeds do activities to get into med school, rather than doing clinical activities that are a real representation of clinical medicine, to see of whether they actually like medicine (and not just the lifestyle specialties -which there is no assurance of getting).

 

[Lucca]

I totally agree that many pre-meds are not informed about residency; heck, I've come across pre-meds (and I'm talking juniors/seniors, not freshmen in their first semester) who don't know major things about the medical school admissions process, such as the type of letters of rec you're supposed to get, what kind of GPAs/MCATs are considered competitive, etc. Many pre-meds simply don't take out the time to do research and understand the process beforehand.

However, I don't blame them completely because it's a product of the system we're in. The pre-med process is such that we just keep thinking about acceptance, acceptance, acceptance and little beyond that. Because the admissions process is so competitive, we get bogged down in just trying to get IN to medical school without taking the time to understand what is beyond medical school, how residency is like, what being a doctor is actually like, etc. But again, with all these science courses, the need to get good grades, taking the MCAT, doing research/volunteering, etc., it's very easy to focus solely on the immediate gain instead of looking ahead and understanding what life as a physician is really like.

Expand this into a TED talk and just send it out to every premed right now and in perpetuity, forever.

Then replace medicine with everything and write a self-help book and make millions.

 

[geneexpression]

I totally agree that many pre-meds are not informed about residency; heck, I've come across pre-meds (and I'm talking juniors/seniors, not freshmen in their first semester) who don't know major things about the medical school admissions process, such as the type of letters of rec you're supposed to get, what kind of GPAs/MCATs are considered competitive, etc. Many pre-meds simply don't take out the time to do research and understand the process beforehand.

The schools also, to an extent, lie to the students. At least my school does. The pre-med committee will write a LOR for anyone with at least a 3.2 GPA and a 22 on the MCAT. So we have pre-meds with 3.4 GPAs prancing around thinking they're competitive. I had a guy in my genetics class tell me he just needed to keep his GPA at 3.2, and he'll get into med school. And he was serious.

There's just such a complete lack of transparency in the process at so many levels.

 

[studentp0x]

I'm not sure if I agree or disagree lol. On one hand, I think that it's not developmentally possible for a high school age individual to begin making mature, rational decisions about his or her future career. On the other hand, if I could redo high school knowing what I know now about the real world, I would have approached the entire thing differently, and this is coming from someone who was a mostly A student; I didn't screw up high school in the same way that someone who did drugs their entire way through did, but I also wasn't very focused on my future while I was there. I didn't know what I had to do to prepare myself better for my future other than to get good grades. I knew nothing about different careers and "the real world" in general. Part of me wishes I did, but another part of me thinks kids that age should be allowed those years to have fun and be naive of what the real world entails.

It may not be possible on their own (although I was very well aware of the job market, and such things way back in grade 11) but the school system should put major emphasis on these things.

 

[armybound]

However, I don't blame them completely because it's a product of the system we're in. The pre-med process is such that we just keep thinking about acceptance, acceptance, acceptance and little beyond that. Because the admissions process is so competitive, we get bogged down in just trying to get IN to medical school without taking the time to understand what is beyond medical school, how residency is like, what being a doctor is actually like, etc. But again, with all these science courses, the need to get good grades, taking the MCAT, doing research/volunteering, etc., it's very easy to focus solely on the immediate gain instead of looking ahead and understanding what life as a physician is really like.

shouldn't you know what you're trying so hard to get accepted to? do you really know you want to be a doctor if you don't know what you have to do to get there?

I can't tell you how many times I heard "pre-meds" say they wanted to go to medical school so they could be a psychologist. Did that person have any clue what they were doing?

 

[studentp0x]

The schools also, to an extent, lie to the students. At least my school does. The pre-med committee will write a LOR for anyone with at least a 3.2 GPA and a 22 on the MCAT. So we have pre-meds with 3.4 GPAs prancing around thinking they're competitive. I had a guy in my genetics class tell me he just needed to keep his GPA at 3.2, and he'll get into med school. And he was serious.

There's just such a complete lack of transparency in the process at so many levels.

well.. the 3.2 guys have a shot at DO if their MCAT is higher, so that isn't very unrealistic.

 

[Lucca]

The schools also, to an extent, lie to the students. At least my school does. The pre-med committee will write a LOR for anyone with at least a 3.2 GPA and a 22 on the MCAT. So we have pre-meds with 3.4 GPAs prancing around thinking they're competitive. I had a guy in my genetics class tell me he just needed to keep his GPA at 3.2, and he'll get into med school. And he was serious.

There's just such a complete lack of transparency in the process at so many levels.

At least it's not as opaque as undergrad admissions. At least once you get to universities you can stumble upon a peer group or seek out mentorship, but if you are from a non-competitive, non-university feeding high school or living situation then knowing anything about college is just impossible. Especially if you are an immigrant.

I'm an immigrant and went to a competitive, college-feeding high school and I had no clue how college admissions even worked until I filled out my first app the summer of my junior year. Now that's opacity.

College admissions: Another level where you can lose possibly highly productive members of society because of lack of instruction on gaining marketable skills, personal satisfaction, and security at a very critical point in your life.

 

[sharkbyte]

The schools also, to an extent, lie to the students. At least my school does. The pre-med committee will write a LOR for anyone with at least a 3.2 GPA and a 22 on the MCAT. So we have pre-meds with 3.4 GPAs prancing around thinking they're competitive. I had a guy in my genetics class tell me he just needed to keep his GPA at 3.2, and he'll get into med school. And he was serious.

There's just such a complete lack of transparency in the process at so many levels.

A couple of summers ago I went home and took Calculus at a community college to get it out of the way, and a guy who went to my high school was in the class. We didn't actually talk when we were in high school itself but we became friends after the class, and one day on FB he told me "Whatever though everyone's bound to get in somewhere as long you're over like a 3.3 and have like a 30+ MCAT."

Sigh

 

[studentp0x]

Basically I agree with this. The problem is a lot more complex than just the "system" and parents, however. The US is an incredibly diverse country and tackling any large-scale social problem in the nation is like tackling the same problem divided into about 500 different microcosms of race, class, population density, politics, costs, etc. The public education apparatus is severely lacking in the US, don't get me wrong, and there's a lot of work that needs to be done but the problem is absolutely massive and we can't just say "fix this plz". I'm sure you know that, I'm just adding that to avoid a yah! Fix the Schools! For Dem Kids! posts.

I know, but the curriculum should cover these things in detail. In Canada we have a half semester mandatory course for careers.... of which you learn very little.

 

[geneexpression]

well.. the 3.2 guys have a shot at DO if their MCAT is higher, so that isn't very unrealistic.

A 22 on the MCAT doesn't constitute a higher score, though, which is what the school is telling students they need to be competitive. Maybe I've been reading the wrong information myself, however, because I thought 3.2 was considered pretty low for DO as well.

 

[Ace-Co-A]

Or at least know very very little about it.

How do you pursue a career and invest time and money without having at least a basic idea of what the path is like? I understand not everyone comes on SDN and and lurks every thread, reads every article etc etc. But it makes sense to have a general idea at least.

Having talked to pre-meds from 2 other schools and my own, it's almost common for them to not know what residency really is OR they have a strong misconception about it. And I think this is what leads many people to the caribbean/ireland/australia etc.

They assume that as long as you pass a med school that's accredited, then you're good to go. Many think that when you're done, you just come back and get a job. Or something along those lines. The ones who do know often think getting into a residency is basically guaranteed.

Personally I really think any pre-med advisors/clubs/whatevers should educate people about this process and the reality of it.

Do you have a specific example in mind? I can't say I've really come across this type of ignorance.

 

[geneexpression]

A couple of summers ago I went home and took Calculus at a community college to get it out of the way, and a guy who went to my high school was in the class. We didn't actually talk when we were in high school itself but we became friends after the class, and one day on FB he told me "Whatever though everyone's bound to get in somewhere as long you're over like a 3.3 and have like a 30+ MCAT."

Sigh

Sigh indeed.

I mostly am just annoyed that there isn't a more direct way to provide the students with the information they need, though. If you don't spend a significant amount of time on SDN, I imagine it must be pretty difficult to know where to look to find each piece of information that you need...and there are a lot of pieces.

 

[sharkbyte]

shouldn't you know what you're trying so hard to get accepted to? do you really know you want to be a doctor if you don't know what you have to do to get there?

I can't tell you how many times I heard "pre-meds" say they wanted to go to medical school so they could be a psychologist. Did that person have any clue what they were doing?

Oh, I totally agree. And in fact, I think it's interesting that you quoted the second paragraph of my post because my first paragraph is pretty much the same thing that you are saying.

I more or less meant that the system essentially forces us to think about medical school acceptance and only medical school acceptance at times. Plus, if you hit a major road block -- low MCAT score, poor GPA, lack of meaningful clinical experience - you will spend even more time worrying about that acceptance, and residency won't even be anywhere near the front of your mind at that point. It needs to change, but that's how the system is.

 

[studentp0x]

Do you have a specific example in mind? I can't say I've really come across this type of ignorance.

Multiple pre-meds I personally know who think finish med school = automatic job right after. And not the residency type job lol.

 

[Lucca]

Sigh indeed.

I mostly am just annoyed that there isn't a more direct way to provide the students with the information they need, though. If you don't spend a significant amount of time on SDN, I imagine it must be pretty difficult to know where to look to find each piece of information that you need...and there are a lot of pieces.

To be fair, the information on SDN can be heavily skewed and even on here there is a degree of opacity in that the "average" application quality is most likely above average. It depends on the quality of your health-professions office at your university. It helps if your undergrad is institution is somehow affiliated with medical schools so ex-adcoms or other (actually in-touch) professionals are there to assist you.

 

[studentp0x]

Oh, I totally agree. And in fact, I think it's interesting that you quoted the second paragraph of my post because my first paragraph is pretty much the same thing that you are saying.

I more or less meant that the system essentially forces us to think about medical school acceptance and only medical school acceptance at times. Plus, if you hit a major road block -- low MCAT score, poor GPA, lack of meaningful clinical experience - you will spend even more time worrying about that acceptance, and residency won't even be anywhere near the front of your mind at that point. It needs to change, but that's how the system is.

Certain road blocks often mean it's time to pursue something else. If you have a 2.2 in 3rd year... medicine isn't for you.

Our system sets us up for unrealistic goals which leads to failure and frustration. Many people would spend their time better actually making money (ex. trade) rather than giving it to universities for degrees which hold little value.

 

[Ace-Co-A]

Multiple pre-meds I personally know who think finish med school = automatic job right after. And not the residency type job lol.

That simple, huh? I was hoping you had a funny story.

I think medicine is sort of a sexy career (hi TV shows!) and people just kinda throw it out there that they wanna go to medical school without thinking about it.

 

[Godspeedyou]

Excuse me? First of all I was a premed in university. Premeds have the highest IQ out of all students on average in every university around the nation


Premeds are creme da la creme of universities. You should be proud to get the chance to learn with them. No other students are more well-rounded than a premed. Premeds must master chemistry, physics, mathematics, and biology. It's quite the astonishing feat that deserves a tremendous amount of respect but never does because other students are JEALOUS. They are jealous of how successful the premeds will be in the future, they are jealous of how learned premeds are. That's where the hatred stems from, jealousy. It's quite humorous to be honest. I would always received undeserved hatred from fellow science majors because I was a premed, even though I was 5x more learned and 5x more determined in numerous fields of science.

Now I'm looking back at those people who gave me hate and it's funny because they aren't even going to be making half of what I will be making once I leave medical school. I used their hatred to propel me through university and I will do the same to propel me through medical school

 

[geneexpression]

To be fair, the information on SDN can be heavily skewed and even on here there is a degree of opacity in that the "average" application quality is most likely above average. It depends on the quality of your health-professions office at your university. It helps if your undergrad is institution is somehow affiliated with medical schools so ex-adcoms or other (actually in-touch) professionals are there to assist you.

That is a very good point and one that I often forget myself. lol. I guess it's better to accept the picture of reality portrayed on SDN and aim higher than may be necessary than to accept the picture of reality presented by a faulty pre-med committee and aim lower than necessary.

Or maybe I'm just biased and always assume universities will lie to you. After all, my alma mater told me my English degree would be highly marketable.

 

[Lucca]

That simple, huh? I was hoping you had a funny story.

I think medicine is sort of a sexy career (hi TV shows!) and people just kinda throw it out there that they wanna go to medical school without thinking about it.

I have a funny story.

Talking with some random guy after a test. He's a third-year. It's physics. Paraphrasing for time but it's the gist.

*blahblahblah test banter*
Me: Yah well I hope I did well, this test might be the difference between the A and the B this semester.
Him: It's the same for me too, the last test set me back a lot and I don't want to let my GPA drop. It's already pretty good for medical school as it is and I just want to keep it that way.
Me: Oh you're a premed too? Nice, man. Do you have any idea what kind of specialty you want to go into yet?
Him: Well my major is neurobio and I've thought all of those classes were really interesting so maybe Neurosurgery or neurology or something like that.
Me: Damn, Neurosurgery? That's too much residency for me, I think.
Him: Yah but at least you get paid like 500k so it's not that big a deal how long it takes to practice on your own.
Me: Ummm I might be wrong but I'm fairly sure all resident physicians get paid less than 80k while they are in training.
Him: What? Really? Well maybe I'll start neurology and then if I want to do surgery still I can move into that later.
Me: Well I think you have you match into one specialty and then after that it's either impossible or an enormous pain in the ass to match into another specialty.
Him: What do you mean *match*?

 

[Lucca]

That is a very good point and one that I often forget myself. lol. I guess it's better to accept the picture of reality portrayed on SDN and aim higher than may be necessary than to accept the picture of reality presented by a faulty pre-med committee and aim lower than necessary.

Or maybe I'm just biased and always assume universities will lie to you. After all, my alma mater told me my English degree would be highly marketable.

An English degree is perfectly marketable.

If you have taken Data Structures, Algorithms, and Operating Systems and are a fairly competent programmer.

We shouldn't tell our children to run away from the liberal arts at all costs because they are useless - precisely because they are absolutely useful. I apply my knowledge from my liberal arts classes everyday in about everything I do but my physics and chemistry only comes out on test days, when I'm trying to help others learn, and the 15% of time in the research lab where I'm doing creative work and not mechanical procedures.

We should tell our children that the liberal arts alone cannot make you marketable. It's fine to love the violin, Chaucer, or French - but you should also know how to sell things and build things, preferably.

 

[armybound]

Sigh indeed.

I mostly am just annoyed that there isn't a more direct way to provide the students with the information they need, though. If you don't spend a significant amount of time on SDN, I imagine it must be pretty difficult to know where to look to find each piece of information that you need...and there are a lot of pieces.

That information is everywhere. It's on wikipedia. It should be readily available to anybody who desires the knowledge. you can google "how to become a doctor" and it's right there.

I'm not sure if you're talking about the specific details like GPA/MCAT requirements, LORs, etc. I'm talking more in general terms like knowing that you need to go to medical school, how long it is, knowing that you need to do a residency, etc.

 

[Ace-Co-A]

I have a funny story.

Talking with some random guy after a test. He's a third-year. It's physics. Paraphrasing for time but it's the gist.

*blahblahblah test banter*
Me: Yah well I hope I did well, this test might be the difference between the A and the B this semester.
Him: It's the same for me too, the last test set me back a lot and I don't want to let my GPA drop. It's already pretty good for medical school as it is and I just want to keep it that way.
Me: Oh you're a premed too? Nice, man. Do you have any idea what kind of specialty you want to go into yet?
Him: Well my major is neurobio and I've thought all of those classes were really interesting so maybe Neurosurgery or neurology or something like that.
Me: Damn, Neurosurgery? That's too much residency for me, I think.
Him: Yah but at least you get paid like 500k so it's not that big a deal how long it takes to practice on your own.
Me: Ummm I might be wrong but I'm fairly sure all resident physicians get paid less than 80k while they are in training.
Him: What? Really? Well maybe I'll start neurology and then if I want to do surgery still I can move into that later.
Me: Well I think you have you match into one specialty and then after that it's either impossible or an enormous pain in the ass to match into another specialty.
Him: What do you mean *match*?

lol this situation was pretty boring until I saw the bolded sentence. that might be my favorite sentence in the history of all things.

 

[DermViser]

The schools also, to an extent, lie to the students. At least my school does. The pre-med committee will write a LOR for anyone with at least a 3.2 GPA and a 22 on the MCAT. So we have pre-meds with 3.4 GPAs prancing around thinking they're competitive. I had a guy in my genetics class tell me he just needed to keep his GPA at 3.2, and he'll get into med school. And he was serious.

There's just such a complete lack of transparency in the process at so many levels.

With respect to stats, there is transparency --- just look at the MSAR. The problem is that guy is delusional. That being said, he may end up being correct and getting into a DO school.

 

[Lucca]

lol this situation was pretty boring until I saw the bolded sentence. that might be my favorite sentence in the history of all things.

Well, I needed to give you some context. That's what got me too but what really struck me was that he didn't know about matching. I remember when I learned about matching during my first clinical experience in high school. I was like "WTF, why cant I just interview for a job like a normal person."

I get it now, but it's a weird beast.

 

[geneexpression]

An English degree is perfectly marketable.

If you have taken Data Structures, Algorithms, and Operating Systems and are a fairly competent programmer.

We shouldn't tell our children to run away from the liberal arts at all costs because they are useless - precisely because they are absolutely useful. I apply my knowledge from my liberal arts classes everyday in about everything I do but my physics and chemistry only comes out on test days, when I'm trying to help others learn, and the 15% of time in the research lab where I'm doing creative work and not mechanical procedures.

We should tell our children that the liberal arts alone cannot make you marketable. It's fine to love the violin, Chaucer, or French - but you should also know how to sell things and build things, preferably.

Yes, I agree completely. I'm not someone who thinks the liberal arts are useless at all, which is why, even though I'm now having to back-track and check off all of the pre-med boxes as a post-bacc, I don't think my undergrad experience was completely useless. Majoring in the liberal arts certainly gives you a unique perspective on the world and human interactions. The problem, obviously, is that it's not enough to make you marketable in and of itself, except for maybe if your dream job is to be an English teacher. If I could go back in time, I'd probably still major in English or maybe Psychology. I would just be on the pre-med track this time around. I had no clue you could be pre-med with a non-science major at the time. No one ever informed me. I was told that just having the degree would open tons of doors, and I foolishly figured it was safe to trust my professors and advisors.

 

[DermViser]

Excuse me? First of all I was a premed in university. Premeds have the highest IQ out of all students on average in every university around the nation

Premeds are creme da la creme of universities. You should be proud to get the chance to learn with them. No other students are more well-rounded than a premed. Premeds must master chemistry, physics, mathematics, and biology. It's quite the astonishing feat that deserves a tremendous amount of respect but never does because other students are JEALOUS. They are jealous of how successful the premeds will be in the future, they are jealous of how learned premeds are. That's where the hatred stems from, jealousy. It's quite humorous to be honest. I would always received undeserved hatred from fellow science majors because I was a premed, even though I was 5x more learned and 5x more determined in numerous fields of science.

Now I'm looking back at those people who gave me hate and it's funny because they aren't even going to be making half of what I will be making once I leave medical school. I used their hatred to propel me through university and I will do the same to propel me through medical school

 

[Lucca]

Yes, I agree completely. I'm not someone who thinks the liberal arts are useless at all, which is why, even though I'm now having to back-track and check off all of the pre-med boxes as a post-bacc, I don't think my undergrad experience was completely useless. Majoring in the liberal arts certainly gives you a unique perspective on the world and human interactions. The problem, obviously, is that it's not enough to make you marketable in and of itself, except for maybe if your dream job is to be an English teacher. If I could go back in time, I'd probably still major in English or maybe Psychology. I would just be on the pre-med track this time around. I had no clue you could be pre-med with a non-science major at the time. No one ever informed me. I was told that just having the degree would open tons of doors, and I foolishly figured it was safe to trust my professors and advisors.

I think knowing that major doesn't matter was the biggest turning point for me too as far big admissions epiphanies go. The degree value thing might have been true when they went to school but it certainly isn't anymore.

I do have a friend who is graduating this year (English+Philosophy) and is becoming an English teacher at a private academy in France. Not going to lie, for a brief second, fell in love with how romantic that sounded and wanted to drop everything and improve my french lol.

 

[geneexpression]

I think knowing that major doesn't matter was the biggest turning point for me too as far big admissions epiphanies go. The degree value thing might have been true when they went to school but it certainly isn't anymore.

I do have a friend who is graduating this year (English+Philosophy) and is becoming an English teacher at a private academy in France. Not going to lie, for a brief second, fell in love with how romantic that sounded and wanted to drop everything and improve my french lol.

Oh, I hear those stories about people who travel overseas to teach English and think how exciting it sounds too haha. Then I remember what a terrible teacher I make. I always wonder how that works, too. I know a few people who traveled to places like Spanish-speaking countries to teach English, and yet they themselves had little to no fluency in Spanish. I don't get how you communicate with your students if you don't speak their language, but I guess it's done!

 

[Lucca]

Oh, I hear those stories about people who travel overseas to teach English and think how exciting it sounds too haha. Then I remember what a terrible teacher I make. I always wonder how that works, too. I know a few people who traveled to places like Spanish-speaking countries to teach English, and yet they themselves had little to no fluency in Spanish. I don't get how you communicate with your students if you don't speak their language, but I guess it's done!

When I mentor or teach I communicate fully through shadow puppets. Great for kids and, surprisingly, calculus.

 

[geneexpression]

When I mentor or teach I communicate fully through shadow puppets. Great for kids and, surprisingly, calculus.

Wow, intriguing strategy!

 

[The Buff OP]

Or at least know very very little about it.

How do you pursue a career and invest time and money without having at least a basic idea of what the path is like? I understand not everyone comes on SDN and and lurks every thread, reads every article etc etc. But it makes sense to have a general idea at least.

Having talked to pre-meds from 2 other schools and my own, it's almost common for them to not know what residency really is OR they have a strong misconception about it. And I think this is what leads many people to the caribbean/ireland/australia etc.

They assume that as long as you pass a med school that's accredited, then you're good to go. Many think that when you're done, you just come back and get a job. Or something along those lines. The ones who do know often think getting into a residency is basically guaranteed.

Personally I really think any pre-med advisors/clubs/whatevers should educate people about this process and the reality of it.

Some just say they want to become a doctor, but don't really have the heart to actually do it. When I realize I wanted to become a doctor, I spent days researching about it and lurking the SDN forums, until this day I still learn new things. I have a friend who says he also wants to become a doctor, but has no idea about it. He wanted to become a nurse first to get some "experience" for medical school then apply to medical school just because his counselor said he had a good idea.

I offer my friend to come over to my house and I was going to school him on the process to reach his "goal" he never showed up to my house. Some people are just all talk, but don't want it bad.

 

[pepocho]

.

 

[Muffinho]

5-6 years residency
300k debt
Get replaced by a NP

Living the life.

 

[NontradCA]

I've met an accepted student who didn't know what a residency was.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Residency is a huge problem for me. I'm "in state" for a state that I'm dying to escape.

 

[moop]

All this talk about residency…

http://www.americanprogress.org/tag/immigration-reform/view/

 

[worfndata]

tons of pre meds dont even know what DO is. tons of premeds will never ever set foot in any medical school. right.