Is it more difficult for osteopathic residents to get into competitive medicine fellowships than...

[Lord_Vader]

allopaths? The only reason why I'm asking is because I've never seen a DO cardiologist, hem/onc, or gastroenterologist. I'm wondering if the "DO" title follows you all the way even into residency.

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[deleted407021]

DO IM sub specialists are everywhere. Google reveals a lot. There are quite a few in my area. Of course, there is regional variation to this.


It is more difficult for DOs to find themselves in IM subspecialties because the feeder residencies to those fellowships are typically more populated by MDs.

 

[Rekt]

allopaths? The only reason why I'm asking is because I've never seen a DO cardiologist, hem/onc, or gastroenterologist. I'm wondering if the "DO" title follows you all the way even into residency.

It's more that it affects where you go to residency. It's much more difficult to match upper tier IM residency, where they place a lot of residents into competitive IM fellowship positions.

As a DO, our best shot is middle tier university IM programs. Sure, people match sometimes into upper tier programs, but you want to be realistic.

 

[Psai]

It's more that it affects where you go to residency. It's much more difficult to match upper tier IM residency, where they place a lot of residents into competitive IM fellowship positions.

As a DO, our best shot is middle tier university IM programs. Sure, people match sometimes into upper tier programs, but you want to be realistic.

Which upper tiers are we talking about?

 

[hallowmann]

allopaths? The only reason why I'm asking is because I've never seen a DO cardiologist, hem/onc, or gastroenterologist. I'm wondering if the "DO" title follows you all the way even into residency.

There's a lot in my area. The anti-DO sentiment is less prevalent at the fellowship level (although its still present), but since there's a decent amount for university IM at the residency level, it automatically limits the number of DOs going for fellowship. There's also not that many AOA fellowships compared to ACGME fellowships, so there's that too.

 

[Psai]

There's a lot in my area. The anti-DO sentiment is less prevalent at the fellowship level (although its still present), but since there's a decent amount for university IM at the residency level, it automatically limits the number of DOs going for fellowship. There's also not that many AOA fellowships compared to ACGME fellowships, so there's that too.

No one hates dos for being do. You chose it, it's not like you were born with it and the victim mindset is very tiresome. Programs just want the best students possible and grab from the best schools they can. Same for fellowship, they go for the best residencies.

 

[deleted407021]

No one hates dos for being do. You chose it, it's not like you were born with it and the victim mindset is very tiresome. Programs just want the best students possible and grab from the best schools they can. Same for fellowship, they go for the best residencies.

Jesus Christ, you're an insufferable person. You're so easily triggered by DO posters that you see "delusion" where there is none. Saying that DOs are blocked out of many spots and that they fight uphill and often loosing battles to get into certain programs (all reasonable) isn't enough for you. You want them to go around as you do spouting inferiority because, for some weird alarming reason, that's the only way you can possibly perceive them to be honest.

You've got a problem and I really wish more people would push back against your nonsense. You can't manage to make a well reasoned post about DOs without first qualifying it with some unwarranted BS vitriol.

You're not contributing to the professional discourse this forum is designed to host and there's no reason we should be ok with that.

 

[Psai]

Triggered? I'm not sure what you're going on about.

 

[username456789]

You're not contributing to the professional discourse this forum is designed to host and there's no reason we should be ok with that.

I'm sure you could find a safe space on your local undergraduate campus where you wouldn't have to be subjected to such ideas that are contrary to your own.

 

[hallowmann]

No one hates dos for being do. You chose it, it's not like you were born with it and the victim mindset is very tiresome. Programs just want the best students possible and grab from the best schools they can. Same for fellowship, they go for the best residencies.

The funny thing is that I specifically didn't use the term "discrimination" to prevent backlash from people like you that scream "its not discrimination, they just don't like to accept any DOs regardless of stats". I guess I failed on that one.

How would you like me to say that programs exclude DOs for being DOs regardless of their stats? I guess I should always say something like "programs don't take DOs, and rightfully so, because DOs are the unwashed scum of medical education that could never compare to any glorious MD regardless of how much better their stats may be". Does that work? Let me know so I can more effectively tiptoe around you and MT whenever I post anything on these forums .



Also, on a separate note, just because something is a choice doesn't mean you can't discriminate against someone for that choice. As an example, religion is a choice. Plenty of people discriminate against others for their religion (or lack of it). Again though, this doesn't really have anything to do with what we're talking about.

 

[deleted407021]

Triggered? I'm not sure what you're going on about.

Try quoting next time. It's more polite.


Don't be obtuse. Your knee-jerk responses to other posters on this topic is a consistent pattern in your behavior. It's weird. Maybe you could explain where it comes from.

 

[the argus]

Which upper tiers are we talking about?

University of Washington takes DOs occasionally.

 

[Psai]

The funny thing is that I specifically didn't use the term "discrimination" to prevent backlash from people like you that scream "its not discrimination, they just don't like to accept any DOs regardless of stats". I guess I failed on that one.

How would you like me to say that programs exclude DOs for being DOs regardless of their stats? I guess I should always say something like "programs don't take DOs, and rightfully so, because DOs are the unwashed scum of medical education that could never compare to any glorious MD regardless of how much better their stats may be". Does that work? Let me know so I can more effectively tiptoe around you and MT whenever I post anything on these forums .

What are you talking about? You have my post in quotes and you're going on about discrimination in quotes as if I said it. I don't understand the hyperbole, especially when you're coming to the md section.

Every year dos come through here and in real life like wow I didn't realize how hard residency applications and matching would be. I don't want future and current medical students to end up like you guys, all bitter and looking to play the victim. It's misleading and annoying.

 

[deleted407021]

What are you talking about? You have my post in quotes and you're going on about discrimination in quotes as if I said it. I don't understand the hyperbole, especially when you're coming to the md section.

Every year dos come through here and in real life like wow I didn't realize how hard residency applications and matching would be. I don't want future and current medical students to end up like you guys, all bitter and looking to play the victim. It's misleading and annoying.

Oh please. Your attempt to turn this around is blatantly transparent. You can't get onto him for being hyperbolic and basically attempting to make sense of your post when you're the one who quoted him as being delusional for ... what? There was the knee-jerk response I was talking about.

And stop with this hero nonsense about you just standing up for all the sad med students. You really think going on about inferiority and victim complexes all while being stridently obnoxious is actually all that helpful?

 

[hallowmann]

What are you talking about? You have my post in quotes and you're going on about discrimination in quotes as if I said it. I don't understand the hyperbole, especially when you're coming to the md section.

Every year dos come through here and in real life like wow I didn't realize how hard residency applications and matching would be. I don't want future and current medical students to end up like you guys, all bitter and looking to play the victim. It's misleading and annoying.

You missed the point of my post. The only one talking about playing the victim is you. At no point did I exhibit victim-hood or bitterness. I was essentially stating what the residency and fellowship app process is like and how that might affect DO presence in competitive fellowships (which you obviously agree with). I was making no judgement call, I was not screaming "UNFAIR!!!", etc. You are the one that made it about that.

Read my original post again, its pretty tame and straightforward. You just read it with your preconceived notion of what a DO would say and through the eyes of a probably tired (and frustrated with his ancillary staff) intern Psai and not a well-rested, everyday Psai.

 

[Rekt]

What are you talking about? You have my post in quotes and you're going on about discrimination in quotes as if I said it. I don't understand the hyperbole, especially when you're coming to the md section.

Every year dos come through here and in real life like wow I didn't realize how hard residency applications and matching would be. I don't want future and current medical students to end up like you guys, all bitter and looking to play the victim. It's misleading and annoying.

Most DOs know their limitations. If not, then other students or admin help them quickly sift through their delusions. If they still believe they're matching that combined plastics derm, then hey, someone needs to fill those SOAP spots.

The bitterness doesn't arise from DOs playing victim. It arises from the constant threesome circlejerk between you, MT, and username who all need to continuously bash and hate on DOs to perpetuate the thought of DO inferiority that barely exists beyond academic ivory towers and to feed your own superiority complexes to help you sleep at night.

 

[Psai]

You guys are really annoying.

Op, the answer to your question is yes and all you need to do is look up to see why.

Btw my ancillary staff are awesome right now and I'd thank you not to malign them.

 

[hallowmann]

You guys are really annoying.

Op, the answer to your question is yes and all you need to do is look up to see why.

Btw my ancillary staff are awesome right now and I'd thank you not to malign them.

Haha, my bad man, no disrespect to them, I was basing that off of a previous post you made. Glad to see things have improved.

 

[username456789]

Most DOs know their limitations. If not, then other students or admin help them quickly sift through their delusions. If they still believe they're matching that combined plastics derm, then hey, someone needs to fill those SOAP spots.

The bitterness doesn't arise from DOs playing victim. It arises from the constant threesome circlejerk between you, MT, and username who all need to continuously bash and hate on DOs to perpetuate the thought of DO inferiority that barely exists beyond academic ivory towers and to feed your own superiority complexes to help you sleep at night.

I don't hate DOs. But I do think there are some fundamental problems with the structure of the clinical education on a wide scale.

All too often that gets overlooked, and then you have kids looking silly saying "I may be a DO student but I got a 250 so there should be no bias!" The issue is largely with the unpreparedness I've seen in the third and fourth years, and transitioning into interns.

 

[235009]

allopaths? The only reason why I'm asking is because I've never seen a DO cardiologist, hem/onc, or gastroenterologist. I'm wondering if the "DO" title follows you all the way even into residency.

Hey OP, as an actual IM subspecialty fellow I was going to try and answer your question but at this point with at least two members insulting me out of the blue I'm going to just sit back and watch your well-intentioned thread devolve into a flame war. I'm sorry you couldn't find the answer to your question on SDN because some people find it more important to slander other members.

Good luck.

 

[hallowmann]

Hey OP, as an actual IM subspecialty fellow I was going to try and answer your question but at this point with at least two members insulting me out of the blue I'm going to just sit back and watch your well-intentioned thread devolve into a flame war. I'm sorry you couldn't find the answer to your question on SDN because some people find it more important to slander other members.

Good luck.

You've watched this thread over an hour ago and then you are only motivated to post that you would help had two people not mentioned ("insulted") you (45 min ago). The passive aggression is palpable.

By the way, the only reason I mentioned you was because you've ripped people a new one for using the term "DO discrimination" before.

 

[Azete]

Yes it's harder, and while we're on the topic I don't think the DO discrimination is going to disappear anytime soon. I'm at a DO school (mostly for family reasons), and the majority of our class is filled will highly capable students that I have no question will go on to become stellar physicians -- on par with most MDs. However, the bottom 20-30% of our class really has no business being in med school; it's honestly a little terrifying when you think about them having complete autonomy one day over patients. These students will go to residencies (because that's what the statistics say), and work alongside MDs that will use their experiences with them to further justify their DO stigma.

Combine this with the fact that most DO schools have terrible clinical years (ours are actually pretty good, because we share most of them with the local MD school), leading to unprepared interns (even in highly capable students) that PDs see MD graduates run circles around, and you sort of wonder why they would ever take a DO that they would need to invest more resources into just to be on par with the 100 other MD applicants. If you run a top tier program, and you see two genius students applying, aren't you going to take the one that's ready to work Day 1? There's just not much incentive for them to take the DO.

 

[URMD]

allopaths? The only reason why I'm asking is because I've never seen a DO cardiologist, hem/onc, or gastroenterologist. I'm wondering if the "DO" title follows you all the way even into residency.

DO IM sub specialists are everywhere. Google reveals a lot. There are quite a few in my area. Of course, there is regional variation to this.


It is more difficult for DOs to find themselves in IM subspecialties because the feeder residencies to those fellowships are typically more populated by MDs.

It's more that it affects where you go to residency. It's much more difficult to match upper tier IM residency, where they place a lot of residents into competitive IM fellowship positions.

As a DO, our best shot is middle tier university IM programs. Sure, people match sometimes into upper tier programs, but you want to be realistic.

Yes it's harder, and while we're on the topic I don't think the DO discrimination is going to disappear anytime soon. I'm at a DO school (mostly for family reasons), and the majority of our class is filled will highly capable students that I have no question will go on to become stellar physicians -- on par with most MDs. However, the bottom 20-30% of our class really has no business being in med school; it's honestly a little terrifying when you think about them having complete autonomy one day over patients. These students will go to residencies (because that's what the statistics say), and work alongside MDs that will use their experiences with them to further justify their DO stigma.

Combine this with the fact that most DO schools have terrible clinical years (ours are actually pretty good, because we share most of them with the local MD school), leading to unprepared interns (even in highly capable students) that PDs see MD graduates run circles around, and you sort of wonder why they would ever take a DO that they would need to invest more resources into just to be on par with the 100 other MD applicants. If you run a top tier program, and you see two genius students applying, aren't you going to take the one that's ready to work Day 1? There's just not much incentive for them to take the DO.

I think the answer to this thread has been beaten to death.
Yes it is more difficult

 

[hallowmann]

Yes it's harder, and while we're on the topic I don't think the DO discrimination is going to disappear anytime soon. I'm at a DO school (mostly for family reasons), and the majority of our class is filled will highly capable students that I have no question will go on to become stellar physicians -- on par with most MDs. However, the bottom 20-30% of our class really has no business being in med school; it's honestly a little terrifying when you think about them having complete autonomy one day over patients. These students will go to residencies (because that's what the statistics say), and work alongside MDs that will use their experiences with them to further justify their DO stigma.

Combine this with the fact that most DO schools have terrible clinical years (ours are actually pretty good, because we share most of them with the local MD school), leading to unprepared interns (even in highly capable students) that PDs see MD graduates run circles around, and you sort of wonder why they would ever take a DO that they would need to invest more resources into just to be on par with the 100 other MD applicants. If you run a top tier program, and you see two genius students applying, aren't you going to take the one that's ready to work Day 1? There's just not much incentive for them to take the DO.

This really is generally the case. I will say that most DO schools I know have some really good rotation sites that are like Azete's school. The problem is consistency. I was actually surprised at the quality of most of my rotations, and they compared well with other rotations I had alongside US MD students. The thing is, that's only my experience. There are some people from my school and others that have horror stories about terrible rotations where they learn nothing and no one wants to teach.

That's one of the reasons I don't fault PDs for using a filter. Just on an individual level, don't assume every DO is coming from a 100 bed community hospital with no residents. As colleagues don't assume every DO had terrible training. There are plenty that got training on par with MD schools, they're just mixed in with many that didn't.

 

[QualityProcess]

why is this in the allopathic forum

sorry for the microaggression, MDs

there should probably be a designated thread where this topic can be hashed out completely over 1000s of pages. personal insults should be permitted there. like a Purge for MD vs DO

 

[Mad Jack]

Jesus Christ, you're an insufferable person. You're so easily triggered by DO posters that you see "delusion" where there is none. Saying that DOs are blocked out of many spots and that they fight uphill and often loosing battles to get into certain programs (all reasonable) isn't enough for you. You want them to go around as you do spouting inferiority because, for some weird alarming reason, that's the only way you can possibly perceive them to be honest.

You've got a problem and I really wish more people would push back against your nonsense. You can't manage to make a well reasoned post about DOs without first qualifying it with some unwarranted BS vitriol.

You're not contributing to the professional discourse this forum is designed to host and there's no reason we should be ok with that.

His post wasn't absurd- residencies go for residents from schools that will make their resident list look shiny. Reputation matters when attracting quality residents- many US MDs will judge the competitiveness of a program and whether to apply there partly by their resident list. In medicine, reputation matters, often as much as hard work or talent. It isn't fair, but it's life. Incoming DOs would be well served to keep that in mind throughout training.

 

[SurfingDoctor]

I can tell you, when I look over fellow applications, I don't really care what your title is. I do care what your Step score is (and I would say as a DO, you should take the Step exams, because it makes you more comparable to other applicants). The most important thing however is did you do research or other extracurriculars and what is the vision/5 year plan you have for your career. If you have amazing board scores, but that's all and have no vision of how you plan to contribute to the field, I'm not very interested. If you have okay board scores, but you've been involved in research and other projects and know where you want your career to go, you've got my vote. I judge the individual and their accomplishments, not the title.

However, based on responses in this thread, you may not always get that response. The best advice, work hard, try to get into some project where you can present something, have a passion that goes beyond just patient care, and apply. You'll never know what could have happened if you didn't try.

 

[deleted407021]

His post wasn't absurd- residencies go for residents from schools that will make their resident list look shiny. Reputation matters when attracting quality residents- many US MDs will judge the competitiveness of a program and whether to apply there partly by their resident list. In medicine, reputation matters, often as much as hard work or talent. It isn't fair, but it's life. Incoming DOs would be well served to keep that in mind throughout training.

The actual content of his post was fine. Hence why I suggested he can't be well reasoned without also being antagonistic.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Jesus Christ, you're an insufferable person. You're so easily triggered by DO posters that you see "delusion" where there is none. Saying that DOs are blocked out of many spots and that they fight uphill and often loosing battles to get into certain programs (all reasonable) isn't enough for you. You want them to go around as you do spouting inferiority because, for some weird alarming reason, that's the only way you can possibly perceive them to be honest.

A loosing battle huh. How about a tightening battle?

 

[W19]

The sad part about the DO vs. MD stuff is that even a student from a low tier MD school has an advantage over DO students from good schools... Do PDs really believe school like Universidad Central Del Caribe or Meharry is better than Michigan State College of Osteopathic Medicine?

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

derp

 

[Psai]

The sad part about the DO vs. MD stuff is that even a student from a low tier MD school has an advantage over DO students from good schools... Do PDs really believe school like Universidad Central Del Caribe or Meharry is better than Michigan State College of Osteopathic Medicine?

Meharry easily. Caribbean is not a low tier md school

 

[W19]

Meharry easily. Caribbean is not a low tier md school

Universidad Central Del Caribe is indeed a Caribbean school, but it's a LCME accredited school in Puerto Rico .

 

[hallowmann]

The sad part about the DO vs. MD stuff is that even a student from a low tier MD school has an advantage over DO students from good schools... Do PDs really believe school like Universidad Central Del Caribe or Meharry is better than Michigan State College of Osteopathic Medicine?

The problem is that its much harder for PDs to go through the effort of investigating strong DO schools, than it is to just eliminate all DOs as a population. A simple LCME filter is all you need. It even takes longer to create a filter that eliminates non-LCME, except X, Y, Z school (I even think the LCME filter is actually one of the pre-made ones in ERAS - maybe one of the PDs can verify that). It is what it is. Some PDs and programs go through the effort (and maybe have the time) to evaluate applicants more closely. Others don't. If you've got a thousand apps per position, its not really a big risk.

 

[courtsport]

allopaths? The only reason why I'm asking is because I've never seen a DO cardiologist, hem/onc, or gastroenterologist. I'm wondering if the "DO" title follows you all the way even into residency.

I just shadowed a DO pediatric cardiologist; I think there are less DO's in general so it's hard to really compare right now.

 

[Redpancreas]

Yes it's harder, and while we're on the topic I don't think the DO discrimination is going to disappear anytime soon. I'm at a DO school (mostly for family reasons), and the majority of our class is filled will highly capable students that I have no question will go on to become stellar physicians -- on par with most MDs. However, the bottom 20-30% of our class really has no business being in med school; it's honestly a little terrifying when you think about them having complete autonomy one day over patients. These students will go to residencies (because that's what the statistics say), and work alongside MDs that will use their experiences with them to further justify their DO stigma.

Combine this with the fact that most DO schools have terrible clinical years (ours are actually pretty good, because we share most of them with the local MD school), leading to unprepared interns (even in highly capable students) that PDs see MD graduates run circles around, and you sort of wonder why they would ever take a DO that they would need to invest more resources into just to be on par with the 100 other MD applicants. If you run a top tier program, and you see two genius students applying, aren't you going to take the one that's ready to work Day 1? There's just not much incentive for them to take the DO.

To answer your question OP, there are many but I'd imagine it would be harder to match an ACGME fellowship as a DO, but how much so, I'm not sure.

I think this is the post hits the nail on the head. At my school, there is only one inpatient pediatrics center so the neighboring DO students rotate with us. During my 2 weeks of Peds Inpatient, I saw two DO students who rotated a week each.

The first was interested in Gen Surg and came in on time like the three of us. He presented better than I did, had so-so clinical knowledge based on pimping, and was professional in every degree. He did wake up late on his last day and texted me so I updated him so he could squeeze back in seamlessly. Besides that though, he would fit right in as a student at our school on rotations.

The second was interested in PM&R and a Pain Fellowship and came in late 3/5 days. He avoided presenting and only took the PM&R patient, didn't know how MCV differentiated anemias, thought paint chips were things kids ate off walls, and didn't seem familiar with the signs of lead toxicity. One day the other two of my classmates were at clinic/conference and as an average MD student, I looked like a complete boss. At lunch he talked about how Ortho worked 80 hours a week and earned 500K a week while he would work 40 hours a week and earn 400K. He also talked about how this rotation was the worst he'd ever had which is something no one at our school would do. The resident (a very good, and btw DO resident) chewed him out on the last day which I've never seen happen before on rotations.

Now, as for the differences, the DO school I'm referring to has one of the better reputations and at lunch I asked them a few Qs about their grading scale. Apparently, they have one evaluation filled out by one preceptor. They do not have much continuity as they're in-and-out of teams within a week or less, and they rarely work with residents. Additionally, their shelf is apparently P/F with clinical evaluations that they can honor but aren't treated nearly as serious as ours. I'm not saying that DO students can not be as good as an MD, but I'm also saying it's perfectly reasonable to pick an MD vs. DO with everything else being unknown or equal.

Also, I actually was formerly in a program that guaranteed direct admission for undergrad students into the DO school that has a solid reputation. The only criteria for admission into the program was an essay/interview and to stay in it, you just needed proof of clinical volunteering per semester, a 3.5-GPA average maintained at a state school, and the MCAT was waived. We just had to submit the AACOMAS and secondary statement (no interview). That school last I checked was taking 50+ students or so (out of 300) students from that feeder program per year. Compare that to the other 250 it took from places like California pre-meds with the 30/3.6 situation who probably would have gotten in somewhere if their home state wasn't Cali and the kids that got in from a T-25 ranked school next door with the MCAT and hard earned GPA.

 

[bannie22]

To answer OP, this is another one of the many reasons why the Carribean MD will always trump DO.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

To answer OP, this is another one of the many reasons why the Carribean MD will always trump DO.

Satire?

 

[mcloaf]

To answer OP, this is another one of the many reasons why the Carribean MD will always trump DO.

Surely nobody takes your posts seriously at this point.

 

[Stagg737]

To answer OP, this is another one of the many reasons why the Carribean MD will always trump DO.

Ummm, no.

 

[Lawpy]

To answer OP, this is another one of the many reasons why the Carribean MD will always trump DO.

 

[W19]

PD just need to do their homework in order to choose the best candidate... not the automatic US MD > DO.