- Mar 17, 2010
Or are we only allowed to discuss residency?
...There are plenty of GS residents but around 75% will seek fellowship training -a stable figure for many years now. Thus the shortage of real general surgeons....I have heard that some smaller community surgical practices are offering up to $350,000 a year for general surgeons, at least in Pittsburgh, because they are hard to come by and desperately needed....During my GS sub-I this past November, I heard one of the chiefs ...stayed in GS and was offered 350K for a hospital-salaried position. And that wasn't even in a "rural" hospital. Another chief, who moved back to his hometown in rural NM, was offered 400K......do google searches & such.... 300k+ income with 20-60k signing and 20k relocation are not uncommon. My last GSurge offer was 350-400K with a 45K signing. I didn't like the set-up and passed on it... have had plenty of similar offers after that one.
Not true. I suspect plenty of gen surgeons would love a predominant appy/chole practice. However, hospitals around the country are recruiting for general surgeons that "do it all" to the extreme.... this includes gen surgeons willing to do periph vasc, AAAs, etc.... The fellowship crew would like you to believe you must have a fellowship... may be true in saturated cities and academia but not necessarily a global truth....And many people tell me that the only thing gen surgeons can do these days is appendectomies and cholecystectomies and hernias...
Frankly, I'm not sure how someone survives as a general surgeon in PA, let alone Philly, given the malpractice environment.No, my place really hasn't done much.
What is confusing is that everyone says that everything is an option. And while I understand that is true, it is not terribly helpful. (I do not mean to put down anyone's advice here.)
Perhaps if I am more specific, it will help. One of the places I am interested in is Philadelphia and its suburbs. The thing is that the city is dominated by big academic university hospitals. I'm not really interested in research, but otherwise I'd be thrilled to be at one of those programs. I do hear that people at university programs are usually salaried (and underpaid). But I don't know if they'd even look at me without an interest in research. Or I could go productivity and try for a community hospital. But I'm not sure how to go about finding groups and I also hear lots of horror stories about people suckered into joining groups that keep you as the junior partner to cover weekends and holidays.
Pretty much sums it up.Its all about the local flavor.
...What you are able to do as a general surgeon depends on the local environment, the competition for those cases, what skills you bring and how you market yourself...
Finding employment is a function of multiple resources. All the trade journals have ads at the back, surgical organization web sites have listings, there are headhunters and of course, word of mouth and connections. Use whatever will get you what you want (although bear in mind that most headhunters only want to fill the job, as they get paid if they do, regardless if its right for you)...
Don't be foolish like I was and fail to contract this up front.What is their partnership track and what exactly are they going to try and bleed out of you for buy in... if there is a buy in? Plenty of practices partner without "buy in"... especially if there are no tangible assets, i.e. they don't own the building.
Again, no apologies necessary. You obviously failed to comprehend what was previously stated. So, I am reprinting it:Pardon my asking another question...
So is my best bet to just cold-call a hospital HR department?...
There is no magic bullet and no best answer....Finding employment is a function of multiple resources. All the trade journals have ads at the back, surgical organization web sites have listings, there are headhunters and of course, word of mouth and connections. Use whatever will get you what you want (although bear in mind that most headhunters only want to fill the job, as they get paid if they do, regardless if its right for you)...... Look at websites like Cejka Search, Practice Link, etc. check out the trade journals, talk to groups in your town. Some hospitals have funds to help support a new grad in practice as a loan. Pick up this book to start learning some more....Spend some time with the hospital CEOs when you do interview and get an idea what groups in town are doing what, hospital CEOs have this data. They will often share it too. Hospitals have no vested interest in helping the black sheep practice in town violate a new grad. Hospitals want good surgeons in town even if they are not employed by the hospital.
I would say that your advisors have tunnel vision, and apply their limited localized experience to the entire country. However, you may share that tunnel vision. If you only want to practice in big cities in the Northeast where there's already an oversaturation of surgeons, then you're really limiting your earning potential.Yes, sir. I was just hoping that I could benefit from the experience of others who had done this before. I will definitely check out that book.
Some hospitals have special physician recruiters who would be of much greater help in the situation you describe. If you're going to cold-call facilities, just call their operator and ask to be connected to their physician recruiter(s).So is my best bet to just cold-call a hospital HR department? I apologize because I know this sounds ignorant but I really don't know how to get started.
Philly is close to a number of other cities - I have a few friends who work "over the border" in NJ because of the more favorable malpractice environment, but commute home to Philly environs to home. There are other cities close by as well; Harrisburg for example is 90 mins away and it is possible to practice as a true general surgeon there. So consider, as others have suggested, places close to Philly.I apologize, as I said before I'm not trying to put down other parts of the country. My family is in Philadelphia and so that's one of the reasons I want to work there. It's simply a personal choice and not intended as an insult to people who work or live in other parts of the country. If you took it that way, I'm sorry.
That may be true, but you don't have to accept any job they give you information on do you? Headhunters are simply a means to an end - they may have jobs that you are interested in, they may not. You choose what to do with the jobs they find for you. Only you can decide whether or not the job is right for you. As Dimoak notes, hospitals will have physician recruiters on staff as well.I heard head hunters are not a good option because they just try to put you in any location so they get their commission. That's why I asked. Yes, I can find a head hunter but I wanted to see if there were other ways.
Philly is oversaturated with physicians - subspecialists and academic physicians. It is not oversaturated with general surgeons. Here is a list of general surgeons in Philly (note that some are in academics, some may not be truly general surgeons). Here is another list. Here's a group in Cherry Hill that does a broad based practice. Why not contact some and see what they think the market is like?This is what is confusing to me. I often hear that physicians are fleeing Philadelphia due to malpractice. But I also often hear that the area is oversaturated with physicians. And at the same time I often hear that there is a need for gen surgeons there. But on the other hand people say that you can't be a gen surgeon in a large city due to the sub-specialists who will crowd you out. Everything seems to contradict itself. So I was hoping to also get some opinions on the job market there in general.
What's the downside?just work locum. there was a surgeon at one of the hospitals i rotated at who did that and he said he makes 2K per shift and 3K at another hospital he also locums at. dude works 3-4 days/wk, can take off for vacation whenever he wants cuz none of the patients are "his" as he's not on faculty. no administrative duties, no research duties, no teaching obligations...just a hired gun who operates like a machine/covers the SICU and makes mad money.
i suppose the respect thing, as in you won't be as respected cuz you're not part of the faculty but rather seen as an "outsider" of sorts. for example the other attendings wud often refer to him as "the locum". also cuz he wasn't faculty he got no resident coverage, meaning when he was on his shift he did all his own floor work (dressing changes, blood draws, discharge summaries, other "scut work") that are usually handled by interns/residents for attendings.What's the downside?
Do a web search on the issue of "itinerant surgery". There is a line between locums and what you propose....
i'm not trying to "propose" anything per se. just telling how it works with that particular surgeon i met. seems like a decent gig for somebody starting out after residency or winding down towards retirement. or for somebody who doesn't want to put up with the BS that comes with moving up the hiearchy. no having to do research you don't care about, no having to sit through meetings/committees/conferences you don't want to be at but are obligated to, no having to teach med students/residents if it isn't your thing.
This is called private practice....or for somebody who doesn't want to put up with the BS that comes with moving up the hiearchy. no having to do research you don't care about, no having to sit through meetings/committees/conferences you don't want to be at but are obligated to, no having to teach med students/residents if it isn't your thing.
Depends. If you're the only game in town (ie, a niche practice) then the PCPs have little other options. That doesn't mean you can be an ass as other options may become available and then your SOL. I don't mind showing my referrers some love although I drew the line at the office staff who expected me to bring lunch for the whole office or wouldn't let me talk to the pcp without an appointment.but don't you still have to kiss primary care azz to get referals/consults?
True although there are drawbacks to locum work namely living out of a suitcase, no pets, etc.locums seem not to have to answer to anybody except maybe their locum placement agency.
OK, I guess I was just misreading....i'm not trying to "propose" anything per se...
just work locum. there was a surgeon ...
Not exactly accurate interpretation... you do have some answerability to the practice you cover and/or hospital you work out of.... in addition, you can be very accountable to the payers beyond your agency. There may be some liberties... the accountability can often arise with the unexpected mal-occurence or occasional billing audits, etc.......locums seem not to have to answer to anybody except maybe their locum placement agency.