Is it possible to get into an MSTP program with a 3.0 and research experience?

[mxyplizk]

Just curious...I'd take pretty much any MSTP program that offers tissue engineering. I have a significant amount of research experience, including several publications (on two of which I was the main researcher/author) and I can't help but wonder if that will make up for my awful GPA. I test very well though, and consistently get good scores on MCAT practice tests so I'm not too worried about that. Thanks for any and all advice!

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[bd4727]

Just curious...I'd take pretty much any MSTP program that offers tissue engineering. I have a significant amount of research experience, including several publications (on two of which I was the main researcher/author) and I can't help but wonder if that will make up for my awful GPA. I test very well though, and consistently get good scores on MCAT practice tests so I'm not too worried about that. Thanks for any and all advice!

I don't mean to discourage you, but to be realistic you are going to have a difficult time getting into the top 25-30 programs or so. All those students will have the same stats as you, plus high GPAs. Unless your MCAT is really off the charts, then you are going to need to have another factor to get you into those schools. For instance, working for someone who knows a program director, a first author pub, etc.

If you get a really high MCAT, it is possible to get into a little bit lower tier MSTP or MD/PhD (non MSTP), but you will still be at a disadvantage. You need to do as much as you can to stand out in other regards. Just having a high MCAT isn't going to be enough-- all the other successful applicants will have that too.

Good luck, I think you should go for it but just trying to give you a heads up.

 

[mxyplizk]

Thanks for your reply! I definitely don't want to get my hopes up, and I know I'm not going to be competitive for any of the top programs. Really, I just want to be funded for my studies, because I can't afford MD/PhD otherwise, and will probably just have to take the PhD route, which isn't my ultimate goal. Hence, why I'll attend any MSTP program that wants me. Thanks again!

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

Thanks for your reply! I definitely don't want to get my hopes up, and I know I'm not going to be competitive for any of the top programs. Really, I just want to be funded for my studies, because I can't afford MD/PhD otherwise, and will probably just have to take the PhD route, which isn't my ultimate goal. Hence, why I'll attend any MSTP program that wants me. Thanks again!

Do you need a non-payback provision, or just to be fully funded? I think there a number of non-MSTP programs that fund you fully, but if you drop out after the first year or two you'll likely need to pay it back (which you don't technically have to do for MSTP).

As for your question, unfortunately your GPA is weak. You would need a superstellar MCAT to be competitive even for lower tier MSTPs, i.e. 40+. I had a 3.4/40 and while I got a lot of MSTP interviews in the range of 15-40 schools, I didn't get many interviews from top 10 places.

Is there any way you can boost your GPA with a special masters. This has to be a program where your grades will count into an UG rather than graduate GPA.

 

[mxyplizk]

I only need full funding...I'd totally be into any sort of MD/PhD program. Are there any lower-tier ones that aren't affiliated with NIH? Also, I'm not sure about the master's...I'm only a sophomore so I can't predict the future, but I'm not too eager to spend five years at my undergrad to do the combined bachelor's+master's program. Thanks for your helpful reply!

 

[Ariodant]

You don't need to do the SMP or PB at your undergraduate institution. They differ from the regular masters in that their grades count towards your UG GPA, which is the area you truly need to improve. A 3.0 is too low for most allopathic MD-only programs, and MD/PhDs, NIH funded or not, are usually more selective.

 

[kami333]

SMPs do not count toward your ugrad GPA, they count seperately as grad GPA but adcoms tend to view them different (especially the ones where you are competing directly against current med students). Which makes it useful for people like me who have 200+ ugrad credit hours, where a full load of A's has negligable impact.

A post-bacc, either a formal program or an informal one (just taking ugrad classes after you graduate) will generally count towards your ugrad GPA.

 

[calvinNhobbes]

I imagine you'd have a hard time getting into any medical school, let alone MSTP program with that GPA. If funded MD/PhD is really your goal, I'd apply for a PhD program at the places you want to go and then work your butt off, making as many connections in the med school and MD/PhD program there as possible, and then try applying from grad school. I know people that have done that. If it doesn't work out, then finish your PhD and go on to med school, preferrably your state school so it will be less money.

 

[mam3456]

Personally (and with all due respect), I disagree with the last comment. I dont feel that the right idea is to go into a phd program first and then try to get connections into the med school. I think that's making a huge commitment just to try to network and maybe get them to select you over more qualified applicants. and even if you find a connection you'll have trouble applying into the MD or dualdegree program at that school if you're already in a phd prgram (because they're paying you, so they expect you to stay and finish, not just apply out for something better). if you finish your phd it'll be 5-6 years later and you'll be at a different point in your life and you probably wouldnt wanna do med at that point anyway. or if you do, you'll have to take mcats again and compete against students in ugrad or right out.

I recommend going into a master's program. the only thing you can do to enhance your academic record is to record higher grades in a more advanced program. You CANNOT change your undergrad, obviously, but don't let that discourage you. I know a few people that got their master's, did reasonably well on the MCAT (34+) and matriculated into MD/PhD programs because it behooves any school to interview candidates that will enter, do well, and finish, and you'll be surprised how many schools will respond positively to that. I think that md/phd programs are more personal than md programs anyway - just trying calling both admissions offices and you'll get a different attitude most times.

 

[reine1jb]

I only need full funding...I'd totally be into any sort of MD/PhD program. Are there any lower-tier ones that aren't affiliated with NIH? Also, I'm not sure about the master's...I'm only a sophomore so I can't predict the future, but I'm not too eager to spend five years at my undergrad to do the combined bachelor's+master's program. Thanks for your helpful reply!

if you're just starting your sophomore year then you still have a decent amount of time to bring up your gpa. I'd say there are a fair number of undergrads who struggle a little bit their freshman year of college for various reasons. But if you can show a strong upward trend in gpa, then I think you'll be ok by the time you would start applying. Granted the courses just keep getting harder but don't get too far ahead of yourself...as others have said, it would be hard to get in with a 3.0 but then again you're not applying for awhile, just work hard to bring that gpa up over the next year and a half or so..

 

[calvinNhobbes]

I dont feel that the right idea is to go into a phd program first and then try to get connections into the med school.

the goal is not to make connections for just med scool, but for an md/phd program

I think that's making a huge commitment just to try to network and maybe get them to select you over more qualified applicants. and even if you find a connection you'll have trouble applying into the MD or dualdegree program at that school if you're already in a phd prgram (because they're paying you, so they expect you to stay and finish, not just apply out for something better).

you do not stop the phd, you finish and then do the md. there are a couple people in my mstp program that did that. i also know someone who quit their current phd and joined the mstp program as an m1, so it works either way.

if you finish your phd it'll be 5-6 years later and you'll be at a different point in your life and you probably wouldnt wanna do med at that point anyway.

so why would you be applying to a 7-10 md/phd program to start with if you didn't want the time commitment or want to be a physician?

or if you do, you'll have to take mcats again and compete against students in ugrad or right out.

You'll have to do that no matter when you apply

I recommend going into a master's program.

So you waste two years and are no closer to having an md/phd? i know MANY lab techs from when i was a grad student that tried this route. NONE of them got into med school. They are now doing their Phds instead.

the only thing you can do to enhance your academic record is to record higher grades in a more advanced program.

A masters won't help. Too few classes with inflated grades.

I know a few people that got their master's, did reasonably well on the MCAT (34+) and matriculated into MD/PhD programs because it behooves any school to interview candidates that will enter, do well, and finish, and you'll be surprised how many schools will respond positively to that.

And I bet it was the personal contacts that got them in, not the masters.

I think that md/phd programs are more personal than md programs anyway - just trying calling both admissions offices and you'll get a different attitude most times.

Exactly, contacts. You'll make mroe of them if you spend more time doing a PhD, a degree you suposedly want anyway instead of wasting time with a masters.

 

[Neuronix]

the goal is not to make connections for just med scool, but for an md/phd program

Switching in is highly rare. Some MD/PhD programs forbid PhD switchins entirely. It is very rare in general.

But besides that, it is a big gamble. Once one starts a PhD program, they are expected to finish, both by their PhD program and by future MD programs. So, to try this you better be very content with the fallback option of not getting into the local MD/PhD program. Successfully applying to other MD/PhD programs from a PhD program is again almost unheard of and extremely difficult.

As for the op's question, raise the GPA! Is it possible to get in with a 3.0 GPA? Sure. It's possible if you try hard enough you'll become an astronaut and go to the moon too. I'd say they have similar likelihoods. Schools are still going to expect you to meet their minimum requirements for their medical students no matter what. An average medical school matriculant has a 3.5 GPA. I mean maybe with a 40 MCAT, but even a 3.0/40 will have a very difficult time getting in to medical school and is borderline for MD only.

 

[thejonesdoctor]

I had a comment/question regarding that last post. I am currently in a PhD chemistry program at Northwestern (1st year) but am applying to a few MD/PhD programs this year as well. Obviously, this has been difficult so far. But I realized that I should be able to leave my school this year with a master's (as opposed to leaving with nothing to show for it) if I transfer to a different MD/PhD program. It sounds a lot better to say that I plan on leaving with a master's rather than saying that I'm in a PhD prorgram and want to transfer.

I was wondering if anyone thinks that this may partially explain why there seems to be a lack of people going from PhD to MD/PhD programs.

 

[QofQuimica]

I had a comment/question regarding that last post. I am currently in a PhD chemistry program at Northwestern (1st year) but am applying to a few MD/PhD programs this year as well. Obviously, this has been difficult so far. But I realized that I should be able to leave my school this year with a master's (as opposed to leaving with nothing to show for it) if I transfer to a different MD/PhD program. It sounds a lot better to say that I plan on leaving with a master's rather than saying that I'm in a PhD prorgram and want to transfer.

I was wondering if anyone thinks that this may partially explain why there seems to be a lack of people going from PhD to MD/PhD programs.

I think the main reason is that programs allowing people to transfer from PhD-to-MD/PhD run the risk of having these students finish two years of med school for free and then drop their PhD. Considering that even a significant minority of MD/PhD students who get into MD/PhD programs the normal way drop their PhDs, it's an understandable concern.

You're only a first year grad student, so can I assume that you're doing a non-research MS? If so, you can ignore the rest of this paragraph. If not....It's a relevant distinction, because BSing the MD/PhD programs with this line of "I'm an MS student" while you're in a PhD program is not necessarily going to be as easy as you may think, if you're planning on getting a research MS. Leaving a PhD program early can sometimes cause a lot of bruised feelings, especially if your PI has been paying your stipend and tuition for two years with the expectation that you'll be staying. Considering that you will for sure have to get him/her to write you a LOR for med school, and that most PIs are looking out for their own interests just as you're looking out for yours, you can't afford to alienate this person. Think very carefully before springing a surprise like this on your PI. In research, the golden rule is that s/he who has the gold, makes the rules.

OP, you are just starting your sophomore year, and you already have some pubs. Clearly, you are bright and very industrious when you want to be. It's time for you to turn some of that good work ethic toward doing well in your classes. Two solid years of 3.8+ GPA before you apply to med school will do a lot to help mitigate that not-so-hot freshman year. Best of luck.

 

[thejonesdoctor]

QofQuimica,

Thanks for your reply. I will be starting research in my program next month, but a lot of time this year will be taken up by classes and teaching. Surprisingly, the PI with whom I am going to start research seems fine with me leaving to take MD classes for 2 years. He says that they expect some rate of attrition...I guess he's just happy because he has more grant money this year.

In general, I don't see how my PI in grad school would be able to write me a letter. I have not started research yet, but have already submitted my 2010 application. Am I missing something here?

I was planning on being honest and telling the schools that I am in a PhD program, but when I talked to a current MSTP student back in March and realized that you can get a PhD in chem. as part of an MD/PhD program, I felt that that would be a better fit for me. I think it's cool that MSTP programs are so diverse in terms of what you can study.

That's the jist of what I was going to tell them. I guess it will be interesting to see whether they reject me on the spot and say "finish your PhD first, then look us up" or if they think I have valid reasons for applying this year. If anyone has other advice on how to handle my sticky situation, I would appreciate it.

 

[QofQuimica]

QofQuimica,

Thanks for your reply. I will be starting research in my program next month, but a lot of time this year will be taken up by classes and teaching. Surprisingly, the PI with whom I am going to start research seems fine with me leaving to take MD classes for 2 years. He says that they expect some rate of attrition...I guess he's just happy because he has more grant money this year.

In general, I don't see how my PI in grad school would be able to write me a letter. I have not started research yet, but have already submitted my 2010 application. Am I missing something here?

I was planning on being honest and telling the schools that I am in a PhD program, but when I talked to a current MSTP student back in March and realized that you can get a PhD in chem. as part of an MD/PhD program, I felt that that would be a better fit for me. I think it's cool that MSTP programs are so diverse in terms of what you can study.

That's the jist of what I was going to tell them. I guess it will be interesting to see whether they reject me on the spot and say "finish your PhD first, then look us up" or if they think I have valid reasons for applying this year. If anyone has other advice on how to handle my sticky situation, I would appreciate it.

Ok, clearly I don't understand the logistics of your plan, so please tell me where I'm going wrong. You are a first year grad student, in a PhD program. You are applying to MD/PhD programs this year to start med school this summer. You have so far done no research. You will start research in December, giving you all of 6-8 months research time by the time you matriculate into med school, assuming you're accepted. How on earth do you expect to finish a research MS in 6-8 months working part-time in between teaching and whatever classes you're taking? Or is the whole point of this that you're trying to transfer into the MSTP at Northwestern or some other Chicago school, and you will then continue on with the same PI for the PhD part? But in that case, what is the advantage of lying to the MD/PhD programs about being in an MS program that you clearly can't finish before you would matriculate anyway? I guess what I'm trying to ask is, why would you expect that transferring into an MD/PhD program from an MS program would be any better received than transferring in from a PhD program? You still would be leaving your previous grad degree incomplete, and *that* is one of the major obstacles to transferring from grad school to MD/PhD.

 

[thejonesdoctor]

It is confusing, I know. Apparently, it is possible to finish the program with a master's if I leave in June. I know this seems like a relatively fast way to get a master's, and I don't know why this is so, but that's how it is. So I wouldn't be transfering from an incomplete master's degree to MD/PhD, I would be leaving my PhD program with a master's before matriculating to an MD/PhD program. I originally wanted to transfer from my PhD into the same school's MD/PhD and work for the same PI, as you said. When I realized I can't "transfer" but have to go through the same process as everyone else, I decided to apply to a few additional schools anyway, to see what they say.

I have done 16 months part time research while in undergrad, and 6 months (2 summers) full time research in the pharmaceutical industry, 36 MCAT, 3.95 GPA. I wish I would have known to apply to MSTP last year, then my life would be a lot less hectic

 

[QofQuimica]

It is confusing, I know. Apparently, it is possible to finish the program with a master's if I leave in June. I know this seems like a relatively fast way to get a master's, and I don't know why this is so, but that's how it is. So I wouldn't be transfering from an incomplete master's degree to MD/PhD, I would be leaving my PhD program with a master's before matriculating to an MD/PhD program. I originally wanted to transfer from my PhD into the same school's MD/PhD and work for the same PI, as you said. When I realized I can't "transfer" but have to go through the same process as everyone else, I decided to apply to a few additional schools anyway, to see what they say.

I have done 16 months part time research while in undergrad, and 6 months (2 summers) full time research in the pharmaceutical industry, 36 MCAT, 3.95 GPA. I wish I would have known to apply to MSTP last year, then my life would be a lot less hectic

Wow. That's a fast MS. I did my grad work in chemistry also, and I wish I had known before I started grad school that I could get a research MS in one year at Northwestern.

All kidding aside, if you can pull it off, more power to you, my friend. I don't think it's unreasonable to think you can do it. You'll be done with your MS, so you won't have the transferring in problem, and your credentials certainly seem competitive for MD/PhD. Best of luck.

 

[thejonesdoctor]

Maybe it's considered a half-research MS? I'm not sure.

I seem to recall having read somewhere that you were in pchem: did you end up continuing pchem-related work for your PhD? I'm more of an organic person, but I like pchem too.

Thanks for the support! Now back to reading more about 2D-NMR than I will ever want to know...

 

[QofQuimica]

Maybe it's considered a half-research MS? I'm not sure.

I seem to recall having read somewhere that you were in pchem: did you end up continuing pchem-related work for your PhD? I'm more of an organic person, but I like pchem too.

Thanks for the support! Now back to reading more about 2D-NMR than I will ever want to know...

Nope. I did my MS in med chem and my PhD in pharmaceutical chem, both organic chem offshoots.