Is It Really Harder To Get Into Vet School Than Med School?

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nhsvs

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We've all heard it. Certainly you can make the case for it -- try getting into Colorado State as an at-large applicant, for example. Almost impossible. But overall, is it true? Or is it a function of the fact that there are only 28 vet schools and more than 160 med schools? In other words, overall, is the vet school applicant pool more academically qualified and competitive than the med school applicant pool?

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Many people have crunched the numbers and found that it is not true that it is harder to get into vet school than med school. If I recall correctly the actual stats with percentages were pretty similar. There are far more med schools, and they also have the DO option as well - but there are also far more applicants.
 
We've all heard it. Certainly you can make the case for it -- try getting into Colorado State as an at-large applicant, for example. Almost impossible. But overall, is it true? Or is it a function of the fact that there are only 28 vet schools and more than 160 med schools? In other words, overall, is the vet school applicant pool more academically qualified and competitive than the med school applicant pool?


I think that vet students have a lot more experience within their field going into school than med students do. Academically it is probably about the same. If you are interested do a search for successful applicants 2011 and 2012 that should give you an idea of the range of grades and experience that people have.

Back to bugs now...
 
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Actually, I did take a quick look. The 2005 numbers indicate that the overall acceptance rate to U.S. medical schools was approximately 40%; for U.S. vet schools, approximately 33%. Mean cumulative GPAs, science GPAs and standardized test percentiles do seem to be about the same, however. In other words, DVMs seem to be about as bright as their MD counterparts. This leads me to believe that the lower overall acceptance rate for vet students is likely a function of fewer veterinary schools and the difficulty that at-large applicants have in the admissions process generally.
 
Actually, I did take a quick look. The 2005 numbers indicate that the overall acceptance rate to U.S. medical schools was approximately 40%; for U.S. vet schools, approximately 33%. Mean cumulative GPAs, science GPAs and standardized test percentiles do seem to be about the same, however. In other words, DVMs seem to be about as bright as their MD counterparts. This leads me to believe that the lower overall acceptance rate for vet students is likely a function of fewer veterinary schools and the difficulty that at-large applicants have in the admissions process generally.

also, vet students and med students aren't taking the same courses. this could just be me, but i know many more med students in non-science majors than vet students; and it while it could just be the places that people i know are applying to, they have fewer requirements. for example, how often does someone get into vet school without experience? as far as academic requirements are concerned, if vet students do have more requirements on average, and you assume those requirements to likely be in the sciences, we are juggling more of the "harder" classes and often with more extracurriculars.

i haven't met a med student that didn't think that vet students were insane. might just be my part of the country though ^_^
 
also, vet students and med students aren't taking the same courses. this could just be me, but i know many more med students in non-science majors than vet students; and it while it could just be the places that people i know are applying to, they have fewer requirements. for example, how often does someone get into vet school without experience? as far as academic requirements are concerned, if vet students do have more requirements on average, and you assume those requirements to likely be in the sciences, we are juggling more of the "harder" classes and often with more extracurriculars.

i haven't met a med student that didn't think that vet students were insane. might just be my part of the country though ^_^

Well, if you have to take more prerequisite coursework, endure a more competitive admissions process, take out huge students loans, work just as hard as a medical student when you get to vet school, and then earn far less than an MD as a DVM, that is kind of insane, isn't it? :D
 
Actually, I did take a quick look. The 2005 numbers indicate that the overall acceptance rate to U.S. medical schools was approximately 40%; for U.S. vet schools, approximately 33%.

Where'd you get this information? I was under the impression that the rate for vet schools was quite a bit higher than 33%.
 
Well, if you have to take more prerequisite coursework, endure a more competitive admissions process, take out huge students loans, work just as hard as a medical student when you get to vet school, and then earn far less than an MD as a DVM, that is kind of insane, isn't it? :D



Haha... I always jokingly tell my mom that I wish I liked people more so I could go to med school. But alas, vet med is in my blood. lol

And think... how often does an MD get told that they can't do the treatment that they are perfectly capable of providing simply because the person cannot afford it? (I know, I know, there are plenty of people out there without health insurance and such that can't pay for routine medical care. But in general, I think it would be safe to say that the "I can't afford that" argument tends to appear much more in vet med.)

On the other hand, you have malpractice suits. Which occur in vet med of course, but I have a sneaking suspicion they are FAR more frequent in human med.


Anyway, sorry to get off track there.... lol
 
While GPAs may be similar and vets certainly have more experience - the MCAT is a much much harder standardized test. I have a feeling that some that apply for vet school and struggle with the GRE would not be able to get an adequate score on the MCAT to get in.

Is it easier (percent wise) to get into any med school than vet school? Probably. When you compare though that what school you go to in Med may matter for internships/residencies that makes competition for individual/desirable schools more competitive.
 
also, vet students and med students aren't taking the same courses. this could just be me, but i know many more med students in non-science majors than vet students; and it while it could just be the places that people i know are applying to, they have fewer requirements. for example, how often does someone get into vet school without experience? as far as academic requirements are concerned, if vet students do have more requirements on average, and you assume those requirements to likely be in the sciences, we are juggling more of the "harder" classes and often with more extracurriculars.

i haven't met a med student that didn't think that vet students were insane. might just be my part of the country though ^_^

I've had pre-meds thru most of my core pre-reqs, they suffer right along with us. I'm just grateful we don't have to take the MCAT's.

In CO they think pre-vets are a little 'crazy' too, but I prefer to think of us as a little more 'intense' than the average student. :p
 
Where'd you get this information? I was under the impression that the rate for vet schools was quite a bit higher than 33%.

I got the vet school admission statistics from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) report on veterinarians. Couldn't find them anywhere else in summary format, including the AAVMC website! The medical school statistics come directly from the AAMC website. I should also point out that in some years, the overall acceptance rate for MD programs has been as high as 50%. Not sure about this, but I am also under the impression that the number of applicants to vet schools is increasing. I was also able to find the academic statistics for the DVM graduating class of 2011 at each vet school in summary format: http://www.aavmc.org/students_admissions/documents/Table36WEB.pdf

This indicates that the mean undergraduate gpa for all admitted students in this class is 3.57.
 
I know for Texas A&M CVM, they had 300+ applications last year for their 131-ish seats. The breakdown was also something like 110 females to 21 males. :p

As far as the courses being different, I only noticed that whereas with pre-Med I could choose between microbiology and genetics, pre-vet requires both. Other than that, I just need to take some additional "animal" courses (Animal Nutrition, General Animal Science), which I should be able to knock out in a semester, right?

Am I the only one that's trying for both pre-Med and pre-Vet? I'd be happy doing either, but I figured I'd complete the pre-Vet requirements while waiting to hear back from Med Schools...
 
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^ Statistics for Kansas State CVM for the class of 2012:

1,107 applicants, 232 accepted, admitted class size 108.
 
The breakdown for individual schools isn't really useful in determining the percentage of overall applicants accepted, because many people apply to more than one school. More useful would be the number of students in the entering classes across all schools divided by the number of applicants. The latest data on the AAVMC website from the class of 2011 cycle indicates that there were about 5700 applicants that year through VMCAS. With 28 vet schools in the US (I know not all of them use VMCAS, but even if we add 100 or so applicants who only applied to the schools that don't use VMCAS), the # of seats is definitely more than the 1900 that would be 33%.
 
I got the vet school admission statistics from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) report on veterinarians. Couldn't find them anywhere else in summary format, including the AAVMC website! The medical school statistics come directly from the AAMC website. I should also point out that in some years, the overall acceptance rate for MD programs has been as high as 50%. Not sure about this, but I am also under the impression that the number of applicants to vet schools is increasing. I was also able to find the academic statistics for the DVM graduating class of 2011 at each vet school in summary format: http://www.aavmc.org/students_admissions/documents/Table36WEB.pdf

This indicates that the mean undergraduate gpa for all admitted students in this class is 3.57.

there's better information than that available and more recent...

mean acceptance rates for vet school and med school are essentially comparable. last year's nationwide acceptance rate for vet school was 46% (http://www.psu.edu/dus/anvet.htm). nationwide average for med school ranges from 45%-52%, last year having a 45% acceptance rate (http://career.berkeley.edu/MedStats/national.stm).

i trust the info that two well-known colleges are providing is accurate.
 
there's better information than that available and more recent...

mean acceptance rates for vet school and med school are essentially comparable. last year's nationwide acceptance rate for vet school was 46% (http://www.psu.edu/dus/anvet.htm). nationwide average for med school ranges from 45%-52%, last year having a 45% acceptance rate (http://career.berkeley.edu/MedStats/national.stm).

i trust the info that two well-known colleges are providing is accurate.

While this is helpful, the information on the nationwide acceptance rate for vet school is not entirely accurate because the 5,740 number of applicants cited does NOT account for those individuals who did not apply through VMCAS. As of April, 2007, Tufts University (750 applicants), Texas A&M University (387 applicants) and Tuskegee University (number of applicants not published, but let's say 500) do not use VMCAS at all. Additionally, the University fo Missouri and Oklahoma State University partially participate in that they only require non-residents to use VMCAS (leaving a combined total of 265 resident applicants who don't use VMCAS), and Washington State University partially participates in that it does not require anyone to use VMCAS (another 949 applicants). That's 2,851 potential applicants not accounted for in the statistics. Add to that high school seniors/college freshman accepted to the guaranteed early admissions programs at Purdue, Kansas State, Mississippi State and Tufts -- who also don't use VMCAS -- and you're likely over 2,900. Let's say that you cut this down to 2,000 non-VMCAS applicants to be conservative. 2,650 seats/7,740 applicants (5,740 VMCAS/2,000 non-VMCAS) gives you an overall acceptance rate of 34% -- darn close to the figure that I cited previously.
 
My mom read an article somewhere about how they are making it easier to get into med school in Canada because of the shortage of doctors. She joked around about me changing what I want to do. Naw. I'd choose animals over people any day.
 
While this is helpful, the information on the nationwide acceptance rate for vet school is not entirely accurate because the 5,740 number of applicants cited does NOT account for those individuals who did not apply through VMCAS. As of April, 2007, Tufts University (750 applicants), Texas A&M University (387 applicants) and Tuskegee University (number of applicants not published, but let's say 500) do not use VMCAS at all.

But you only have to add in the people who did not apply to any other schools than those ones that don't use VMCAS. People who used VMCAS to apply to other schools and applied to those schools that don't use VMCAS are being double counted in your estimate. I stand by PSU's numbers, as they are the numbers I've heard multiple times, closer to the 45-50% range.
 
That's why I knocked 900 off my estimate, but I still see your point. Still, that doesn't explain why the federal government puts its estimate of the overall vet school admissions rate at 33% as of 2008.

"There is keen competition for admission to veterinary school. The number of accredited veterinary colleges has remained largely the same since 1983, but the number of applicants has risen significantly. Only about 1 in 3 applicants was accepted in 2005."

Source: U.S. Department of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics, Occupational Outlook Handbook, 2008-2009 edition
 
That's why I knocked 900 off my estimate, but I still see your point. Still, that doesn't explain why the federal government puts its estimate of the overall vet school admissions rate at 33% as of 2008.

"There is keen competition for admission to veterinary school. The number of accredited veterinary colleges has remained largely the same since 1983, but the number of applicants has risen significantly. Only about 1 in 3 applicants was accepted in 2005."

Source: U.S. Department of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics, Occupational Outlook Handbook, 2008-2009 edition

Because we all know the federal government is always right. :p;)

It seems to me you can tweak the stats to make them say whatever you want, judging by the discussion on this thread.
 
i do just also want to point out that while although it is the 2008-2009 handbook, the actual statistics are from 2005...not sure if there would really be that much of a change in 2 years, but the data isn't actually from 2008.
 
I notice when I meet people they'll try to politely compliment me by saying ohhhh you're in vet school?? thats WAY harder than med school!
And I gently disagree with them by saying that:
a. Dude, I would probably manage to score a negative value on the MCAT ;P
b. Even though the acceptance statistics are slightly lower for vet school, its just different. Med students have to have higher GPA's and MCAT scores - which is no joke, while vet students have to have more extracurricular experiences.

And the acceptance statistics can be explained by comparing applicants to seats available.

The shortage of seats and subsequent sky high % of rejections is nearing a crisis. Texas A&M is building a new vet school (& med school) to increase capacity, but it won't be ready for a few years. Most veterinary & medical schools haven't increased their capacity since the 80's, because they predicted a surplus of doctors in the millennium. They obviously used an abacus. ;)

There are more lawyers in DC than veterinarians in this country, with 90,000 vets total in USA, 2,600 graduating each year, 1,000 retiring each year. 1600 net gain each year. The pressing need is in food animal medicine, laboratory animal medicine, public health and biomedical research.

Aaaand according to the AMA publication Physician Characteristics and
Distribution in the U.S. - 2004 Edition there are 853,187
physicians in the United States, 130 medical schools, & roughly 25,000 graduates each year, with 20,000 retiring each year.

Jeebus.

DVMs only have a 1600 supply to fill the gap and on top of that, vets are less efficient than MDs. 1 primary care physician sees what, 30-40 patients a day? Private practice small animal vets only see about 10 a day.

In short, I will have no problemo finding a job after graduation - and if I want to practice large animal medicine in a rural setting for a few years afterwards I get my tuition paid, now thats saying something about demand.
 
Both types of professional school are damn hard to get into. That's my opinion! Might as well add dental school as well. Same pre-reqs, all difficult. I don't really see a point in comparing since each field is so different overall.
 
"There are more lawyers in DC than veterinarians in this country, with 90,000 vets total in USA, 2,600 graduating each year, 1,000 retiring each year."

infinivet, you totally had AVMA guy come and lecture recently didn't you?
 
Actually, no, I'm just really involved in my school with getting pre-vets through the admissions process and the 90,000 is a figure that gets brought up a lot when I'm on my soapbox.
The other stuff I looked up on the internet, but I'm familiar with it cuz my husband is applying to medical school at the moment, and its interview time :)
 
Private practice small animal vets only see about 10 a day.

Oh my goodness. At the day practice where I worked, the vet there would routinely see 30-50 patients a day. How in the the world would you make money if you only saw 10 patients a day?
 
How does a sm animal private practice see 30-40 animals day?

9-5, with 1 hr lunch break, 30mins/client, average 1 pet per client ~ 14 patients if there are zero surgeries that day, and its totally solid booked all day long.

Take out 2 hours in the morning for surgeries: lose 4 client spots = 10/day.

This is per veterinarian...your practice had several vets practicing, ya?
 
How does a sm animal private practice see 30-40 animals day?

9-5, with 1 hr lunch break, 30mins/client, average 1 pet per client ~ 14 patients if there are zero surgeries that day, and its totally solid booked all day long.

Take out 2 hours in the morning for surgeries: lose 4 client spots = 10/day.

This is per veterinarian...your practice had several vets practicing, ya?

Lunch break? What's that? :rolleyes:

I guess the place I worked was not the gold standard of how a practice should be run (which is why I don't work there anymore). We didn't get lunch breaks. Ever. There was no time blocked off for surgeries. We had two vets: one would be juggling three appointments at a time all day long, while the other vet could knock out 15 spays/neuters by noon and then join in on appointments. The techs did about 5 dentals a day. Plus we were open from 8 - 6. We were always rushed and tired and none of our patients ever got as much time/ care as they deserved, which bothered me immensely. For some reason the clinic was still wildly popular.

It's nice to know there are practices out there where quality medicine is valued over money. I work at an emergency clinic now, so I still really have no idea how a day practice should be run.
 
How does a sm animal private practice see 30-40 animals day?

9-5, with 1 hr lunch break, 30mins/client, average 1 pet per client ~ 14 patients if there are zero surgeries that day, and its totally solid booked all day long.

30 minutes per client?? Were I am we only book a half hour if its a specialty repro case or an ortho exam requiring sedation. Everything else is every 15 minutes.

So I would say 20+ is pretty normal in a day. Not even considering pet stores or breeders that will bring in multiple animals.

The norm is 3 docs working at a time with 5 techs. Then 3 receptionists up front to keep things moving in and out of rooms.
 
We probably only see 10 patients a day, TOPS, including surgeries.

One vet, one tech.

However, I recognize something like 70% of our clients...

All sorts of clinics and situations, with good and bad things about each.
 
30 minutes per client?? Were I am we only book a half hour if its a specialty repro case or an ortho exam requiring sedation. Everything else is every 15 minutes.

So I would say 20+ is pretty normal in a day. Not even considering pet stores or breeders that will bring in multiple animals.

The norm is 3 docs working at a time with 5 techs. Then 3 receptionists up front to keep things moving in and out of rooms.

Same with my hospital, 15 minute appointments. Only have three techs with three doctors though. It can get pretty crazy.

Not sure if this is common or not, but we're open from 8:30 am to 8:30 pm on weekdays for appointments.
 
Everyone has to be at the clinic at 7am where i work....it's BRUTAL! But we cater to a lot of farmers, so those hours probably seem pretty normal.

On his first day of work we had a vet show up late at 8am. He was totally horrified that he had to start each day at 7. Somehow it never came up during his interviews. Whoops!

This is all good stuff to ask about when we're applying for jobs someday:laugh:
 
The first place I worked ran like a machine. There were 3 doctors on at a time and about 6 techs and 1 office manager. (Also, 3 to 4 employees in the kennel and a groomer.) Appointments ran 20 minutes for 1 animal and 30 minutes for more than 1. We opened at 7:30 and closed at 5:30 most days but ran late one day a week (til 8). Appointments were from 8-11 and 1:30-close. We'd generally do 3-4 surgeries a day, less if they had a complicated one. We'd also have about 4 dentals, more if it was dental month.

The second place I worked was a 1 doctor practice. Appointments were 30 minutes and we didn't have a late day. There was no kennel. There'd be a receptionist/office manager and one tech through the day and then a high schooler would come in after school several days a week to help with afternoon appointments. The techs didn't do as much at the second practice and it didn't seem to run as smoothly.
 
All I know is that my classmates and I work millions times harder than our med student counterparts. But they do have to work with people... rectals anyone???
 
I often wonder the same thing or if people I talk to are simply trying to be nice. Although I do agree that Pre-Med and Pre-Vet students work just as hard academically, the MCAT is a MUCH harder entry test to take than the GRE. Coming from someone dating a Pre-Med student, we are blessed to not have to deal with that horror of a test!!

However, I feel like Pre-Vet students in "my neck of the woods" get a bad wrap from Pre-Med students simply because we don't have to take the MCAT and because we work with animals rather than people. I have contemplated switching to Pre-Med and it has been a very difficult decision for me. Guess I'm just wondering if anyone else is dealing with these things too?!:confused:
 
It is true where I live. There are 5 vet schools in all of Canada (one of which only teaches in French, so technically 4 for all non-French speakers) while there are almost 20 med schools. So competition for Canadian vet schools amongst Canadian applicants is very tough.

Plus, OVC requires Canadian applicants to take the MCAT :(. I would do anything to be able to write a GRE and not take the MCAT..
 
How does a sm animal private practice see 30-40 animals day?

9-5, with 1 hr lunch break, 30mins/client, average 1 pet per client ~ 14 patients if there are zero surgeries that day, and its totally solid booked all day long.

Take out 2 hours in the morning for surgeries: lose 4 client spots = 10/day.

This is per veterinarian...your practice had several vets practicing, ya?

Lunch break:laugh:30 minutes per client:rofl:
 
Lunch break? What's that? :rolleyes:

I guess the place I worked was not the gold standard of how a practice should be run (which is why I don't work there anymore). We didn't get lunch breaks. Ever. There was no time blocked off for surgeries. We had two vets: one would be juggling three appointments at a time all day long, while the other vet could knock out 15 spays/neuters by noon and then join in on appointments. The techs did about 5 dentals a day. Plus we were open from 8 - 6. We were always rushed and tired and none of our patients ever got as much time/ care as they deserved, which bothered me immensely. For some reason the clinic was still wildly popular.

It's nice to know there are practices out there where quality medicine is valued over money. I work at an emergency clinic now, so I still really have no idea how a day practice should be run.

This was just like the clinic I worked at, except we had three vets working there. Since I left, there are now four vets. So it got pretty damn hectic, and we saw way way way more than 10 patients per day.
 
If there are so few people applying to those 5 vet schools in Canada, it could be easier than the 20 medical schools. For example, lets say that there are hypothetically 500 slots in the Canadian vet schools and 1000 people apply. That's a 50% acceptance rate.

Conversely, the 20 Canadian med schools have 2000 slots and only 3000 people apply. That acceptance rate is then 66.6%. All else (MCAT/GPA) being equal, vet school in this hypothetical situation is easier to apply to.

Um, actually, with the numbers you gave, the med schools (66.6% acceptance) are easier to get into than vet schools (50% acceptance). :laugh:

(I know what your point is but you used the wrong numbers to illustrate it)
 
The numbers depend on the school. I know less people apply to vet school overall, but the popular schools get a TON of apps and the percentage acceptance is TINYY. (dont feel like pulling out my vmsar).

Also, lets not forget that pre-meds have an easy second option, DO. I've looked at the stats to get into DO schools and lets be honest, even with a low GPA and horrid MCAT score you can still get in.

Next, our experiences to apply to vet school are different than med. My pre-med friends just work at a hospital for experience whereas I got experience in about 5 diff fields.

And then there is the MCAT vs. GRE. Yes, i would agree that MCAT is harder, but i know I would do better on the MCAT because i can show off my strengths in science. So this kind of depends on the person.

Finally, how many friends do I know who have been rejected from med school? Maybe 2. How many from vet schools? at least 8. And this isn't because i'm only surrounded by pre-vets, i was a bio major in college so I actually knew more pre-meds

ps-this thread is super old lol did anyone else read the old posts? i was lazy so i hope i didnt just repeat everything!
 
I'd also like to introduce the experience aspect.

I occassionally peruse the pre-med forums. Pre-meds need, at a MAXIMUM, around 150 hours of clinical experience (shadowing, hospital volunteering, etc.). Most people don't have any and they still get into medical school. Compare that with pre-vets who not only need a LOT of veterinary experience, it needs to be in a bunch of different areas (equine, LA, SA, lab, zoo). You'd be hard-pressed to find a veterinary student who got into school with NO clinical experience (not saying it doesn't happen, but it's rare and those people usually have something else outstanding about them).

Oh good call TT. I didn't realize this was an old thread ;) Way to beat a dead horse on my part!
 
I'd also like to introduce the experience aspect.

I occassionally peruse the pre-med forums. Pre-meds need, at a MAXIMUM, around 150 hours of clinical experience (shadowing, hospital volunteering, etc.). Most people don't have any and they still get into medical school. Compare that with pre-vets who not only need a LOT of veterinary experience, it needs to be in a bunch of different areas (equine, LA, SA, lab, zoo). You'd be hard-pressed to find a veterinary student who got into school with NO clinical experience (not saying it doesn't happen, but it's rare and those people usually have something else outstanding about them).

Oh good call TT. I didn't realize this was an old thread ;) Way to beat a dead horse on my part!

From browsing the stats of accepted students (on here for the vet schools), there are some that get accepted with like 100-200, maybe 300 hours of experience. But often they've got like 3.9+ GPA, 1600 GRE, etc, to supplement for not having that experience. Plus I would bet they have a kick-arse PS, too, since they managed to adequately answer the "why vet med" question as deemed worthy by adcoms.
 
I didn't realize I had answered an old thread, so I was probably repeating things that had already been said. You had pointed that out (probably while I was posting), so I had just wanted to acknowledge your acknowledgement. I probably just confused you more ;)
 
I didn't realize I had answered an old thread, so I was probably repeating things that had already been said. You had pointed that out (probably while I was posting), so I had just wanted to acknowledge your acknowledgement. I probably just confused you more ;)

I think it was Blackat33 that pointed it out...I think that is why TT is confused
 
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