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Former Corpsman

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I was wondering about this because I have been doing a lot of research on this subject and have yet to see anything on where a D.O. has gotten into a allopathic ENT residency. I hope some of you could give me some insight.
 

AwesomO

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Yes it is tough. Theres a lot of fluff talk you'll hear but the simple truth is its tough.
 

DrMidlife

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The oto programs that are longer than 5 years are less popular (Iowa, Cleveland Clinic, Vermont, UWash). In your shoes I'd systematically go through all 103 programs and look for DOs on their resident lists.

There's a DO on faculty at UWash, but he did military residency.
 
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MJB

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Based strictly on the Board Score data, it's tough for ANYONE...so that just means it's going to be very tough for a DO trying to match into Allopathic ENT.
 

docjagermeister

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A buddy of mine snagged an ENT residency at a mid-tier allopathic site. I don't remember his exact stats off hand, but know he did well on the boards with decent clinical grades and letter, and no research publications.
 

Lamborghini1315

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I was wondering about this because I have been doing a lot of research on this subject and have yet to see anything on where a D.O. has gotten into a allopathic ENT residency. I hope some of you could give me some insight.

If someone said you can't do it..what would you think? Hmm maybe i can..if someone says i will bet my money you can't..now you might think wow this guy has some audacity, just remember this the more opposition you face and the more you get crossed off the more you must do to turn the non-believers to believe in you. So do more..more work than your peers, be more dedicated and i won't be surprised if you crack a decent program. Its a long way up climb one step at a time.
 

group_theory

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In addition to the bias (against DOs) and competitive nature of ENT, there is another reason why there are few DOs in super-competitive ACGME residencies - the AOA Match and the NRMP match are not held at the same time

For orthopedic surgery, neurosurgery, and to some extent general surgery, most people's goal is to get into the field since it is a very competitive atmosphere. To land an ACGME spot means choosing to skip the AOA Match and going with the NRMP Match (1 month later). It takes a lot of guts to have someone with impressive stats willingly choose to skip an AOA Match (and the chance to match into ortho or NSG or Surg) to take your chances with the NRMP.

And if you don't match AOA, what are the chances that you have the numbers, LORs, impressive background to match into a super-competitive ACGME spot?
 

beastmaster

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And if you don't match AOA, what are the chances that you have the numbers, LORs, impressive background to match into a super-competitive ACGME spot?

Funny story, the last 2 DOs I asked (both happened to be ortho) -- so why did you choose to skip the AOA match? Both said they applied but didn't match DO, and somehow lucked out on MD spots. But generally speaking that's correct.

With DO ENT another issue is location. Half the programs are in MI. I thought long and hard about applying only to MD programs along with general surgery just in case. But I realized that I like the field too much. I rather do it in a less desireable location than do general surgery. Hence I scheduled several DO ent rotations. The whole point of that dilemma is with DO programs you have to rotate to be considered. So I re-arranged my schedule and my first 3-4 months of 4th year will be ENT aways.

Plus the MD programs are heavy on research now. Somehow they've convinced the entire med student population that research is the most important thing ever. And most are willing to play the game and pretend that they are future academic physician-researchers in the making. So when I received my board scores I realized, that's great, but there's enough MDs with similar scores who also have research and the MD title. They'll drown out my chances.

So yea, 250+ on those usmle's, and do a bunch of research. And then maybe you'll have a chance.
 

Lamborghini1315

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Funny story, the last 2 DOs I asked (both happened to be ortho) -- so why did you choose to skip the AOA match? Both said they applied but didn't match DO, and somehow lucked out on MD spots. But generally speaking that's correct.

With DO ENT another issue is location. Half the programs are in MI. I thought long and hard about applying only to MD programs along with general surgery just in case. But I realized that I like the field too much. I rather do it in a less desireable location than do general surgery. Hence I scheduled several DO ent rotations. The whole point of that dilemma is with DO programs you have to rotate to be considered. So I re-arranged my schedule and my first 3-4 months of 4th year will be ENT aways.


Plus the MD programs are heavy on research now. Somehow they've convinced the entire med student population that research is the most important thing ever. And most are willing to play the game and pretend that they are future academic physician-researchers in the making. So when I received my board scores I realized, that's great, but there's enough MDs with similar scores who also have research and the MD title. They'll drown out my chances.

So yea, 250+ on those usmle's, and do a bunch of research. And then maybe you'll have a chance.


Good idea if ENT is what you want, but i have a question so you are going into the AOA match right? If that's the case how many ENT spots are available this year? Just curious.

Doable, research can be done during your light rotations. In regards to the USMLE's people should take it during their second year and leave time during 3rd ,4th years for research. I know some might delay taking USMLE's until 3rd year i am not sure if that's an effective strategy. Even allopathic programs at undesirable locations can be easily obtained similar to the osteopathic programs..so there's no clear criterion to compare your USMLE scores against MD counterparts to give up on a particular program. IMO it would be even better if you can audition at a program you are interested and show that you can be a team player. First impressions can go a long way...i myself have a lot to worry about knowing that GS is considered more competitive for DO's to crack. I doubt that's going to make me think twice..i will approach the boards like any med student and give it all.
 

gouda

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You shouldn't look at being DO as a weakness, but you should be critical of your overall stats compared to the overall ENT residency stat's.

In general ... great board scores, research - research - research, publications along with the research, picking strategic rotations (ie - appropriate clincal interest and at programs you are interested in), and then the usual - solid student, good rotations ...

If you know someone that is a +. If not on your rotations be proactive in make sure you get to know someone or better yet many people in the field.

Being DO is not a weakness unless you choose to look at it that way.
 
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Doowai

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Are there any DO ENT programs? If so why not do a osteopathic ENT program?
 

Lamborghini1315

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/thread.

If it's a tough residency for a US MD to obtain, how could it be easier for a DO? :confused:

Sometimes allopathic programs that have traditionally been open to DO's will view your application on a level plain field assuming similar board scores (USMLE's). Also not all MD guys or DO guys want to choose a program due to location and other factors..so in a match you could end up taking up a spot some guy that you think would win your spot because he decided for a diff program. I mean there's so much that could happen behind the scenes so i doubt you simply base it on MD V DO distinction. 20 ENT spots in the DO match is a little low to me so your chances might actually be higher in the allo match..i don't know if i am right but that's what i am assuming. I would love to hear from current DO ENT residents in allo programs.
 

DOCTORSAIB

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Just find one of those "DO-friendly" allopathic programs everyone is always talking about on SDN. You know, an allo residency that gets really excited about osteopathy and is always looking for more DOs for their program.

It's uber-easy to get into those programs! :laugh:

You a$$. haha.

I would love to hear from current DO ENT residents in allo programs.

Sound of crickets is pretty much all you'll hear my friend...
 

Yosh

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A classmate of mine matched into allo ENT @ MLK in Los Angeles, she had really good grades and worked pretty hard..I have other classmates that matched osteo ENT in MI, like others posted...

Any kind of surgical sub-specialty is difficult to match, and being a DO applying allo, not impossible but again due to the intense competitiveness it is certainly not the path of least resistance.

I went the allo/osteo route for Urology, matched DO and was relieved to have landed a spot.
 

MikeMD

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i went to a DO ENT who did an allopathic residency last time I was home to get my throat checked out, nice guy. For some reason though, his nametag said MD on it, but he confirmed with me that he went to KCUMB...weird :confused:
 

Lamborghini1315

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i went to a DO ENT who did an allopathic residency last time I was home to get my throat checked out, nice guy. For some reason though, his nametag said MD on it, but he confirmed with me that he went to KCUMB...weird :confused:

I am not going to use names but i met a few DO's in NY that had a hospital tag MD...its really the least imp part of our profession i am concerned with. Heck they can put no tag and just say Dr, if the guy is doing his job..people shouldn't be judgmental.
 

Lamborghini1315

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A classmate of mine matched into allo ENT @ MLK in Los Angeles, she had really good grades and worked pretty hard..I have other classmates that matched osteo ENT in MI, like others posted...

Any kind of surgical sub-specialty is difficult to match, and being a DO applying allo, not impossible but again due to the intense competitiveness it is certainly not the path of least resistance.

I went the allo/osteo route for Urology, matched DO and was relieved to have landed a spot.

So this friend of yours who matched at MLK, you think by any chance she would post here? I like to know her program's cutoffs and things she did to land the spot. Congrats on your urology spot...you must be ecstatic.
 

Lamborghini1315

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In addition to the bias (against DOs) and competitive nature of ENT, there is another reason why there are few DOs in super-competitive ACGME residencies - the AOA Match and the NRMP match are not held at the same time

For orthopedic surgery, neurosurgery, and to some extent general surgery, most people's goal is to get into the field since it is a very competitive atmosphere. To land an ACGME spot means choosing to skip the AOA Match and going with the NRMP Match (1 month later). It takes a lot of guts to have someone with impressive stats willingly choose to skip an AOA Match (and the chance to match into ortho or NSG or Surg) to take your chances with the NRMP.

And if you don't match AOA, what are the chances that you have the numbers, LORs, impressive background to match into a super-competitive ACGME spot?


You are misinterpreting our intentions, no one said they are going into the ACGME match with scores that are not competitive. I personally wouldn't if i don't have a USMLE score that's closer or above the avg to get into GS. I am very much against those who believe in using their comlex scores for competitive fields..like i said before take your USMLE's and you will know ahead of time where you stand. If you don't feel like your chances are reasonable..you must go into the AOA match. In addition, you don't need a lot of guts to do the ACGME match its not like everyone who is applying is clueless and somehow we all hope to get lucky..that's a pure assumption. Any person who has taken the boards, done rotations has a good idea where they fall..so i doubt anyone here with a borderline usmle score will go into the ACGME match hoping to crack neurosurgery. I don't like using names but for now i will point out a few Dr.Saib, Dr.Taus have good USMLE scores and i am sure when they are applying to ACGME or already have didn't feel like going into the ACGME match was somehow to show the kind of risk takers they are..its a bigtime life altering decision, you weight out your chances and go for it!
 
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