SDN members see fewer ads and full resolution images. Join our non-profit community!

Is it true that Harvard dental school has the same curriculum like Harvard med.?

Discussion in 'Medical Students - MD' started by chury, Jan 1, 2002.

  1. chury

    chury Member 10+ Year Member

    69
    0
    Dec 24, 1999
    Da Bronx
    Hi,

    I am second year in a MD school. A friend of mine is in his first year in Harvard dental school. He said thay were taking exactly the same classes like medical school people in their first 2 years, plus some additional dental courses. I understand this when it comes to Histo, biochem, Anatomy, but why would they have CV class on the same level, or pulmonary, renal or reproductive. How about physical diagnosis? I really do not get this Harvard approach. Do their dental students learn how to read EKG's and how to use the stethoscope, etc. It really does not make sense since they will not practice medicine but dentistry and will not be allowed to do stuff like MD's. Any thoughts on this?
     
  2. SDN Members don't see this ad. About the ads.
  3. Yah-E

    Yah-E Toof Sniper 10+ Year Member

    Chury,

    To my understanding from my friends that are in medical and dental schools, you are right, I think what your friend is trying to say is that they (Harvard med and dent) are all taking the same "BASIC SCIENCE" courses! I know for fact that a lot of schools around the nation are having both dental and medical students in the same basic science courses such as gross anatomy, histo, biochem, patho, microbio, and so on! As far as other additional classes goes, dental students will have dental anatomy, while medical will have CV, dental will have dental labs and medical will have something else that dental do not take! I hope this clears up some confusions! :cool:

    In addition, to add to what you have said about how dentists do not practice like the MDs...that is not all true! Today, if a graduated dental student decides to specialize, let say, in Oral Surgery, there is an option of addtional 5-6 years of post-training to obtain a MD/oral surgeon degree on top of the DDS(DMD)! Also, dentists with some continuing education in cosmetic surgeries are now able to perform oral/maxillofacial cosmetic surgeries as well (nose, lip reconstructive procedures). You'd be surprised how much dentistry has opened up to medicine beyond the traditional teeth extractions!

    :cool:
     
  4. MrLowKey

    MrLowKey

    41
    0
    Mar 2, 2011
    We take the same exact classes med students take in the first two years except for social medicine. In the afternoons we have dental classes and we have an additional craniofacial head and neck gross lab class that runs parallel. The difference is in years three and four. They hit wards we hit clinics. Yes this includes patient doctor one and two.
     
  5. Textbookversion

    Textbookversion 2+ Year Member

    840
    24
    Oct 11, 2012
    That seems like a massive waste of blood, sweat and tears.

    I don't see in what universe the dentist needs to know how to do a physical exam because I've never seen them do one.

    Why do they need to know useless errata like what the branches of the internal iliac artery are? At least for physicians it makes sense for some graduates who will be future radiologists, surgeons or pathologists.

    Histology? I can't ever picture a dentist looking at slides of cells. Do they ever do this? My dentist counts teeth and does procedures.

    Biochemistry and physiology? Why? Do dentists prescribe drugs often? Do they assess physiological changes?

    IDK seems weird to me.
     
  6. Lokhtar

    Lokhtar Dreaming about the lions 7+ Year Member

    3,103
    11
    Aug 6, 2007
    Philadelphia
    Yea, dentists do prescribe drugs pretty often.

    From what I know, the curriculum for the first two years is pretty much the same.
     
  7. Rendar5

    Rendar5 10+ Year Member

    6,873
    446
    Nov 12, 2003
    Florida
    dentists use drugs very regularly. sedatives and pain meds for procedures, antibiotics, etc. they do have to recognize and deal with oral and facial cancers, and infections. . Maxillofacial medicine is generally more an offshoot of dentistry. My wisdom teeth extractions were done under conscious sedation. No, they don't need to know the iliac artery, neither does a pulmonologist.
     
  8. peteB

    peteB Banned

    574
    3
    Sep 21, 2012
    So why does either have to learn it?
     
  9. Northwesterly

    Northwesterly 5+ Year Member

    555
    5
    Sep 22, 2009
    Willamette baseline
    Because the medical student learning histo could just as easily go into pathology.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2012
  10. Lokhtar

    Lokhtar Dreaming about the lions 7+ Year Member

    3,103
    11
    Aug 6, 2007
    Philadelphia
    What's wrong with dentists knowing anatomy and physiology?
     
  11. peteB

    peteB Banned

    574
    3
    Sep 21, 2012
    But what if he's 100% sure he doesn't want to? Why not just spend more time teaching people exactly what they need to know for their careers other than extra stuff they will definitely not use? One of the reasons we have a doctor shortage is that it takes so long to make one. If we streamlined the education process it would make a big difference.
     
  12. peteB

    peteB Banned

    574
    3
    Sep 21, 2012
    There's nothing wrong with it. There's nothing wrong with extra knowledge, but maybe the time could be better used to teach things and get experience with concepts and techniques they will actually need to know for their particular field, rather than stuff that they will likely never use or even remember.
     
  13. dr zaius

    dr zaius Physician 7+ Year Member

    1,349
    346
    Oct 27, 2008
    How many times do students change their minds on what they want to do during the MS1-3?

    How many times does a neurologist or pulmonologist tap into that reservoir of broad yet shallow knowledge from medical school or their medicine intern year? I'm just a third year, but it's pretty clear to me that a good physician knows a little bit about most common medical issues or concerning signs and symptoms such that he or she knows when to refer a patient to a specialist. In my opinion if you teach strictly in a box focusing on one organ or organ system you're setting the physician up to miss many important findings that would lead to at the very least referral to someone with more knowledge.
     
  14. peteB

    peteB Banned

    574
    3
    Sep 21, 2012
    Well this kind of connects to the other thread about midlevels working on their own and having full scope of practice. How come we (society) are OK with them having limited knowledge and potentially missing important findings because they haven't gone through a full M.D. education? As the article in the NY times today claims, NPs that work without MD supervision have the same outcomes as MDs as per 100 or so 18 year studies (something like that). Apparently their lack of full training doesn't keep them from missing important findings or knowing when to refer to a specialist. So where's the benefit?
     
  15. dr zaius

    dr zaius Physician 7+ Year Member

    1,349
    346
    Oct 27, 2008
    I think we can assume they weren't trained in a box either. I won't disagree that there are inefficiencies in the MD/DO education process, but I took your original statement to be something more akin to "advanced practice" respiratory therapist (I made this up) with a more intensive training (ie very focused education) rather than a nurse practitioner.
     
  16. dbeast

    dbeast Neurorectal surgeon 7+ Year Member

    It's common knowledge that dental school is harder than medical school because they take the exact same classes as us *plus* additional dental classes. Or at least that's what every dental student I meet reminds me within the first minute of talking to them.
     
  17. chronicidal

    chronicidal Scrub 7+ Year Member

    1,189
    345
    May 14, 2010
    They need people to fill in the bottom end of the curve so the future MDs won't feel as bad about themselves. (even though it's pass/fail)
     
  18. D elegans

    D elegans 5+ Year Member

    780
    57
    Mar 30, 2011
    Flyover Country
    Waiting for the inevitable comparison to optometry
     
  19. calvnandhobbs68

    calvnandhobbs68 I KNOW NOTHING 7+ Year Member

    3,041
    947
    May 20, 2010
    I went to go see if Shnurek was around to comment and then I found out...he's been banned?! Last time I saw he was on probation...the world won't be the same without random optometry information in every other allo thread.
     
  20. 88845

    88845 Guest 7+ Year Member

    315
    2
    Feb 1, 2006
    Holy 10+ year thread bump! At least it means you used the search function...
     
  21. ArcGurren

    ArcGurren only one will survive 2+ Year Member

    1,921
    12
    Aug 6, 2010
    More importantly, I can't believe people give a crap about this sort of thing.
     
  22. peteB

    peteB Banned

    574
    3
    Sep 21, 2012
    Dude, the fact is MDs (and DOs) are the best and everyone wants to be us. :) Just look around. In this thread you have dentists taking pride in the fact that they take MD courses. In another thread we're talking about nurse practitioners who are constantly trying to prove that they are as good as MDs and expand their scope of practice to that of MDs. And in the recent past there was a guy here jumping in every thread to show how optometrists are getting to do things that MDs do.

    Clearly everyone wants what we've got. :D And the fact that they go so far out of their way to try and "prove" that they're as good as us just shows how bad they want it.
     
  23. ArcGurren

    ArcGurren only one will survive 2+ Year Member

    1,921
    12
    Aug 6, 2010
    Oh I absolutely understand that. I'm just sick of it.
     
  24. Optotroll

    Optotroll Banned

    3
    0
    Oct 24, 2012
    :D

    You are right it wouldn't be the same. I take histology courses too. We look at slides and have to identify leukocytes, organs, pathogens etc. under the microscope. We also do gram staining and use enzymes and chemicals to narrow down the species of bacteria we find for example. We also did a conjunctival swab and put it on a blood agar plate to identify our endogenous bacteria.

    It is important to know this in dentistry and optometry in parallel with medicine because there is a projected 10 fold shortage of M.D.s and D.O.s in about 10-15 years so who is going to take over for the fact that medicine was too inept/greedy to expand medical schools and residency training?

    The point is that there are more ophthalmologists retiring than are being created and if you want to be the eye doctor of the future become an optometrist. If you want to be one of the few eye surgeons then by all means get that M.D. Just don't be pissed when I'll be assisting an O.D. perform scalpel eye surgery on my rotation in Oklahoma :p
     
  25. peteB

    peteB Banned

    574
    3
    Sep 21, 2012
    Assuming that what you said would even be true, it's better to be one of the few remaining M.D.'s than the masses of mediocre cheap replacements. :D

    Welcome back optotroll !
     
  26. 88845

    88845 Guest 7+ Year Member

    315
    2
    Feb 1, 2006
    It's more of a maldistribution rather than a true shortage. Most people don't want to live out in BFE.

    Where did you read / hear that more ophthalmologists are retiring than are being created?
     
  27. ArcGurren

    ArcGurren only one will survive 2+ Year Member

    1,921
    12
    Aug 6, 2010
    Optotroll = shnurek?
     
  28. calvnandhobbs68

    calvnandhobbs68 I KNOW NOTHING 7+ Year Member

    3,041
    947
    May 20, 2010
    He's bacckkkkk
     
  29. D elegans

    D elegans 5+ Year Member

    780
    57
    Mar 30, 2011
    Flyover Country
    Shnurek:

    I usually avoid engaging trolls, but you're a special kind of annoying. In fact, I'm less annoyed now and more interested in your particular psychopathology. What motivates you to devote so much of your valuable free time (assuming it is small since optometry school = medical school) to trolling these threads? What in your past has made you so vigilant about this ****? Might your passion be served better elsewhere?
     
  30. Optotroll

    Optotroll Banned

    3
    0
    Oct 24, 2012
    Demand for Ophthalmologists

    Check page 2. Currently in 2012, more are set to retire compared to new ones being trained so technically I am correct. However, the long term trend reverses that with slightly more ophthos being trained than retiring. At least this is the estimation.

    :D

    I don't know I just am sometimes bored so I go on SDN to make a little commotion, that's all. I'm in a city that I got bored of about 2-3 years ago so just trying to kill the time before I graduate and can move somewhere more appealing to my interests. Also, serving my passion elsewhere requires that I not be in my sweatpants and sitting on the couch.

    Optometry school does not equal medical school. I'd say its easier because the education is more focused.
     
  31. KnuxNole

    KnuxNole Sweets Addict 10+ Year Member

    4,586
    1,355
    May 3, 2006
    Is the optometry board that boring?

    And how the hell can you be bored of NYC?
     
  32. KnuxNole

    KnuxNole Sweets Addict 10+ Year Member

    4,586
    1,355
    May 3, 2006
    Fair enough. I visit NYC a few time due to having family there, and spent some time between college and med school there, and found it to be amazing. I was a smaller town guy, so a big city is like a 180 lol.

    With that said, the studios are so tiny in Manhattan :(
     
  33. BeastInfection

    BeastInfection 2+ Year Member

    139
    7
    Sep 19, 2011
    Well, you can boil any place down to a few things it contains and make it sound boring. California--just a bunch of water, sand, trees, blonde people with plastic surgery *yawn*.

    In NYC, you're forgetting things like...incredible museums, art galleries, beautiful parks, some of the best restaurants in the world (with more new ones opening up in a day than most other cities see in a year), a constant influx of great films and concerts, burgeoning music scene, one of the highest densities of young, creative and interesting people in the US, more exciting and fun events (cultural, parties or otherwise) going on each night of the week than you could possibly cover, diverse nightlife and people, etc. Lived in NYC for a couple years after UG and wish I could go back now.

    As a New Yorker, what area of the country would you like to live most?
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2012
  34. Nuel

    Nuel 10+ Year Member

    2,991
    1
    Mar 8, 2003
    Rap Group Home
    This is true. But a painful residency isn't necessary for them either.
     
  35. Slack3r

    Slack3r Sicker than your average 7+ Year Member

    2,819
    1,339
    Jul 23, 2008
    Isn't it against the TOS to create multiple accounts? Especially after you've been banned?
     
  36. Frazier

    Frazier Emergentologist Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 7+ Year Member

    4,463
    1,921
    Nov 12, 2009
    US
    MDApps:
    If one has already been banned, why fret breaking TOS after the fact?
     
  37. mmmcdowe

    mmmcdowe Duke of minimal vowels Moderator Physician Gold Donor Classifieds Approved 7+ Year Member

    9,587
    1,253
    Sep 12, 2008
    Columbia Dental also takes the same courses as the MD pre-clinical students, with a few exceptions (They don't take psych, don't do pelvic anatomy, etc) and additions.
     
  38. peteB

    peteB Banned

    574
    3
    Sep 21, 2012
    I actually enjoy having you here for comic relief.
     
  39. Frazier

    Frazier Emergentologist Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 7+ Year Member

    4,463
    1,921
    Nov 12, 2009
    US
    MDApps:
    Well, they do have some other options at their disposal... For example, instead of banning you, perhaps they will make your posts invisible by default.

    :ninja:
     
  40. Frazier

    Frazier Emergentologist Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 7+ Year Member

    4,463
    1,921
    Nov 12, 2009
    US
    MDApps:
    Well, from your perspective, it would appear that you are simply being ignored... which wouldn't be so far fetched given your reception here. So, from your perspective, it might look like business as usual -- just another day at the office.

    However, in reality, no one would see your posts or know of your presence.
     
  41. peteB

    peteB Banned

    574
    3
    Sep 21, 2012
    The admins just have to modify the forum code to look for posts that mention optometry in the allo forums and then automatically ban the user :)
     
  42. ToldYouSo

    ToldYouSo Student 7+ Year Member

    973
    75
    Oct 11, 2008
    New York
    hSDN Alumni
    What the hell? Aside from the insecure people you'd find in any field and the typical yet absolutely wrong-headed mentality of a pre-med the real life practicing dentists are too busy taking care of patients to give a f*** about what a physician else is doing much less want to be them. My OMFS and orthodontist work great hours, make several times what the avg. primary care provider will make and don't have to worry about call. Who thinks of this stuff and more importantly shouldn't you be too busy studying rather than pontificating what you think are the secret hidden desires of people who chose their given fields because they want to?
     
  43. peteB

    peteB Banned

    574
    3
    Sep 21, 2012
    It was a joke, relax. But you know its true.
     
  44. then some poor premed comes in and makes a thread about opthalmologists and optometry
     
  45. peteB

    peteB Banned

    574
    3
    Sep 21, 2012
    Good we can keep premeds out too. Two birds with one stone.
     
  46. SpecterGT260

    SpecterGT260 Catdoucheus 5+ Year Member

    8,223
    79
    Feb 1, 2012
    Beverly Hills Braces? :laugh: "several times" is a stretch.
     
  47. SpecterGT260

    SpecterGT260 Catdoucheus 5+ Year Member

    8,223
    79
    Feb 1, 2012
    It has been my experience that most health related programs take the same subjects but they aren't necessarily the same curriculum. Some schools may have med and dental students actually take some of the same courses. At mine and any other I have heard about they are directed and taught by different faculty or have separate requirements.
     
  48. Donald Juan

    Donald Juan 5+ Year Member

    1,516
    1,955
    May 22, 2011
    GA
    Of course dental students learn everything we do in med school plus more...just like how PA's learn everything we do just crammed into two years so it's actually a lot harder...and vets have to learn everything about medicine and apply it to every animal out there so they also have it harder as well.
     
  49. SpecterGT260

    SpecterGT260 Catdoucheus 5+ Year Member

    8,223
    79
    Feb 1, 2012
    also nurses. They learn everything we do (it isn't all that hard or complicated anyways) but they manage to keep appealing personalities while they do it
     
  50. peteB

    peteB Banned

    574
    3
    Sep 21, 2012
    They're all beauty queens too

    Sent from my DROIDX using SDN Mobile
     
  51. KnuxNole

    KnuxNole Sweets Addict 10+ Year Member

    4,586
    1,355
    May 3, 2006
    I dunno which nurses you've been meeting :eek:
     

Share This Page