Is it worth it to pursue dentistry nowadays?

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I hopped a lot. I also speak 6 languages, 3 of them very fluent. Sometimes I would say “open wide” in the wrong language to some patients, that’s how crazy it use to be.

So we got a dude here speaking 6 languages. Owns a bunch of medical dental buildings and a few practices.

This guy would be successful in any given field.

Pre dents I certainly hope you guys don’t think this is the norm.;) And if you do think it’s the norm, go buy some lottery tickets while you are at it:hilarious:

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Curious to hear opinions on spending $70K-100K per year for specialty residency? (specifically Endo)
Mostly, is it worth accepting a position for that much tuition (if it is a guaranteed acceptance) vs holding out for a cheaper school or a different cycle (with obviously no guarantee of admission)?
I graduated dental school with ~$190K in student loans, so I'd be adding on to that.

My apologies if this specific point has already been addressed. There were a lot of comments on this thread to wade through...
 
#1. I agree.

#4. I too enjoy work, but as a general dentist (and you being an orthodontist) there is a big difference. I would longer recovery period from work than an orthodontist, and with the whole long term posture risk, a general dentist body burns out sooner than orthodontist. My 3 days of work is equivalent to 5 days of work for you.
This is very true…and that’s why it’s hard for me to quit the easy associate job (and just work at my own offices) that pays me handsomely for sitting around all day long (because the assistants do all the manual labors). A lot of times, I have considered working less days so I can have time traveling to see the world but then I realize that I am living in the best country in the world….why waste money to travel to poorer countries? Why do I have to downgrade? And my kids are also very busy with schools (you know how we, Asian parents, are pushing our kids)….the only time I can travel with them is a few short weeks during the summer. So I continue to work 5 days/week and save $$$$.....and drive nice cars:D.

Many new grad orthos don’t realize how easy ortho is. I can charge half as much as the national average fee, keep the overhead low and I can do very well….and the workload (the doctor’s time spent on each patient) is a lot lighter than that of the GPs. I guess the ortho programs have taught these new grads to do things the hard way. They learn in the residency that in order to have a successful practice, they have to buy a CBCT, intraoral scanner, this machine, and that machine....hire this person, hire that person etc. What these new grads don’t realize that a couple of cheap wires and brackets are all they need to straighten teeth and keep the patients happy. And happy patients will bring in more patients.
 
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Charles:

You should reach out to that new ortho grad on the wall street journal that is 1 million dollars in debt and tell him how easy it is.
 
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I barely check these forums these days.

I would say with a good plan, Dentistry is still strong and the right profession to pursue. Ofcourse a lot depends on the dentist, ambitions, business knowledge and where he/she practices.

I have been fortunate to cut back on Dentistry a lot and put my hard earned money from 8 years in Dentistry into other businesses. During those 8 years, I opened multiple offices and bought commercial buildings, and now work 3 days a week and don’t plan to work as hard as those first 8 years in my career ever again. I went through a lot of stress, gained about 10 lbs, even triggered shingles from the stress. However, I’m happy now and have a lot of time to catch up with life and travel more. I’m turning 40 this year... and I think Dentistry has been good to me, but it came at a cost; hard work and patience.

Would I do it all over again? You bet! I believe in working towards a long term plan and gain for short term pain. I think any dentist can do what I did, but not every dentist wants to work really hard and have the patience to make it in the long.

So, yes, I still believe in Dentistry.

Although @Cold Front and I have had differences in our approaches to dentistry and investing, this shows that there's many paths to succeeding in life through dentistry. If you want to succeed, you need a plan of action, prepare to work hard, and have an exit strategy for dentistry. What I do is not unique (as testified by some posters here), you just need a way to get a lot of patients, generate a lot of revenue, and a plan to make your money work for you.

To sum it up:
1. Get your DDS/DMD and/or specialty certificate
2. Strategize/Plan your practice to make a lot of money (this is where a lot of the hangups are). I think throughout the many many posts, the information is there to help you with a startup.
3. Reinvest the revenue to generate more income
4. Repeat until you have enough money to retire or keep doing #3 if you're bored.
 
Charles:

You should reach out to that new ortho grad on the wall street journal that is 1 million dollars in debt and tell him how easy it is.

Looked that guy up. He seems like he's doing just fine. Lives in utah, has a family, nice house, drives a tesla. Mike (@hukesnow) • Instagram photos and videos

He will probably be just under 2 million dollars in government loans when his 25 years are up. That will cost him about 800,000 dollars in tax bomb. If he invests just 15,000 dollars a year at a measly 5.5 interest rate or 10,000 dollars a year at 8 percent interest rate, that will cover his tax bomb. He pays 19,200 a year for his minimum loan payments. Add those together, he'll be paying 34,200 a year for his 25-year period to pay back his loans. If he makes 225,000 dollars for the rest of his life, that's about 150,000 dollars a year after taxes in utah. That's 115,000 dollars a year to spend on whatever he wants. Not rich by any means, but not as bad as the dramatic "1,000,000 dollar in debt" makes it sound like.
 
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Looked that guy up. He seems like he's going to be just fine. Lives in utah, has a family, nice house, drives a tesla.

He will probably be just under 2 million dollars in government loans when his 25 years are up. That will cost him about 800,000 dollars in tax bomb. If he invests just 15,000 dollars a year at a measly 5.5 interest rate or 10,000 dollars a year at 8 percent interest rate, that will cover his tax bomb. He pays 19,200 a year for his minimum loan payments. Add those together, he'll be paying 34,200 a year for his 25-year period to pay back his loans. If he makes 225,000 dollars for the rest of his life, that's about 150,000 dollars a year after taxes in utah. That's 115,000 dollars a year to spend on whatever he wants. Not rich by any means, but not as bad as the dramatic "1,000,000 dollar in debt" makes it sound like.
Looked that guy up. He seems like he's doing just fine. Lives in utah, has a family, nice house, drives a tesla. Mike (@hukesnow) • Instagram photos and videos

He will probably be just under 2 million dollars in government loans when his 25 years are up. That will cost him about 800,000 dollars in tax bomb. If he invests just 15,000 dollars a year at a measly 5.5 interest rate or 10,000 dollars a year at 8 percent interest rate, that will cover his tax bomb. He pays 19,200 a year for his minimum loan payments. Add those together, he'll be paying 34,200 a year for his 25-year period to pay back his loans. If he makes 225,000 dollars for the rest of his life, that's about 150,000 dollars a year after taxes in utah. That's 115,000 dollars a year to spend on whatever he wants. Not rich by any means, but not as bad as the dramatic "1,000,000 dollar in debt" makes it sound like.

Seriously he's not okay. There's no justifying his choice to leverage his entire life to BUY a profession.
 
Seriously he's not okay. There's no justifying his choice to leverage his entire life to BUY a profession.

Do you mean in case the federal government somehow ****s them over? If that happens, an extraordinary collapse will be waiting for current and future health care professionals.
 
So we got a dude here speaking 6 languages. Owns a bunch of medical dental buildings and a few practices.

This guy would be successful in any given field.

Pre dents I certainly hope you guys don’t think this is the norm.;) And if you do think it’s the norm, go buy some lottery tickets while you are at it:hilarious:
I speak 6 languages because I lived in 3 different continents of the world (Africa, Europe and North America). English is not my first language, and I didn’t start speaking English until I was maybe age 12. I also don’t have an accent when I speak English because my native language is somewhat latin, and has a lot of Italian words in it, so learning English was not as difficult as say if I spoke Cantonese or Sawahili.

Anyways, I agree that speaking in more than 1 language is a big asset in dentistry, in the US or around the world in any profession.
 
A lot of times, I have considered working less days so I can have time traveling to see the world but then I realize that I am living in the best country in the world….why waste money to travel to poorer countries? Why do I have to downgrade?
I would disagree. I lived in many parts of the world and it’s not necessarily true that we live in the best country in the world... because the word “best” is subjective. Many American expats live overseas in places they see is better than the U.S. for them.

Yes, the U.S. is the best in many and most qualities people want in a country. But in that same token, and as just 1 example, crime is very bad in this country compared to almost every developed country in the world. You may live in a nice and safe neighborhood and not see the real streets most people live in, but you are very limited in a way where you can live and go in this country. There are many other examples that I can get into (Drug crisis, policing, healthcare, general education and so on) that other countries rank better than this country. I encourage you to travel if you can, and at least experience not just what other countries has to offer, but also the beauty of the planet.
 
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Charles:

You should reach out to that new ortho grad on the wall street journal that is 1 million dollars in debt and tell him how easy it is.
Nope, it won’t be easy for a person, who chose to make less than the minimally required monthly payment amount (through some sort of government program) so that he and his family can have an extravagant lifestyle. This guy will probably never agree to work on weekends and late hours. He probably doesn’t know how to build an ortho office for less than $100k. If you read many of my posts, you can see that I am a strong proponent of working hard, keeping overhead low, living within the mean, and being less picky about the job offers.

I invited a couple of new grads on this forum and orthotown forum to my office and see how I run it. I even introduced some of them the contractor, who built my office for under $100k (my latest office only cost me $50k to build). I told them about some of my GP friends who were looking to hire in-house ortho but they all said no to the job offers. They were just too picky. They all want to build a state-of-art facility, jobs that guarantee at least $1k a day, no weekend hours etc. They can’t work with paper chart system. They don’t even know how to drop the film into the film processor.
 
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I would disagree. I lived in many parts of the world and it’s not necessarily true that we live in the best country in the world... because the word “best” is subjective. Many American expats live overseas in places they see is better than the U.S. for them.

Yes, the U.S. is the best in many and most qualities people want in a country. But in that same token, and as just 1 example, crime is very bad in this country compared to almost every developed country in the world. You may live in a nice and safe neighborhood and not see the real streets most people live in, but you are very limited in a way where you can live and go in this country. There are many other examples that I can get into (Drug crisis, policing, healthcare, general education and so on) that other countries rank better than this country. I encourage you to travel if you can, and at least experience not just what other countries has to offer, but also the beauty of the planet.
I think this is where you and I disagree. When I said US is the best country, I am talking about the whole package: clean air, clean street, a stable government (if you don't like the current occupant of the White house, just vote that person out every 4 years), the right to vote, freedom of speech/religion, best healthcare (at least I don’t have to wait in line to get medical treatment like in some socialist European countries), best education (I am talking about post high school educations), equal opportunity for everyone etc. It’s sad to hear a potential presidential candidate, Andrew Cuomo, who said thing like “America was never that great.”

Sure, many Americans choose to live in third world countries like Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand etc, where they are treated like a king and the cost of living is a lot less than here in the US. But the air quality is so poor that people have to wear masks to go outside. The streets are dirty and full of trash. There is no human right there. And there is no such thing as FDA that controls the quality of the food that you eat.
 
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gosh i love reading these posts by dentists who think they are the real deal
 
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I think this is where you and I disagree. When I said US is the best country, I am talking about the whole package: clean air, clean street, a stable government (if you don't like the current occupant of the White house, just vote that person out every 4 years), the right to vote, freedom of speech/religion, best healthcare (at least I don’t have to wait in line to get medical treatment like in some socialist European countries), best education (I am talking about post high school educations), equal opportunity for everyone etc. It’s sad to hear a potential presidential candidate, Andrew Cuomo, who said thing like “America was never that great.”

Sure, many Americans choose to live in third world countries like Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand etc, where they are treated like a king and the cost of living is a lot less than here in the US. But the air quality is so poor that people have to wear masks to go outside. The streets are dirty and full of trash. There is no human right there. And there is no such thing as FDA that controls the quality of the food that you eat.
I understand your point. But with all those examples you used, those are not good examples when you compare a developing countries like Vietnam and Cambodia to the US. I visited and have friends in developed countries. I personally hold a citizenship in a developed European country. My wife is from Australia, which I visit from time to time. Australia alone is better in some areas than the US, in healthcare and cleanliness, even ranks better in opportunities for Women than the US and no mass shootings (specially in schools), but not in education and professional opportunities. Many parts of America is becoming more xenophobic and highly economic and racial segregated. Also, big corporations control and influence many aspects of society in the US than any other country.

You will never see any American city ranking in the top 5 or 10 places to live in the world because of crime, traffic and rampant homelessness.

Anyways, America is great place to live and work, but there are also other countries equally good or better. It will come down to what a person wants in a country. I personally do love and see myself in America, but I’m not naive enough to think America is the Best in everything.
 
gosh i love reading these posts by dentists who think they are the real deal

Between the pre debts who haven’t even started working, the top 1% and the Debbie downers, this forums brings the best entertainment
 
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gosh i love reading these posts by dentists who think they are the real deal




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The online dream. We're all big deals. :D
 
I understand your point. But with all those examples you used, those are not good examples when you compare a developing countries like Vietnam and Cambodia to the US. I visited and have friends in developed countries. I personally hold a citizenship in a developed European country. My wife is from Australia, which I visit from time to time. Australia alone is better in some areas than the US, in healthcare and cleanliness, even ranks better in opportunities for Women than the US and no mass shootings (specially in schools), but not in education and professional opportunities. Many parts of America is becoming more xenophobic and highly economic and racial segregated. Also, big corporations control and influence many aspects of society in the US than any other country.

You will never see any American city ranking in the top 5 or 10 places to live in the world because of crime, traffic and rampant homelessness.

Anyways, America is great place to live and work, but there are also other countries equally good or better. It will come down to what a person wants in a country. I personally do love and see myself in America, but I’m not naive enough to think America is the Best in everything.
You have citizenship in a European country and your wife is from Australia. But in the end, you both choose to live and invest your money in the USA, the richest capitalist country in the world. There are pros and cons for every country but like I said before, if you look at the whole package, America is the best.

About racism in America…..We elected an African American twice for president. I don’t see this in other European countries.

About the mass killings….well, it’s hard to stop mentally ill individuals from performing these evil acts. In America, they used guns and improvised bombs. In Europe, they used cars and trucks to drive into the crowds. There may be higher incidents reported here in the US and that’s because it has proportionally larger population. That’s why we need to support the men and women in the police force, the ICE agency, and the military, who have worked hard to keep America safe.

About the traffic congestions…..I’d much rather drive my own car in a traffic jamp than using the public transportation and sharing seats with a bunch of strangers. My car is like my second home….I eat, take naps in my car during the lunch breaks.
 
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You have citizenship in a European country and your wife is from Australia. But in the end, you both choose to live and invest your money in the USA, the richest capitalist country in the world. There are pros and cons for every country but like I said before, if you look at the whole package, America is the best.

About racism in America…..We elected an African American twice for president. I don’t see this in other European countries.

About the mass killings….well, it’s hard to stop mentally ill individuals from performing these evil acts. In America, they used guns and improvised bombs. In Europe, they used cars and trucks to drive into the crowds. There may be higher incidents reported here in the US and that’s because it has proportionally larger population. That’s why we need to support the men and women in the police force, the ICE agency, and the military, who have worked hard to keep America safe.

About the traffic congestions…..I’d much rather drive my own car in a traffic jamp than using the public transportation and sharing seats with a bunch of strangers. My car is like my second home….I eat, take naps in my car during the lunch breaks.

You must have a really nice car :)
 
I am working at a corp office right now. I am reading posts on the this forum and watching the news while my assistants are performing work on the patients. No need to travel because it's like having a vacation working here.
 

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I am working at a corp office right now. I am reading posts on the this forum and watching the news while my assistants are performing work on the patients. No need to travel because it's like having a vacation working here.

This is what life is like when you have everything paid off, got a big old 1 mil portfolio in the longest bull economy in recent years, and don’t have to work if you don’t have to work. Probably have a 5 mil portfolio... bought that amazon at 50$ and google at 300$.

Please Charles you have to put that in. There’s no way new grads be chillin and “all is good.” I know a bunch of broke orthos trying to make ends meet and traveling to multiple offices to pay off their loans.

Come on now you have to put that disclaimer in buddy.
 
This is what life is like when you have everything paid off, got a big old 1 mil portfolio in the longest bull economy in recent years, and don’t have to work if you don’t have to work. Probably have a 5 mil portfolio... bought that amazon at 50$ and google at 300$.

Please Charles you have to put that in. There’s no way new grads be chillin and “all is good.” I know a bunch of broke orthos trying to make ends meet and traveling to multiple offices to pay off their loans.

Come on now you have to put that disclaimer in buddy.
Nope, I didn’t stop working hard after I paid off my student loans and investment properties loans. Currently, I travel to 6 different offices. I work 3 Saturdays and 3 Sundays every month at my own offices because I don’t want to quit the easy good paying job at the corp office. For many of my colleagues, who don’t have P/T jobs at the corp, when their practices suffer during the slow months (from Sept-Jan), they still have to pay the same fixed expenses: staff salaries, rents, worker comp and other insurances etc…..and they bring home less $$$. Unlike them, I don’t have to worry about these because of the guaranteed salary that I earn from the corp office. During my college years, I worked 365 days/year (from 2am-6am) as a newspaper delivery boy so it’s not really a big deal for me to work on Saturdays and Sundays.

I remember back in the day when I was still a new grad, it wasn’t as easy as it is right now because I didn’t have any clinical experience. I hop between chairs and worked like a dog. I worried about every little thing. Now that I’ve seen enough difficult cases learned how to deal with them, everything becomes easy. Seeing 60-70 patients a day is no longer a big deal anymore.

Just now, the manager asked me if I am ok to drive 102 miles to work at a corp office, where the orthodontist can’t come to work because he’s in the hospital, for this coming Wednesday. It’s my day off and I have no plan to do anything. So I said yes to her….it’s easy money….it’ll help pay for the leased car this month.
 
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You have citizenship in a European country and your wife is from Australia. But in the end, you both choose to live and invest your money in the USA, the richest capitalist country in the world. There are pros and cons for every country but like I said before, if you look at the whole package, America is the best.

About racism in America…..We elected an African American twice for president. I don’t see this in other European countries.

About the mass killings….well, it’s hard to stop mentally ill individuals from performing these evil acts. In America, they used guns and improvised bombs. In Europe, they used cars and trucks to drive into the crowds. There may be higher incidents reported here in the US and that’s because it has proportionally larger population. That’s why we need to support the men and women in the police force, the ICE agency, and the military, who have worked hard to keep America safe.

About the traffic congestions…..I’d much rather drive my own car in a traffic jamp than using the public transportation and sharing seats with a bunch of strangers. My car is like my second home….I eat, take naps in my car during the lunch breaks.
I honestly my wife and I live in the US for the lower income taxes. It’s the deal breaker for me, most other developed countries have much higher taxes, but that comes back to their society with better public transportation, better public healthcare, better respect for minorities, better bridges and roads, better mental health facilities, and overall better schools (not in grad or professional schools). Just because Obama was president 2 terms doesn’t mean America have addressed and solved their race issues, it’s probably the same if not worse after Obama. Trump called a former African American staff member a dog last week. Anyways I agree, the overall package is still the US, but I saw myself in many parts of the world, but for me it was Taxes.
 
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I understand your point. But with all those examples you used, those are not good examples when you compare a developing countries like Vietnam and Cambodia to the US. I visited and have friends in developed countries. I personally hold a citizenship in a developed European country. My wife is from Australia, which I visit from time to time. Australia alone is better in some areas than the US, in healthcare and cleanliness, even ranks better in opportunities for Women than the US and no mass shootings (specially in schools), but not in education and professional opportunities. Many parts of America is becoming more xenophobic and highly economic and racial segregated. Also, big corporations control and influence many aspects of society in the US than any other country.

You will never see any American city ranking in the top 5 or 10 places to live in the world because of crime, traffic and rampant homelessness.

Anyways, America is great place to live and work, but there are also other countries equally good or better. It will come down to what a person wants in a country. I personally do love and see myself in America, but I’m not naive enough to think America is the Best in everything.

You have citizenship in a European country and your wife is from Australia. But in the end, you both choose to live and invest your money in the USA, the richest capitalist country in the world. There are pros and cons for every country but like I said before, if you look at the whole package, America is the best.

About racism in America…..We elected an African American twice for president. I don’t see this in other European countries.

About the mass killings….well, it’s hard to stop mentally ill individuals from performing these evil acts. In America, they used guns and improvised bombs. In Europe, they used cars and trucks to drive into the crowds. There may be higher incidents reported here in the US and that’s because it has proportionally larger population. That’s why we need to support the men and women in the police force, the ICE agency, and the military, who have worked hard to keep America safe.

About the traffic congestions…..I’d much rather drive my own car in a traffic jamp than using the public transportation and sharing seats with a bunch of strangers. My car is like my second home….I eat, take naps in my car during the lunch breaks.

I think the term "best" is relative, looking at the lifestyle that you want to live. There's plenty of US expats in Mexico and are any of them really living a good life? I think for the money that they have, it's better than what they can afford in the US, but from our (dentist) standards, it's still miles away from what we would deem as good. I sure as hell don't want to live in Mexico (although I contemplated this for a few months) because I want the freedom to do what I want, not be afraid of my safety, wear nice jewelry if I want to, drive a nice car, and have a nice house, without being afraid of being a target. Also, we have the second amendment as the great equalizer. If you harm me, my family, or my personal property, I don't have to stand idly by because I have the means to defend myself.

I lived in SE asia for a good amount of time. What I can tell you is that, it's great if you have money and connections. Corruption runs rampant and you have to pay a lot of people off to get anything done... but if you have the money, you can do anything you want. The shared infrastructure is still not the best, traffic rules aren't followed much, if at all, and petty crime tends to be rampant. There's definitely quality of life issues (clean water, raw untreated sewage in streets, flooding, etc...)

The US is not perfect, but I still think it's a land of opportunity for all. When you can lift yourself out of poverty and have upward mobility in economic status, having that chance is enough even if you weren't raised with a silver spoon.

This is what life is like when you have everything paid off, got a big old 1 mil portfolio in the longest bull economy in recent years, and don’t have to work if you don’t have to work. Probably have a 5 mil portfolio... bought that amazon at 50$ and google at 300$.

Please Charles you have to put that in. There’s no way new grads be chillin and “all is good.” I know a bunch of broke orthos trying to make ends meet and traveling to multiple offices to pay off their loans.

Come on now you have to put that disclaimer in buddy.

If our experiences were not necessarily representative, a fluke, or a streak of luck, then I would ask you how you would rank yourself (below, average, or above average), whether you would care to share what your production range would be (as a below average, average, or above average practice), and what challenges new grads would have. It will be harder to refute that dentistry is a good career path, while you sound like a successful dentist in your own right.

Right now, even from the naysayers, I think the financial future still seems good for dentistry from what they say about their personal/professional lives (1M+ production, paying off student/practice loans within a few years, etc...).
 
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I honestly my wife and I live in the US for the lower income taxes. It’s the deal breaker for me, most other developed countries have much higher taxes, but that comes back to their society with better public transportation, better public healthcare, better respect for minorities, better bridges and roads, better mental health facilities, and overall better schools (not in grad or professional schools). Just because Obama was president 2 terms doesn’t mean America have addressed and solved their race issues, it’s probably the same if not worse after Obama. Trump called a former African American staff member a dog last week. Anyways I agree, the overall package is still the US, but I saw myself in many parts of the world, but for me it was Taxes.
Yes, I’d much rather keep more of my hard earned money and use that money to pay for my own healthcare, kids’ educations, investments for my retirement etc….than paying higher income taxes. It’s called personal responsibility. The government is never good at spending the taxpayers’ money.

I am not trying to defend the president but that’s the way he is. Even if that person is a White person, he would still call that person a dog. How would you feel when your former employee, whom you helped and trusted, betrayed you? That staff member is an African American and he did hire her, didn’t he? So he is obviously not a racist.
 
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I am working at a corp office right now. I am reading posts on the this forum and watching the news while my assistants are performing work on the patients. No need to travel because it's like having a vacation working here.
You know if you become a lifetime donor, all those ads should go away :D:D
 
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I am not trying to defend the president but that’s the way he is. Even if that person is a White person, he would still call that person a dog. How would you feel when your former employee, whom you helped and trusted, betrayed you? That staff member is an African American and he did hire her, didn’t he? So he is obviously not a racist.
I didn’t vote for Trump but I have couple of books about how he got his start. To say he is not a racist is mind boggling. He was sued by the Justice Department on many discrimination cases for being racially bias in his real estate businesses in the 70’s. He literally said “I hate black men counting my money at my Casinos”. I won’t even get into what else he said about others - Mexicans, Muslims, and so on. He probably said something racist about your heritage and yet you still might give him a pass for not being a racist.

That’s just incredible to me.
 
I didn’t vote for Trump but I have couple of books about how he got his start. To say he is not a racist is mind boggling. He was sued by the Justice Department on many discrimination cases for being racially bias in his real estate businesses in the 70’s. He literally said “I hate black men counting my money at my Casinos”. I won’t even get into what else he said about others - Mexicans, Muslims, and so on. He probably said something racist about your heritage and yet you still might give him a pass for not being a racist.

That’s just incredible to me.
...and yet he appointed Ben Carson to be the HUD secretary. He had more Black and Hispanic votes than what Romney had in 2012. Racist or not....who am I to judge? Only God can see what's in his heart.
 
...and yet he appointed Ben Carson to be the HUD secretary. He had more Black and Hispanic votes than what Romney had in 2012. Racist or not....who am I to judge? Only God can see what's in his heart.
No, God is not the only one who can see what is in his heart. You can clearly see from his actions that he is a racist and an idiot. It is just that you either ignore it or agree with his racist ideals.
 
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I didn’t vote for Trump but I have couple of books about how he got his start. To say he is not a racist is mind boggling. He was sued by the Justice Department on many discrimination cases for being racially bias in his real estate businesses in the 70’s. He literally said “I hate black men counting my money at my Casinos”. I won’t even get into what else he said about others - Mexicans, Muslims, and so on. He probably said something racist about your heritage and yet you still might give him a pass for not being a racist.

That’s just incredible to me.
Just out of curiosity, are you black? And what did you get on your DAT reading comprehension?
 
Let's get back on topic folks, this isnt the place for politics.
 
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...and yet he appointed Ben Carson to be the HUD secretary. He had more Black and Hispanic votes than what Romney had in 2012. Racist or not....who am I to judge? Only God can see what's in his heart.
I will stop the politics here. But even a racist can have one or 2 minority friends as a cover, so they can say they are not a racist.
 
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gosh i love reading these posts by dentists who think they are the real deal
Just out of curiosity, are you black? And what did you get on your DAT reading comprehension?
I am not into Dentistry at all, I just troll my patients. I am also Avatar blue and got into dental school without a DAT.

Smh.
 
Curious to hear opinions on spending $70K-100K per year for specialty residency? (specifically Endo)
Mostly, is it worth accepting a position for that much tuition (if it is a guaranteed acceptance) vs holding out for a cheaper school or a different cycle (with obviously no guarantee of admission)?
I graduated dental school with ~$190K in student loans, so I'd be adding on to that.

My apologies if this specific point has already been addressed. There were a lot of comments on this thread to wade through...
If you have an acceptance from an Endo program, and you really enjoy doing root canals, I would take it. The $200k debt is manageable in the long run.

Most of my endodontist friends make $400-700k a year. Ofcourse location, referrals and business skills goes into that.
 
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If you have an acceptance from an Endo program, and you really enjoy doing root canals, I would take it. The $200k debt is manageable in the long run.

Most of my endodontist friends make $400-700k a year. Ofcourse location, referrals and business skills goes into that.

Wow didn’t know endodontistS make more than Oral surgeons. Or people you know are just huge exceptions..
 
Wow didn’t know endodontistS make more than Oral surgeons. Or people you know are just huge exceptions..
Your income depends on how hard you are willing to work. Unlike general dentistry, most specialists don’t work full time at one location because there are not enough patients to keep them busy 5 days/week. To keep their work day fully booked, they usually “squeeze” in as many patients in one day as possible (for ortho, 50-100 pts a day…for OS, perio, 8-15 pts a day….my endo friend sees around 8 pts a day). And for the other free days in the week, they travel to work at their other satellite offices, work for GPs, and/or work for corp offices. So a specialist who is willing to travel to multiple offices, works 5-6 days/week, will of course make many times more than a specialist, who only works at one location 2-3 days/week (or 5 days/week but the daily schedule is very light).
 
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Wow didn’t know endodontistS make more than Oral surgeons. Or people you know are just huge exceptions..
I have an oral surgeon friend and former classmate in Colorado, who opened a new practice few months ago. It’s normal for OS owner office to collect $100k a month... with 40-50% overhead. Which means the take home can range from $50-60k a month. That’s an average, and the top 5% OS large practice owners earn probably $1M a year.

Do what you love, be very good at it, and the money will come.
 
Do what you love, be very good at it, and the money will come.

Unfortunately .... your last statement isn't the end all to being a successful dentist. It's a great and appropriate starting point. Yes .... ideally you should pick a profession that you can somewhat enjoy doing for a living. When I was in DS .... Ortho was the ONLY option for me. To this day .... I enjoy practicing orthodontics especially in the PT Corporate environment. 100% patient care. Orthodontics has been very good for myself and my family. I cannot complain ..... except on here. :)

Buttttttt ............ times do change. Just being a great dentist with a good reputation isn't necessarily going to protect you from dentists and Corps opening right next to you. In a saturated, urban area .... there is A LOT of competition for those patients. 20 years ago .... I opened a new scratch office in an area of Phoenix. There was ONLY one older orthodontist approx. 4 miles away. Lots of roof tops. Fast forward 10 years. There are approximately 15-20 Orthodontists (private and Corp) within a 4 mile radius. Same can be said of the general dentists in the area. Many of the GPs that referred to my office sold to the Corps. The Corps brought in their own Orthos. Even with my good reputation .... parents were taking their other kids to offices that offered financing beyond 20-24 months, cheaper fees than my FFS fees, etc. etc. Can't blame them. It's economics. Employers are all going towards the cheaper HMO/PPO plans for their employees.

So .... yes. Be good at your chosen profession. An average dentist/specialist will make a decent living. But being VERY successful will require additional efforts such as location, work ethic, marketing and business skills, how much DS debt you incurred in DS, etc. etc. etc. Also remember that if you choose an IDEAL location .... well .... others will want to be at that same ideal location.

I believe the future dental model that will be successful is one that emulates the Corp models. Group practice with GPs and specialists working together instead of competing with each other.. Shared expenses. Less individual risk. Less individual financial indebtedness. Extensive patient financing. Extensive marketing. Professional comradery.
 
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...
Buttttttt ............ times do change. Just being a great dentist with a good reputation isn't necessarily going to protect you from dentists and Corps opening right next to you. In a saturated, urban area .... there is A LOT of competition for those patients. 20 years ago .... I opened a new scratch office in an area of Phoenix. There was ONLY one older orthodontist approx. 4 miles away. Lots of roof tops. Fast forward 10 years. There are approximately 15-20 Orthodontists (private and Corp) within a 4 mile radius. Same can be said of the general dentists in the area. Many of the GPs that referred to my office sold to the Corps. The Corps brought in their own Orthos. Even with my good reputation .... parents were taking their other kids to offices that offered financing beyond 20-24 months, cheaper fees than my FFS fees, etc. etc. Can't blame them. It's economics. Employers are all going towards the cheaper HMO/PPO plans for their employees.
Agree. Being a good dentist with good reputation is not enough to compete against these corp offices. In order to compete against these corp offices, one has to:

1. Lower the treatment fee to compete against the corp.
2. Offer things that the corp offices also offer such as accepting medicaid and most insurance plans, opening the office on Saturdays and Sundays.
3. Offer things that corp offices fail to offer such as good customer service, friendly staff (patients don't have to call some silly 800 numbers and being put on hold forever), cleaner office, less wait time, loose brackets are repaired the same day etc.

That's why it's important to keep the overhead low and pass on the low cost tx to the patients. Who wouldn't want good tx results at low cost?
 
I know this isn't really an issue, but say that residencies become mandatory after dental school, then the number of dental students can be capped, just like in medicine, making sure the market isn't saturated. Would this solve a lot of problems?

Also, to be completely honest, I'm not sure how long many schools are going to be able to ask what they are asking in tuition fees. Call me naive, but I really think we are nearing some sort of tipping point.
 
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Problem with the idea of mandatory residencies, is there are not nearly enough QUALITY GPRs for every dental student graduating dental school to attend. Medical residencies are typically funded by Medicaid/federal funds, which is why dental residencies based out of hospitals , such as pedo and OS, are typically paid. There would have to be federal funds set aside to fund these programs, because many students simply cant afford to shell out even more money for a residency, at the current tuition levels, not counting the interest accumulating on their existing loans.
With the current saturation levels, especially for GPs, I think many students need to take a long hard look at which schools they apply to, based on the financial ramifications. Maybe students should consider not applying to schools charging 350k and up...; once applications and enrollments drop, schools will be forced to either drop tuition or close.
 
In other countries they do manage to have these "residencies" funded by the government. Other countries also sometimes don't require a bachelor's degree before dental school. Maybe if the ADA did some serious lobbying something could be done? Also, doesn't the State of Delaware now require a residency before being allowed to work in that state?

Also, you speak of a saturation, but I think that's just the major metro areas. If you go outside of those areas (not even that far), then there is even a shortage. I think there is just a maldistribution of dentists. Plus, the boomers will retire eventually.
 
I'd say dental school is still worth it at 400k -500k. A 500,000 investment and a 200,000 salary is a 40% a year return. Where else can you get that kind of return on your money. It would still be worth it if dental school was $1,000,000. Also what other career can you graduate from school and easily make 200,000 first year. Medical school you have to do a low paying residency for 4 years.
 
I'd say dental school is still worth it at 400k -500k. A 500,000 investment and a 200,000 salary is a 40% a year return. Where else can you get that kind of return on your money. It would still be worth it if dental school was $1,000,000. Also what other career can you graduate from school and easily make 200,000 first year. Medical school you have to do a low paying residency for 4 years.
Strong first post!

Easily make $200,000 right out of school? Still worth even $1,000,000? Keep dreaming predents!

Big Hoss
 
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