Is it wrong to pretend you're interested in a specialty...

[kdburton]

---

Members don't see this ad.

...if you think it will get you a better grade on their rotation? I have several friends who are stellar students and have rocked all of third year so far, but I know only 2 people who have gotten honors in psychiatry. At least one of those two is actually interested in psych and made that apparent. The others all scored >90 raw on the shelf and in had been performing at honors level clinically in every other rotation, but got high-satisfactory in psych clinically. I realize that psych is a "different" kind of specialty than medicine, surgery, etc, but I just can't help but wonder if the clinical grade had something to do with them not outwardly expressing their interest in going into psychiatry. Now I have no interest in psychiatry, but clearly I'd like to get an H in as many rotations as I can. If it seems as though the clerkship director/attendings are grading based on our specialty of interst (or lack there of) is it really that wrong for us to pretend we want to be a psychiatrist to play the game too? I mean I've always thought it would be cool to be a forensic psychiatrist in the FBI, so I guess I could play that card 😀

 

[md2010sgu]

Hey man... we are all guilty of "pretending" to like a specialty as a 3rd year. It's kind of hard not to when you don't really know what you REALLY like. I think it is important NOT to kiss butts though and brown nose your way to a honors pass. I never brown nosed anyone, and refuse too... what did I get in return... respect from attendings for taking responsibility and honors passes for sincerely showing interest in my rotations. Hope this helps! Don't feel bad...

 

[lipomas]

You can be interested in a specialty even if you have no intention of going into it. I got honors in surgery my third year, and I had no intention of going into surgery and told people that when asked. But what I did say was that I wanted to learn as much as possible and knowing as much as I could would help my future career.

If you pretend to like a specialty just to get a good grade it probably isn't going to have much success. But yes, honesty will always be appreciated. Unless of course you hate a specialty and want nothing more than to be done with the rotation. Then you might want to temper that. But if you say you are interested but your actions say otherwise that makes you look even worse.

 

[kdburton]

Hey man... we are all guilty of "pretending" to like a specialty as a 3rd year. It's kind of hard not to when you don't really know what you REALLY like. I think it is important NOT to kiss butts though and brown nose your way to a honors pass. I never brown nosed anyone, and refuse too... what did I get in return... respect from attendings for taking responsibility and honors passes for sincerely showing interest in my rotations. Hope this helps! Don't feel bad...

Well I've always expressed interestest in what I'm doing on rotations which helps in the end, but what I'm talking about is whether or not its okay to say "Yeah I think I really want to do psychiatry! Yay psychiatry!" because that appears to be what tipped the scales for a couple people I know - but they're actuallly interested in psych. The others who have been honors students throughout did their usual hard work and showed interest in what they were doing, but either didn't say they wanted to do psych or in at least one case said they wanted to do X specialty that wasn't psych and they ended up getting high-satisfactory. So what I'm wondering is how "wrong" is it for me to pretend I actually want to be a psychiatrist if I think its going to get me a better grade? If thats the way they're grading people then clearly its unfair, so it would make me feel less guilty about lying about wanting to do psych in the first place haha

 

[lipomas]

If they truly are grading people like that then I wouldn't feel guilty about lying either. But I suspect they are not grading people like that. The people interested in psych probably show more interest and do a better job and all that stuff. It isn't because they express an interest in being a future colleague. There is probably more of a chance that they would grade you down for lying about your interest than they would grade you up just because you're interested.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Well, let me put it this way.

I told my FP and OB doc I did not plan to go into their respective fields, but I still showed interest and worked my tootie off .... got Bs on the eval (A's overall due to shelf exams).

I told the GS and Psych preceptors I want to go into their respective fields .... got As on the eval.

So yes, I will continue to lie and I will continue to show enthusiasm and interest as I do on any other rotation .... if people play the game, I sure as hell am not gonna sit in the dug out and watch while my grades suffer due to subjective BS.

 

[tacrum43]

It does seem that expressing interest in the clerkship that you're on will get you a better grade and/or respect (the look a bunch of surgeons gave me in the OR when I said I wanted to do Geriatrics was telling). If you're unsure or deciding between fields that's one thing, but I know I slept better at night by not intentionally misleading about my career goals even if it cost me the Honors grade.

Unfortunately the rotation where I really "wasn't sure yet" was Medicine since I took it early. 🙄

 

[Deferoxamine]

P.S. Residents and attendings are adults, they've been around the block many times, they've seen medical students come and go, and they've heard every line in the book. And they sure as hell know a liar when they see one.

Being a smiling, enthusiastic, hardworking member of the team, no matter what your specialty plans are, seems to go way further than a 3-second answer to "What do you want to be when you grow up?"

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Just because they've heard it before, doesn't mean they still don't like hearing it. You just have to back it up with your actions and demeanor.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Is it wrong to act enthusiastic and interested, and even give a vague/open-ended answer when asked where your interests lie? No.

Is it wrong to shout from the mountaintops that you are going to be a future _______ and schedule meetings with the course director for advice about going into that field (like some of my classmates did on multiple rotations)? Yes.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Is it wrong to act enthusiastic and interested, and even give a vague/open-ended answer when asked where your interests lie? No.

Is it wrong to shout from the mountaintops that you are going to be a future _______ and schedule meetings with the course director for advice about going into that field (like some of my classmates did on multiple rotations)? Yes.

now THAT is over-doing it!

 

[ucsfstudents]

People are biased so you just have to be careful.

 

[EBI831]

9 months into 3rd year, I can say that I highly doubt that you will not be denied honors in medicine for saying you are interested in surgery and vice versa. If you are a hardworking student with a great personality and are willing to learn, most residents and attendings will not downgrade you. however, there are some attendings that regardless of what you do--even if you say you want to go into the field--will not get along with you for some reason and no matter how great you are, give you less than honors. Don't lie...why not just going into everything saying (which is actually true) that no matter what you choose to go into in the end, you can learn a lot from all rotations for consults etc. Also, if you lie and say you want a specialty, they sometimes expect you to perform better and know more and be on your game 24-7 as it's sort of an audition. Also, the residents may be harsher on you because they are judging you like a Sub-I to see if you would fit in with them.
PS: I highly doubt that only 2 people have gotten honors in psych at any school. I believe you just dont know the rest. Maybe your friends like a lot of med students approached psych like a vacation/blow off/less important rotation and got burned.

 

[kdburton]

9 months into 3rd year, I can say that I highly doubt that you will not be denied honors in medicine for saying you are interested in surgery and vice versa. If you are a hardworking student with a great personality and are willing to learn, most residents and attendings will not downgrade you. however, there are some attendings that regardless of what you do--even if you say you want to go into the field--will not get along with you for some reason and no matter how great you are, give you less than honors. Don't lie...why not just going into everything saying (which is actually true) that no matter what you choose to go into in the end, you can learn a lot from all rotations for consults etc. Also, if you lie and say you want a specialty, they sometimes expect you to perform better and know more and be on your game 24-7 as it's sort of an audition. Also, the residents may be harsher on you because they are judging you like a Sub-I to see if you would fit in with them.
PS: I highly doubt that only 2 people have gotten honors in psych at any school. I believe you just dont know the rest. Maybe your friends like a lot of med students approached psych like a vacation/blow off/less important rotation and got burned.

I'm sure that there are more than two as well. I'm just saying that out of a haldful of my friends who have gotten honors in every other 3rd year rotation (and all of which scored >90 raw on the psych shelf) only one I know of for sure got an H in psych. They didn't slack off either, because junior AOA was on the line for all of them.

 

[njbmd]

...if you think it will get you a better grade on their rotation? I have several friends who are stellar students and have rocked all of third year so far, but I know only 2 people who have gotten honors in psychiatry. At least one of those two is actually interested in psych and made that apparent. The others all scored >90 raw on the shelf and in had been performing at honors level clinically in every other rotation, but got high-satisfactory in psych clinically. I realize that psych is a "different" kind of specialty than medicine, surgery, etc, but I just can't help but wonder if the clinical grade had something to do with them not outwardly expressing their interest in going into psychiatry. Now I have no interest in psychiatry, but clearly I'd like to get an H in as many rotations as I can. If it seems as though the clerkship director/attendings are grading based on our specialty of interst (or lack there of) is it really that wrong for us to pretend we want to be a psychiatrist to play the game too? I mean I've always thought it would be cool to be a forensic psychiatrist in the FBI, so I guess I could play that card 😀

I had zero interest in psychiatry when I did the rotation (my second clerkship of third year). With any specialty, I approached it with the mindset that I would master the clerkship material so that I would be a better physician. I actually didn't have to "fake" anything and wound up with Honors in psychiatry when a couple of people who were actually interested in Psych ended up with a Pass.

Try to be interested in what you can learn that would make you a better _____________(insert specialty of interest). If you are interested in medicine, perhaps you might ask questions that deal with psychiatric illnesses that are secondary to medical conditions or how to manage psychotic symptoms in a patient with pheochromocytoma that you are trying to control until you can get the person into surgery. In short, rather than "faking it", try grabbing for every morsel of knowledge that you can no matter what you are going into.

You get one shot at not "screwing up" medical school. You also get one shot at being a strong medical student. This doesn't take "faking" anything but a sincere interest in taking advantage of every learning opportunity that comes your way.

 

[Jamers]

...if you think it will get you a better grade on their rotation? I have several friends who are stellar students and have rocked all of third year so far, but I know only 2 people who have gotten honors in psychiatry. At least one of those two is actually interested in psych and made that apparent. The others all scored >90 raw on the shelf and in had been performing at honors level clinically in every other rotation, but got high-satisfactory in psych clinically. I realize that psych is a "different" kind of specialty than medicine, surgery, etc, but I just can't help but wonder if the clinical grade had something to do with them not outwardly expressing their interest in going into psychiatry. Now I have no interest in psychiatry, but clearly I'd like to get an H in as many rotations as I can. If it seems as though the clerkship director/attendings are grading based on our specialty of interst (or lack there of) is it really that wrong for us to pretend we want to be a psychiatrist to play the game too? I mean I've always thought it would be cool to be a forensic psychiatrist in the FBI, so I guess I could play that card 😀

It is always best to act interested in whatever rotation you are on. You don't have to come out and lie about it but just saying, "oh, I don't know, I like psych though" can go a long way. Here is a thread I started last year after I made the mistake of telling an attending I was going into another field: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/sho...ghlight=attendinghatesyoubecauseoffuturefield

Trust me, those were the worst four weeks of my life and I still feel uneasy around cardiologists to this day.

 

[RisingSun]

If you have to lie about your interest in a field in order to get honors, maybe you are not doing as well clinically as you think.

 

[kdburton]

If you have to lie about your interest in a field in order to get honors, maybe you are not doing as well clinically as you think.

I've gotten honors in medicine, peds, and OB after telling everyone I want to go into a surgical field. Clearly I'm doing just fine clinically. You're missing the point of this thread.

 

[RisingSun]

I've gotten honors in medicine, peds, and OB after telling everyone I want to go into a surgical field. Clearly I'm doing just fine clinically. You're missing the point of this thread.

I'm not speaking to you in particular, just saying that in general, if you feel that you need to "fake" interest in order to get a good grade clinically then you are probably missing things that you could be doing to improve clinically and make a good (or better) impression on your preceptors.

 

[QofQuimica]

It is ridiculous to try to learn anything from the supposed experience of your friends. First, people lie about their grades. Second, you weren't there during their rotations, and you don't know what really happened.

Back up a minute and start over. If you go into your rotation with this attitude of having no interest in psych but just wanting an honors, you're missing the whole point of doing the rotation. No one is out to torture you--psych is applicable to all other specialties, including surgery. I found that out my first week on surgery, when a delirious post-op patient tried to physically attack me without any provocation beyond me asking permission to ausculate her abdomen. Fortunately I ducked quickly enough, because otherwise she'd probably have knocked me out cold.

My feeling is that pretty much every specialty connects with every other specialty in some way. If you think about how psych is useful from a surgery perspective, you won't have to fake interest, and you will be able to ask good questions and otherwise perform at an honors level.

 

[kdburton]

It is ridiculous to try to learn anything from the supposed experience of your friends. First, people lie about their grades. Second, you weren't there during their rotations, and you don't know what really happened.

This is true. But I know that the the one guy got honors and I have a hard time believing that the few people who said they got high-satisfactory were lying about getting that as their grade. And, true, I dont' knwo what happened, but I do know that they are all excellent students and had gotten all honors during MS3 up until psych (and as I said in a previous response they all had junior AOA on the line if they didn't get all honors thus far in third year)

Back up a minute and start over. If you go into your rotation with this attitude of having no interest in psych but just wanting an honors, you're missing the whole point of doing the rotation. No one is out to torture you--psych is applicable to all other specialties, including surgery. I found that out my first week on surgery, when a delirious post-op patient tried to physically attack me without any provocation beyond me asking permission to ausculate her abdomen. Fortunately I ducked quickly enough, because otherwise she'd probably have knocked me out cold.

The thing is that I'm not going into any rotaiton with an attitude of having no interest. As a matter of fact I try to be as interested as possible even if I'm 99.9% sure I don't want to do that for the rest of my life. So far this has worked out, but several students I've talked to at my school have brought up this same concern that I've brought up in this thread. While its nice to think that an attendings evaluation of a student doesn't have anything to do with their future career goals I'm afraid I don't believe that is always the case. Just think of the times you've heard specialty-bashing by the attendings and residents on your rotations -- its not that much different when you think of it. Its bound to happen in some cases.

My feeling is that pretty much every specialty connects with every other specialty in some way. If you think about how psych is useful from a surgery perspective, you won't have to fake interest, and you will be able to ask good questions and otherwise perform at an honors level.

Its possible that I could somehow tie surgery into the conversation on certain consults and whatnot (we've had to get psych to consult on several surgery patients over the course of the last month), but I'm sure there won't be too many of these occasions and in the end I may not end up on a consult service at all. Anyways the question still stands... If [hypothetically at least] a student's clinical evaluation is affected by their future specialty choice then is it really wrong for them to lie about what they want to go into?

 

[QofQuimica]

If [hypothetically at least] a student's clinical evaluation is affected by their future specialty choice then is it really wrong for them to lie about what they want to go into?

If [hypothetically at least] you are ok with being a liar, then I guess there's no issue here. But I'm guessing that you're probably not ok with it, or you wouldn't have posted this thread. 😉

 

[starkcrazy]

The thing is that I'm not going into any rotaiton with an attitude of having no interest. As a matter of fact I try to be as interested as possible even if I'm 99.9% sure I don't want to do that for the rest of my life. So far this has worked out, but several students I've talked to at my school have brought up this same concern that I've brought up in this thread. While its nice to think that an attendings evaluation of a student doesn't have anything to do with their future career goals I'm afraid I don't believe that is always the case. Just think of the times you've heard specialty-bashing by the attendings and residents on your rotations -- its not that much different when you think of it. Its bound to happen in some cases.

it's unfair to grade someone based on whether they wanna go into your speciality or not... obviously. these physicans, in my opinion, deserve to be lied to. play the game playa.

 

[Aphasic]

You should always be motivated and enthusiastic, if you're bored out of your mind, feign interest. But I think if you show motivation to improve and work hard you could do well regardless of what you tell them you want to go into (I've always been honest about my specialty choice, but I don't always tell them that clinic makes me want to stab myself in the eye).

 

[illegallysmooth]

it's unfair to grade someone based on whether they wanna go into your speciality or not... obviously. these physicans, in my opinion, deserve to be lied to. play the game playa.

There's a psychological component to this, too. Looking at a medical student who basically wants to be you, I think you might be more inclined to relate or empathize, leading to a grade disparity, even if not intentional.

 

[Neuronix]

Generally, I think it benefits you to say "I'm not sure what I want to do" or say it's between a few specialties including the one you're rotating on. People really do treat you differently and pay more attention to you if they think you are or may be heading into their field. I think this does often translate into a better grade, at least at my school, where competition for grades is often extreme and an A shelf grade can't bring you up to an A overall grade if your evaluations aren't an A.