Is lifestyle alone a good enough reason to rule out general surgery?

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So am I going to need a good wall to punch as an anesthesia residents also? At my institution surgeons rarely interact with the anesthesia resident directly. The gas attendings deal with the gas residents and the surgery attendings deal with the surgery residents. The two attendings deal with eachother. Maybe my institution is an anomaly.

Get a wii, make mii's that look like peoples who make you mad, and beat them up in wii boxing. Made me feel better in dental school.

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So if both anesthesia residents and surgery residents interact with the same malignant personalities, what seems to make surgery residents so miserable and in general, anesthesia residents very happy? They are both interacting with surgeons, they are both in the OR, the length of training is comparable 4 years (although realistically 5 years as many anesthesia residents are now doing fellowships) vs 5 years. Is it the amount of hours spent at the hospital? Is it the level of responsibility? Is it the rounding? Is it the clinic?

I don't mean to say that all anesthesia residents are happier than general surgery residents as I have no way to know that this is true. I am simply saying that from my observations at my institution, this seems to be the case. I guess I'm trying to understand what makes an anesthesia residency so much more bearable than a surgery one.
I'm not sure how you would know, short of polling the residents, why there is a perceived difference in happiness between the anesthesia and surgery residents at your school. It could be:

- difference in work hours
- baseline difference in personality and ability to handle stress
- the length of training (its not really 4 yrs vs 5, since the majority of surgical residents do fellowships and many also spend time in the lab, so its more like 4-5 vs 7-9)
- enjoyment of other aspects of training
- observational bias (you and the rest of SDN think most/all surgeons are jackasses so expect that behavior)

You wonder why the anesthesia residents tolerate being "pooped" on by the surgery attendings more than the surgical residents? I'd venture that the latter are more worried about the "poop" making a significant difference in their evaluations, potential future career etc. The anesthesia residents know that, except in the most extreme cases, the surgery attending has little to no impact on their residency evaluations and future career. Their "poop" doesn't stink as much as that thrown at the surgery residents.
 
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This is why it's actually pretty rare for a sub-I to truly impress us. You have to come across smart, but unassuming and cognizant of your place on the totem pole. You have to be liked by everyone. You have to be on top of your game. You have to find little ways to make the team as a whole function smoothly, so that next month they will look at their new sub-I and say "why aren't you as good as Kaustikos?"

This is the exact reason I would never try to impress surgical residents.

Wasted effort.

I would instead recommend on learning the medicine well, serving your patients and working hard. Impressing surgical superiors can be an exercise in frustration if you're paired with the wrong people.

Setting the goal to be exceptional for your patients (in knowledge base / skill) instead of impressing the staff is the best way to go. I've worked with people who expect your knowledge level to be 2-4 years advanced, who expect nonstop 13 hrs a day of effort with no breaks and won't say thank you for anything. Winning these people over is like trying to please a spoiled American teenager with a trust fund.
 
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As a general surgery sub-I, you show people how awesome you are by how much s**t you can shovel for them so that they don't have to.

Talk to that discharge coordinator for them
Go bug the scheduler in radiology about getting the upper GI done in the morning instead of the afternoon
When the vitals for this shift haven't been recorded, track down the RN and get her to show you her handwritten records that she hasn't had time to type up yet
Make sure you know exactly how the chief likes his list printed (and how he likes his coffee to go along with it...only partially kidding)
Know every lab and vital on every patient so that when someone asks what the phos level was yesterday, you don't have to go fumbling around in the EMR for two minutes
etc.
etc.

And on top of that you need to know every bit of relevant anatomy and clinical knowledge of surgery.

As DV said...it's exhausting. And it's an uphill battle because you're working in a foreign environment to you at a new hospital with small but meaningful cultural differences from your own program.

This is why it's actually pretty rare for a sub-I to truly impress us. You have to come across smart, but unassuming and cognizant of your place on the totem pole. You have to be liked by everyone. You have to be on top of your game. You have to find little ways to make the team as a whole function smoothly, so that next month they will look at their new sub-I and say "why aren't you as good as Kaustikos?"
+1
 

Haha.

But seriously, trying to meet ridiculous expectations will make people miserable.

The general surgery residents at our hospital are the most miserable group of people there because of this attitude "I'm not impressed unless you can shovel an incredible amount of $h@t so the residents don't have to, predict whimsical and fickle desires, know every lab value on a patient from days before even though it's right on 100 computers all around you (what was his phos level last Thursday!!!??? 2.0 sir! Anything else boss?). Make sure you know every residents unique desires on how they want things laid out, and on top of that you need to know every bit of relevant anatomy and clinical knowledge of surgery (being in the top 70/80% of medical students wouldn't fit this - you need to probably be top 5% - i.e. 260+ Step 1). Next, be smart but unassuming. Make sure everyone likes you, be on top of your game for every second of the day, and hope that you make the person / slave of the next month look bad because you were so good. Oh, and you're expected to do all this - doing it garners no appreciation or gratitude - you can only meet expectations which warrants no thanks or fail, which is met with disgust.

WTF

What a miserable miserable environment. Seriously, the most self-centered and miserable people in my hospital were the gen surg residents. I have no issues with general surgery in general but our department was terrible. In stark contrast, the surgical subspecialties residents learned people skills and have some element of empathy / camaraderie.

It's such a terrible environment. I know powerful people who treat their secretaries better, their maids better. I've seen people running entire departments give more respect to a janitorial staff. It's ridiculous and incredibly hard to understand why the environment is so terribly $h!tty. I can't understand it and I think some of the worst weeks of my life were spending 12+ hrs a day with these miserable people alongside their "I'm not impressed" attitude.

I've worked with resident who take the attitude to medical students, "Hey, I'm here to serve you and make sure you get a lot out of this shift and learn as much as possible. Let me know if I can help you or if I can teach you anything."

What a difference. Cooperation, teamwork, good attitudes.

It's funny that some medical students are paying 70k per year to get $h!t on by miserable people.

I'm glad that many departments aren't like this.
 
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To those who haven't seen what I have to use daily, this is the POS I have to write progress notes with. Oh Meditech Magic, how I hate you.
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My post was directed to a student interested in general surgery, asking how to excel on a general surgery away rotation.

You clearly weren't the target audience

True.

We lost a medical student to suicide during my 4 years. I can't help but think it was because of the negative environment with impossible expectations. So I'm probably oversensitive. I guess we all (or most of us) just live through it and move on.
 
General surgery did seem to have the ****tiest residents and attendings out of all of my rotations. For some reason the biggest dingus residents seemed to like me though. Not that I impressed them. I had pestana in my back pocket at all times and literally made it my goal to stay out of the way. Contrary to what southernim said, being as invisible as possible but still doing my job put me in everyone's good book. I think it's because if you're almost completely invisible then you cannot **** something up. Meanwhile, a student who was going into gen surg cried on one of my rotation after getting bitched out by this dingus dude resident lol.

I always thought it was curious that the subspecialties were very laid back and funner to work with. Why does gen surg have to be filled with jerks? It doesn't make much sense to me.
 
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I heard a cocky attitude is quite appealing. Please confirm if it's true.
 
General surgery did seem to have the ****tiest residents and attendings out of all of my rotations. For some reason the biggest dingus residents seemed to like me though. Not that I impressed them. I had pestana in my back pocket at all times and literally made it my goal to stay out of the way. Contrary to what southernim said, being as invisible as possible but still doing my job put me in everyone's good book. I think it's because if you're almost completely invisible then you cannot **** something up. Meanwhile, a student who was going into gen surg cried on one of my rotation after getting bitched out by this dingus dude resident lol.

I always thought it was curious that the subspecialties were very laid back and funner to work with. Why does gen surg have to be filled with jerks? It doesn't make much sense to me.
I will take a General Surgery resident who is straightforward, over a passive-aggressive, harpie OB-Gyn resident anyday. With General Surgeons you know exactly how they feel as they will not mask their feelings towards you.
 
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True.

We lost a medical student to suicide during my 4 years.
I can't help but think it was because of the negative environment with impossible expectations. So I'm probably oversensitive. I guess we all (or most of us) just live through it and move on.
Bc of his General Surgery rotation?
 
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I will take a General Surgery resident who is straightforward, over a passive-aggressive, harpie OB-Gyn resident anyday. With General Surgeons you know exactly how they feel as they will not mask their feelings towards you.

Not always true. Plenty of back-stabbing general surgery residents out there. At my school, the OB/Gyn residents are much nicer and straight forward than some of the women general surgery residents. I have never heard other residents talk more s*#% behind fellow residents, attendings, and students backs than some of the women general surgery residents. I may have a particularly benign OB/Gyn program though.
 
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Not always true. Plenty of back-stabbing general surgery residents out there. At my school, the OB/Gyn residents are much nicer and straight forward than some of the women general surgery residents. I have never heard other residents talk more s*#% behind fellow residents, attendings, and students backs than some of the women general surgery residents. I may have a particularly benign OB/Gyn program though.

I was mainly referring to male General Surgery residents as being straightforward. There were very few females in General Surgery. I think what you're referring to is more a female trait in general.
 
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Agree. If we compare male gen surg residents to male OB/Gyn residents, they have been pretty similar. Although, the sample size is very small for OB/Gyn as there are very few male residents that I know in this specialty.
 
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Agree. If we compare male gen surg residents to male OB/Gyn residents, they have been pretty similar although the sample size is very small for OB/Gyn as there are very few male residents that I know in this specialty.
Male OB-Gyn attendings/residents are awesome.
 
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Haha.

But seriously, trying to meet ridiculous expectations will make people miserable.

The general surgery residents at our hospital are the most miserable group of people there because of this attitude "I'm not impressed unless you can shovel an incredible amount of $h@t so the residents don't have to, predict whimsical and fickle desires, know every lab value on a patient from days before even though it's right on 100 computers all around you (what was his phos level last Thursday!!!??? 2.0 sir! Anything else boss?). Make sure you know every residents unique desires on how they want things laid out, and on top of that you need to know every bit of relevant anatomy and clinical knowledge of surgery (being in the top 70/80% of medical students wouldn't fit this - you need to probably be top 5% - i.e. 260+ Step 1). Next, be smart but unassuming. Make sure everyone likes you, be on top of your game for every second of the day, and hope that you make the person / slave of the next month look bad because you were so good. Oh, and you're expected to do all this - doing it garners no appreciation or gratitude - you can only meet expectations which warrants no thanks or fail, which is met with disgust.

WTF

What a miserable miserable environment. Seriously, the most self-centered and miserable people in my hospital were the gen surg residents. I have no issues with general surgery in general but our department was terrible. In stark contrast, the surgical subspecialties residents learned people skills and have some element of empathy / camaraderie.

It's such a terrible environment. I know powerful people who treat their secretaries better, their maids better. I've seen people running entire departments give more respect to a janitorial staff. It's ridiculous and incredibly hard to understand why the environment is so terribly $h!tty. I can't understand it and I think some of the worst weeks of my life were spending 12+ hrs a day with these miserable people alongside their "I'm not impressed" attitude.

I've worked with resident who take the attitude to medical students, "Hey, I'm here to serve you and make sure you get a lot out of this shift and learn as much as possible. Let me know if I can help you or if I can teach you anything."

What a difference. Cooperation, teamwork, good attitudes.

It's funny that some medical students are paying 70k per year to get $h!t on by miserable people.

I'm glad that many departments aren't like this.

Wow, I feel so much better now after reading this post?! ><
 
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Again...my post was directed at a student doing an away rotation at a program that sounded pretty harsh/malignant. You might be able to get away with being a wallflower in third year, especially if you're clearly not going into surgery. Not the case if you are doing an away rotation and trying to secure a LOR and/or improve your residency chances.
Which usually nets you a "Pass" at most - which doesn't speak too highly on one's clinical performance.
 
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Again...my post was directed at a student doing an away rotation at a program that sounded pretty harsh/malignant. You might be able to get away with being a wallflower in third year, especially if you're clearly not going into surgery. Not the case if you are doing an away rotation and trying to secure a LOR and/or improve your residency chances.

I wasnt posting in response to you. Just posting a personal experience in a thread I know nothing about.
 
Which usually nets you a "Pass" at most - which doesn't speak too highly on one's clinical performance.

I actually honored by doing that for this 1 particular rotation, idk why. I kinda read my residents and they just wanted me to get the **** out of the way so I just did my basic duties and stayed as out of the loop as possible otherwise. It can be a crapshoot- honoring that is. Also my school recognizes that our program is a little malignant so for the surgery rotation only shelf scores very much outweigh evals so you can honor w average to above average (HP range) evals.
 
Well you said "contrary to what southernim said" so it seemed like a response to me...
I meant that mainly like here's my one experience that went against what you should really do but I didnt mean it as advice for succeeding. If I was giving advice Id say the same **** youre saying. Whatever it doesnt mattwr. I agree with you lol
 
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