Is medical school worth it?

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tennischamp822

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I think that is geared towards ALL majors as an average. Some degrees just happen to be worth more than others. Compare a political science degree (not hating, I have one) to a chemical engineering or electrical engineering or computer science degree.

If your degree is in liberal arts, I think it's a safe bet you will most likely work in a non-profit, or some other kind of non-technical administrative job, probably making $30k-40k/year starting out. You may luck out and do a little bit better. I have two older sisters, both working in contracts now, with unrelated degrees (one with a BA in mass communication, one with a bachelor of music), and doing quite well.. but it took 8-10 years of working and moving up the ladder for both of them to break six figures (neither had student loans).

Engineers typically do better than people with liberal arts backgrounds.

On the whole I think it's worth it, assuming you graduate, and complete a residency. If you drop out or do not become BC/BE, then no.. it's not worth it.
 
It's not worth it for certain specialties, which is the real issue here.

If you want to do family med, why not just be a PA or NP? Less school, costs less, and you'll get paid similarly.

There are no incentives to go into primary care right now and that's why we're seeing the shortage that we're seeing.
 
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Student A spends 4 years doing a residency while his loans accumulate interest (around 40,000).

Although my debt will be significantly less than your total (I'm married so we can pay interest while I'm in school, plus my school is inexpensive to begin with), it is my understanding you should be able to pay at LEAST interest in residency.

And of course it's worth it and possible to pay off debts to get your degree, people wouldn't do it if it weren't. (armybound - super point, I totally agree!)

Plus, how many other degrees have a large number of post-degree jobs (aka hospitals) willing to pay off their debts in return for service? None.
 
I can't see myself being anything but a doctor, so yes, it is worth it for me.

I read somewhere that you have to look at it as an investment
 
According to FinAid.org: A good rule of thumb is that your total education debt should be less than your expected starting salary.

I don't think this rule is particularly applicable to high income careers due to their higher disposable income.

Let's say:

Student A borrows 40,000 to attend his state school for undergrad.
Student A borrows 140,000 to attend his state medical school.
Student A spends 4 years doing a residency while his loans accumulate interest (around 40,000)

Total Debt: $220,000
Interest Rate: 6.8%

In this example, if you end up earning less than $220,000 per year, does it make financial sense to go to medical school?

Note: I used conservative numbers for the above example, and the total debt could easily be much higher if private/OOS schools were attended at any point in the process.

The picture is actually grimmer than your calculations represent. Many people fail to take the opportunity costs associated with med school into account.

Is it worth it financially? depends on the individual situation, and then in many cases the financial "win" measured against other careers is not to be had for a long time, medicine is a career of delayed gratification

Personally I don't think 200k+ in loans is worth it for many specialities, but that's just me. And as I said above, this depends on your alternatives.


Yoda's rules for the "cheap" path to med school:

Rule 1. You shouldn't go into debt for undergrad.
Rule 2: Don't go into debt for undergrad.
Rule 3: Go to the cheapest medschool possible.
 
It's not worth it for certain specialties, which is the real issue here.

If you want to do family med, why not just be a PA or NP? Less school, costs less, and you'll get paid similarly.

There are no incentives to go into primary care right now and that's why we're seeing the shortage that we're seeing.

I've been told that educational debt is considered as 'good debt' if there's any such a thing...
RE to the bolded: Sometimes you dont know you want to do family med until your 3rd year of medical school...plus people change their mind ALL THE TIME..
 
I've been told that educational debt is considered as 'good debt' if there's any such a thing...
RE to the bolded: Sometimes you dont know you want to do family med until your 3rd year of medical school...plus people change their mind ALL THE TIME..

I support the idea of student loans being "good debt" when in moderate amounts. There is a such thing as to much good debt though ( home mortgages have been called good debt, but look what happened when people over-did it).
 
I can't see myself being anything but a doctor, so yes, it is worth it for me.

I read somewhere that you have to look at it as an investment
"Investment" doesn't automatically mean "good."

I'd say a wiser investment would be NP than family practice.

Now the other side is that there are good investments. Going to school for 4 years at $20,000/year and then doing 6 years of residency to improve your annual salary from $30,000 to $500,000 is a good investment. Going through the same training to bump your salary from $100,000/year to $140,000/year is obviously not a good investment.
 
According to FinAid.org: A good rule of thumb is that your total education debt should be less than your expected starting salary.

:thumbup: Right, I agree with some of the above, why is this a good rule of thumb?

If you could go 60 million dollars into debt for a career that guaranteed you 50 million dollars per year, what's to stop you? (asuming Uncle Sam will front you that money)

I think, as has been said above, that your website's advice is for 'most people' going into 'most careers'. Medicine is not 'most careers'.
 
If you are speaking on if it's worth it from strictly a financial stand-point, then it is probably not worth it and there are much more efficient ways of making the same money. If you take into effect career prestige, hours worked, amount of schooling, dealing with d-bag patients, and all the other things that go along with the schooling and career, it's still probably not worth it. However, some people will do anything to have that MD behind their name; the DO, DDS, DPT, etc... eh not so much. <-- (sarcasm)
 
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It's not worth it for certain specialties, which is the real issue here.

If you want to do family med, why not just be a PA or NP? Less school, costs less, and you'll get paid similarly.

There are no incentives to go into primary care right now and that's why we're seeing the shortage that we're seeing.

I was reading the family medicine forum and there are many opportunities(non-military) out there for fresh PCP MDs to pay off their debt. Most involve serving in rural/underserved communities in the outlays and some time commitment( 3 years or so). Basically, you can clear your debt doing some of these gigs in as little as 3 years and start building your practice with a clean slate when you are done.

I think more of these programs need to be advertised in medical schools so that more students can be aware and recruited into the field.
 
The only problem I see with medicine is that there is NO WAY to know what a specialty will pay in the future.

An example would be opthamology, which has traditionally been seen as a very lucrative field. While opthamology is still lucrative for the older physicians who own all the practices, the starting salary of an opthamologist is around $125-150,000 in urban areas. That is still a six figure salary, but I feel it is really low considering the debt incurred and time spent in school/residency.

IMHO, If starting salaries can drop so low in opthamology, there is nothing stopping them from dropping in other procedural specialties.

I don't think this is true. The starting salary for an opthamologist I have heard is 200-250K, especially in an urban area. After a couple years, it should easily go up to 300K+. I'm assuming your basing that 125 figure off allied-physicians survey, but I think that is definitely a miscalculation, as it says on that same survey that opthamology salaries rise from 125 to 300+ in 3 years, which seems like a dramatic rise.
 
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Define "worth it". If worth it means living comfortably (far far above the average citizen) for the rest of your life, then yes it will absolutely be worth it. The vast majority of doctors are not drowning in debt from soley their educational loans. That said, this is not a "get rich" career. No one should put in this much work and years of their life just for the compensation alone.. THAT would not be worth it.
 
I think the most lucrative job in healthcare, when you consider salary and years of training is a CRNA, who can bank 200K+ for 50 hour weeks, and in many rural areas they can even practice without an anesthesiologist. You get your RN in Community College, Bridge to a BSN taking online classes (and the hospital pays for much of it), and so you are 22 with basically no debt. You work a year in ICU earning 50,000 a year as a nurse. You then go to CRNA school, and graduate at age 25, little debt, with six fig salaries. More than a PCP makes and without 200,000 debt + 12 years of opportunity costs. Plus you arguably have the most powerful healthcare union (AANA) that is amazing at advancing legislation for practice rights.
 
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It is estimated that you will need an annual salary of at least $303,812.40 to be able to afford to repay this loan. This estimate assumes that 10% of your gross monthly income will be devoted to repaying your student loans. This corresponds to a debt-to-income ratio of 0.7.

This goes back to my first post, the 10% rule is easier to defy when you have a large income.

For example if you make 175k a year you could pay this rate and still have 70k left for after income taxes to spend on living. So that'd be 17% of your pay without killing yourself (obviously lifestyle dependent).
 
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I was reading the family medicine forum and there are many opportunities(non-military) out there for fresh PCP MDs to pay off their debt. Most involve serving in rural/underserved communities in the outlays and some time commitment( 3 years or so). Basically, you can clear your debt doing some of these gigs in as little as 3 years and start building your practice with a clean slate when you are done.

I think more of these programs need to be advertised in medical schools so that more students can be aware and recruited into the field.

My med school does a good deal of ra-raing for the primary care scholarships and the military. Don't know if that's common across all of them or not. I suspect there are other issues at work with getting people into primary care (mid-level encroachment, idea that all they do is refer, pay is still on the low end even if med school bills are paid).

The national health-service corps scholarship is for sure the way to go if you know you're going into primary care off the bat.
 
I hesitate to comment since I don't know much about opthalmology (eyes gross me out, what can I say). But I belive 1. Certain fellowships in optho significantly increase earnings. and 2. There has been a significant correction in the optho job market since the high rolling, early days of LASIK.
 
I hesitate to comment since I don't know much about opthalmology (eyes gross me out, what can I say). But I belive 1. Certain fellowships in optho significantly increase earnings. and 2. There has been a significant correction in the optho job market since the high rolling, early days of LASIK.

this statement is :laugh: :)in light of your avatar photo
 
some one had advised to try and not go into debt in undergrad..is that really possible?

also, i know there is no way i can afford med school and right now im getting help with my parents for undergrad-should i re think a lot of this financial stuff? Im not afraid of debt tho and i dont mind taking out loans...


**also, i thought it was weird for someone to ask if going to medical school was worth it..if you want it for the money, you can find something 'better' to do cause i feel that you clearly have second thoughts and you should really think about how bad you really want it for the 'right' reasons
 
I was reading the family medicine forum and there are many opportunities(non-military) out there for fresh PCP MDs to pay off their debt. Most involve serving in rural/underserved communities in the outlays and some time commitment( 3 years or so). Basically, you can clear your debt doing some of these gigs in as little as 3 years and start building your practice with a clean slate when you are done.

I think more of these programs need to be advertised in medical schools so that more students can be aware and recruited into the field.
There need to be more programs like that, period. Actually I think there should be programs that pay your tuition up front for your commitment to work for them as a PCP. Your world view changes a little once you start tacking on debt, and it may scare some people away from the idea of going into primary care altogether
 
some one had advised to try and not go into debt in undergrad..is that really possible?

I have no undergrad debt.

A couple scholarships + Smart parent who started saving for my college when she was 21 (the year I was born).

Possible, yes.
 
some one had advised to try and not go into debt in undergrad..is that really possible?

Yes. If mommy and daddy are rich, or smart in that they started a college fund for you (which they could only do it they had extra $), if you have a scholarship, or you go to a school that is less expensive, and you work while you attend.

also, i know there is no way i can afford med school and right now im getting help with my parents for undergrad-should i re think a lot of this financial stuff? Im not afraid of debt tho and i dont mind taking out loans...

Banks/credit agencies give med students loans because they know they will get their money back. I heard there was something, my guess is it only applies to govt loans, but if after paying it off for 25 years, you still owe money, the money will be waived and you are done paying off your loan. But I'm not quite sure what kind of loans this applies to though.

If you're really interested, I suggest going to the doc forums and make a poll asking how long it took/ how long they expect to be paying loans. I heard that the 25-year forgiveness thing doesn't kick in very often because loans are paid off before then.
 
I have no undergrad debt.

A couple scholarships + Smart parent who started saving for my college when she was 21 (the year I was born).

Possible, yes.
I also think that students need to be realistic about what kind of school they should go to.

I decided I wanted to go to a small private school, despite my parents not helping me pay for it at all. Result? Nearly $100k in undergrad debt.

My little brother wants to go to a good school as well, and I think he's thinking private. He wants to be a CPA or actuary. I am telling him to go PUBLIC because it is absolutely NOT WORTH the cost of a private education over a public education that costs 50-75% less.
 
If your degree is in liberal arts, I think it's a safe bet you will most likely work in a non-profit, or some other kind of non-technical administrative job, probably making $30k-40k/year starting out. You may luck out and do a little bit better. I have two older sisters, both working in contracts now, with unrelated degrees (one with a BA in mass communication, one with a bachelor of music), and doing quite well.. but it took 8-10 years of working and moving up the ladder for both of them to break six figures (neither had student loans).
That's also how long it takes for a doctor to break six figures. The difference is that the doctor has to go into six figure debt to do it, while in other careers you are making money the whole time.
 
I also think that students need to be realistic about what kind of school they should go to.

I decided I wanted to go to a small private school, despite my parents not helping me pay for it at all. Result? Nearly $100k in undergrad debt.

My little brother wants to go to a good school as well, and I think he's thinking private. He wants to be a CPA or actuary. I am telling him to go PUBLIC because it is absolutely NOT WORTH the cost of a private education over a public education that costs 50-75% less.

VERY true. Agree 100%.

And to whoever said Mom and Dad had to be rich or start a college fund early, requiring them to have "extra money" that's not entirely true.

My mom was a single mom, working as an RN and paying for day care. ALMOST anyone can start a college fund for their kids, even if it's just with a little money it will add up over 18 years.

However, we're mostly past that stage of asking our parents to start a college fund, lol....so if they didn't and you don't apply for a lot of scholarships and get some....then yes, rich parents would be the answer.
 
VERY true. Agree 100%.

And to whoever said Mom and Dad had to be rich or start a college fund early, requiring them to have "extra money" that's not entirely true.

My mom was a single mom, working as an RN and paying for day care. ALMOST anyone can start a college fund for their kids, even if it's just with a little money it will add up over 18 years.

However, we're mostly past that stage of asking our parents to start a college fund, lol....so if they didn't and you don't apply for a lot of scholarships and get some....then yes, rich parents would be the answer.

In Texas, sure. Single mom in New York City ? Maybe not. I get the point you were trying to make though.....
 
According to FinAid.org: A good rule of thumb is that your total education debt should be less than your expected starting salary.

Let's say:

Student A borrows 40,000 to attend his state school for undergrad.
Student A borrows 140,000 to attend his state medical school.
Student A spends 4 years doing a residency while his loans accumulate interest (around 40,000)

Total Debt: $220,000
Interest Rate: 6.8%

In this example, if you end up earning less than $220,000 per year, does it make financial sense to go to medical school?

Note: I used conservative numbers for the above example, and the total debt could easily be much higher if private/OOS schools were attended at any point in the process.

First of all, I totally agree with you that its a big debt once you come out, its outrageous. However, why not work right now or during undergraduate, or even graduate and save up money just to pay off the loans, maybe take a year break just to ease up the debt, thats what i am planning to do. also there are plenty of scholorships for you to apply to. its not that bad if you look at it, you might end up getting 100k yearly anyways, so overall I think it would be worth it.
 
Very true....exactly why I said ALMOST.

Haha. Texas is a great state (besides the politics of course :D). I'll be in Austin this weekend. It is a beautiful city. I wish they had a med school. It would have been my top choice.
 
Haha. Texas is a great state (besides the politics of course :D). I'll be in Austin this weekend. It is a beautiful city. I wish they had a med school. It would have been my top choice.

apply to UTMB in galveston and you can have a strong shot at doing ALL of your third and fourth year in austin if you so desire
 
First of all, I totally agree with you that its a big debt once you come out, its outrageous. However, why not work right now or during undergraduate, or even graduate and save up money just to pay off the loans, maybe take a year break just to ease up the debt, thats what i am planning to do. also there are plenty of scholorships for you to apply to. its not that bad if you look at it, you might end up getting 100k yearly anyways, so overall I think it would be worth it.

i don't know if the year break is the best idea to ease up the debt

first, when med school calculates your need based aid, they will see you made a lot of money in the previous year while you were working full time which would result in you getting less aid

second, you're sacrificing one year of attending salary in the future for a 35 - 45k salary right now

i don't think a break just to save up to pay down debt is economically sound
 
apply to UTMB in galveston and you can have a strong shot at doing ALL of your third and fourth year in austin if you so desire

A&M has a 3rd and 4th year campus in North Austin (Round Rock).
 
Engineers typically do better than people with liberal arts backgrounds.

Thats an understatement

charttopearningdegrees.jpg
 
FYI schools don't matter that much as long as your school is DECENT.

I graduated from UW as a Chemical Engineer and I am equal or even above some of the engineers from Berkeley / Stanford / Harvard at my company. Once you get your foot in the door of a company, nobody gives a **** where you come from. Its all about your performance.
 
My friend got a job as an electrical engineer and loves it. He's making a very solid income... I took engineering and liked it too.
 
No it doesn't worth it. Please don't apply and save me a seat instead.
 
I just ran the calculations using the website for two different scenarios (10 year vs. 30 year)

Loan Term: 10 years

Loan Balance: $220,000.00
Loan Interest Rate: 6.80%

Monthly Loan Payment: $2,531.77
Number of Payments: 120

Cumulative Payments: $303,811.93
Total Interest Paid: $83,811.93

It is estimated that you will need an annual salary of at least $303,812.40 to be able to afford to repay this loan. This estimate assumes that 10% of your gross monthly income will be devoted to repaying your student loans. This corresponds to a debt-to-income ratio of 0.7.



Is it just me or is the above analysis completely off? Why would you need at least a $300,000 annual income in order pay off a loan which requires only $30,000 annual payment. You could earn anything above $30,000 salary and still pay off that loan in the same amount of time. Any income you earn above $30,000 annually, would be what you would use toward whatever else you have going on.

Am I right? .. How bad is debt if you just have to sacrifice $30,000 of your annual salary. If you earned $200,000 a year, you would instead be earning 170,000. Still NOT BAD ..at all..
 
Is it just me or is the above analysis completely off? Why would you need at least a $300,000 annual income in order pay off a loan which requires only $30,000 annual payment. You could earn anything above $30,000 salary and still pay off that loan in the same amount of time. Any income you earn above $30,000 annually, would be what you would use toward whatever else you have going on.

Am I right? .. How bad is debt if you just have to sacrifice $30,000 of your annual salary. If you earned $200,000 a year, you would instead be earning 170,000. Still NOT BAD ..at all..
Well, you need to factor in tax as well.

But your general gist is right; there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to afford $30,000/year when you're making that much money.
 
Don't go into medicine for the money...
 
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